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Author Topic: government shut down  (Read 13048 times)

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Offline dragonsen

Re: government shut down
« Reply #500 on: October 18, 2013, 01:01:21 PM »
This entire episode with the government shut down and the debt ceiling brought to mind Greece defaulting on their debt. That put the EU into a tail spin a few months back. If a relatively small country like Greece can do such damage when they default, imagine what would happen if the US defaults. I'm not saying that the US is going to default but the debt ceiling does limit how much bonds and such the government can produce. What would happen if those T-bills are no longer selling?

Offline Callie Del Noire

Re: government shut down
« Reply #501 on: October 18, 2013, 02:31:55 PM »
This entire episode with the government shut down and the debt ceiling brought to mind Greece defaulting on their debt. That put the EU into a tail spin a few months back. If a relatively small country like Greece can do such damage when they default, imagine what would happen if the US defaults. I'm not saying that the US is going to default but the debt ceiling does limit how much bonds and such the government can produce. What would happen if those T-bills are no longer selling?

Aren't you following the Tea Party? It's all the president's in the case of all failures and their (the Tea Party) success in the case of anything good coming out of it.

Offline Kythia

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Re: government shut down
« Reply #502 on: October 18, 2013, 02:51:42 PM »
The debt ceiling actually goes back to 1917.  Democrat president - Woodrow Wilson.  Not that the Democrats of that day are necessarily comparable to those of today

Offline Cyrano Johnson

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Re: government shut down
« Reply #503 on: October 18, 2013, 02:55:19 PM »
I didn't realize it went back that far. Probably because raising the debt ceiling has never (almost never) been used for political Calvinball in quite this way before. But I was forgetting that the shutdown crisis of the mid-Nineties, during Newt Gingrich's tenure in the House, was also a debt ceiling battle.

Offline Oniya

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Re: government shut down
« Reply #504 on: October 18, 2013, 03:16:34 PM »
I didn't realize it went back that far. Probably because raising the debt ceiling has never (almost never) been used for political Calvinball in quite this way before. But I was forgetting that the shutdown crisis of the mid-Nineties, during Newt Gingrich's tenure in the House, was also a debt ceiling battle.

Yeah, raising the debt ceiling has been a formality until the modern age.

Offline Laughing Hyena

Re: government shut down
« Reply #505 on: October 20, 2013, 04:48:50 AM »
This is probably going to happen again come January and then again and again until Obama is out of office. After hearing about a potential backdoor impeachment strategy, basically this is essentially the Tea Party making it as hard as possible for the president to run the country. To a point where almost nothing can be done by him. So this is their potential strategy. I take it with a bit of salt but I wouldn't be surprised if it was in fact true. I dunno what can possibly be done to ensure a second shutdown doesn't occur in January.

Offline Vekseid

Re: government shut down
« Reply #506 on: October 20, 2013, 08:45:24 AM »
This is probably going to happen again come January and then again and again until Obama is out of office. After hearing about a potential backdoor impeachment strategy, basically this is essentially the Tea Party making it as hard as possible for the president to run the country. To a point where almost nothing can be done by him. So this is their potential strategy. I take it with a bit of salt but I wouldn't be surprised if it was in fact true. I dunno what can possibly be done to ensure a second shutdown doesn't occur in January.

Republicans don't want to do this too close to an election. Voter memories are short, not ephemeral.

Offline LunarSage

Re: government shut down
« Reply #507 on: October 20, 2013, 08:53:39 AM »
What astounds me are the number of people on Facebook who are lauding the Tea Party Republicans as "heroes who stood up for freedom" in the case of the shutdown.  Wtf?

Offline Oniya

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Re: government shut down
« Reply #508 on: October 20, 2013, 08:55:13 AM »
What astounds me are the number of people on Facebook who are lauding the Tea Party Republicans as "heroes who stood up for freedom" in the case of the shutdown.  Wtf?

The empty barrel makes the loudest noise. 

Offline Laughing Hyena

Re: government shut down
« Reply #509 on: October 20, 2013, 09:28:30 AM »
The empty barrel makes the loudest noise. 

What astounds me are the number of people on Facebook who are lauding the Tea Party Republicans as "heroes who stood up for freedom" in the case of the shutdown.  Wtf?

I had probably the same reaction when I read about Cruz being cheered for when he came back to Texas. I swear the more I look at this stuff the more I lose faith in the united states own intellect.

