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Author Topic: Health and Taxes (was: Re: government shut down)  (Read 2623 times)

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Offline Bloodied PorcelainTopic starter

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Re: Health and Taxes (was: Re: government shut down)
« Reply #25 on: October 03, 2013, 09:07:49 AM »
Well, there you have it.  Our costs of care are orders of magnitude lower than the US's and even over there healing people is normally an economic winner.

Even if "People will die" isn't enough for you (and dear god, why not?), even if you do want to be ruthlessly fiscal about it all - it still makes sense.

What bothers me about our current system is that not only are we paying WAY more than everyone else on ALL fronts for our care (we pay 18% more in taxes toward health care... and yet pre-ACA sign ups only 23% of the populace was recieving healthcare funded by the gov't), but statistically, our medical care here in the US achieves no better results than in the UK or any other developed country with universal/national care. We're 33rd in life expectancy. =/

Online Dashenka

Re: Health and Taxes (was: Re: government shut down)
« Reply #26 on: October 03, 2013, 09:11:06 AM »
You're both missing my point.

In a system like that, there is little incentive to prevent. Why would I pay for my health insurance when somebody else doesn't and the result is the same. Why would I pay more taxes to help people when there is no incentive from these people to help themselves?


Offline Kythia

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Re: Health and Taxes (was: Re: government shut down)
« Reply #27 on: October 03, 2013, 09:14:32 AM »
What bothers me about our current system is that not only are we paying WAY more than everyone else on ALL fronts for our care (we pay 18% more in taxes toward health care... and yet pre-ACA sign ups only 23% of the populace was recieving healthcare funded by the gov't), but statistically, our medical care here in the US achieves no better results than in the UK or any other developed country with universal/national care. We're 33rd in life expectancy. =/

Yeah, I was just looking at this graph  We're paying less than half of what you are and living two years longer.  Sure, the figures are a couple of years old but I can't imagine that much has changed.  How that fact alone isn't proof enough...

You're both missing my point.

In a system like that, there is little incentive to prevent. Why would I pay for my health insurance when somebody else doesn't and the result is the same. Why would I pay more taxes to help people when there is no incentive from these people to help themselves?

There is an incentive, Dashenka.  Being healthy.  Misterme has spoken about his wife's health problems in this thread, Vekseid has touched on his.  Not that I'm for one second claiming either of those cases are self-inflicted.  Simply that being unwell is miserable.  The incentive to help yourself is to live a life free of agonising pain, worry, hospital appointments and all the other negative accoutrements.  That's a pretty fucking big incentive.

Edit:  Whoops.  Pasted the wrong link.  Corrected now

Offline Bloodied PorcelainTopic starter

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Re: Health and Taxes (was: Re: government shut down)
« Reply #28 on: October 03, 2013, 09:15:46 AM »
You're both missing my point.

In a system like that, there is little incentive to prevent. Why would I pay for my health insurance when somebody else doesn't and the result is the same. Why would I pay more taxes to help people when there is no incentive from these people to help themselves?

We've answered this multiple times. Pure self interest. Keeping yourself healthy gives you a better quality of life. Even if your insurance would pay to handle whatever problem you might have brought upon yourself, most people would rather not have to deal with that problem in the first place. The fact that you are all about a healthy life style just proves my point.

Offline mia h

Re: Health and Taxes (was: Re: government shut down)
« Reply #29 on: October 03, 2013, 09:27:34 AM »
Stop paying for people who are a drain on the economy. Not just you and me, but the government as well.

So the elderly, the indigent in fact anyone on any type of benefits; we should round them all up in a field and shoot them because that way they'll all stop being a drain on the economy. Unless they are funeral directors because they're about to have a really good year.

Online Dashenka

Re: Health and Taxes (was: Re: government shut down)
« Reply #30 on: October 03, 2013, 09:29:27 AM »
Keeping yourself healthy gives you a better quality of life.

