You are either not logged in or not registered with our community. Click here to register.
 
December 03, 2016, 07:55:15 PM

Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?

Login with username, password and session length

Click here if you are having problems.
Default Wide Screen Beige Lilac Rainbow Black & Blue October Send us your theme!

Hark!  The Herald!
Holiday Issue 2016

Wiki Blogs Dicebot

Author Topic: This thread is about Pathfinder RPG!  (Read 12427 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline IStateYourName

Re: This thread is about Pathfinder RPG!
« Reply #125 on: December 30, 2013, 10:48:34 PM »
If you're talking about 3.5, a 6th level fighter is already a Hercules-esque superhuman, if one pays attention to skills and what they can accomplish by certain skill checks - people do the math on stuff like this for fun (?), and a 5th-level fighter trained in Jump would easily meet or exceed the Olympic world record for long jump, for one example. By 10th level, you're the demigod-like living legend.

I was thinking in terms of 1E and 2E...it's that very conflation with X-Men and other comics in 3.x and 4 you wrote of that is one of the primary reasons I play 1E/2E.

Offline TheGlyphstone

Re: This thread is about Pathfinder RPG!
« Reply #126 on: December 30, 2013, 10:58:58 PM »
I was thinking in terms of 1E and 2E...it's that very conflation with X-Men and other comics in 3.x and 4 you wrote of that is one of the primary reasons I play 1E/2E.

Fair 'nough.

Offline Chris Brady

Re: This thread is about Pathfinder RPG!
« Reply #127 on: December 30, 2013, 11:54:27 PM »
But the fighter at first level is a raw recruit, a greenhorn, very mortal and weak.  Of course, some of how he ends up depends on ability scores--a fighter with an 18 Strength and 16 Constitution is more likely to survive to become a legend than one with 14 Strength and 11 Con.

Actually, a 14 Str Fighter in Red Box and Rules Cyclopedia actually got a bonus to Strength.  I believe it was +2.  But also disagree with a Fighter being a 'raw recruit' at level one.  In AD&D terms, he'd be a 0th Level Fighter.  A 1st level anything is somewhat new, but he's not going to break so easily.  That's what makes him an adventurer and a hero.  Can he take on a Troll?  No.  An Ogre?  Eh, maybe, if he's lucky, and with the help of his friends.  Even then, no sure thing.  But Goblins?  No problem.

Offline chaoslord29

Re: This thread is about Pathfinder RPG!
« Reply #128 on: December 31, 2013, 10:32:27 AM »
Actually, a 14 Str Fighter in Red Box and Rules Cyclopedia actually got a bonus to Strength.  I believe it was +2.  But also disagree with a Fighter being a 'raw recruit' at level one.  In AD&D terms, he'd be a 0th Level Fighter.  A 1st level anything is somewhat new, but he's not going to break so easily.  That's what makes him an adventurer and a hero.  Can he take on a Troll?  No.  An Ogre?  Eh, maybe, if he's lucky, and with the help of his friends.  Even then, no sure thing.  But Goblins?  No problem.

Yeah, a raw recruit (assuming we're talking professional soldier here) is a level one Warrior isn't it? That's why NPC classes exist, to distinguish them from the actual heroes. For town guards and militia, I usually just use Peasants with a weapon proficiency feat. To me, that represents the farmer/cobbler/miller/smith whose just been handed a weapon from the town armory and expected to know what to do. Warriors are NPCs who've seen some time in the drill yard, maybe a skirmish or two (in which they didn't wet themselves and desert).

PCs are supposed to be special, and a level 1 Fighter to me, means that character has just the right combination of raw talent, moxy, and luck to make them a goddamn hero (given the right opportunity). NPC Fighters to me are hardened veterans, mercenaries, and professional bodyguards.

