You are either not logged in or not registered with our community. Click here to register.
 
December 05, 2016, 02:49:32 PM

Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?

Login with username, password and session length

Click here if you are having problems.
Default Wide Screen Beige Lilac Rainbow Black & Blue October Send us your theme!

Hark!  The Herald!
Holiday Issue 2016

Wiki Blogs Dicebot

Author Topic: This thread is about Pathfinder RPG!  (Read 12437 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline IStateYourName

Re: This thread is about Pathfinder RPG!
« Reply #100 on: December 30, 2013, 01:30:59 PM »
I've never seen a psionic system, even the original D&D one, that didn't utterly queer the pitch and ruin things for those who did not possess psionic powers.

Having said that, in a couple games I ran in days of old, I did introduce psionics, but only as a highly advanced power held to a limited extent by carefully selected monsters (usually elder dragons, mid to high-level demons, illithids--the sorts of beasties a group doesn't even encounter until their median level is 6 or 7, at least).

One of the trends I despise the most about modern RPGs is the proliferation of super powers.  Even 1st level characters have to have some sort of special power or +3 attack form.  Nonsense.  When you are first level, you have no special powers.  You're a meatshield who just might, possibly, perhaps survive long enough to reproduce if and only if your player doesn't screw up.  And second level is not much better than first--you're a meatshield who now knows which end of the weapon to grab onto.  You certainly do not repeat not have the power to turn an opponent's brain into Jello by a mere thought.

Offline TheGlyphstone

Re: This thread is about Pathfinder RPG!
« Reply #101 on: December 30, 2013, 01:48:29 PM »
Personally, I've never liked psionics, I dislike the power-point system, and from all the people I've personally spoken to whom I respect the opinion of, it's a bit more powerful than standard classes/magic...so I'm going to pass on it, for sure.

Different strokes, I guess. The communities I pay attention to, from what I remember/believe, to be much higher on the average power/optimizing scale than you, and they regard psionics as powerful but vastly inferior to standard arcane/divine magic in the hands of someone dedicated to squeezing out the most effective character possible. I don't play at that level of power, but I trust and respect the commentary of those who do even on a purely theoretical basis. They're the 'experts' as far as this kind of thing goes, and have no reason to falsify their findings/calculations. I've often toyed with running a game similar to the Valdemar series of books where Psionics is the common 'magic', and actual arcane power is rare and powerful.

Dreamscarred Press, in general, is singlehandedly my favorite 3rd-party publisher. The stuff they wrote for 3.5 was frequently better written, better edited, and more balanced than WotC's official 1st-party material, and so far they've continued the trend for Pathfinder; between their psionics rules and the Path of War book they're working on (Tome of Battle for PF), it's like a beautiful checklist of everything I liked about 3.5 rebalanced and rewritten to fit the PF paradigm. Now they just need to make Binders and Incarnum and I'll never need to look inside a 3.5 book again.



One of the trends I despise the most about modern RPGs is the proliferation of super powers.  Even 1st level characters have to have some sort of special power or +3 attack form.  Nonsense.  When you are first level, you have no special powers.  You're a meatshield who just might, possibly, perhaps survive long enough to reproduce if and only if your player doesn't screw up.  And second level is not much better than first--you're a meatshield who now knows which end of the weapon to grab onto.  You certainly do not repeat not have the power to turn an opponent's brain into Jello by a mere thought.

I wouldn't call Exalted a 'modern RPG', and that's the only system I've ever heard of where turning an opponent's brain into Jello at 2nd level is remotely possible. What sort of games are you playing, anyways?

The original AD&D/2e psionics rules were gawdawful, though. No one I've ever met argues otherwise.
« Last Edit: December 30, 2013, 02:04:58 PM by TheGlyphstone »

Offline IStateYourName

Re: This thread is about Pathfinder RPG!
« Reply #102 on: December 30, 2013, 02:07:09 PM »
Different strokes, I guess. The communities I pay attention to, from what I remember/believe, to be much higher on the average power/optimizing scale
I wouldn't call Exalted a 'modern RPG', and that's the only system I've ever heard of where turning an opponent's brain into Jello at 2nd level is remotely possible. What sort of games are you playing, anyways?

Okay, so I exaggerated for dramatic effect.  It's not until 3rd level that the turn brains-to-Jello psionic power can be mastered.