Simply that being unwell is miserable.  The incentive to help yourself is to live a life free of agonising pain, worry, hospital appointments and all the other negative accoutrements.  That's a pretty fucking big incentive.

Is that why there are over 1 billion obese adults on the world of which 300 million are critically obese? These people (with a few exceptions) are either stupid for not knowing it's dangerous, or did it themselves.
These people obviously don't care about that as they think or feel their quality of life gets better with more butter and fat.

I agree that being healthy gives me a better quality of life but as long as 1 billion people globally don't give a fuck, why should I? For these people being healthy isn't enough incentive so why on God's green earth should it be for me to pay for them?

I see it as my duty to help those less fortunate then myself. If I could help Misterme's wife, I'd transfer the money instantly. Same for Veks and everybody else who's ill. But for people who do it willingly to themselves, like eating like a pig, or getting behind the wheel when you're totally wasted, I'm sorry I got no sympathy for that and if I could, I would refuse to pay even a penny for these people.

Online TheGlyphstone

Re: Health and Taxes (was: Re: government shut down)
« Reply #31 on: October 03, 2013, 09:34:37 AM »
Believing that all obese people are that way simply because they eat too much is hideously ignorant of medical realities.

Offline Bloodied PorcelainTopic starter

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Re: Health and Taxes (was: Re: government shut down)
« Reply #32 on: October 03, 2013, 09:40:25 AM »
Is that why there are over 1 billion obese adults on the world of which 300 million are critically obese? These people (with a few exceptions) are either stupid for not knowing it's dangerous, or did it themselves.
These people obviously don't care about that as they think or feel their quality of life gets better with more butter and fat.

I agree that being healthy gives me a better quality of life but as long as 1 billion people globally don't give a fuck, why should I? For these people being healthy isn't enough incentive so why on God's green earth should it be for me to pay for them?

I see it as my duty to help those less fortunate then myself. If I could help Misterme's wife, I'd transfer the money instantly. Same for Veks and everybody else who's ill. But for people who do it willingly to themselves, like eating like a pig, or getting behind the wheel when you're totally wasted, I'm sorry I got no sympathy for that and if I could, I would refuse to pay even a penny for these people.

So by your logic, I should be able to deny YOU coverage (assuming you're in a country where it's national health care and not private) because I think you're heartless and I think that's unhealthy? I'm not trying to be mean, I'm just pointing it out. The way you're viewing things isn't what I see as a normal, healthy life view, so I shouldn't have to pay in to the system to make sure you get back to work if your view makes you a target for some grieving widower who just loss his wife because she went in to a diabetic coma and died because you refused to help pay for her healthcare, right?

Believing that all obese people are that way simply because they eat too much is hideously ignorant of medical realities.

+10000000000

Offline Torch

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Re: Health and Taxes (was: Re: government shut down)
« Reply #33 on: October 03, 2013, 09:41:21 AM »
Believing that all obese people are that way simply because they eat too much is hideously ignorant of medical realities.

Not all, but yes, obesity is, for most people (not all but most), a self-inflicted state (i.e. eating too much and exercising too little).

We have a 35% adult obesity rate in the US. Very few of those cases are due to medication side effects, hormonal side effects, slow metabolism and the like.

The simple fact is, if you eat too much and move too little, you will gain weight. Period.

Online Dashenka

Re: Health and Taxes (was: Re: government shut down)
« Reply #34 on: October 03, 2013, 09:45:17 AM »
Believing that all obese people are that way simply because they eat too much is hideously ignorant of medical realities.

That's why I bracketed a few exceptions. I know some people are clinically obese.

The others are 99% self inflicted because they eat the wrong shit and are lazy as a pig. If you drive too fast, your chances of having an accident are higher. If you jump of the 8th floor of a building, you most likely die.

Unless people are too stupid to realize that (which would technically make it clinical) obesity is something you do to yourself.