Offline ThePrince

Re: government shut down
« Reply #510 on: October 23, 2013, 08:27:19 AM »
We are not going to have this same crisis in February. The Treasury still has its ablitiy to use extrodanary meassures, once the debt limit is reached, so we wont have to worry about that till around November 2014.

The government could shut down again in January, but its very unlikely. The republicans lost a lot of political capital with this shut down, the republican majority in the house is broken and can not pass a bill. They know they will be blamed again and will suffer even worse loses.

Offline Valthazar

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Re: government shut down
« Reply #511 on: October 24, 2013, 01:08:54 AM »
What astounds me are the number of people on Facebook who are lauding the Tea Party Republicans as "heroes who stood up for freedom" in the case of the shutdown.  Wtf?

If you truly look at the Tea Party message at its core (beneath their obvious distortions, biases, and misinformation), many of their concerns are justified, and ones that I bet a lot of people here would agree with.  For example, more recently, there are many economically left-leaning people who have become vehemently anti-SOPA, anti-NSA, anti-drones, and concerned about the inflation that will result from the Treasury printing money.  Historically, even the moderate fiscal conservative platform wouldn't have been this passionate about individual privacy, but obviously, it is something that is very important to many of us today.

The Tea Party is ineffective in their delivery because they utilize negotiating tactics that are largely polarizing and antagonistic.  There is certainly grounds for legitimate criticism of certain clauses of ACA, but the proper course of action, in my opinion, would be to let it run its course for the next two years (since it is already law), and utilize any potential pitfalls that arise to make a legitimate platform in 2016.  As far as I'm concerned, this congressional fiasco has accomplished nothing other than making it impossible for any sort of legitimate conservative engagement in the midterm elections.
« Last Edit: October 24, 2013, 01:14:07 AM by ValthazarElite »

Offline Cyrano Johnson

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Re: government shut down
« Reply #512 on: October 24, 2013, 01:49:33 AM »
The Tea Party is ineffective in their delivery because they utilize negotiating tactics that are largely polarizing and antagonistic.

That and that they're really, really suspiciously opposed to any measure that would accrue benefit to anyone but their fraction-of-the-1% backers.

Offline LunarSage

Re: government shut down
« Reply #513 on: October 24, 2013, 02:48:54 AM »
That and that they're really, really suspiciously opposed to any measure that would accrue benefit to anyone but their fraction-of-the-1% backers.

In other words, "fuck the poor".

Offline dragonsen

Re: government shut down
« Reply #514 on: October 24, 2013, 11:48:46 AM »
In other words, "fuck the poor".

This has been the case for years. Look at all the tax breaks. A vast majority of them I can't even use because I don't make enough money.

Offline Oniya

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Re: government shut down
« Reply #515 on: October 24, 2013, 11:54:29 AM »
And for the 'support programs', you probably earn too much.

Offline Torch

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Re: government shut down
« Reply #516 on: October 24, 2013, 12:17:44 PM »
This has been the case for years. Look at all the tax breaks. A vast majority of them I can't even use because I don't make enough money.

Yes, but the logical rejoinder to that statement is if your personal income is below a certain amount, you shouldn't be paying any federal income tax at all.

The folks that are making enough to get tax breaks are paying federal income tax.

That's how it's supposed to work.

Offline Valthazar

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Re: government shut down
« Reply #517 on: October 24, 2013, 12:46:56 PM »
There is merit to both fiscally conservative and fiscally liberal economic policies, and there is relatively equal research to suggest that both schools of thought can create a strong middle class, and decrease poverty.  Everyone has their own opinion, and it is really difficult to say one perspective is entirely wrong, or that one is entirely right.

Fiscal conservatives seek to to maximize economic and job opportunities in the private sector, thus gradually weaning the need for government aid.  Its merits are mostly seen in the long-term - perhaps even only a generation later, because economic recovery takes time - going along with the "Invisible Hand" of the economy.  Some economists view this approach as being the most "fiscally sound" over the long-term, since very little liabilities/debt are taken on, and because of less artificial interventions into the economy, there is less risk and uncertainty for businesses during recessions, which tends to be positively correlated to hiring.   But obviously, because it relies on natural economic recovery without intervention, it often creates difficulties for the poor in the short-term (as well as businesses).  There really isn't any easy answers.

