You are either not logged in or not registered with our community. Click here to register.
 
December 08, 2016, 10:08:34 PM

Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?

Login with username, password and session length

Click here if you are having problems.
Default Wide Screen Beige Lilac Rainbow Black & Blue October Send us your theme!

Hark!  The Herald!
Holiday Issue 2016

Wiki Blogs Dicebot

Author Topic: Health and Taxes (was: Re: government shut down)  (Read 2620 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Serephino

Re: Health and Taxes (was: Re: government shut down)
« Reply #100 on: October 03, 2013, 02:09:30 PM »
Education would be a good place to start.  Other than that I don't know of any solutions.  My mom did take advantage of the help that is available.  For a while we lived off Social Security death benefits, and she went to college full time.  Between state and federal grants it didn't cost her anything.  That did allow her to go from cleaning hospital rooms to being a book keeper for a restaurant.  It made a big difference. 

Offline Kythia

  • Noooo-one Fights like Kythia no-one bites like Kythia
  • Dame
  • Enchanter
  • *
  • Join Date: Oct 2012
  • Gender: Female
  • No one chain smokes Marlboro lights like Kythia
  • My Role Play Preferences
  • View My Rolls
  • Referrals: 1
Re: Health and Taxes (was: Re: government shut down)
« Reply #101 on: October 03, 2013, 02:15:10 PM »
The problem there, and Louise might be able to talk more about that, is inflation.  If everyone has a degree, my degree doesn't make me stand out so I need a masters.  Floors still need cleaning, fast food still needs serving.  Now the lowest education has is a degree rather than GCSE's, all it means is that people with degrees are doing those low paid jobs. 

Offline Dashenka

Re: Health and Taxes (was: Re: government shut down)
« Reply #102 on: October 03, 2013, 02:18:14 PM »
I'd employ you all if I could :)

Offline Dashenka

Re: Health and Taxes (was: Re: government shut down)
« Reply #103 on: October 03, 2013, 02:40:27 PM »
After all the hardships and negativity....


Oh, think twice, it's just another day for
you and me in paradise


- Phil Collins - Another Day In Paradise - 1989

Offline Oniya

  • StoreHouse of Useless Trivia
  • Oracle
  • Carnite
  • *
  • Join Date: Sep 2008
  • Location: Just bouncing through. Hi! City of Roses, Pennsylvania
  • Gender: Female
  • One bad Motokifuka. Also cute and FLUFFY!
  • My Role Play Preferences
  • View My Rolls
  • Referrals: 3
Re: Health and Taxes (was: Re: government shut down)
« Reply #104 on: October 03, 2013, 02:48:42 PM »
Probably the whole lyrics to that song are relevant.



And this one:


Offline Retribution

  • Lord
  • Addict
  • *
  • Join Date: Feb 2013
  • Location: First star to the right straight on till morning
  • Gender: Male
  • When I'm good I'm good when I'm bad I'm better
  • My Role Play Preferences
  • View My Rolls
  • Referrals: 0
Re: Health and Taxes (was: Re: government shut down)
« Reply #105 on: October 03, 2013, 03:38:26 PM »
In other threads on this forum I have touted education. Many get well angry at such a stance and I admit college is not for everyone. What I would like to see is everyone learn a trade. I do not care what it is but some sort of system where everyone learns to do something. I have a good friend who tried college and found it was not for him. But he went to enough community college in a trade school type capacity that he learned to be a machinist. While he is not wealthy his skills are always in demand and he is never out of work for long.

Offline Valthazar

  • Writer ͏͏● Educator ● Gamer ● Roleplayer ● Debater ● Tech Connoisseur ● Gym Rat ● Procrastinator ● As they say, "A simple PM may lead to lifelong friendship" ▬▬▬▬
  • Suspended
  • Seducer
  • *
  • Join Date: Mar 2013
  • Location: United States
  • Gender: Male
  • Proceed and be bold. Embrace your insecurities.
  • My Role Play Preferences
  • View My Rolls
  • Referrals: 0
Re: Health and Taxes (was: Re: government shut down)
« Reply #106 on: October 03, 2013, 04:41:20 PM »
Education is not the answer for poverty right now in the United States.  As consumers, we need to evaluate the returns on investing in college versus the costs.  If one can afford college, there are certainly many advantages.  In solving this, federal loans are now pretty much guaranteed for anyone who wants to go to college - but this has now created a scenario where there is an unlimited demand for college, meaning that as a business, the supplier (college) will naturally elevate their costs.