I just don't like psionics.  Too much potential for munchkinism.  I don't categorically rule out that such a system could be crafted in a manner so as not to totally unbalance the game.  I just like lower-level characters to be very mortal greenhorns.  When I had a first-level character, I expected no powers and a 20 THAC0.  Maybe a 19 if I got some bonus.  An 18 if I were really lucky.  Nowadays there are all manner of feats and powers and whatnot.

Offline TheGlyphstone

Re: This thread is about Pathfinder RPG!
« Reply #103 on: December 30, 2013, 02:20:05 PM »
Okay, so I exaggerated for dramatic effect.  It's not until 3rd level that the turn brains-to-Jello psionic power can be mastered.

I just don't like psionics.  Too much potential for munchkinism.  I don't categorically rule out that such a system could be crafted in a manner so as not to totally unbalance the game.  I just like lower-level characters to be very mortal greenhorns.  When I had a first-level character, I expected no powers and a 20 THAC0.  Maybe a 19 if I got some bonus.  An 18 if I were really lucky.  Nowadays there are all manner of feats and powers and whatnot.

I still have no idea what power you're talking about (at first I thought Mind Thrust, but that's a 1st level power), though a 3rd-level wizard can render a fully grown man to ashes with a flick of his finger, give his fighter buddy a protective shield that Asmodeous himself could be summoned and be unable to break, or jump from the roof of a skyscraper-sized building without so much as a sprained ankle. It doesn't matter whether you're a cleric, wizard, or psion, you're going to make the 100% mundane fighter look like a pathetic chump really easily. I love psionics for the exact opposite reason...its powers are printed in 1-2 books, compared to every single book ever written adding more spells of questionable balance to the Vancian caster lists and resulting in a far smaller pool of potential problems to pre-emptively fix, and a tiny fraction of the real muchkin exploits resulting from the smaller option pool.

Complaining about general power creep is sensible and fair - it's definitely true that 1e or 2e adventurers were far more mundane and fragile than the would-be superheroes that are 3.x and 4e characters. Just try to keep the mystic prejudice equally balanced. :D And always roll your stats 3d6, in order.
« Last Edit: December 30, 2013, 02:33:21 PM by TheGlyphstone »

Online Myrleena

Re: This thread is about Pathfinder RPG!
« Reply #104 on: December 30, 2013, 02:48:33 PM »
I still have no idea what power you're talking about (at first I thought Mind Thrust, but that's a 1st level power), though a 3rd-level wizard can render a fully grown man to ashes with a flick of his finger, give his fighter buddy a protective shield that Asmodeous himself could be summoned and be unable to break, or jump from the roof of a skyscraper-sized building without so much as a sprained ankle.

Amusingly, if you've seen the most recent volume of Wrath of the Righteous, I wouldn't count on the spell stopping Asmodeus...

But in any case, I looked at the Path of War playtest. I didn't like it. Oh, don't get me wrong, I actually did like the Tome of Battle, even with its myriad flaws, but when I looked at DSP's take on it...it just fell flat for me. It isn't what I want. And I'll freely admit that their material was better edited than WotC, especially near the end of 3.5's life cycle. The editing fell to near-garbage at that point.

Now, as to the power-gaming/optimizing...yes, I can do it. I built some of the insanely overpowered builds in 3.5. I just got tired of it and stopped. Now, on the other hand, I'm not the best in the world. Can I optimize to squeeze every last drop of power out of some characters? Yep. It's not worth it to me. I looked at 3.5 psionics, understood them, played a bit with them. Because they were simply porting 3.5 to PF, and altering it somewhat...well, that's reason enough that I've never even bothered looking at the book.

Offline TheGlyphstone

Re: This thread is about Pathfinder RPG!
« Reply #105 on: December 30, 2013, 02:51:50 PM »
He's an Evil outsider isn't he? Protection From Evil makes no exceptions for any reason, including saving throws or spell resistance. As long as that spell is in place, and as long as Big A is summoned and not gated/called, he's not allowed to lay a finger on you. :D He can do anything else he wants, many of which will still kill you, but the spell bans even demon lords/gods from physically touching you unless you touch them first.