My purpose isn't to debate this here, but only that it isn't accurate to deem one approach as "pro-poor" and the other as "anti-poor."
« Last Edit: October 24, 2013, 12:53:29 PM by ValthazarElite »

Offline Callie Del Noire

Re: government shut down
« Reply #518 on: October 24, 2013, 01:06:00 PM »
There is merit to both fiscally conservative and fiscally liberal economic policies, and there is relatively equal research to suggest that both schools of thought can create a strong middle class, and decrease poverty.  Everyone has their own opinion, and it is really difficult to say one perspective is entirely wrong, or that one is entirely right.

Fiscal conservatives seek to to maximize economic and job opportunities in the private sector, thus gradually weaning the need for government aid.  Its merits are mostly seen in the long-term - perhaps even only a generation later, because economic recovery takes time - going along with the "Invisible Hand" of the economy.  Some economists view this approach as being the most "fiscally sound" over the long-term, since very little liabilities/debt are taken on, and because of less artificial interventions into the economy, there is less risk and uncertainty for businesses during recessions.   But obviously, because it relies on natural economic recovery without intervention, it often creates difficulties for the poor in the short-term (as well as businesses). 

My purpose isn't to debate this here, but only that it isn't accurate to deem one approach as "pro-poor" and the other as "anti-poor."

And that is why I think bipartisanship and compromise/cooperation are needed. The interests of the country aren't on one side of the tetter totter, but in a balance of a healthy interplay among our elected officials. Something that we haven't seen for 2 decades now. This acrimonious hatred of the other side has to stop. This whole incident this month as one side doing everything to poison the system if they dont' get their way. I'm still out my job, because the DoD is slow in advancing contracts till this BS is resolved. They are busy making sure that the next round of shutdown diplomacy in January won't leave vital programs and activities in the lurch (again). I MIGHT get a formal offer in December if I'm lucky.

To me, there is a need for balance and interplay. Today.. we see damn little of that balance and interplay that is vital for good governance. I imagine if I don't get the job offer by Christmas that I will most likely suffer the next round of shutdown fever in the New Year.

I don't think I've seen a more hostile congressional environment in my lifetime and would not be opposed to consider the argument that it's not been this hostile since before the civil war (Senator Brooks assaulting a peer in the Senate in the 1856 comes to mind as the only more extreme events compared to the ongoing hostility of the House/Senate today)

Offline Valthazar

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Re: government shut down
« Reply #519 on: October 24, 2013, 01:26:23 PM »
Sorry to hear about your job situation, Callie.  I think the implementation of ACA is introducing a lot of uncertainty into the economy, and the same applies to the voters - and unfortunately a lot of them are polarizing in their views.  A lot of people are getting notices that their private insurances are being dropped, and I think it is this segment of lower-middle class people that are really being hit hard by the healthcare issue.

The next 1-2 years will be a very complicated time for everyone - businesses, banks, insurance companies, and so on.  Everyone is trying to figure out how exactly ACA will affect them.

http://blogs.wsj.com/cfo/2013/10/15/health-law-stirs-lending-worries-for-small-business/?mod=wsj_cfohome_cforeport

I guess we'll see what happens.

Offline Callie Del Noire

Re: government shut down
« Reply #520 on: October 24, 2013, 01:45:05 PM »
Sorry to hear about your job situation, Callie.  I think the implementation of ACA is introducing a lot of uncertainty into the economy, and the same applies to the voters - and unfortunately a lot of them are polarizing in their views.  A lot of people are getting notices that their private insurances are being dropped, and I think it is this segment of lower-middle class people that are really being hit hard by the healthcare issue.

The next 1-2 years will be a very complicated time for everyone - businesses, banks, insurance companies, and so on.  Everyone is trying to figure out how exactly ACA will affect them.

http://blogs.wsj.com/cfo/2013/10/15/health-law-stirs-lending-worries-for-small-business/?mod=wsj_cfohome_cforeport

I guess we'll see what happens.


Agreed. I have to admit we've let the media become far more divisive than they used to be. The growth of 'Lies as News' has made it extremely hard to find anything on TV that is remotely 'fair' or 'balanced'. Add in things like the domination of key markets by certain groups an ongoing chronic lack of anti-corruption reforms in campaign law and the ability of special interests to manipulate policy entirely out of proportion with the scale of their populace.