Basically, the economic return on a college degree is far less today, and it is important to educate potential students on evaluating the cost/benefit, and whether it is worth it.  They might be far more productive to society doing other things like Retribution said - learning a trade (which is very much in demand) like plumbing, HVAC, welding, etc.

Offline Bloodied PorcelainTopic starter

  • E's Masked Lady ~ Swamp Witch ~ Sisterkitten ~ Little Red ~ Crowley ~ Baby Girl ~ Muse Crack ~ Code Monkey ~ LLS ~ Favorite ~ Good Girl ~ Pointe Shoes & Combat Boots
  • Dame
  • Addict
  • *
  • Join Date: Apr 2012
  • Location: Catching 'em all.
  • Gender: Female
  • Captain Of Team Fuck Up Your Sheets
  • My Role Play Preferences
  • View My Rolls
  • Referrals: 1
Re: Health and Taxes (was: Re: government shut down)
« Reply #107 on: October 03, 2013, 04:45:42 PM »
Education is not the answer for poverty right now in the United States.  As consumers, we need to evaluate the returns on investing in college versus the costs.  If one can afford college, there are certainly many advantages.  In solving this, federal loans are now pretty much guaranteed for anyone who wants to go to college - but this has now created a scenario where there is an unlimited demand for college, meaning that as a business, the supplier (college) will naturally elevate their costs.

Basically, the economic return on a college degree is far less today, and it is important to educate potential students on evaluating the cost/benefit, and whether it is worth it.  They might be far more productive to society doing other things like Retribution said - learning a trade (which is very much in demand) like plumbing, HVAC, welding, etc.

Which is why I said education should be free, not something the private sector should be providing. Countries who offer higher education for free are in infinitely better shape than we are in most cases when it comes to putting people in to good paying jobs.

Offline Dashenka

Re: Health and Taxes (was: Re: government shut down)
« Reply #108 on: October 03, 2013, 05:02:38 PM »
To lighten up the mood again




Offline Mithlomwen

  • ~ E's resident kilt inspector ~ ~ Atropos ~
  • Goddess
  • Carnite
  • *
  • Join Date: Oct 2008
  • Location: Somewhere between the dark and the light...
  • Gender: Female
  • ~ Thunder only happens when it's raining.... ~
  • My Role Play Preferences
  • View My Rolls
  • Referrals: 0
Re: Health and Taxes (was: Re: government shut down)
« Reply #109 on: October 03, 2013, 05:53:07 PM »
In other threads on this forum I have touted education. Many get well angry at such a stance and I admit college is not for everyone. What I would like to see is everyone learn a trade. I do not care what it is but some sort of system where everyone learns to do something. I have a good friend who tried college and found it was not for him. But he went to enough community college in a trade school type capacity that he learned to be a machinist. While he is not wealthy his skills are always in demand and he is never out of work for long.

I realize that this clip is a couple of years old, but I think that Mike Rowe brings up some very valid points.  It's good to see someone championing a campaign to make skilled trades more important than they have been in a long while.


Offline Valthazar

  • Writer ͏͏● Educator ● Gamer ● Roleplayer ● Debater ● Tech Connoisseur ● Gym Rat ● Procrastinator ● As they say, "A simple PM may lead to lifelong friendship" ▬▬▬▬
  • Suspended
  • Seducer
  • *
  • Join Date: Mar 2013
  • Location: United States
  • Gender: Male
  • Proceed and be bold. Embrace your insecurities.
  • My Role Play Preferences
  • View My Rolls
  • Referrals: 0
Re: Health and Taxes (was: Re: government shut down)
« Reply #110 on: October 03, 2013, 07:13:34 PM »
Which is why I said education should be free, not something the private sector should be providing. Countries who offer higher education for free are in infinitely better shape than we are in most cases when it comes to putting people in to good paying jobs.

I work in higher education, and what you are describing is already unfortunately occurring through guaranteed loans to anyone interested in going to college (many of whom are not financially literate).  In other words, an individual from an impoverished family, who graduates from high school, or obtains a GED, can "go to college" regardless of his/her SAT scores, high school GPA, etc.

Admissions criteria no longer mean anything anymore.  Sure, there are  few select private universities, ivy league schools, and "public ivys" that still have respectable admissions, but by and large, anyone who has a GED or high school diploma can enroll in college now.