I wonder about stuff like that. But then I remember this is a game where Mr. Fluffles the domesticated house cat has, should he wake up with murder in his eyes, excellent odds of ambushing and killing his owner in less than six seconds. Then I chant the MST3K mantra until I calm down or pass out.
« Last Edit: December 30, 2013, 02:53:09 PM by TheGlyphstone »

Online Myrleena

Re: This thread is about Pathfinder RPG!
« Reply #106 on: December 30, 2013, 03:04:25 PM »
Wrath of the Righteous Spoiler
Nocticula has an ability that allows her to eliminate any creature's immunity to charms, compulsions, and mind-effecting effects for 24 hours, and fascinates them for 5d4 rounds, if they fail a DC 43 Fort Save.

On the other hand, Asmodeus is a god. Thus, we have no idea what his actual abilities are. It also likely means he's not summon-able. But whichever...if you have a Summon Monster affect that can summon him, use at your own risk!

Offline TheGlyphstone

Re: This thread is about Pathfinder RPG!
« Reply #107 on: December 30, 2013, 04:26:51 PM »
Wrath of the Righteous Spoiler
Nocticula has an ability that allows her to eliminate any creature's immunity to charms, compulsions, and mind-effecting effects for 24 hours, and fascinates them for 5d4 rounds, if they fail a DC 43 Fort Save.

On the other hand, Asmodeus is a god. Thus, we have no idea what his actual abilities are. It also likely means he's not summon-able. But whichever...if you have a Summon Monster affect that can summon him, use at your own risk!

Spoiler: Click to Show/Hide
Strictly, that doesn't work...the ban against physical contact granted by ProtEvil would, weirdly, be the only thing left after being hit by that ability (well, you'd get the AC and save bonuses too), but it wouldn't actually dispel the spell.
And I never said relying on a Protection from Evil to protect you from Asmodeous was a good idea :D (and we're getting hung up on Big A anyways, Protection from Good/Law/Chaos have exactly the same effects on their respective gods, a flat ban on simple physical contact. Just an entertaining quirk that serves as a reminder that the rules do weird things sometimes, and that's why we have GMs to adjudicate.

Online Myrleena

Re: This thread is about Pathfinder RPG!
« Reply #108 on: December 30, 2013, 04:32:57 PM »
Oh, I know on both accounts. But the problem is, you never can account for every option that is out there...heck, we can't even be sure that Asmodeus is an outsider! Almost certainly he is, but he might not be. The joys of rule systems!

Offline TheGlyphstone

Re: This thread is about Pathfinder RPG!
« Reply #109 on: December 30, 2013, 04:48:22 PM »
Oh, I know on both accounts. But the problem is, you never can account for every option that is out there...heck, we can't even be sure that Asmodeus is an outsider! Almost certainly he is, but he might not be. The joys of rule systems!

So let's not use Asmodeus then...for a 1st-level character, they're unlikely to be able to distinguish between Asmodeous and a Pit Fiend named Asmodosos, and their expected lifespan trying to fight either one should be roughly equivalent (and possibly infinitely short, since free actions take no defined measurable amount of time). We do know that poor Asmodosos can't even give the guy a friendly pat on the back unless the guy touches him voluntarily.

Offline chaoslord29

Re: This thread is about Pathfinder RPG!
« Reply #110 on: December 30, 2013, 05:24:23 PM »
Can't speak from experience, but if as GM I was called on to take up the role of Asmodeus, I wouldn't subject him to any of the normal spellcasting rules. I know that Epic 3.5 has some rules for how Gods operate, but Pathfinder doesn't, and I would be woe to try and port them over when what I like about Pathfinder are the steps specifically taken to balance the game.

Gods are not necessarily Outsiders, except in the looseset definition that they exist outside the material plane. It's worth noting that even in cases where gods are 'killed' on their home plane, they're not so much going to die as they're sort of reboot and coalescence back together from the divine substance-matter that spawned them in the first place. Can't speak to whether that's canon or not, but it seems to me to be the way such things are handled.

Suffice to say, if Asmodeus wants to get around a protection from evil spell, he will. The point of him being a God is that he doesn't really have to do it though. His designs are always (and should be) more grand.

Offline TheGlyphstone

Re: This thread is about Pathfinder RPG!
« Reply #111 on: December 30, 2013, 05:30:29 PM »
Can't speak from experience, but if as GM I was called on to take up the role of Asmodeus, I wouldn't subject him to any of the normal spellcasting rules. I know that Epic 3.5 has some rules for how Gods operate, but Pathfinder doesn't, and I would be woe to try and port them over when what I like about Pathfinder are the steps specifically taken to balance the game.

