You are either not logged in or not registered with our community. Click here to register.
 
December 07, 2016, 02:38:37 AM

Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?

Login with username, password and session length

Click here if you are having problems.
Default Wide Screen Beige Lilac Rainbow Black & Blue October Send us your theme!

Hark!  The Herald!
Holiday Issue 2016

Wiki Blogs Dicebot

Author Topic: The concept of a good RPer.  (Read 5624 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline GothicFires

Re: The concept of a good RPer.
« Reply #50 on: November 14, 2013, 08:32:21 PM »
I understand the reason behind asking for a certain length of posts, but it frustrates me. There is nothing wrong with wanting great description about how the white dress hugged to the girl's skin and that the wind caused the skirt to flutter. I do love rich, and often verbose descriptions.

But once we're 15 posts in and our characters are having a friendly conversation and we already know that the wind is blowing and the dress is white and the boat is rocking and my character is sad and her hair is blonde and etc, and really all she's going to say right now is "Yes, I've considered that before..."

What am I supposed to do there? How am I supposed to come up with 4 paragraphs without either restating something that's already been said, filling my character's heads with thoughts and memories that they probably can't actually fit within the 10 seconds of screentime they're getting, having them say or do more and thus restricting my partner's ability to respond to the first thing I said, or bringing in details so pointless they're perfectly round?

That would be something you need to discuss with the partner of the story in question because solutions to the problem depend on what your partner is willing to work with and what you are willing to write.

Offline roulette

Re: The concept of a good RPer.
« Reply #51 on: November 14, 2013, 08:47:12 PM »
Usually, I would agree. I mean, I mostly DO agree.

But it frustrates me more because the demand for larger posts is everywhere, and it just looms over the entire community. I'm frustrated with having partners apologize to me because once or twice they post less than two paragraphs. I'm frustrated with my partners feeling intimidated by needing to match my posts when I know their response needs only be a few lines long, especially when that intimidation causes them to take longer to reply. I'm frustrated with feeling obligated to do the same. I'm frustrated with feeling insecure, like my partner will think that I'm lazy, etc, if I give them a small post, and sometimes it keeps me from replying to them.

I'm frustrated with my partners writing that their character asks mine a question, and then answers in themselves, and then asks another question, and then goes and does something else. I'm tired of characters having three conversations at a time, because my partner and I are insecure about our post size.

And this affects me AND the partners I play with, even despite discussing "flexible post size," or RPing together for months and years. Because that message is everywhere. More is better. Less is lazy and incompetent.

Offline ladia2287

Re: The concept of a good RPer.
« Reply #52 on: November 14, 2013, 08:53:49 PM »
Usually, I would agree. I mean, I mostly DO agree.

But it frustrates me more because the demand for larger posts is everywhere, and it just looms over the entire community. I'm frustrated with having partners apologize to me because once or twice they post less than two paragraphs. I'm frustrated with my partners feeling intimidated by needing to match my posts when I know their response needs only be a few lines long, especially when that intimidation causes them to take longer to reply. I'm frustrated with feeling obligated to do the same. I'm frustrated with feeling insecure, like my partner will think that I'm lazy, etc, if I give them a small post, and sometimes it keeps me from replying to them.

I'm frustrated with my partners writing that their character asks mine a question, and then answers in themselves, and then asks another question, and then goes and does something else. I'm tired of characters having three conversations at a time, because my partner and I are insecure about our post size.

And this affects me AND the partners I play with, even despite discussing "flexible post size," or RPing together for months and years. Because that message is everywhere. More is better. Less is lazy and incompetent.

To me, posting size should always be flexible. I have no trouble coming up with a dozen good sized paragraphs if I have a reason to actually do so, such as introducing a dramatic plot twist. But at the same time, I need the flexibility to not feel under pressure to write more when it isn't necessary. I actually recall telling one of my early partners here "There's only so much detail I can put into 'My character followed yours into his house'."

I've had potential partners insult my writing and my RPing in general because I just find it utterly exhausting to come up with millions of paragraphs for every single post. Now, I refuse to take partners on unless they agree to allow that flexibility in my post length.

Offline roulette

Re: The concept of a good RPer.
« Reply #53 on: November 14, 2013, 09:06:10 PM »
I agree, Ladia.

I do also find it frustrating though because to some extent, a lot of the 'good' writers do actually follow this idea, whereas less competent writers are more likely to jump on board with someone who doesn't enforce a word count. So I can understand the desire to set standards, because to some extent you're not really going to run into people who have a lousy grasp of language skills if you're asking for large posts. But I still feel its an arbitrary rule, and harmful.

When someone decides not to RP with me because I can't promise 3+ paras a post, we both lose a good partner, and that makes me sad.

Offline GothicFires

Re: The concept of a good RPer.
« Reply #54 on: November 14, 2013, 09:11:20 PM »
No one should insult your writing skills. If someone doesn't meet my personal requirements, then I tell them our writing styles do not match and wish them luck finding someone else.

While you may find it difficult to write with someone who expects posts of a certain length, I find it difficult to respond to post that are under a certain length. When i was a GM I tried, really tried not to require a minimum word count. Then i would have to reply to one liners and people who didn't even try to come up with a paragraph and I would get headaches and physically ill trying to reply to these people.

Find people who have the same expectations as you but do not bash people who have different expectations. Perhaps they may be better or worse writers than you, but as you they have a right to their expectations. If you don't match then move on and find someone you will be happy with and who will be happy with you.