Offline Bloodied PorcelainTopic starter

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Re: Health and Taxes (was: Re: government shut down)
« Reply #35 on: October 03, 2013, 09:48:34 AM »
Not all, but yes, obesity is, for most people (not all but most), a self-inflicted state (i.e. eating too much and exercising too little).

We have a 35% adult obesity rate in the US. Very few of those cases are due to medication side effects, hormonal side effects, slow metabolism and the like.

The simple fact is, if you eat too much and move too little, you will gain weight. Period.

Technically, that's not entirely true. There is plenty of evidence to support that a lot of it is genetic predisposition. Some people are naturally predisposed to having a faster metabolism, regardless of how active they are or what they eat. Some people have a slower metabolism for the same reason. There are also a TON of people running around the US right now with undiagnosed medical issues that are most likely contributing to their weight problems. Then you have to take in to account how difficult it is to get food that is honestly good for you at a price that isn't highway robery. My last trip to the grocery store was largely meet and fresh fruits and veggies, as well as all organic snacks and whatnot for our lunches. Enough for myself and my son for three to four weeks. Do you know what it cost me? Almost 200 bucks. That's a LOT for a single person to bear the brunt of paying for. People opt to eat food that isn't good for them because it's better for their wallet in the long run, not because they "just don't want to eat healthy". Then you get in to the issues where people's pallets become conditioned to get used to certain types and quality foods and when they can afford better food, they don't like the taste of it because of that. There's dozens of reasons why obesity exists, and the "eating too much, working out too little" is just the easy excuse people latch on to because it gives them a chance to feel superior.

Offline Kythia

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Re: Health and Taxes (was: Re: government shut down)
« Reply #36 on: October 03, 2013, 09:51:35 AM »
Technically, that's not entirely true. There is plenty of evidence to support that a lot of it is genetic predisposition. Some people are naturally predisposed to having a faster metabolism, regardless of how active they are or what they eat. Some people have a slower metabolism for the same reason. There are also a TON of people running around the US right now with undiagnosed medical issues that are most likely contributing to their weight problems. Then you have to take in to account how difficult it is to get food that is honestly good for you at a price that isn't highway robery. My last trip to the grocery store was largely meet and fresh fruits and veggies, as well as all organic snacks and whatnot for our lunches. Enough for myself and my son for three to four weeks. Do you know what it cost me? Almost 200 bucks. That's a LOT for a single person to bear the brunt of paying for. People opt to eat food that isn't good for them because it's better for their wallet in the long run, not because they "just don't want to eat healthy". Then you get in to the issues where people's pallets become conditioned to get used to certain types and quality foods and when they can afford better food, they don't like the taste of it because of that. There's dozens of reasons why obesity exists, and the "eating too much, working out too little" is just the easy excuse people latch on to because it gives them a chance to feel superior.

Precisely.  Add to that the fact that obesity is, at least over here, defined purely in terms of BMI which is a notoriously shitty measurement (waist/hip ratio is much better) and stats on "percentage of the population who are obese" are pretty much meaningless

Online Dashenka

Re: Health and Taxes (was: Re: government shut down)
« Reply #37 on: October 03, 2013, 09:56:04 AM »
If obesity is NOT self inflicted and thus has another reason, why does every continent in the world suffer from it except Africa? Is that because they have the healthiest diet? No. It's because they excercise a lot and don't eat too much fat.

But all that is not the point. It's about whether or not we should pay for people who do stupid things regarding their health.

Offline Kythia

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Re: Health and Taxes (was: Re: government shut down)
« Reply #38 on: October 03, 2013, 09:58:11 AM »
If obesity is NOT self inflicted and thus has another reason, why does every continent in the world suffer from it except Africa? Is that because they have the healthiest diet? No. It's because they excercise a lot and don't eat too much fat.

Yup.  Healthy living is what I think of when I think of sub-Saharan Africa.  Just pure, wall to wall healthiness.