Gods are not necessarily Outsiders, except in the looseset definition that they exist outside the material plane. It's worth noting that even in cases where gods are 'killed' on their home plane, they're not so much going to die as they're sort of reboot and coalescence back together from the divine substance-matter that spawned them in the first place. Can't speak to whether that's canon or not, but it seems to me to be the way such things are handled.

Suffice to say, if Asmodeus wants to get around a protection from evil spell, he will. The point of him being a God is that he doesn't really have to do it though. His designs are always (and should be) more grand.

They're Outsiders with special rules for reforming (this is an inherent benefit of the Divine Rank rules), canonically - ever since the first Deities+Demigods, they've been extraplanar beings, which was defined as the Outsider type once Types became a thing. Outsider is a creature type, and everything, even gods, has a Creature type by the rules. So while you could decide as a GM that a god is not an outsider solely to get around a Protection from Evil effect, it'd be far simpler and less twisted/convoluted to use of their nine million Dispel-related powers to remove the effect as a free action. The whole point of this diversion, which is having the weird side effect of people jumping through giant hoops to explain why the rules don't forbid a god from touching someone under ProtAlign, was that the rules are weird and wonky and so strict RAW is not the best solution in many cases.
« Last Edit: December 30, 2013, 05:31:37 PM by TheGlyphstone »

Offline chaoslord29

Re: This thread is about Pathfinder RPG!
« Reply #112 on: December 30, 2013, 05:36:33 PM »
They're Outsiders with special rules for reforming (this is an inherent benefit of the Divine Rank rules), canonically - ever since the first Deities+Demigods, they've been extraplanar beings, which was defined as the Outsider type once Types became a thing. Outsider is a creature type, and everything, even gods, has a Creature type by the rules. So while you could decide as a GM that a god is not an outsider solely to get around a Protection from Evil effect, it'd be far simpler and less twisted/convoluted to use of their nine million Dispel-related powers to remove the effect as a free action. The whole point of this diversion, which is having the weird side effect of people jumping through giant hoops to explain why the rules don't forbid a god from touching someone under ProtAlign, was that the rules are weird and wonky and so strict RAW is not the best solution in many cases.

Well considering I walked right into the trap of trying to find a finicky work around without being able to really tell what the inherent issues is, I'd say the case is proven in point of fact.

It's much the reason why I prefer rules-light systems, like FATE, because everything you could possibly want to do is easily defined within four (sometimes five) easy to understand actions and the Golden Rule isn't RAW but rather, The Rule of Cool: "What is the coolest way to apply the rules in this situation? Pick that one."

Offline TheGlyphstone

Re: This thread is about Pathfinder RPG!
« Reply #113 on: December 30, 2013, 05:50:33 PM »
I've always liked FATE, but can't find anyone locally who's willing to try it out.

Offline chaoslord29

Re: This thread is about Pathfinder RPG!
« Reply #114 on: December 30, 2013, 06:10:04 PM »
I've always liked FATE, but can't find anyone locally who's willing to try it out.

Forget locally! FATE is awesome for Play-by-Post games, and I posted an interest thread for just such a game right here on Elliquiy, this very day!

And to think I came here half looking to pick a fight over which was the better system haha. But seriously, I love Pathfinder, sometimes I struggle to understand why people still play 3.5, but I figure everyone's got to have their own taste in games or else I've never try anything new myself.

Personally, I think Pathfinder's biggest strength is the Archetype System and the balancing of casting vs martial classes.

Online Myrleena

Re: This thread is about Pathfinder RPG!
« Reply #115 on: December 30, 2013, 06:47:17 PM »
Oh, I love archetypes!

But on the previous subject, in my view, a number of Gods easily could be other types. For instance, Dahak, Tiamat and the like are obviously dragons. Urgathoa is almost certainly undead. Torag might be an outsider, but I could see him as a Humanoid (dwarf) (augmented). Ditto for others that took the Test of the Starstone, like Iomedae. Heck, I could see Gorum even being a unique construct!

The problem with codifying them all as outsiders is that it's, in many ways, limiting. I don't like limiting them like that. Personally, I do find the 'summoned outsiders cannot touch' kind of silly...but the thing is, most creatures that can be hit by the Summon Monster spells aren't that scary at the level you can summon them. A pit fiend or balor almost certainly has to be Gated in or the like.

And, as an aside, I purchased the Dresden Files RPG, so I rather like FATE as well.

