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Author Topic: government shut down  (Read 13029 times)

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Offline gaggedLouise

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Re: government shut down
« Reply #50 on: October 01, 2013, 09:42:43 AM »
Not a huge NKOTB fan, but this song never seemed more timely. I bet many people can relate to the lyrics right now.


Offline meikle

Re: government shut down
« Reply #51 on: October 01, 2013, 09:44:53 AM »
So basically...

you get helped anyway if you need care. Only some people pay for it themselves or through insurance and others who refuse or can't get an insurance, don't pay anything?

This is only for emergency care.  If you go to the emergency room with an emergency, hospitals in the US can't refuse you.  It actually costs us a ton of money to do it this way, but we do it anyway because a significant portion of the American population really likes to hurt people through legislation and are morally opposed to helping strangers.

Another exciting example of this: The most effective way for the United States, financially, to deal with our homelessness problem is literally to just pay the rent for every homeless person until they are able to get themselves situated.  The amount of money we would ave by adding new, productive workers to the work force -- and by getting those people insured rather than relying on the The Emergency Room Is Free approach (which is incredibly expensive for the rest of us!) -- would outweigh the cost of putting everyone in a house.

But we won't, because in America we have internalized the idea that poor people and bad people are synonyms.

Offline Bloodied Porcelain

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Re: government shut down
« Reply #52 on: October 01, 2013, 09:47:52 AM »
So here's what I don't get.  Why haven't concessions been made?  I mean, employers not paying for birth control (or paying for a percentage of the cost of...blah blah blah) was the status quo ante bellum, right?  So no one will be losing anything, simply not gaining something.  And, you know, this seems pretty fucking important, surely.

I mean, sure, the Republicans position is clearly in the wrong.  And I get the whole "we don't negotiate with terrorists" aspect of it.  But if two sides can't come to an agreement than how can it be that only one of them is being stubborn? 

Some concessions have been offered. Multiple times. But they aren't the ones the Republicans want. The republicans want to postpone the ACA for a year, or to defund it all together. The Democrats are basically telling them that isn't going to happen. The reason the Republicans are the guilty party here is because they aren't willing to negotiate and refuse to accept that the ACA is a law now, and they can't bargain their way out of it just because they don't like it.

Offline Kythia

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Re: government shut down
« Reply #53 on: October 01, 2013, 09:56:14 AM »
Some concessions have been offered. Multiple times. But they aren't the ones the Republicans want.

See, that's my point.  The Republicans are refusing to take it off the table, the Democrats to put it on the table.  While I may have more sympathy for the democrats' position, that doesn't make it not stubborn.  Neither side is really covering themselves with glory here.

Offline Bloodied Porcelain

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Re: government shut down
« Reply #54 on: October 01, 2013, 09:59:38 AM »
See, that's my point.  The Republicans are refusing to take it off the table, the Democrats to put it on the table.  While I may have more sympathy for the democrats' position, that doesn't make it not stubborn.  Neither side is really covering themselves with glory here.

Agreed that neither side is 100% in the right, but I think the Democrats are going above and beyond what the Republicans are. At least their position actually stands for something... they are seeing to it the ACA, which will do worlds of good for those who need it, gets enacted regardless of the greed of others. The ACA is about so much more than just birth control, that's just the issue people have latched on to because it's a hot-button topic.

Offline MistermeTopic starter

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Re: government shut down
« Reply #55 on: October 01, 2013, 10:02:15 AM »
As a side note: my argument is not about the aca which is great and i know lots of people who need it. My argument is simply this (non-confrontational) the house and senate refuse to compromise on anything. Its not just one person involved. For me and my family its not about postponing the healthcare bill its about government closure. does our military get the shaft while congress still gets paid? is there really any good that comes out of all this? how bad will our children get shafted from all this?