Offline ladia2287

Re: The concept of a good RPer.
« Reply #55 on: November 14, 2013, 09:22:48 PM »
I agree, Ladia.

I do also find it frustrating though because to some extent, a lot of the 'good' writers do actually follow this idea, whereas less competent writers are more likely to jump on board with someone who doesn't enforce a word count. So I can understand the desire to set standards, because to some extent you're not really going to run into people who have a lousy grasp of language skills if you're asking for large posts. But I still feel its an arbitrary rule, and harmful.

When someone decides not to RP with me because I can't promise 3+ paras a post, we both lose a good partner, and that makes me sad.

There is nothing wrong with expecting good writing. I myself make it clear that I will quickly drop any player whose posts portray them as illiterate. My standards even there are flexible; any who read my request thread will note that I at least expect them to speak and write better English than my niece, who is about to turn four (these standards may seem really low, but surprisingly enough I have had to drop three partners on that basis, even though everyone on this site is a lot older than 4. But I get annoyed at writers who insist that length always equals quality, therefore short length equals poor quality. I also get annoyed at those who say "I'm a published author so only my style of writing is any good". Guess what? Technically, every member here is published.

Ironically, I had one former partner accuse me of posting one-liners when ALL of my posts were longer than his

Offline roulette

Re: The concept of a good RPer.
« Reply #56 on: November 14, 2013, 09:32:25 PM »
Find people who have the same expectations as you but do not bash people who have different expectations. Perhaps they may be better or worse writers than you, but as you they have a right to their expectations. If you don't match then move on and find someone you will be happy with and who will be happy with you.

I am not trying to bash anybody. No individual is responsible for the problem. I don't at all blame you or look down on you for setting the expectations that you do.

I have to ask, though: When you say that you find it difficult to respond to posts under a certain length, do you mean you find it difficult to think of any response whatsoever--or do you just find it hard to write 3 paragraphs in response to 3 lines? There are some situations which call for a couple 3 lined posts on each side, etc.

Why is it difficult to respond? Because there is nothing for your character to react to? Because it's bad practice, no matter how much is written, to often leave the other player without a reasonable way to respond in character or build off of your post.

I know that if I write just a few lines, personally, chances are my character has said something or done something to the other. Responding should be easy, because all your character has to do is respond in turn.

"Hello, how are you?"
"I'm good, how about you?"

No, that's totally not very engaging RP right there. But it's a post and its a response.

GothicFires, I am by no means trying to insult you or bash you, and if I am in anyway upsetting or offending you, please let me know.

Offline GothicFires

Re: The concept of a good RPer.
« Reply #57 on: November 14, 2013, 09:44:41 PM »
There is nothing wrong with expecting good writing. I myself make it clear that I will quickly drop any player whose posts portray them as illiterate. My standards even there are flexible; any who read my request thread will note that I at least expect them to speak and write better English than my niece, who is about to turn four (these standards may seem really low, but surprisingly enough I have had to drop three partners on that basis, even though everyone on this site is a lot older than 4. But I get annoyed at writers who insist that length always equals quality, therefore short length equals poor quality. I also get annoyed at those who say "I'm a published author so only my style of writing is any good". Guess what? Technically, every member here is published.

Ironically, I had one former partner accuse me of posting one-liners when ALL of my posts were longer than his

I see people who say what they expect of their partner in their o/o's. I have read anywhere in this site (of course i have not read everything) that anyone has said that 'if you don't write my way then you aren't a good writer'. In my o/os I explain to potential partners what keeps me happy. I am honest. This is what it takes. If the person looking doesn't like my required list then they would not be happy writing with me and I would not be happy writing with them. These people that you are 'annoyed with' why not just ignore them and move on? Why let strangers even cause you the energy and emotion of being annoyed?

I personally can write a post over 300 words with out even trying. It is rare (but has happened recently) where I couldn't. But it is the line I set because of personal experience. I am not happy when I constantly post longer then my partner. And this does not even consider how good a person is as a writer. I have written with people of various talents. But I know what makes me happy.

A person who expects from a partner what they put into it, is only a person being honest with what they expect and that should be respected, even if you don't agree with it.

I am not trying to bash anybody. No individual is responsible for the problem. I don't at all blame you or look down on you for setting the expectations that you do.

I have to ask, though: When you say that you find it difficult to respond to posts under a certain length, do you mean you find it difficult to think of any response whatsoever--or do you just find it hard to write 3 paragraphs in response to 3 lines? There are some situations which call for a couple 3 lined posts on each side, etc.

Why is it difficult to respond? Because there is nothing for your character to react to? Because it's bad practice, no matter how much is written, to often leave the other player without a reasonable way to respond in character or build off of your post.

I know that if I write just a few lines, personally, chances are my character has said something or done something to the other. Responding should be easy, because all your character has to do is respond in turn.

"Hello, how are you?"
"I'm good, how about you?"

No, that's totally not very engaging RP right there. But it's a post and its a response.

GothicFires, I am by no means trying to insult you or bash you, and if I am in anyway upsetting or offending you, please let me know.

I am not taking this personally and my 'you' is a universal reader.

Sometimes i have difficulty thinking of a response.
If i constantly post longer than my partner, it builds resentment. It feels like I am putting in more effort and the one driving the story.
I have never been in a situation, ever where three sentences were required for a post.

It doesn't make me happy. It makes me miserable. I don't have fun.