Offline IStateYourName

Re: This thread is about Pathfinder RPG!
« Reply #129 on: December 31, 2013, 11:24:07 AM »
Yeah, a raw recruit (assuming we're talking professional soldier here) is a level one Warrior isn't it? That's why NPC classes exist, to distinguish them from the actual heroes. For town guards and militia, I usually just use Peasants with a weapon proficiency feat. To me, that represents the farmer/cobbler/miller/smith whose just been handed a weapon from the town armory and expected to know what to do. Warriors are NPCs who've seen some time in the drill yard, maybe a skirmish or two (in which they didn't wet themselves and desert).

PCs are supposed to be special, and a level 1 Fighter to me, means that character has just the right combination of raw talent, moxy, and luck to make them a goddamn hero (given the right opportunity). NPC Fighters to me are hardened veterans, mercenaries, and professional bodyguards.

I always interpreted the difference between Level 0 and Level 1 to be who the storyline is based on.  Level 0 are extras (NPC).  Level 1 is the talent (PC).  In objective reality, there might not be that much difference in abilities.  But the story has to focus on someone, to have a hero, and the PC is it.

Offline chaoslord29

Re: This thread is about Pathfinder RPG!
« Reply #130 on: December 31, 2013, 12:07:48 PM »
I always interpreted the difference between Level 0 and Level 1 to be who the storyline is based on.  Level 0 are extras (NPC).  Level 1 is the talent (PC).  In objective reality, there might not be that much difference in abilities.  But the story has to focus on someone, to have a hero, and the PC is it.

I'm confused by what you mean by "Level 0". I've never used that concept in any game I've run, and don't recall it being used in any games I've played. Are you referring to just 'Hit Die', because I think that still counts as Levels in the most basic sense. I mean, anything with hit points has to have at least 1 hit die, and therefore one 'Level' even if it's not in a PC or NPC class. According to the Bestiary, Creature type and sub-type functions as the effective Class for whatever monster you're looking at (or creating/modifying) and the number of it's Hit Die as the effective level.

Are there some rules for character creation starting at 'Level 0' that I don't know about?

Offline TheGlyphstone

Re: This thread is about Pathfinder RPG!
« Reply #131 on: December 31, 2013, 12:11:34 PM »
Didn't AD&D use '0th-level characters' as an NPC designation, because they hadn't invented NPC classes yet?
« Last Edit: December 31, 2013, 12:13:12 PM by TheGlyphstone »

Offline chaoslord29

Re: This thread is about Pathfinder RPG!
« Reply #132 on: December 31, 2013, 12:14:06 PM »
Didn't AD&D use '0th-level characters' as an NPC designation, because they hadn't invented NPC classes yet?

Is that what we were talking about? I was going to say, I'm fairly certain there's no such designation in Pathfinder, and it's based on 3.5

Offline TheGlyphstone

Re: This thread is about Pathfinder RPG!
« Reply #133 on: December 31, 2013, 12:21:35 PM »
Is that what we were talking about? I was going to say, I'm fairly certain there's no such designation in Pathfinder, and it's based on 3.5

This whole thing started because Name only plays 2e and earlier, disliking the 'superhero' feel of 3.x and beyond. So its' a gigantic thread derail.

Offline chaoslord29

Re: This thread is about Pathfinder RPG!
« Reply #134 on: December 31, 2013, 12:49:25 PM »
This whole thing started because Name only plays 2e and earlier, disliking the 'superhero' feel of 3.x and beyond. So its' a gigantic thread derail.

Oh, well that's easily re-tracked; Ahem . . .

Why the hell would you want to play as totally mundane characters in 2e or otherwise? I mean, I have the same complaint about 4th E D&D; it feels too much like I'm playing a more cumbersome version of WoW or Guild Wars (with all these different abilities, most of which are way too specific and all of which feel too much like 'moves').

Pathfinder strikes a nice balance though to my way of thinking. You're the heroes! You're supposed to be special, capable, proactive, able to shape the world around you with sword and spell and sneakiness. But if the GM is doing their job right, you're far cry from 'superheroes'. PCs get stabbed, bleed out, lose equipment, get taken captive, have their spellbooks and scrolls torched, and generally can't go to toe with the big bads of the world, especially outsiders and giant monsters. They have to rely on teamwork, guile, good planning, and a touch of luck to pull off the big win.