Offline Kythia

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Re: government shut down
« Reply #56 on: October 01, 2013, 10:02:49 AM »
Agreed that neither side is 100% in the right, but I think the Democrats are going above and beyond what the Republicans are. At least their position actually stands for something... they are seeing to it the ACA, which will do worlds of good for those who need it, gets enacted regardless of the greed of others. The ACA is about so much more than just birth control, that's just the issue people have latched on to because it's a hot-button topic.

But according to meikle's link, only 22% (or 29%) support ACA (Obamacare).  Less than those who oppose it for both names.  Elone's point notwithstanding, isn't the correct position for an elected representative to oppose?

Online Vekseid

Re: government shut down
« Reply #57 on: October 01, 2013, 10:06:42 AM »
I can sort of symphatize with that reasoning but isn't it part of the American 'spirit' to help out fellow countrymen in need?

I come from a family which has always been above average in income and when governments raise taxes for the higher incomes, I'm not complaining because I feel I can do with a little bit less and if that helps the people that need it, I'm fine with it.

Some people can work harder than others but they still deserve the same basic needs as everybody else and if they can't afford that, the people who can, should step in. In the form of a bill or law or extra taxes or something.

No, by that I mean - universal health care was originally rejected because ti would have to be given to black people, too. After the civil war propaganda regarding Africans changed from them being happy, productive and content with their slavery, to being lazy or dangerous.

Since Nixon's adoption of the Southern Strategy, the Republicans have taken up most racist code agendas, these include opposition to universal health care, clamping down on 'voter fraud', and so on.

Quote
I always thought that the Republican party was popular among lower incomes but hearing what you said Veks, I can hardly understand why.

The Republican party is popular among those making between 30k and 70k a year, roughly, and they start to dominate again over 150k a year. They basically put out a lot of fearmongering regarding the lowest classes (who are generally viewed as black though this is false) wanting to take the middle classes' stuff. Which is basically already occurring - if you make less than ~8k a year you can get something on the order of $40k worth of government bennies. But once you cross these magical numbers, you lose all of the benefits - you make $10k a year, you get nearly nothing. There is no incentive to actually genuinely support yourself once you hit rock bottom and get into Section 8.

Republicans have a hugely disproportionate amount of power because of this - between gerrymandering and general rural balance favoring them, they have a 5% 'cushion' in the House. Their voter disenfranchisement efforts are harder to quantify, but IIRC Nate Silver estimated a bit less than 2%.

They actually lost the popular vote for the House. They only won because Obama completely fucked things up and blew his political capital on the ACA rather than a proper (~$3 trillion) stimulus, and because the economy wasn't recovering it was easy for Republicans to get control of a lot of state legislatures in 2010 - allowing said gerrymandering.

I have no idea what the Republican party's plan is to survive post-2020, barring a colossal fuckup on the part of the Democrats (which is possible, but you can only be so stupid and still get into power). They are not America's future.

Thankfully.

That said, they still have another 8-9 years where they can continue to do an immense amount of damage.

So here's what I don't get.  Why haven't concessions been made?  I mean, employers not paying for birth control (or paying for a percentage of the cost of...blah blah blah) was the status quo ante bellum, right?  So no one will be losing anything, simply not gaining something.  And, you know, this seems pretty fucking important, surely.

I mean, sure, the Republicans position is clearly in the wrong.  And I get the whole "we don't negotiate with terrorists" aspect of it.  But if two sides can't come to an agreement than how can it be that only one of them is being stubborn? 

If you believe the Republicans are negotiating in good faith when offering to make a concession for 'only delaying the ACA for one year', I have some oceanfront property in Iowa to sell you.

The ACA is basically Obama's only positive legacy, at this point. It's a pathetic legacy, but it's something. They want Democrats to give up their only real success in the past decade - completely and utterly -

For the ability of the government to continue operating.

"Give me everything you've made in the past half-decade or I set fire to the house" is not an honest argument.

Offline Sex Bobomb

Re: government shut down
« Reply #58 on: October 01, 2013, 10:07:10 AM »
At the root of it, it's embarrassing as a citizen of this country. It's frustrating and disheartening to watch this happen year after year. I cannot blame one party or the other. I am sick of the he said/she said nonsense of the two party system. Enough is enough.