I think I I'm out.  Nice talking with you, Bloodied and Dashenka.

Offline Torch

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Re: Health and Taxes (was: Re: government shut down)
« Reply #39 on: October 03, 2013, 09:59:15 AM »
Technically, that's not entirely true.

No, actually it is true.

The number one factor in the obesity epidemic, according to both the NIH and the CDC is energy imbalance, i.e. taking in more energy or calories than you expend.

NIH - What Causes Obesity?

CDC - Obesity, Causes and Consequences

I'm not denying that there are other factors involved for some folks, and the CDC and the NIH recognizes those factors. The fact remains, however, that energy imbalance is within the control of most adults.

Offline Bloodied PorcelainTopic starter

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Re: Health and Taxes (was: Re: government shut down)
« Reply #40 on: October 03, 2013, 10:01:38 AM »
If obesity is NOT self inflicted and thus has another reason, why does every continent in the world suffer from it except Africa? Is that because they have the healthiest diet? No. It's because they excercise a lot and don't eat too much fat.

But all that is not the point. It's about whether or not we should pay for people who do stupid things regarding their health.

That is a gloriously ignorant view point. PLEASE go look up the statistics on the number of people living in poverty in Africa before you try to use their situation to support your argument. They don't have the cheap food substitutes we do, they don't have enough food period, that's why they don't "suffer" from it. Nevermind the fact that the dramatically lower quality of life in most of Africa means a huge portion of their population doesn't live past childhood.

Poverty Facts and Stats

Quote
Around 27-28 percent of all children in developing countries are estimated to be underweight or stunted. The two regions that account for the bulk of the deficit are South Asia and sub-Saharan Africa.

If current trends continue, the Millennium Development Goals target of halving the proportion of underweight children will be missed by 30 million children, largely because of slow progress in Southern Asia and sub-Saharan Africa.

Quote
Infectious diseases continue to blight the lives of the poor across the world. An estimated 40 million people are living with HIV/AIDS, with 3 million deaths in 2004. Every year there are 350–500 million cases of malaria, with 1 million fatalities: Africa accounts for 90 percent of malarial deaths and African children account for over 80 percent of malaria victims worldwide

Quote
Water problems affect half of humanity:

•Some 1.1 billion people in developing countries have inadequate access to water, and 2.6 billion lack basic sanitation.
•Almost two in three people lacking access to clean water survive on less than $2 a day, with one in three living on less than $1 a day.
•More than 660 million people without sanitation live on less than $2 a day, and more than 385 million on less than $1 a day.
•Access to piped water into the household averages about 85% for the wealthiest 20% of the population, compared with 25% for the poorest 20%.
•1.8 billion people who have access to a water source within 1 kilometre, but not in their house or yard, consume around 20 litres per day. In the United Kingdom the average person uses more than 50 litres of water a day flushing toilets (where average daily water usage is about 150 liters a day. The highest average water use in the world is in the US, at 600 liters day.)
•Some 1.8 million child deaths each year as a result of diarrhoea
•The loss of 443 million school days each year from water-related illness.
•Close to half of all people in developing countries suffering at any given time from a health problem caused by water and sanitation deficits.
•Millions of women spending several hours a day collecting water.
•To these human costs can be added the massive economic waste associated with the water and sanitation deficit.… The costs associated with health spending, productivity losses and labour diversions … are greatest in some of the poorest countries. Sub-Saharan Africa loses about 5% of GDP, or some $28.4 billion annually, a figure that exceeds total aid flows and debt relief to the region in 2003.

Online Dashenka

Re: Health and Taxes (was: Re: government shut down)
« Reply #41 on: October 03, 2013, 10:03:01 AM »
So what is the reason for obesity then?


But again, that's not the discussion, nor is it relevant to my point.