That's how it should be. You're not Superman or Thor or Green Lantern or Silver Surfer (at least, not until Epic Level and certain prestige classes); PCs are more like Pulp Heroes and Costumed Adventurers in terms of scale and power: The Phantom, Doc Savage, Dare Devil, maybe Spiderman or Wolverine at top tier.
« Last Edit: December 31, 2013, 12:54:53 PM by chaoslord29 »

Offline TheGlyphstone

Re: This thread is about Pathfinder RPG!
« Reply #135 on: December 31, 2013, 01:05:51 PM »
Depends on how you define 'superheroes'...3.x PCs are, as I pointed out before, effectively superhuman once they hit level 6+ in their capabilities and resilience. A fighter can take multiple stab wounds to the heart at that level and be perfectly fine...a mildly tough and lucky barbarian can jump from the top of a mountain (or from orbit) and walk away from the impact. So not Superman or Thor, but Hercules or Wolverine at least.

Offline chaoslord29

Re: This thread is about Pathfinder RPG!
« Reply #136 on: December 31, 2013, 01:26:54 PM »
Depends on how you define 'superheroes'...3.x PCs are, as I pointed out before, effectively superhuman once they hit level 6+ in their capabilities and resilience. A fighter can take multiple stab wounds to the heart at that level and be perfectly fine...a mildly tough and lucky barbarian can jump from the top of a mountain (or from orbit) and walk away from the impact. So not Superman or Thor, but Hercules or Wolverine at least.

Admittedly, those could be flavored as pretty superhuman feats and thus I would say meet the threshold that usually distinguishes the earliest costumed and pulp heroes from golden and silver age superheroes: the use of superhuman powers. On the other hand, I think a lot of it depends on the flavor of your campaign. I mean, when the Fighter takes three hits, it's up the GM to flavor whether those were stab wounds or whatever (to the heart or otherwise; HP are an abstraction after all), and sky divers who reach terminal velocity survive similar impacts (though it's always exceptional).

Hercules I think is the perfect analogue though, since you've got him as a comic book and a classical hero, the adventures of which are the original inspiration for the adventures D&D and other systems seek to recreate (ok, maybe Tolkien is the primary inspiration, but he drew heavily on mythology).

Offline TheGlyphstone

Re: This thread is about Pathfinder RPG!
« Reply #137 on: December 31, 2013, 02:24:29 PM »
Fair enough, HP is vague and frustrating at best of times.

If you had to translate levels to heroic-ness, though, I'd say 1st though 5th level are 'costumed adventurer/street' - level....Batman, Daredevil, Captain America. 6th through 10th is more 'mythological hero/superhuman' - Wolverine, Hercules, Beowulf. 11+ is when you're getting into 'legendary hero/superhero' - these are the Thors, the Supermen, the Cú Chulainns. Your spellcasters are reshaping the fabric of the world to their whims, your mundane warriors are tanking armies, or leading them. Interestingly, this is actually backed up mechanically to some degree by the Legend Lore spell, which defines 'legendary' as characters of 11th level or higher.
« Last Edit: December 31, 2013, 02:26:30 PM by TheGlyphstone »

Offline chaoslord29

Re: This thread is about Pathfinder RPG!
« Reply #138 on: December 31, 2013, 02:41:03 PM »
Fair enough, HP is vague and frustrating at best of times.

If you had to translate levels to heroic-ness, though, I'd say 1st though 5th level are 'costumed adventurer/street' - level....Batman, Daredevil, Captain America. 6th through 10th is more 'mythological hero/superhuman' - Wolverine, Hercules, Beowulf. 11+ is when you're getting into 'legendary hero/superhero' - these are the Thors, the Supermen, the Cú Chulainns. Your spellcasters are reshaping the fabric of the world to their whims, your mundane warriors are tanking armies, or leading them. Interestingly, this is actually backed up mechanically to some degree by the Legend Lore spell, which defines 'legendary' as characters of 11th level or higher.

I feel obliged to bump those numbers up a bit myself, but that may just be a representation of my particular style of play as a character (and how I view them) and encourage as a GM.