Offline Callie Del Noire

Re: This thread is about Pathfinder RPG!
« Reply #116 on: December 30, 2013, 06:52:39 PM »
Oh, I love archetypes!

Me too. I love the Grendier Alchemist the most right now but several archetypes have made classes I normally don't play a lot of. Like fighters. (Lore Warden and Tower shield specialist) and I see a LOT of certain archetypes in PFS play.  (Zen Archer is a biggie, ditto Urban Barb and Titan Mauler)

Offline Chris Brady

Re: This thread is about Pathfinder RPG!
« Reply #117 on: December 30, 2013, 09:36:03 PM »
I've never seen a psionic system, even the original D&D one, that didn't utterly queer the pitch and ruin things for those who did not possess psionic powers.

Having said that, in a couple games I ran in days of old, I did introduce psionics, but only as a highly advanced power held to a limited extent by carefully selected monsters (usually elder dragons, mid to high-level demons, illithids--the sorts of beasties a group doesn't even encounter until their median level is 6 or 7, at least).

One of the trends I despise the most about modern RPGs is the proliferation of super powers.  Even 1st level characters have to have some sort of special power or +3 attack form.  Nonsense.  When you are first level, you have no special powers.  You're a meatshield who just might, possibly, perhaps survive long enough to reproduce if and only if your player doesn't screw up.  And second level is not much better than first--you're a meatshield who now knows which end of the weapon to grab onto.  You certainly do not repeat not have the power to turn an opponent's brain into Jello by a mere thought.
Have you actually played D&D?  There are superpowers abound.  But only the 'special' people get to have them, Wizards and Clerics.  And unlike Fighters or Thieves/Rogues, they only get more

What even better is that spells have no chance of failure.  They CAN be resisted, but once you say you're casting a Fireball (why would you do that, though?  Sleep is more effective against the low levels) boom, it's on it's way.  Psionics, on the other hand, if I remember correctly, in the older editions, you needed to make a roll of some sort.  In 3.x you need to make a skill check EVERY TIME, not so with Magic.  And as such, that makes Magic superiour and more powerful than Psionics could ever hope to be.

And turning a man's brain into Jello is nothing compared to being able to Stop TIME itself, talk to Gods and they have to answer you TRUTHFULLY, summon a literal meteor from the sky (and NOT destroy the planet in the process, which is a magnificent feat in itself), or simply make a group of up to nearly twenty hostiles to sleep.  Hell, a Fighter can turn a man's brain into Jello.  Hit him with a mace.

Also, that perception of Fighter being some stupid, brainless schlub who can barely hold his weapon needs to fucking die.  That is NOT a professional Fighter.  A Fighter is a freshly Knighted Squire, trained with weapons and other skills.  Or a mercenary soldier, just off his first tour, realizing that he has both the talent, drive and need to keep fighting, also well trained and moderately skilled, in not just weaponry, but the lay of the land and maybe even the political situation (A Fighter can probably be as well traveled as the Bard class, from day one.) Or a talented farmboy/girl, but she/he's got one thing all the other kids don't, courage and a willingness to fight.  Or the man/woman who lost everything, and is out for vengeance, and again, is either naturally skilled, talented or even properly trained.  Or any number of such backgrounds, but not the common, scared militiaman.

The useless schlub you're apparently so enamoured with is not a Fighter.  He's the poor sap that the cowardly Lord of the Manor sends to die, while his Honour waits for the King's Knights to come and save his fat arse from the goblin horde.  And the poor schlub is most likely going to die.  But if he survives, he's not going to turn into an adventurer, he's going to run home, go back to the farm, go back to work, and hope to all that's holy that he never gets called to lift a spear ever again.  Until the next time.  And if he keeps surviving, he's still never going to be a Fighter.

Offline TheGlyphstone

Re: This thread is about Pathfinder RPG!
« Reply #118 on: December 30, 2013, 09:43:48 PM »
His description is pretty accurate for the 1st and 2nd editions of D&D....your fighters were useless schlubs. Your Wizards (Magic Users) cast 1 magic missile then threw darts for the rest of the day. You brought a stack of spare character sheets because one hit could kill you...it was like playind modern D&D at 1st level...forever. Some people liked that kinda thing.