What I am trying to point out here is that why is it a big deal to anyone that doesn't like someone else's requirements for their writing enjoyment that they have those requirements? If you can't consistently post more than 300 words with out it feeling like a chore then you wouldn't be a good match for me. I've been known to exchange posts over 600 words with partners. I recently wrote a post over 1800 words. If this isn't you we won't be a good match. So why be upset that people like I state our expectations of words or paragraphs?

You either can or cannot meet a potential partner's expectations. If you can, they say hello. If you cannot why give anymore thought to it?
« Last Edit: November 14, 2013, 09:46:04 PM by GothicFires »

Offline ladia2287

Re: The concept of a good RPer.
« Reply #58 on: November 14, 2013, 10:04:16 PM »
I see people who say what they expect of their partner in their o/o's. I have read anywhere in this site (of course i have not read everything) that anyone has said that 'if you don't write my way then you aren't a good writer'. In my o/os I explain to potential partners what keeps me happy. I am honest. This is what it takes. If the person looking doesn't like my required list then they would not be happy writing with me and I would not be happy writing with them. These people that you are 'annoyed with' why not just ignore them and move on? Why let strangers even cause you the energy and emotion of being annoyed?

I personally can write a post over 300 words with out even trying. It is rare (but has happened recently) where I couldn't. But it is the line I set because of personal experience. I am not happy when I constantly post longer then my partner. And this does not even consider how good a person is as a writer. I have written with people of various talents. But I know what makes me happy.

A person who expects from a partner what they put into it, is only a person being honest with what they expect and that should be respected, even if you don't agree with it.

I am not taking this personally and my 'you' is a universal reader.

Sometimes i have difficulty thinking of a response.
If i constantly post longer than my partner, it builds resentment. It feels like I am putting in more effort and the one driving the story.
I have never been in a situation, ever where three sentences were required for a post.

It doesn't make me happy. It makes me miserable. I don't have fun.

What I am trying to point out here is that why is it a big deal to anyone that doesn't like someone else's requirements for their writing enjoyment that they have those requirements? If you can't consistently post more than 300 words with out it feeling like a chore then you wouldn't be a good match for me. I've been known to exchange posts over 600 words with partners. I recently wrote a post over 1800 words. If this isn't you we won't be a good match. So why be upset that people like I state our expectations of words or paragraphs?

You either can or cannot meet a potential partner's expectations. If you can, they say hello. If you cannot why give anymore thought to it?

I never said it's a big deal. My lament is for the fact that I have come across numerous writers who have seen fit to put me down because I have dared to explain that my post length will vary. It isn't just one or two. It's quite a significant number. Yes, you may prefer longer posts and writing long posts may come easy for you. But I have been bashed because that is not me. I have been insulted quite blatantly because my concept of Roleplaying doesn't involve trying to come up with pages upon pages of detail for a single post. And I have been made to feel inadequate as a writer and as an RPer because I ONLY wrote three paragraphs, and not eight, nine or ten.

Some writers love long posts. But for me, I've actually felt godmodded by them, and then it simply adds salt to the wound when a partner complains that I'm a crappy writer for no other reason than I couldn't stretch out a simple greeting into a thesis-length post. That is what makes me miserable. You may prefer your style over mine, but I see no excuse to make me feel bad over it.

Offline GothicFires

Re: The concept of a good RPer.
« Reply #59 on: November 14, 2013, 10:18:58 PM »
Yes, that sucks and no one should do that to another person, especially on a site where everyone is supposed to be an adult. When you come across people like that, write them off as jerks and be thankful you didn't get involved in an rp with them. Then find someone with whom you can be happy writing with.

Offline roulette

Re: The concept of a good RPer.
« Reply #60 on: November 14, 2013, 10:28:08 PM »
Quote
I personally can write a post over 300 words with out even trying.
...
It feels like I am putting in more effort and the one driving the story.

This is why. I'm not saying I don't understand the feeling, and I'm not blaming you for having it, and I'm not trying to twist your words or call you a hypocrite. I'm just saying that you are not alone in the association that less is lazy, and while you seem very well-intentioned and understanding, others aren't.

I don't want my partners to think that I'm lazy, but I hear this sort of thing all the time. The people that I want to RP with--usually the people that can make compelling characters and write well--are often verbose. Which is great, fine, sure. I can be verbose.

This post drives me mad with how much I see wrong with it. I'm still fixing it up, fleshing it out, to make it better. It's a starter and an introduction. It's over 1000 words long, and counting. But, admittedly, there's a good bit going on. It's 1000 words of people talking, discussing, moving about. I couldn't possibly write such a thing if I only played one character and not the two that are present. (No, I'm not expecting you to read my post--like I said, it's not even finished!)
1000 words
“Ester, where are my things?”

Amara’s voice was assertive, and yet it trembled. She stood in the doorway of the dimly lit room, shadows cast over her tired form. She let her gaze move around the chamber. The mahogany wardrobe doors hung ajar from their hinges, exposing the bare back of the container. The drawers beneath it were open and just as empty, with only spare bits of clothing that had seemed to have been overlooked. The sheets and decorations were stripped from the bed, where Ester had been sitting moments before. Now, the handmaiden stood, approaching Amara with a soft caution.

“My lady, you were informed of our leave.” The words were as kind and gentle as Ester herself, as though she spoke to a frightened fawn caught in a thorn bush.

They both stood still for several moments, before Amara lowered herself into the cushioned chair that stayed by the hearth. There were no flames now, but still the embers glowed in the hearth, and there was a remnant of heat rising from the coals. It was not yet evening, and light poured in through the open window on the far side of the wall, casting long shadows upon them.