Offline Oniya

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Re: Health and Taxes (was: Re: government shut down)
« Reply #42 on: October 03, 2013, 10:03:26 AM »
If obesity is NOT self inflicted and thus has another reason, why does every continent in the world suffer from it except Africa? Is that because they have the healthiest diet? No. It's because they excercise a lot and don't eat too much fat.

But all that is not the point. It's about whether or not we should pay for people who do stupid things regarding their health.

Okay.  The average person living on welfare has to deal with having a limited food budget.  This video shows a congressman attempting to make the standard foodstamp allowance cover groceries, and the decisions of what he has to leave off the menu in order to make the amount he has to spend stretch far enough.



It's one thing to say that people 'do stupid things to their health', and another to realize that in some cases they might be forced into doing those 'stupid things' just to survive the week.

Online gaggedLouise

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Re: Health and Taxes (was: Re: government shut down)
« Reply #43 on: October 03, 2013, 10:05:00 AM »
If obesity is NOT self inflicted and thus has another reason, why does every continent in the world suffer from it except Africa? Is that because they have the healthiest diet? No. It's because they excercise a lot and don't eat too much fat.

But all that is not the point. It's about whether or not we should pay for people who do stupid things regarding their health.


How about: because most Africans can't afford to eat food with a good deal of fat? Even a healthy dose of it - there's nothing intrinsically bad about fat, we need it to be able to grow our bodies and stay active. Many Africans (or people living on very low incomes elsewhere, as Oniya pointed out) can't afford to eat even healthy food, or eat enough to fill their needs of nutrition and energy, but Africa today doesn't have bear the medical coverage it would need and most people live in the countryside or in urban slums, so their health troubles (on average in large populations) are likely to go unattended anyway.
« Last Edit: October 03, 2013, 10:08:52 AM by gaggedLouise »

Offline Bloodied PorcelainTopic starter

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Re: Health and Taxes (was: Re: government shut down)
« Reply #44 on: October 03, 2013, 10:06:07 AM »
No, actually it is true.

The number one factor in the obesity epidemic, according to both the NIH and the CDC is energy imbalance, i.e. taking in more energy or calories than you expend.

NIH - What Causes Obesity?

CDC - Obesity, Causes and Consequences

I'm not denying that there are other factors involved for some folks, and the CDC and the NIH recognizes those factors. The fact remains, however, that energy imbalance is within the control of most adults.

My point is that you're looking at the surface "fix" and not looking at the underlying cause. Healthy food is expensive and it really doesn't matter how much you exersize, if your food isn't good enough quality, all you'll do is make yourself even MORE sick because your body doesn't have the kind of nutrients and vitamins it NEEDS to offset all the physical activity you're doing and you end up with deficiencies and even more sick than when you started out.

Incidentally, the first link you gave supports everything I've said about environmental issues being a massive contributing factor:

Quote
Environment
Our environment doesn't support healthy lifestyle habits; in fact, it encourages obesity. Some reasons include:

•Lack of neighborhood sidewalks and safe places for recreation. Not having area parks, trails, sidewalks, and affordable gyms makes it hard for people to be physically active.
•Work schedules. People often say that they don't have time to be physically active because of long work hours and time spent commuting.
•Oversized food portions. Americans are exposed to huge food portions in restaurants, fast food places, gas stations, movie theaters, supermarkets, and even at home. Some of these meals and snacks can feed two or more people. Eating large portions means too much energy IN. Over time, this will cause weight gain if it isn't balanced with physical activity.
•Lack of access to healthy foods. Some people don't live in neighborhoods that have supermarkets that sell healthy foods, such as fresh fruits and vegetables. Or, for some people, these healthy foods are too costly.
•Food advertising. Americans are surrounded by ads from food companies. Often children are the targets of advertising for high-calorie, high-fat snacks and sugary drinks. The goal of these ads is to sway people to buy these high-calorie foods, and often they do.
Genes and Family History
Studies of identical twins who have been raised apart show that genes have a strong influence on a person's weight. Overweight and obesity tend to run in families. Your chances of being overweight are greater if one or both of your parents are overweight or obese.