We need massive and hard setting reforms in term limits, campaign spending and how special interests can interact with the development of policy. BOTH parties need to take a hard long look at how they let groups manipulate their platforms. Social media manipulation has made it massively easy for special interests to hijack movements. You only have to look at the corporate hijacking of the Tea Party movement and the mess that came out of the Occupy Movement. The first continues on..while the second was bickered over by the lack of a decisive moment of leadership.

Bluntly put..we need HUGE amounts of electoral reform on multiple levels from the local to national levels. Funding needs to have either accountability or be STRICTLY from citizens (AND accountability). I favor the later. We need to realize that rule by the majority of the majority is NOT the same as rule of the Majority. (and that is what caused this crisis this month..and will cause another in the new year..and possibly one JUST before the 2014 election cycle)

With a few notable exceptions I think it's clear the shutdown was engineered by UNELECTED party officals working thru the party elected. We've had our republic hijacked.. and not just the part that wears red ties. We need tor reclaim it.

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Re: government shut down
« Reply #521 on: October 25, 2013, 01:38:39 PM »
Harry Reid interview: There's a long, hard road ahead and we need to play more hardball against the republicans


    “If you give a bully a dollar today, they ask for a dollar and a half tomorrow,” he said in a radio interview with Nevada's KNPR. “It has taken a while for all my caucus to come to that understanding. And quite frankly, the president, wonderful man that he is, he doesn’t like confrontation and he likes to work things out with people."

"I was too lenient. Don’t blame it all on him,” Reid added.

He also ruled out the possibility that a budget conference committee convening next week will reach a "grand bargain" that would cut entitlements, raise taxes and reduce spending.  “We are not going to have a grand bargain in the near future,” he said.

Instead, he suggested negotiators should focus on a replacement for sequestration and forget “happy talk” about a grand bargain."


____________________


Evidently no major game changers can be expected in the course of next year. Nothing that would really take the discussion in Congress or its working methods in a really new direction. Very few people will have either the confidence or the will to take risks in that way until at least after the elections in a year from now. Perhaps not even until after Obama has left the White House.  :-(

« Last Edit: October 25, 2013, 01:42:59 PM by gaggedLouise »

Offline Valthazar

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Re: government shut down
« Reply #522 on: October 25, 2013, 08:48:34 PM »
I'm quite positive that the Democrats will win majorities in the House and Senate in the midterm elections in 2014, and I'm willing to bet that a Democrat will win the White House in 2016.  Personally, I think these outcomes will be detrimental for the United States from a long-term perspective, but because most voters are looking for short-term relief in this difficult economy, that's how I see things playing out.

I actually agree with some of the underlying philosophy that initially spurred the Tea Party formation, but obviously, it has turned into something totally different.  Even before the ACA was put into law, they decided to brand themselves as a socially conservative, religious movement, which really hurt their ability to "sell" their legitimate criticism of ACA - unlike President Obama, who was far more effective at pitching and marketing his legislation.

Offline Callie Del Noire

Re: government shut down
« Reply #523 on: October 27, 2013, 08:47:21 PM »
I'm quite positive that the Democrats will win majorities in the House and Senate in the midterm elections in 2014, and I'm willing to bet that a Democrat will win the White House in 2016.  Personally, I think these outcomes will be detrimental for the United States from a long-term perspective, but because most voters are looking for short-term relief in this difficult economy, that's how I see things playing out.

I actually agree with some of the underlying philosophy that initially spurred the Tea Party formation, but obviously, it has turned into something totally different.  Even before the ACA was put into law, they decided to brand themselves as a socially conservative, religious movement, which really hurt their ability to "sell" their legitimate criticism of ACA - unlike President Obama, who was far more effective at pitching and marketing his legislation.

I shall reserve that call for two reasons.

-One: We have yet to see the money the special interests backing the parties will throw this time. Too many corportate interests are at play this time around. THERE will be a LOT of mudslinging and that costs money.
-Two: I think we'll see the TRUE impact of the Gerrymandering in several states REALLY hit it's stride this cycle.

I think there will be a very big moderate and democratic turn out for an off year election.. BUT I think that it will be a close split either way.

Offline Valthazar

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Re: government shut down
« Reply #524 on: October 27, 2013, 11:23:02 PM »
Yeah, you make some good points, you're right about those two reasons.  It's kind of an unfortunate reality, I guess, that the results of elections are not really a true representation of how the majority necessarily feels.
« Last Edit: October 27, 2013, 11:34:42 PM by ValthazarElite »