Amara’s body sagged. She had always been a very beautiful young girl, the envy of many of her peers, and even now there was a remnant of beauty in her pitiful state. But the day had worn heavily on her, and the grief that consumed her kept away all hints of a smile. Her green eyes were glossed with emotion, and the bags under her eyes betrayed her weariness. Beneath her extravagant dress, she looked smaller. She was like a child, and she did not belong in such a position.

“I had not thought we would leave so soon,” the young noblewoman said.

Ester nodded, moving forward and placing her hands gently on the blue cloth that covered Amara’s shoulders. “Do not be afraid, my lady,” she told her, offering a warm smile. Amara had been gifted with a lovely handmaiden, a few years her elder, but not one that rivaled her in beauty. Where Amara’s hair was a wavy, light brown, Ester’s was a pale blonde, and fell from her head in long, straight lines. The handmaiden’s smile was her most charming feature, and had always comforted Amara, but now it was of no use.

She shrugged the woman away. “When do we depart?”

“A carriage awaits us.”

“At the gates?”

“No, my lady.”

Amara fell silent once more. Her gut felt as though it would tear apart just then. They would be leaving through one of the smaller entrances, where they would not be seen. It was the greatest insult that could have been laid upon her, then. Her mouth ran dry.

“It is for your protection, my lady.”

“Who should care to bring me harm? Who would dare?”

Ester did not answer. Two men, armored in steel, came to Amara’s doorway. They were taller, and more brutish than she was accustomed to, the decorative point of their helmets nearly scraping the top of the arch. She turned a weary eye on them as they announced their presence.

“Where are my guards?” she asked them.

“They were relieved of their duties, Lady Amara. We shall be your new guards.”

“Why?”

“... With all due respect, my lady, they were spellswords.”

The anger that boiled under Amara’s skin threatened to burn her alive, and she could not even care for the cruel gaze that Ester cast to the men in her defence. She was on her feet in just a moment, pushing past the men when they caught her fearlessly with their metal arms, refusing to let her go. She spewed her bloody curses at them, and they did not blink. All she could find in their eyes was pity.

“I need to speak to the prince,” she demanded. “He will take care of this.”

“I’m sorry, my lady, but it is on the prince’s orders that we are here to escort you.”

The soft words were enough finally to calm Amara. The reminder of her bethrothed’s betrayal. She grit her teeth, pulling the heavy cloak off of its hook and throwing it around her shoulders.

“Please,” she murmured, barely able to contain the contempt in her voice. “Lead the way. Escort me.”

- - - - -

There was too much time to think, in the carriage. Too much silence. Ester did her job well, with a smile that did not falter, always ready to comfort Amara should she need the kindness. But Amara could not stand being coddled in such away, carefully gazed upon as though she were a rabid animal that needed to be watched.

“It is difficult, what’s happened to you.”

Amara glanced up, meeting Ester’s gaze once more. This time, the smile was weak on the woman’s face, and she looked at her lady with only true concern.

“Are you fully aware of what’s happened, Ester?”

The woman shook her head. “No. I was given a bit of information, but not much. People of my station are not given detailed accounts. We are simply expected to obey. I just meant... The suddenness, the relocation. It’s okay to be upset.”

“They called me a Devourer.”

“Pardon, my lady?”

“A Devourer. The common term for someone who consumes the essence of other magic-bearing creatures. They are very few, but they are among the most feared beings in the realms.”

“I thought Devourers were only monsters of legend.”

“As did I.”

Amara could hear the heavy steps of the horses on the cobblestone, the turning of the wheels beneath them. The utter terror of the man’s scream filled her ears still now, and his withered form on the ground greeted her with every blink of her eyes. She had unfathomable fortune that she’d not been put to death for the incident, but she refused to see the worth in living on.

A touch. All it had been: a simple touch, and a man lay dead at her feet.

Perhaps this is a better example. Here is my starter (again, not my best work, but I allowed myself to relax and have fun with this one).
478 words
“Caella, would you bring me another candle?”

“Yes, Your Highness.”

“Quickly, please.”

“Yes, Your Highness.”

Eliana sat before her vanity, toiling with the rich auburn hair that fell around her shoulders. No matter how she tried, she could not get it to set right, no matter how pointlessly silly it was to fuss over her appearance at this hour. For the dim lighting, she could hardly see herself in the mirror despite the number of candles her handmaiden had already lighted on the vanity. She was more likely to set fire to her hair than make a beauty of it.

“If I may, Princess--”

“You may not,” Eliana replied, knowing that Caella would only offer to help her with her hair, as handmaidens are meant to do. But the princess had always been stubborn, and displeased to be touched by any she did not know well. Caella had been her handmaiden for two years now, and Eliana only allowed her near when it was necessary, and the style too complicated to be handled on her own. Nonetheless, she thanked the girl for lighting yet another candle upon the vanity, where now there were eleven.

“Remind me, Caella, of the date?”

“It’s the eve of the Winter Solstice, nearing midnight now.”

Eliana’s pale lips curved into a smile, just enough to form shallow dimples on her cheeks. This was--and would always be--her favorite night of the year. There was a chill that swept in through the window. Normally, there was a curtain to keep out the cold, but tonight she had requested to see the stars. The sky was clear, but there was no moon tonight. All the better; it would be very dark.

Every Winter Solstice, at midnight, she and her brother went unsupervised to the lake. It was a long standing tradition that had roots in their childhood. But this year was the eleventh year, and Eliana was rather fond of the number eleven. The eleventh year, if she could help it, would be far greater than the years that came before it.