Batman, Daredevil, and Captain America are definitely a cut above the likes of the Phantom, Doc Savage, and Courtney Curridge, who I consider to be more of a fair comparison for levels 1-5; and I bump the superhuman threshold up to 8-11, and the truly legendary, power players of the Superhuman world come into their own around level 13 or 14.

It's still not a perfect comparison either way you look at it though, because invariably, Swords and Sorcery campaigns tend towards smaller scale conflicts (the quintessential 'dungeon crawl' still being utilized at high levels) whereas legendary heroes like Superman will be defending, saving, and, occasionally destroying, whole planets and civilizations.

Offline TheGlyphstone

Re: This thread is about Pathfinder RPG!
« Reply #139 on: December 31, 2013, 03:06:22 PM »
Levels scale up non-linearly, though, so you could pretty easily fit Phantom, Doc, and Courtney into the lower end of 1-5, Daredevil the middle, and Batman/Cap at the 5, maybe 6th level. 6th is the point where characters become capable of literally superhuman feats of otherwise mundane athletics, so I guess at best there's a fuzzy area of roughly a level's worth in between each 'bracket'. You had mentioned the ability of the GM to keep characters relying on teamwork/guile/luck rather than their sheer uberness, but I'd consider that a measure of the opponents they face as much as their personal ability...Batman fights Joker, Beowulf fights Grendel, Superman fights Doomsday and Darkseid; they get matched to enemies who can still challenge them even with the power they've obtained (mechanically, higher CR bad guys).

 11th level+ is still a big bracket in itself for that matter...people like the X-men would sit at the lower end around 11th-12th, the cosmic heavy hitters like Supes and Green Lantern at the 17-20 range. So maybe split it into 1-5 'peak human', 6-10 'mythological', 11-15 'planetary legendary', 16-20+ 'cosmic legendary'. Heck, even Superman still goes on 'dungeon crawls' once in a while, though where Batman's idea of a dungeon is the sewer tunnels beneath Gotham, Superman's 'dungeon' is Darkseid's Palace on Apokolips.

Offline chaoslord29

Re: This thread is about Pathfinder RPG!
« Reply #140 on: December 31, 2013, 03:46:30 PM »
Levels scale up non-linearly, though, so you could pretty easily fit Phantom, Doc, and Courtney into the lower end of 1-5, Daredevil the middle, and Batman/Cap at the 5, maybe 6th level. 6th is the point where characters become capable of literally superhuman feats of otherwise mundane athletics, so I guess at best there's a fuzzy area of roughly a level's worth in between each 'bracket'. You had mentioned the ability of the GM to keep characters relying on teamwork/guile/luck rather than their sheer uberness, but I'd consider that a measure of the opponents they face as much as their personal ability...Batman fights Joker, Beowulf fights Grendel, Superman fights Doomsday and Darkseid; they get matched to enemies who can still challenge them even with the power they've obtained (mechanically, higher CR bad guys).

 11th level+ is still a big bracket in itself for that matter...people like the X-men would sit at the lower end around 11th-12th, the cosmic heavy hitters like Supes and Green Lantern at the 17-20 range. So maybe split it into 1-5 'peak human', 6-10 'mythological', 11-15 'planetary legendary', 16-20+ 'cosmic legendary'. Heck, even Superman still goes on 'dungeon crawls' once in a while, though where Batman's idea of a dungeon is the sewer tunnels beneath Gotham, Superman's 'dungeon' is Darkseid's Palace on Apokolips.

Fair to say, and there's obviously some wiggle room depending on the feats, skills, and abilities any given group of PCs is going to choose to employ. Though I think the added point is that where Batman pursues one of his villains through the sewers because that's where they make their lair, Superman always has the option of just obliterating Apokolips wholesale (he certainly has the power to do so), but he doesn't. The reason is usually a product of the level of dramatic tension, not necessarily something the villain in question is doing, or has to do, so in that way the author (or gm) can guide even the most mechanically powerful heroes into situations where they must still rely on the creativity, preparation, and luck to win out.