Is this a good thing?  Absolutely not.  The college-level curriculum has been dissolved to almost shameful levels nowadays, and seeing the types of writing samples the average student here produces would make you think you were proofreading a middle school English essay.  Even the types of assignments given in introductory level ENG 101 classes are to write two-page assignments, or to provide one's "opinion" on a topic.  My point is that in our effort to expand access to higher education, we have essentially made the college diploma worthless.  As Kythia described, this is the inflationary phenomenon of academic credentials.

If college became free, this problem would increase on a dramatic-scale.  My personal advice to high school students is to not bother with college unless you plan to pursue a graduate degree and/or a doctoral level education.  Many individuals are extremely skilled in a myriad of ways - though they may be weak academically.  Unless we break out of this myopic view that college is a necessity for everyone, we won't make much progress on this front.

Right now, the people who went into welding and HVAC have more job security than the people who simply got a 4-year B.A.

Offline Vekseid

Re: Health and Taxes (was: Re: government shut down)
« Reply #111 on: October 03, 2013, 07:48:54 PM »
If I had a dime for every story from a member whose diploma turned out to be pointless...

Studies show that 15 years of education (from Kindergarten -> 2 year degree or similar tech program in the US) seems to be ideal. Outside of that there seems to be little benefit for most people - pre-school does not help, nor does just getting an advanced degree for the sake of it.

Offline Pumpkin Seeds

Re: Health and Taxes (was: Re: government shut down)
« Reply #112 on: October 03, 2013, 11:34:45 PM »
I have little actual experience with education and teaching aside from being a student for much of my life.  To my knowledge the United States has dumbed down the education system at all levels from an academic pursuit while at the same time failed to train people for actual work.  Listening to a few programs on this topic, many employers not only seek employees outside the United States due to education but also because other countries place emphasis on work experience and training.  More internship, more real world work experience and so on.  So I do think this country should push forward trade school educations, technical colleges and really should get behind online education/certifications. 

As for loans and such, Id actually love to see a system where the government offers payment options based on civil service.  Nurses can work in public/low income areas at clinics and hospitals to pay off their debt, teachers can do the same along with engineers/police officers/etc. etc.  I think this would give students the real world experience employers are searching for while also getting them out of debt and giving the United States a ready supply of workers in needed areas.

Offline Valthazar

  • Writer ͏͏● Educator ● Gamer ● Roleplayer ● Debater ● Tech Connoisseur ● Gym Rat ● Procrastinator ● As they say, "A simple PM may lead to lifelong friendship" ▬▬▬▬
  • Suspended
  • Seducer
  • *
  • Join Date: Mar 2013
  • Location: United States
  • Gender: Male
  • Proceed and be bold. Embrace your insecurities.
  • My Role Play Preferences
  • View My Rolls
  • Referrals: 0
Re: Health and Taxes (was: Re: government shut down)
« Reply #113 on: October 04, 2013, 01:35:28 AM »
There's unfortunately a lot of false propaganda in K-12 education. 

One is the notion that a more educated populous (in science, history, general knowledge, etc.) results in a more economically prosperous workforce.  While we certainly do need an upper echelon of the population to become intellectuals, become entrepreneurs, and be the 'drivers' of society, there really isn't any economic gain in hyper-emphasizing purely-academic subjects in K-12 for the masses.  It's very desirable for everyone to be academically smart, of course, but we should not unilaterally focus on this at the cost of much more relevant skills for the masses.  For example, why aren't there core-educational requirements in high school on personal financial management, economics (often an elective), stock market investing, job placement initiatives in senior year, explanation of pros/cons of college, and so on.  Currently, we are told of this "competition" with India and China in math and science achievement, and then transform our national curriculum to focus on very academic fields with no real relevance to the students' future personal success.  Which brings me to my next point...

There's this myth that we need more students interested in STEM fields (Science, Technology, Engineering, and Mathematics).  Certainly, there's some truth in the importance of STEM fields - but the solution is way off the mark.  The reality is that most STEM jobs go to people with graduate degrees and PhDs, and there are far, far more graduates per year than jobs openings available.  If anything the solution to the "American STEM Crisis" is a discussion that should be had among college educators, and not K-12.  The reality is that the average person in the US would benefit far more by emphasizing more relevant, and "real-world" topics than physics, chemistry, and biology.  Here's an excellent article by the Institute of Electrical and Electronics Engineers discussing the STEM myth:

http://spectrum.ieee.org/at-work/education/the-stem-crisis-is-a-myth

The reality is that Americans have never really been very 'smart' or 'educated' - yet we were the most prosperous country for most of the 20th century.  Most K-12 teachers get very limited, if any, business education.  If more were aware about the economic realities their students will face after graduation, their approach would be very different.