Offline gaggedLouise

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Re: government shut down
« Reply #59 on: October 01, 2013, 10:09:10 AM »
See, that's my point.  The Republicans are refusing to take it off the table, the Democrats to put it on the table.  While I may have more sympathy for the democrats' position, that doesn't make it not stubborn.  Neither side is really covering themselves with glory here.

There seems to be an element of "what goes around comes around" here. After the Democrats resoundingly won the House and nearly gained a majority in the Senate in 2006, they put the Bush administration through some serious defeats and refuses. There's bound to be some republicans who want to get back at them for this. Particularly because some of their voters think Obama almost personally created, or at least really exacerbated, the economic crisis.

This really is about a breakdown in trust and ability to broker solid deals together, both between the two major parties and between the Congress and the President
« Last Edit: October 01, 2013, 10:11:12 AM by gaggedLouise »

Offline Bloodied Porcelain

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Re: government shut down
« Reply #60 on: October 01, 2013, 10:09:52 AM »
"Give me everything you've made in the past half-decade or I set fire to the house" is not an honest argument.

This. Exactly this.

Offline Luna

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Re: government shut down
« Reply #61 on: October 01, 2013, 10:11:32 AM »
Misterme... you might be forgetting that the point of the continuing resolution was to fund government... NOT as a platform for the republicants to hold it hostage over some totally unrelated issue.

Offline Bloodied Porcelain

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Re: government shut down
« Reply #62 on: October 01, 2013, 10:11:43 AM »
But according to meikle's link, only 22% (or 29%) support ACA (Obamacare).  Less than those who oppose it for both names.  Elone's point notwithstanding, isn't the correct position for an elected representative to oppose?

You should go look up the number of people out there that actually know what the ACA does. Most people who oppose it don't have a single clue. Hell, half of them don't even know that its actual name is the Affordable Care Act, they call it Obamacare, and if you talk about the ACA as a separate thing from Obamacare, they're all for the ACA but not for Obamacare. Why? Because it has Obama's name on it.

Offline Dashenka

Re: government shut down
« Reply #63 on: October 01, 2013, 10:12:12 AM »
Something else that I found rather hilarious... or shocking... or both.


Some government services are shut down, meaning those people will not get paid. I read somewhere this is about 800.000 people. The same article stated that another 1 million people were asked to go to work without being paid. They're mad if they do.

But the real thing is.... isn't the Congress a government service? I bet they're still getting paid.

This is just politics over the backs of the people and one can only hope that come next elections, the people haven't forgotten about it or maybe sooner. Isn't it the government's lawful duty to serve the country in the US?



I have no idea what the Republican party's plan is to survive post-2020, barring a colossal fuckup on the part of the Democrats (which is possible, but you can only be so stupid and still get into power). They are not America's future.

Thankfully.


If all the future candidates are like Mitt Romney or that halfwitted woman who wanted to run, I think it's a good thing for the world.

Obama is popular around the world but it seems not too popular in the US. Which is quite the opposite of Putin I guess. Just a funny thing I noticed :)

Offline Kythia

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Re: government shut down
« Reply #64 on: October 01, 2013, 10:13:41 AM »
But again, I return to meikle's link showing that the majority of people who expressed an opinion opposed it.  Under either name. 

"Undo this unpopular piece of legislation, or at least make it a little more popular, or I burn the house down" is slightly more of an honest argument.

Meh, this might well be framing issue.

You should go look up the number of people out there that actually know what the ACA does. Most people who oppose it don't have a single clue. Hell, half of them don't even know that its actual name is the Affordable Care Act, they call it Obamacare, and if you talk about the ACA as a separate thing from Obamacare, they're all for the ACA but not for Obamacare. Why? Because it has Obama's name on it.

Not according to the link.  According to the link, it is opposed by the majority of people who know what it is under either name.

But yeah.  It seems like a framing issue.

Thanks for explaining everyone.