Offline IStateYourName

Re: This thread is about Pathfinder RPG!
« Reply #119 on: December 30, 2013, 09:49:27 PM »
So let's not use Asmodeus then...for a 1st-level character, they're unlikely to be able to distinguish between Asmodeous and a Pit Fiend named Asmodosos, and their expected lifespan trying to fight either one should be roughly equivalent (and possibly infinitely short, since free actions take no defined measurable amount of time). We do know that poor Asmodosos can't even give the guy a friendly pat on the back unless the guy touches him voluntarily.

If I were DM...well, not that Asmodeous (or any comparable high-echelon demon or devil) would be coming into contact with low-level characters, but the demon would just use an area effect spell (like fireball, cloudkill or creeping doom, or two of these at once) and turn out the lights of the low-level character in short order.  Plus, I also have house rules that give any magical effect a chance of failing if there is a large difference in levels between the caster and the entity affected.

So a 3rd-level cleric's protection from evil spell would work fine against evil creatures up to 6 hit dice or so.  A vampire might be able to break it, though that would be rather unlikely.  A lich?  Maybe, maybe not.  A middle-echelon demon would have a good chance of getting around it, though this would not be assured.  An arch-devil or demon lord?  I'd say the odds of spell failure would be around 90%.  A creature that powerful is likely to find some tiny flaw in the dweomercraft, and use it to nullify the spell.

Offline Chris Brady

Re: This thread is about Pathfinder RPG!
« Reply #120 on: December 30, 2013, 09:57:52 PM »
His description is pretty accurate for the 1st and 2nd editions of D&D....your fighters were useless schlubs. Your Wizards (Magic Users) cast 1 magic missile then threw darts for the rest of the day. You brought a stack of spare character sheets because one hit could kill you...it was like playind modern D&D at 1st level...forever. Some people liked that kinda thing.
Flipping through the AD&D 1e book right now, they were no less useless than any other character class.  Even more important, Fighters actually got the BEST saves in the game.

The problem with this perception DOES go back to the AD&D though.  Namely the 9-10th level Fighter who could retire and suddenly get an influx of relatively low level men at arms.  It gave the wrong impression that Fighters were common, and that everyone can be one (actually, no, the best 'Every man' class?  The Thief/Rogue, cuz stealing is easy.  Weapons work, is not.)  When in reality you got maybe a total of 10 of these guys.  TEN, to man an entire fortress.  This not a small manor, but a full on border keep, granted by a local ruler type person.  You don't think that on top of those 10 elite, you wouldn't have a couple hundred basic soldiers you could call upon?  None of which would be Fighters.

So, no, the Fighter is not some useless schlub, he's a Hero.  He's Galahad, Gawain, Beowulf, he's Alexander the Great, and many more I can mention, men of skill, courage, brains and leadership.  He, or she, is a Superhero.

Unfortunately, D&D never did that well.  And people's perceptions tend to colour things.

Offline IStateYourName

Re: This thread is about Pathfinder RPG!
« Reply #121 on: December 30, 2013, 09:58:07 PM »
His description is pretty accurate for the 1st and 2nd editions of D&D....your fighters were useless schlubs. Your Wizards (Magic Users) cast 1 magic missile then threw darts for the rest of the day. You brought a stack of spare character sheets because one hit could kill you...it was like playind modern D&D at 1st level...forever. Some people liked that kinda thing.

I agree that fighter progression left something to be wanted.  In my games, I usually incorporated some house rules like multiple weapon specialization giving bonuses at higher levels.  Nothing wrong with a combat veteran (say 4th level) starting to get some extra bonuses for preferred weapons.  It's just there was too much bleed-through between the higher editions of D&D and computer-based RPGs.  Linear progression for characters.  You have to take this, this and that feat to qualify for such and such a prestige class.  When the system warps the development of the character to fit into a predetermined "box," that's when I get turned off.  I liked first and second edition because they left room for DMs to create house rules to augment the system without putting characters on a linear, predetermined path.

Offline Chris Brady

Re: This thread is about Pathfinder RPG!
« Reply #122 on: December 30, 2013, 10:13:35 PM »
If I were DM...well, not that Asmodeous (or any comparable high-echelon demon or devil) would be coming into contact with low-level characters, but the demon would just use an area effect spell (like fireball, cloudkill or creeping doom, or two of these at once) and turn out the lights of the low-level character in short order.  Plus, I also have house rules that give any magical effect a chance of failing if there is a large difference in levels between the caster and the entity affected.
Actually, that depends on the GM's interpretation of how it works.  Do you go with the spirit of the law?  Or the letter of the law.  The latter can (has) lead to some rather dickish situations.  But the former means that as long as the Fighter is under that spell, even AoE spells are not going to work, because it would cause DIRECT harm to said Fighter, and the spell says NO.