Finally--and hesitantly--content with her hair, Eliana rose from her seat, beckoning her handmaiden to tighten her bodice. The princess was nearly four fingers shorter than her handmaid, and this was no surprise. Everything about her was uncharacteristicly small and petite. Tonight she wore what she called her ‘running dress’: it was significantly less bulky than the other gowns she wore during the day. While she did wear a bodice with it, she always wore it much looser for comfort. Its fabrics were a pale blue that glowed when the light caught it, and the bodice itself was only a few shades darker, so that she looked altogether as though a beautiful phantom in the night.

“Don’t wait up for me,” she told her handmaiden, slipping out of her bedroom door.

And this is a post from far later in the story.
48 words
Eliana saw the intent in the eyes, because it was the same intent she’d had. But she would indulge him, if only because she loved the look of victory that always swept over his features. “You wouldn’t,” she taunted him, her lips twitching into a smile as she readied herself to run.

In total, that RP has now come to a total of over 3,000 words on my part alone, and it has only been a few days. I've enjoyed the quick interaction of my characters.



My point is just that, as a whole, I think it's a problem. I think that the effect of this combined mindset a lot of players have is bigger than one individual's behavior. I think it causes insecurities in the masses. I think that people start demanding larger posts because that's what they think they're supposed to do. I don't think everybody has the same thorough insight that you do about why you ask for it, GothicFires. And I think there is an entire atmosphere of insecurity about post size that lives in the RP community, rather than just a few people who you can say are jerks and call it a day. I don't even think that everybody who equates quality with size is a jerk to begin with.

Offline GothicFires

Re: The concept of a good RPer.
« Reply #61 on: November 15, 2013, 07:36:49 AM »
Woah. You just put words in my mouth and I don't appreciate that.

'It FEELS like I am putting in more effort and the one driving the story.' does not equal that I believe the other person is lazy. It does not mean that any other person who feels like this believes the other person is lazy either. It means that it is a feeling that is likely to develop when two partners are not compatible with each other.

My point is just that, as a whole, I think it's a problem. I think that the effect of this combined mindset a lot of players have is bigger than one individual's behavior. I think it causes insecurities in the masses. I think that people start demanding larger posts because that's what they think they're supposed to do. I don't think everybody has the same thorough insight that you do about why you ask for it, GothicFires. And I think there is an entire atmosphere of insecurity about post size that lives in the RP community, rather than just a few people who you can say are jerks and call it a day. I don't even think that everybody who equates quality with size is a jerk to begin with.

You are putting assumptions where you honestly have no right to. It could be that people are demanding larger posts because they know that is what is required for them to be happy. I have a minimum post requirement because after 7 years of writing I know that is the minimum that I will be happy with. I'm not going to fuss about 290. But if someone agrees to write with me and then starts giving me between 50 and 290 post consistently then me and that person have a problem.

I have never had someone complain that my posts where too long, because both me and my partner agreed that is how we would write. If you approached me for a game, then you would have to agree that every one of your posts needed to be at least 300 words long. the 48 word post would be unacceptable. If i approached you for a game, then i would be agreeing to your style of playing where post could vary between 1000 and 48.

There are people out there who are ok with your style of writing. There are people out there who think that anything over 48 words is a waste of time and too long winded. Different things make different people happy. Stop assuming that other adults are not smart enough to be able to determine between what they want to be happy with a story and doing something just because other people are doing it.
« Last Edit: November 15, 2013, 12:36:06 PM by GothicFires »

Offline ladia2287

Re: The concept of a good RPer.
« Reply #62 on: November 15, 2013, 09:34:44 AM »
I think what roulette actually means is that the way some RPers go about explaining their own expectations could actually be taken as a deliberate insult even if it isn't meant that way. It is reasonable enough to draw the conclusion that you were implying that anyone writing a shorter post was lazy and many reasonable adults would draw that same logical conclusion from being told that another player is putting more effort in than they are. I would be downright offended if such a statement had been made to me, because I know that I am putting in effort.

And the fact remains that many RPers who are accustomed to shorter lengths do feel intimidated, myself included, by the sheer number of members who refuse point-blank to work with anyone who cannot consistently write extremely long posts every single time they reply. I've lost count of the number of request threads that I've clicked on thinking that the idea sounded interesting, only to find the requesting member would consider me 'illiterate' (their own words, not mine), simply because my technique is more suited to RPs where the greater majority of posts are under 100 words and longer posts are saved for significant turning points in the story. roulette is not making assumptions at all. She is merely stating an observation and a reasonable conclusion that could be drawn from that observation.

All we short-post RPers ask is for our style to be respected in its own right, just as you expect us to respect your style, and not to have insults and drama every time we dare to point out that we believe that quantity doesn't always equal quality. Everyone is entitled to their opinion GothicFires. All I ask is that long-post RPers respect mine and my own style of writing.

Offline GothicFires

Re: The concept of a good RPer.
« Reply #63 on: November 15, 2013, 10:09:35 AM »
No it's not reasonable enough to draw the conclusion that i was implying that anyone writing a shorter post was lazy. Because I did not say they were lazy. I said we were not compatible. I said that eventually I would grow to resent that incompatibility and that it would not be fun for me.

And respect goes the both ways. When I have read your post about people who take 10 paragraphs to write about a girl in a white dress getting on a boat was nothing but fluff. That isn't respectful of that person's writing style. I just spent 14 paragraphs writing about a man in blue dancing. I could have written it in 2 paragraphs. I probably could have made the entire point of the post in less than 100 words. But it was 14 paragraphs and over 1800 words. The two people I wrote it for (me and my partner) loved it. There was not one wasted word.