Offline Vekseid

Re: Health and Taxes (was: Re: government shut down)
« Reply #114 on: October 04, 2013, 02:07:23 AM »
I don't think you're going to find much argument against "The overemphasis on higher education in the US is BS."

At the same time, with an increasingly automated productive force, assuming we're not headed for some dystopian future (though there are certainly people who are trying) - there's not going to be much else for people to do besides where they can direct themselves, and education - even if it takes a form rather different than the indoctrination we see today - is going to have to be some part of that.

Offline Valthazar

  • Writer ͏͏● Educator ● Gamer ● Roleplayer ● Debater ● Tech Connoisseur ● Gym Rat ● Procrastinator ● As they say, "A simple PM may lead to lifelong friendship" ▬▬▬▬
  • Suspended
  • Seducer
  • *
  • Join Date: Mar 2013
  • Location: United States
  • Gender: Male
  • Proceed and be bold. Embrace your insecurities.
  • My Role Play Preferences
  • View My Rolls
  • Referrals: 0
Re: Health and Taxes (was: Re: government shut down)
« Reply #115 on: October 04, 2013, 02:29:05 AM »
Yeah my only point was that most jobs people have today never really needed college 30-40 years ago, so hopefully there is a movement at some point to reverse this trend.  Actually, it's beneficial for employers to hire non-college workers, because they can pay them a lower full-time wage, as compared to a college grad (but still it's a steady job, so can't really complain).  So there's definitely some incentive in such a movement.

Biggest issue is to get kids graduating high school to have good writing skills.

Offline Vekseid

Re: Health and Taxes (was: Re: government shut down)
« Reply #116 on: October 04, 2013, 02:56:54 AM »
Currently, employers are using it as a filter - fewer and fewer people are needed to produce the same goods and services, they aren't being paid more for it, and there is rampant opposition to increasing taxes to reinvest into unspent labor, as employers and investors are not doing this directly.

Eventually this cycle is going to have to stop. Either nearly everyone gets access to this automation, or we stop being a democracy, in the end. Right now the former is winning in real terms, even if the latter has the upper hand politically.

Offline Retribution

  • Lord
  • Addict
  • *
  • Join Date: Feb 2013
  • Location: First star to the right straight on till morning
  • Gender: Male
  • When I'm good I'm good when I'm bad I'm better
  • My Role Play Preferences
  • View My Rolls
  • Referrals: 0
Re: Health and Taxes (was: Re: government shut down)
« Reply #117 on: October 04, 2013, 05:49:43 AM »
The biologist blinks and smiles "I am not so sure science is irrelevant." On a serious note and having said that my degree is a BA not a BS so it was more rounded. That was with intent so as not to get boxed in so to speak. But I hate to say this probably 80% of those who start a degree in science just plain are not going to finish it. Back in the day when I was in school I saw many who just plain failed at pursuit of a hard science degree. Also you need to have some place you are going to go with this degree, a plan if you will. I ended up more or less where I meant to when I started out. I do not use my degree overly much in my work but I am indeed employed in a position that requires a science degree. I am an exception because so many go to school with the vague idea that if they get a degree a job will come. Or how many kids going to college figure it is they do not really know what they want to do but they know they need a degree or think they know that.

Now as the parent of teens I am looking at it from another angle. Both my kids are planning on science degrees. My son who heads off to a pretty high level science college next year is following in my footsteps. Guess what? He is already working in the field part time and is getting on a career track so there is a job waiting for him. He has a plan. My daughter is likely going to be bio major also when she hits college in four years, but she has planned on being a veterinarian forever so she will probably be living with me forever lol.

The point is though they both have plans. I have two other young relatives who both started college. Both partied a lot for one year and dropped out and are now working at McDonalds. Guess what they both went to school with no idea what they were going to do other than that they thought they needed a degree. So if you are going off to school for god's sake have some clue what you want to do and some prospect of employment when you are done.