Offline Luna

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Re: government shut down
« Reply #65 on: October 01, 2013, 10:16:27 AM »
Aaand... if you break it down into its component parts and poll each one separately, many of the ideas are even more popular.

Offline Retribution

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Re: government shut down
« Reply #66 on: October 01, 2013, 10:17:07 AM »
Okay family members just got furlough notices so yeah this affects me. And am on an in between hunts break so let me try and explain ACA as I understand it since some of our out of country brethren here seem confused. Granted I do not necessarily get ACA because it is complicated and confusing and probably destined to bog down like most government programs. But the two sides are as follows:

ACA says that all US citizens must get insurance from someplace. It also says employers must provide insurance or be fined. The government will then set up clearing houses where insurance can be bought it will be funded with the above mentioned fines and some taxes on things such as medical equipment. Theoretically this will drive down the cost of said insurance and the consumer can shop around but they have to get insurance so medical bills get paid for all citizens.

The pro ACA people think this is good because it addresses the insurance issue and price of medical treatment. The con ACA hate it because they say the cost in taxes and to employers will be crippling to the economy. Then there is the not wanting to pay for birth control so on issues with it. ACA passed and is the law of the land. Conservative Republicans do not like it so they have done all they can to kill it, including in this case holding the government and the debt ceiling hostage.

Now for my POV, as I said earlier I think the Republican action is insane. It passed the courts upheld it, deal with it already you win some you lose some. Will ACA have some of the negative impacts predicted? Probably just not as dire as predicted, will it cost? Yup, it sure will doing nothing costs also. I would like to see say remove sending Pakistan billions a year because they have a nuke and then letting them hide Bin Laden in their backyard as possible sources of funding for anything. But that is another ball of wax.

Where I am right now is ACA is the law so deal with it and move on already. I am not sure ACA will fix anything but hell we are about to see if it does, but this obsession over repealing it is just plain crazy.

Offline Luna

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Re: government shut down
« Reply #67 on: October 01, 2013, 10:19:21 AM »
Oooh... and for ppl who are confused as to why some of the republicans are even doing this? Its because their districts have been gerrymandered to the point where the majority of voters in them are crazy and actually go to townhall meetings demanding this stuff.

Online Vekseid

Re: government shut down
« Reply #68 on: October 01, 2013, 10:20:23 AM »
But according to meikle's link, only 22% (or 29%) support ACA (Obamacare).  Less than those who oppose it for both names.  Elone's point notwithstanding, isn't the correct position for an elected representative to oppose?

Break it into its individual components and then what do the polls say?

At the root of it, it's embarrassing as a citizen of this country. It's frustrating and disheartening to watch this happen year after year. I cannot blame one party or the other. I am sick of the he said/she said nonsense of the two party system. Enough is enough.

This means you are solidly backing the Republicans.

The Republican political strategy is seriously to make the government disfunctional when they are not the party in power, and then portray themselves as the anti-government party.

People like yourself are why it works.

Something else that I found rather hilarious... or shocking... or both.


Some government services are shut down, meaning those people will not get paid. I read somewhere this is about 800.000 people. The same article stated that another 1 million people were asked to go to work without being paid. They're mad if they do.

But the real thing is.... isn't the Congress a government service? I bet they're still getting paid.

This is just politics over the backs of the people and one can only hope that come next elections, the people haven't forgotten about it or maybe sooner. Isn't it the government's lawful duty to serve the country in the US?

The suggestion from other countries is apparently that this situation should require an immediate termination of all federal public servant's services, and call for a national reelection of all public offices.

This won't happen until there is enough public support for serious constitutional reform, unfortunately.


Offline gaggedLouise

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Re: government shut down
« Reply #69 on: October 01, 2013, 10:23:05 AM »

If all the future candidates are like Mitt Romney or that halfwitted woman who wanted to run, I think it's a good thing for the world.