So while quantity may not equal quality, the same can be said for a shorter post.

Any time i have seen the word 'illiterate', I associate that with being able to put a subject and predicate together to form a sentence, not how many sentences that a person can string together. If you can read, you've met that requirement.

But what you have been asking is not that you be respected in your own right. If it were that then I wouldn't have felt the need to post again in this thread. What you are asking is that for those who write longer posts to change their requirements and write with anyone regardless of their desires and wants. I respect people who write short posts. I just won't write with them because neither of us would be happy.

My point as always been, stop being unhappy about people who's writing style you are not compatible with and find those who have the same desire and need as yours. No one can make you feel inferior without your consent. If you find someone's remarks degrading, then disregard that person as someone you do not wish to write with and move on.

Edited to ad: You cannot demand respect from another person. The only thing you can do is control your own actions and reactions. I also believe that I have said all I can on the matter.
« Last Edit: November 15, 2013, 10:22:13 AM by GothicFires »

Offline Toral Stimins

Re: The concept of a good RPer.
« Reply #64 on: November 15, 2013, 12:10:37 PM »
This has become a very interesting thread. I'm staying somewhere in the middle I think, that balancing act. But I keep to my words of earlier in the thread, that some writers scare me away by the lengthy cravings they have, which is a shame, because more often than not they could be really good. But that's just me, too impulsive, as always.

Offline roulette

Re: The concept of a good RPer.
« Reply #65 on: November 15, 2013, 03:30:17 PM »
GothicFires, I genuinely hope that you read this post, and that you aren't entirely done with the thread. I'm not even sure that Ladia has fully understood me, which means I've done a very poor job of explaining myself.

I did not put words in your mouth, and I tried to acknowledge that the way I quoted you was a little underhanded, but I wasn't trying to make you look bad. I was trying to point out the FEELING that I do think affects a lot of people. And I said I understand that feeling and I don't think badly of you for having it.

I did not say that you believe short-posters are lazy and unintelligent. I only said that, from what you've said, you realize there is an association. Nobody can blame you or hold you accountable for your feelings, because that's not fair. You grow resentful and begin to feel that you're being ripped off, and so you go ahead and avoid RPing with those people. That is a good and responsible thing to do, because it avoids conflict!

I have the right to make assumptions about what's going on in the RP community as a whole. I am not insulting or disrespecting any person or their individual style. I am not saying that I'm right, or that there aren't other explanations. My thoughts and my opinions stem from the experiences I've had in my own 9 years as a role player.

Basically, this argument isn't about you and whether you're a jerk, because you seem to be the exception, in my opinion. I'm trying to discuss whether this affects a large number of people and what that effect is.

One of those experiences is the use of the words illiterate, semi-literate, literate, and advanced literate to describe role players. I mention again that I have not been complaining about a single person at E. These terms were, when I was there, mostly present at Gaia Online, but I've seen them used with frequency elsewhere. As you said, GothicFires, literate just means you're able to read and write, and there existed people who pointed out as such and modified the way they requested RPs accordingly.

But that doesn't change the fact that there exists a widely-used system that seems to measure somebody's writing ability by the quantity of how much they stuff into a single post. I mean, what greater insult can you throw on an experienced and enthusiastic reader/writer than to call them less than literate? (Semi-literate, I believe would be the correct level here. Illiterate would refer to users that likely use *action* tags and such.)

But look at the title of this thread. It is The Concept of a Good RPer. It is NOT "What do you personally enjoy in a partner." I think it makes you a good RPer if you are able to express your wants clearly and effectively, as you are able to do, GothicFires.

However, I think that long posts does not belong anywhere near this checklist of making a good RPer because it doesn't, and short posts don't make a bad RPer. The OP made a comment that they need practice because their posts aren't long enough and they want to be better.

NO.

Not only because that implies that everybody else who writes short posts needs practice, but because it is bad for you as well. Practice your description. Practice explaining what your character looks like once or twice and how to fit in details at intervals so your partner doesn't forget. It's good to remind one another what the weather's like every now and then.

Practice characterization. Learn about body language and facial expressions so that you can put them to use, and learn how to make your character complex and compelling and interesting. Practice changing them over time and letting them grow and develop as a person would. They might have started out as rather innocent, but you can let them become darker!

Expand your vocabulary. Practice using metaphors, similes, other literary techniques. Practice the five senses. Practice grammar and sentence structure. Practice communication with your partner.

But for the love of writing, please do not practice making your posts longer!

So, GothicFires, at this point I really just want you to understand that I was not insulting you or disrespecting you; nor do I feel that you have insulted or disrespected me. On many of the points you have mentioned, I actually agree with you--but I am discussing something a little different. I do not need you to agree with me. I just don't want there to be any bad feelings arising from a miscommunication.

Offline GothicFires

Re: The concept of a good RPer.
« Reply #66 on: November 15, 2013, 04:46:49 PM »
*sighs*

I have seen people that I would consider short posters use the terms like 'literate partners wanted.' It is not only used by 'elitist long posters'.

What makes a good role player is subject to opinion, each individuals opinion. Which is why when I first posted in this thread, near the front, i pointed out that for each type of poster there is a partner.

You say post lengths do not matter in what it takes to be a go role player. I will disagree and where is why.

You can write something in 100 words and have it be concise, well thought out and well said. But it would bore me to tears. 
Those same 100 words might make someone else hear the angels sing.