Your genes also may affect the amount of fat you store in your body and where on your body you carry the extra fat. Because families also share food and physical activity habits, a link exists between genes and the environment.

Children adopt the habits of their parents. A child who has overweight parents who eat high-calorie foods and are inactive will likely become overweight too. However, if the family adopts healthy food and physical activity habits, the child's chance of being overweight or obese is reduced.
« Last Edit: October 03, 2013, 10:08:45 AM by Bloodied Porcelain »

Online Dashenka

Re: Health and Taxes (was: Re: government shut down)
« Reply #45 on: October 03, 2013, 10:11:42 AM »
My point is that you're looking at the surface "fix" and not looking at the underlying cause. Healthy food is expensive and it really doesn't matter how much you exersize, if your food isn't good enough quality, all you'll do is make yourself even MORE sick because your body doesn't have the kind of nutrients and vitamins it NEEDS to offset all the physical activity you're doing and you end up with deficiencies and even more sick than when you started out.

'Healthy' food isn't expensive.

Bread and milk isn't expensive, nor is water. How about having a peanutbutter sandwich instead of doubles fries with mayonaise? Or boil your potatoes rather than fry them. Or instead of having a soda drink, have a glass of water. It's not about 'healthy' food because all that biological shit is indeed expensive (and fraudulent) but normal food isn't expensive if you know what to get and it doesn't make you fat if you at least walk 30 minutes a day which most people do.


But can we get back to the point of the health insurances rather than to get bogged down into obesity?

Offline Retribution

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Re: Health and Taxes (was: Re: government shut down)
« Reply #46 on: October 03, 2013, 10:16:01 AM »
Uh guys *raises hand* I think the fact that this thread has now somehow turned into a discussion of a supposed national vendetta against the poor and the fat who are poor and fat through no fault of their own sort of shows how groups like the Tea Party gain traction. This whole discussion just suddenly turned very strange from my PoV.

Online Dashenka

Re: Health and Taxes (was: Re: government shut down)
« Reply #47 on: October 03, 2013, 10:17:49 AM »
It did.

Offline Vekseid

Re: Health and Taxes (was: Re: government shut down)
« Reply #48 on: October 03, 2013, 10:18:44 AM »
I agree but let's say, again for arguments sake, that I work hard to keep my health up. I eat properly, I live healthy etc etc and I got a health insurance just in case. Why should my tax money be spend on people who drink, smoke and lunch and dine at McDonalds without working out?

Sin taxes are supposed to cover the added costs of these things, though obviously in the US this is more true for smokers, middling for alcohol (small amounts are even beneficial) and not at all for fast food (but the actual causes of the obesity epidemic in the US are only now being worked out - and it has little to do with overeating).

Quote
Spend my tax money on people who really need it and who 'deserve' it.

I've seen libertarians seriously argue for not funding vaccinations or infectious disease containment.

And they root for defunding America's only method of actually combating bioterrorism.

Quote
The point I'm trying to make is you either treat everybody as (roughly) equal, or you treat them as different as they are. Not a bit in between like I feel is going on now in the US.

If it weren't for our military expenditures, we could probably get away with nothing more than healthy taxes on unearned income, a modest amount of sin and property taxes (in particular, intellectual property and radio spectrum), small tariffs (I support free trade in general, but I do think an e.g. flat 5% global tariff would help boost local stability and independence in general - and would consequently be a good thing), and revenue from government services and the Federal Reserve.

Right now, though, we give unearned income ridiculously preferential treatment, and a lot of benefits programs are designed as traps to keep the extremely poor 'content' and fighting against the middle class rather than outright rioting or working to escape their condition.

Offline Vekseid

Re: Health and Taxes (was: Re: government shut down)
« Reply #49 on: October 03, 2013, 10:19:18 AM »
figure I'ma just split the topic, moment peoples >_>