It would have been a cheaper solution, budget-wise, if they'd followed Rick Perry, who wanted to shut down three large government departments but could not recall which was the third one.  ;)

Quote
Obama is popular around the world but it seems not too popular in the US. Which is quite the opposite of Putin I guess. Just a funny thing I noticed :)

Much like Gorbachev, who was widely appreciated and trusted as an honest statesman around the world but much less so at home, as the Soviet Union drifted towards dissolution.

I'm not saying Obama has had near the kind of profoundly changing effect Gorby had, but the difference betwen "home view" and "foreign view" is really similar for both men I think.
« Last Edit: October 01, 2013, 10:35:13 AM by gaggedLouise »

Offline Kythia

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Re: government shut down
« Reply #70 on: October 01, 2013, 10:23:58 AM »
Break it into its individual components and then what do the polls say?

I have literally no idea.  All I've seen of it is the link meikle posted earlier.

Quote
The suggestion from other countries is apparently that this situation should require an immediate termination of all federal public servant's services, and call for a national reelection of all public offices.

This won't happen until there is enough public support for serious constitutional reform, unfortunately.

Yeah, that's kinda what I'd go for.  It's like, you've created a situation in which two groups which, by definition don't agree can shut the country down if they don't agree.  Surely that was a mistake?

Offline Dashenka

Re: government shut down
« Reply #71 on: October 01, 2013, 10:26:11 AM »
America should adopt a song by Cherry Ghost.

People help the people.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XYGOLzMgI88



Much like Gorbachev, who was widely appreciated and trusted as a honest statesman around the world but much less so at home, as the Soviet Union drifted towards dissolution.

I didn't think of that but yes... much like that :)

Offline Callie Del Noire

Re: government shut down
« Reply #72 on: October 01, 2013, 10:31:54 AM »
i can understand all of the opinions expressed on here and none are wrong. The house has tried to compromised several times but the senate would not budge. My question is why? did they solely want nothing but all of obamacare  to to take affect today? did they want the house to crumble? do they even care about the people? so many questions and very few answers.

No. The house has steadfastly gone 'we want this to happen. ACA has to go, we don't care that it is law, that the Supreme Court has backed it! that we promised to stop these games or that a majority of our constituents want/need affordable Heath care.'  They have steadfastly refused to negotiate or compromise on a lot of things. This is the laziest House session in decades. Look at the number of laws proposed. Look at how many the GOP has killed in committee. Pay attention to the fact that few if any democrat or bipartisan bills have gone ANYWHERE this session.

They don't care about us. They want to do the same thing for the last six years. Refuse to be LEADERS and hold out a hand to the opposition and work together.  It has been the course of action for the last two decades by theG op in the house that anyone NOT in the GOP is your enemy, not a peer.

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Re: government shut down
« Reply #73 on: October 01, 2013, 10:39:12 AM »
No. The house has steadfastly gone 'we want this to happen. ACA has to go, we don't care that it is law, that the Supreme Court has backed it! that we promised to stop these games or that a majority of our constituents want/need affordable Heath care.'  They have steadfastly refused to negotiate or compromise on a lot of things. This is the laziest House session in decades. Look at the number of laws proposed. Look at how many the GOP has killed in committee. Pay attention to the fact that few if any democrat or bipartisan bills have gone ANYWHERE this session.

They don't care about us. They want to do the same thing for the last six years. Refuse to be LEADERS and hold out a hand to the opposition and work together.  It has been the course of action for the last two decades by theG op in the house that anyone NOT in the GOP is your enemy, not a peer.

I think the quote was something like "our goal for the next four years should be to deny President Obama a second term."

There have even been GOP incumbants who were ousted during voting because they sponsored bi-partisan bills for things like veterains benefits. If it has anything at all Democrat related to it, the GOP wants nothing to do with it. They don't care what it is or how good it would be for the American people, the troops, the economy, etc. For all their screaming and jumping up and down regarding the economy being their focus, it's really not. This shut down is a clear sign of that.

Offline Dashenka

Re: government shut down
« Reply #74 on: October 01, 2013, 10:42:25 AM »
Ignorant question... What's GOP?