I took a class in technical writing in collage. I on occasion do technical writing for a software company. When I do this, I write for a 6th grade reading level because that is what I was taught to aim for. Above that and I would miss most of my audience, below that and I would be insulting.

Part of being a good role player is being able to keep your audience. As needs and reading levels are different for each person, not every person can be a good role player for everyone. So while there is a need for people who make short posts there is also a need for those who make long ones.

As for this widely-used system based on length that is used to judge the capability of a writer, I have not seen it. Just because someone says I want my partners to be able to write 'x' long does not mean that you are a bad writer if you cannot write 'x' long, regardless if you feel it means that. It simply means that you are not compatible with that person.

I am sorry for those people who feel left out by those of us who require a certain post length but I assure you it is not the only obstacle to finding partners on this site. There are people on this site that I would love to write with, yet our ons don't line up well enough to come together on an idea. I could complain that those people (and perhaps myself included) aren't flexible enough to be considered a good role player but that would be a fallacy.

We do not all match. That is life.

If you don't want a chance to write with me and if you don't care if I read what you write, then it's ok if you don't practice making your posts longer. But if you want to write with me or you want me to read and enjoy what you write then you are will have to have the ability to write well and long.

Offline roulette

Re: The concept of a good RPer.
« Reply #67 on: November 15, 2013, 05:53:31 PM »
You say you don't agree with me, but then everything else you say is mostly in line with my thinking as well.

Being a good RPer means being able to understand and work with your partner's expectations. It also means being able to find and negotiate with people that will match your style, and having the ability and guts and patience to turn a player down when you realize the story won't work out, even if you wish it would.

I don't think we should say with an air of broad authority that any post length makes for a good RPer. You would not call me a bad RPer because of the way I write. You would only say that I am a bad match for you.

You recognize that there is a place for short posters and there's a place for long posters and there's a place for people in between or people who are flexible, etc. I'm pretty convinced that we agree.

But we're struggling to communicate. I cannot seem to express my thoughts correctly, and you seem to be picking up messages in my words that I never intended to put out. I never, ever said that the 'literate' method of defining was used by any one group over the other, and nor have I ever, ever said that long posters were elitist. In fact, I did not even say that post length doesn't matter.

What you are discussing in terms of having difficulties finding partners and such is different from what I am talking about. I am not talking about feeling left out because someone doesn't want to RP with me. I do not feel that way and in my posts I am not referring to those people.

I'd like, at this point, to try and steer the conversation back to the 'bigger picture' I was trying to discuss, so from the next paragraph onward, I am talking about something that is no longer a direct part of this debate. I am not trying to prove anyone wrong or change somebody's mind or combat their points... I don't know how to explain what I mean properly, but the response to this next part should not be "I never said" or anything, because the next part is not a response to anything someone has said in particular.



I've been hesitant to use a 'real world' metaphor because in no way do I mean to say that this is an issue as urgent or as widespread as this. But can I use weight as a model for this?

Particularly in the US, we are bombarded with the idea that skinny is better. Skinny is sexy, it's pretty, it's beautiful, it's healthy. Fat is lazy, gross, stupid, incompetent. Fat is ugly.

What is strange about this is that the world is mostly made up (as far as I know) of people who do believe that beauty comes from the inside, or that skinny isn't necessarily good. There are people who actually prefer larger partners. It's generally a good idea to avoid dating people that call you ugly or fat. You'd think that would solve the problem, right?

So why do so many people worry about their weight? Why is it an obsession? Why do we worry about breast size, penis size, and most of all our weight? I can't recall a single time, ever, that anybody has called me fat. I have been told countless times by my friends that I shouldn't lose weight, because I look great. So why should I be insecure about my body?

I'm not saying that people who are insecure are solely victims. It's my responsibility to work on my self-esteem and try to fight off the messages we see in the media about beauty. But there are messages in the media, and there are a lot of people who do point and laugh at people who are larger than their idea of what's attractive, and the people who do that are, in fact, jerks.

I'm not pointing blame at anybody. I'm just asking that we try to stop equating post length with quality. I'm saying that I think there is at atmosphere of insecurity that affects a large amount of RPers, causing them to second-guess themselves even when they make great posts. Not everybody will agree with me about this. Not everybody will even have experienced evidence of this.

That's okay. I have. Between people consistently apologizing to me for their short posts or teasing me for mine, and people using bad writing techniques in an attempt to stretch their posts, I have seen this happen quite a lot, with a number of people. I have had this conversation:

"Hey, why'd your character do so much? I kinda wanted to respond to something he did at the start of the post but then I didn't get the chance."
"Oh... Uh, sorry. I just didn't know what else to put."

My partner felt obligated to make his posts longer, even at the consequence of lessening the quality of his writing and of the RP. Kinda reminds me of how people will sacrifice their health to 'look good.'

Agree with me or disagree with me, but I hope to all the world that you guys actually understand what I'm saying. ;___;

Offline ladia2287

Re: The concept of a good RPer.
« Reply #68 on: November 15, 2013, 08:38:36 PM »
That is a very good point roulette. I thank you for that analogy, because it pretty much sums up exactly what I have been saying.

I do not complain about other writers making long posts. I never did, and I never will on that basis alone. I respect writers who prefer this style. I do not respect writers who describe my style as poor quality or 'boring'.