Darkseid is a great example, because even though he's one of the few beings in the universe who can go toe to toe with Supes in a fist-fight, what makes him infinitely more dangerous than say Doomsday, is that Darkseid is as brilliant and manipulative as he is sadistic and malicious.

In the same way, even a group of epic level 3.x heroes can be presented with interesting challenges as long as you give them an appropriately dramatic and intriguing reason not to just level the evil lich's citadel with epic level sorcery and glass the surrounding continent for good measure.

I think the biggest problem in 3.x style heroes, one that Pathfinder doesn't really address, is how you're supposed to get even 6-8th level heroes involved and engaged on anything less than a metropolis or national level of conflict. Any town they walk into that isn't a walled city, is literally just so much canon fodder for them, and any appropriately motivated adventuring party of their level could probably take over the surrounding countryside and even a few small countries (duchies, princedoms, baronies, etc.) without ever really breaking a sweat (if they planned it right). Hence why all shop owners must inevitably be retired adventurers themselves and all towns inexplicably have an inexhaustible supply of highly trained guards led by the grizzled veteran of several wars.

The only effective way around this, is to make sure your PCs are motivated and invested in something more grand and intriguing than outright conquering and pillaging, which is why fleshing out character backgrounds and motivations and tying them into the overall story arc is important in no matter what system you play.

Offline TheGlyphstone

Re: This thread is about Pathfinder RPG!
« Reply #141 on: December 31, 2013, 04:11:10 PM »
And that in itself is as much a player issue as a game thing. You just need the right group of players who are interested in being more than murderhobos, and that's not really a habit you can train people out of unless you're real lucky.

Offline Chris Brady

Re: This thread is about Pathfinder RPG!
« Reply #142 on: December 31, 2013, 05:28:19 PM »
Didn't AD&D use '0th-level characters' as an NPC designation, because they hadn't invented NPC classes yet?

Is that what we were talking about? I was going to say, I'm fairly certain there's no such designation in Pathfinder, and it's based on 3.5

Yes, it is, I was talking older editions, because I was assuming that IStateYourName was too.

But I'm happy to drop this tangent.

Offline chaoslord29

Re: This thread is about Pathfinder RPG!
« Reply #143 on: December 31, 2013, 06:43:42 PM »
Yes! On to the how do you keep your players (or at least make it a challenge) from taking over the world.

Offline Chris Brady

Re: This thread is about Pathfinder RPG!
« Reply #144 on: January 01, 2014, 12:50:46 PM »
Dead Serious:  Stop the game at level 6.  As in the 'power level', every so many 'levels' after you can give players new Feats, but you stop the spell and HP progression at Level 6.  It really works, oddly enough.

Offline TheGlyphstone

Re: This thread is about Pathfinder RPG!
« Reply #145 on: January 01, 2014, 01:48:13 PM »
Also known as the E6 variant, which is awesome.

Offline chaoslord29

Re: This thread is about Pathfinder RPG!
« Reply #146 on: January 01, 2014, 04:13:47 PM »
I had nearly forgotten about E6, it's a great supplement.

Online Callie Del Noire

Re: This thread is about Pathfinder RPG!
« Reply #147 on: January 02, 2014, 11:57:59 AM »
Right now I'm trying to build my Thassalonian Lust Wizard for PFS.. (I got a boon that lets me create one) and I'm hitting a wall pretty good.

Not used to 'subtle' magics.. I tend to be the hammer em flat spell slinger. :D

Offline Chris Brady

Re: This thread is about Pathfinder RPG!
« Reply #148 on: January 02, 2014, 01:00:28 PM »
The best school for that would be Enchantment.  'Subtle' is more of visual descriptor than any actual effect.

Online Callie Del Noire

Re: This thread is about Pathfinder RPG!
« Reply #149 on: January 02, 2014, 01:07:29 PM »
The best school for that would be Enchantment.  'Subtle' is more of visual descriptor than any actual effect.

That's just is.. I've never done an enchanter before.. I'm playing this as a clone of the runelord of lust being awakened but she's NOT actually Sorshen.. just some weird free willed clone.