Offline IStateYourName

Re: This thread is about Pathfinder RPG!
« Reply #123 on: December 30, 2013, 10:19:25 PM »

Also, that perception of Fighter being some stupid, brainless schlub who can barely hold his weapon needs to fucking die.  That is NOT a professional Fighter.  A Fighter is a freshly Knighted Squire, trained with weapons and other skills.  Or a mercenary soldier, just off his first tour, realizing that he has both the talent, drive and need to keep fighting, also well trained and moderately skilled, in not just weaponry, but the lay of the land and maybe even the political situation (A Fighter can probably be as well traveled as the Bard class, from day one.) Or a talented farmboy/girl, but she/he's got one thing all the other kids don't, courage and a willingness to fight.  Or the man/woman who lost everything, and is out for vengeance, and again, is either naturally skilled, talented or even properly trained.  Or any number of such backgrounds, but not the common, scared militiaman.

The useless schlub you're apparently so enamoured with is not a Fighter.  He's the poor sap that the cowardly Lord of the Manor sends to die, while his Honour waits for the King's Knights to come and save his fat arse from the goblin horde.  And the poor schlub is most likely going to die.  But if he survives, he's not going to turn into an adventurer, he's going to run home, go back to the farm, go back to work, and hope to all that's holy that he never gets called to lift a spear ever again.  Until the next time.  And if he keeps surviving, he's still never going to be a Fighter.

But the fighter at first level is a raw recruit, a greenhorn, very mortal and weak.  Of course, some of how he ends up depends on ability scores--a fighter with an 18 Strength and 16 Constitution is more likely to survive to become a legend than one with 14 Strength and 11 Con.

The fighter at third level is a journeyman.  He has survived "seeing the elephant," and has some skill developed.  If he comes from a farming village, he is probably a man of some (local) renown.  He is still mortal, of course, and far from a master.  He perhaps has achieved the level of squire, or the cultural equivalent.

The fighter at fifth level is developing both a reputation and considerable skill at arms.  He is a proto-legend, a man of renown beyond his village.

The fighter at seventh level...well, now we're getting a lot closer to your grand vision of a warrior.  He has probably been knighted (or given the cultural equivalent of knighthood).  He is a man of regional renown, and his name is spoken in the courts of barons and counts, perhaps even dukes.

The fighter at tenth level is your definition of a warrior hero.  His puissance at arms is legendary.  He is a master, on his way to become a grand master.  Certainly he has been knighted, and quite probably given his own fief and post in the monarchy.  Indeed, he probably spends almost as much time with matters of administering his growing domain as he does in the field.  He is a "go-to" man for the nobility, even the Duke himself, and he is now being noticed and spoken of, if in passing, in the halls of the King.

The fighter at 15th level is a grand master.  Now we are talking an Achilles, an Alexander, a legend known far and wide across the land, who can raise an army to command for his King.  Or...perhaps...he could lead an army to seize the throne for himself, were he so inclined.

Obviously, the structure here is pyramidical.  You have a lot of wanna-be lords and masters.  Most won't survive.  Some will be injured, maimed permanently, and retire from adventure.  For every 1,000 1st-level chubs, there are maybe 100 3rd-level.  25 fifth-level.  10 seventh-level.  3 to 5 tenth level.  Maybe 1 15th-level.  The rest...their bones are strewn across the landscape.  They didn't make the grade.

Obviously, you don't want that level of mortality in a D&D campaign.  For the purposes of crafting heroic fiction, we're giving our PCs a substantially higher chance of survival.  But what I described is how a gritty fantasy world operates.  Fighter can be heroes...but as AC/DC sang, it's a long way to the top if you wanna rock and roll.  >:)

Offline TheGlyphstone

Re: This thread is about Pathfinder RPG!
« Reply #124 on: December 30, 2013, 10:38:59 PM »
If you're talking about 3.5, a 6th level fighter is already a Hercules-esque superhuman, if one pays attention to skills and what they can accomplish by certain skill checks - people do the math on stuff like this for fun (?), and a 5th-level fighter trained in Jump would easily meet or exceed the Olympic world record for long jump, for one example. By 10th level, you're the demigod-like living legend.