What I complained about was the overall attitude that a lot of members I have interacted with portray. Some of these members actually approached me, knowing full well my request thread states that I generally write one to four paragraphs per post, only to complain that my posts are not long enough for them. I for one do not want to see another member on this site hide into a hole, scared to look up new RPs because they are worried their post length is not enough. Neither of us has said that it is specifically your intention to portray this, and yet you have taken a defensive stance GothicFires, when there is actually no need to.

You may believe us or disbelieve us, but the point roulette and I are trying to make is that such an atmosphere does exist. Many role players do openly associate literacy with post length, and call short-posters illiterate. That doesn't mean I am saying you do, but it's there. Otherwise, why would a newbie ask how they can practise making their posts longer? They shouldn't need to. Being told that short posts are boring is going to have the same psychological effect as magazines filled with ideas for girls to lose weight, even if they are in a healthy weight range. It's going to diminish confidence and lead to people using poor quality methods to make their lengths what they have been told is acceptable. The emphasis needs to be on the quality of the writing, not the length of it. I'm sure you've come across partners who have tried so hard to match your post length that their writing quality and therefore the story quality is severely diminished by the desperate measures they are taking. I have had partners achieve wonderfully big word counts by taking control of my character without my permission.

I am not, and have never, claimed that short posts are good and long posts are bad. I am insulted and offended that such words were put in my mouth. I never even said that your posts were pure fluff. You turn down anyone whose style doesn't match yours. My style requires flexibility. So why wouldn't I have the right to insist that my partners are flexible?

Insinuations such as 'boring' or 'putting more effort in' are harmful and insulting. I have not used such degrading terms and I would be thankful if others could similarly refrain.

Offline Oniya

  • StoreHouse of Useless Trivia
  • Oracle
  • Carnite
  • *
  • Join Date: Sep 2008
  • Location: Just bouncing through. Hi! City of Roses, Pennsylvania
  • Gender: Female
  • One bad Motokifuka. Also cute and FLUFFY!
  • My Role Play Preferences
  • View My Rolls
  • Referrals: 3
Re: The concept of a good RPer.
« Reply #69 on: November 15, 2013, 08:48:07 PM »
Considering the site for a moment - you're bound to find some people that say bigger is better.  You're also bound to find some people that say size doesn't matter, as long as you know how to use it.  There's bound to be someone on the site that would make you a perfect partner, no matter how long your - post - is. 


Offline DTW

  • Survival Of The Fittest , I ate my twin in the womb.
  • Suspended
  • Enchanter
  • *
  • Join Date: Mar 2010
  • Location: Live From Hell
  • Gender: Male
  • Lions don’t lose sleep over the opinion of sheep
  • My Role Play Preferences
  • View My Rolls
  • Referrals: 0
Re: The concept of a good RPer.
« Reply #70 on: November 17, 2013, 09:59:30 PM »
Just to barge my way in here. I do notice that pacing is a rather  major problem with large post. Not in the amount of time it takes for someone to write them but in how much they tend to get accomplished. They seem to be heavy on thought and not heavy on action.


This sort of goes against the popular writing phrase "Show , Don't Tell." Most people don't think about the world while making a simple sandwhich or putting their clothes on  in the morning. It's one thing to be introspective , it's another thing to make Sartre look like Dean Koontz.

Offline Spermonator

Re: The concept of a good RPer.
« Reply #71 on: November 20, 2013, 04:12:13 AM »
For me a good RPer is someone who can keep my inteterest going and be exicted about our rp.That would mean that the rp partner is more then happy to rp with me.

I don't care about posts leght, really.I hate super long posts.I don't want a fucking novel to be written but enough to get a decent detial in the post.I also hate grammar nazis.

The problem with me is that I get bored veyr easily and that it's a huge issue for me.It's hard to keep my interest very long time.There is a very few people that can do that and they don't roleplay with me anymore.Poeple very often they abandoned my rp's and leave me hanging.I even had rejected after messaging and talking about roleplays with some in that writting style i'm intetrested in.I guess I'm not as good (attractive) enough for roleplaying.

I'm already considering leaving this stie and stop roleplaying.....

Offline roulette

Re: The concept of a good RPer.
« Reply #72 on: November 20, 2013, 11:41:56 AM »
Almost everybody has that experience, Spermonator. I have never played a story to its conclusion, and have had only a very few that got anywhere. It's not the site. It's not the people, and it's not you. It's just the nature of RP, and it happens everywhere that there is RP.

I would advise against developing a bitterness towards it, because you will scare away potential partners.

Offline Spermonator

Re: The concept of a good RPer.
« Reply #73 on: November 21, 2013, 03:30:39 AM »
Maybe you're right roulette, but call me naive if I want a long lasting RP's with lots of sex, passion, romantism and a good story.However I have seen fully completed stories on other site, and eventually the partners start a new rp toegther.I guess then you can see who is willing to make a fully enjoyable story with you that both of you will be not just liking but loving it.Anyway, maybe that's a myth of fidning a really sutiable RP partner for youself to o tones of different roleplays together.

Offline Oniya

  • StoreHouse of Useless Trivia
  • Oracle
  • Carnite
  • *
  • Join Date: Sep 2008
  • Location: Just bouncing through. Hi! City of Roses, Pennsylvania
  • Gender: Female
  • One bad Motokifuka. Also cute and FLUFFY!
  • My Role Play Preferences
  • View My Rolls
  • Referrals: 3
Re: The concept of a good RPer.
« Reply #74 on: November 21, 2013, 09:09:46 AM »
It's not naive.  It's just a matter of finding the people that you click with.  There are people with completed stories here, as well as people that write multiple times with each other (sometimes they even overlap!)