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Author Topic: government shut down  (Read 13052 times)

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Offline Dhi

Re: government shut down
« Reply #450 on: October 17, 2013, 12:42:48 AM »
Just wanted to stop by and say I am affected by this, and not insignificantly.

A glimpse of the shutdown list posted earlier (very interesting) shows that an estimated 81% of the jobs in my work have been furloughed. Not surprisingly, I'm one of them. This comes at a time when medical expenses have hit myself and my partner harder than we can actually afford, a time when we will soon have to move, and a time when my partner's salary has gone from being frozen for half a decade- at the bottom of teacher salaries by state- to actually being reduced.

It may seem cheesy that companies are chipping in to offer small relief to furloughed workers, but it's helped us both financially and emotionally. Previously my only interaction with public opinion was reading venomous comments and conspiracy theories left about my department's work on news sites. I felt hated. Receiving this kind of support has been really deeply touching.

Especially this one.

Offline kylie

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Re: government shut down
« Reply #451 on: October 17, 2013, 12:48:22 AM »
The guy in my profile picture is Frank Sinatra...
     I think now it's probably the "elite" plus suit that kinda does it for me...  But then I am clueless about Sinatra, beyond having heard the name.

Quote
If you read my other posts, you'll see that I actually support tax increases on multinational corporations, and tax reductions on small businesses.  I posted earlier about how the majority of American workers are actually employed by small businesses, and many small business owners are feeling the same economic crunch we are all feeling.  Think about how defensive the middle class would feel if there was a tax increase on them, because that's exactly how most small business owners feel today.  It's a struggle to just balance the checkbook each month.
          In some cases, I suppose the comparison works but...  It seems to me that if you have enough credit or assets to start a business, you're ahead of a sizeable fraction of the population and if you're moderately fortunate or good at management and guessing the market (so some of them anyway), then you have a better cushion in case of business surprises or personal difficulties.  Whereas many of the working class -- particularly increasingly urban to cheap suburban, lower working class -- have to rely on their immediate community, pawning a few remaining solid objects of value, or monthly (and sometimes delayed) government payments that are rather hard to live on (last I heard a food stamp budget was not that large when you look at nutritional needs and the costs in the supermarket -- then there are regulations about how and where you must live for Section 8, if landlords even accept it on and on...).  You can make that comparison if you want, but I'm skeptical that it's really all that comparable.  And that's a lot of people.

         In the bigger picture though, if you say that smaller businesses are employing so many people...  What does that really change for incomes and benefits, versus cost of living?  I am still left wondering why so many of the recent jobs generally are low-paying, often part-time / short-term contract / temporary / private contractor (not technically employed by businesses for tax purposes at all).  It isn't completely clear to me that tax breaks for those businesses must translate into security, wages or benefits for all those employees.  Maybe that case could be made, but I'm having a hard time imagining it just now.  Of course, that is also not necessarily saying that small business owners are just being mean and purposefully setting their own standards for profit "too" high (I don't know that either off the bat).  But there's no hard and fast rule I know of where making the system easier for them, must "trickle down" to their workers.  The whole trickle down thing hasn't seemed to work all that well so far...

Quote
The free-market is the foundational basis for America's economy, and insinuates nothing else.  If you talk to any economist - regardless of political affiliation - they will tell you without hesitation that the secret to America's prominence has been its commitment to free-market capitalism.  The primary reason it has received such heat as of late, is because of a tax code that is not taxing multinational corporations enough, taxing small business too much, and offers far too much deregulation of certain industries.  In addition, there is far too much lobbying and corporate collusion between multinational business giants and Congress.  These are the true evils, and we should attribute blame to those factors, and not on the financial system that has made the United States the world's most powerful nation.
          I would probably buy most of that -- assuming real estate and significant chunks of the financial sector were included in "certain industries."  I think that's a lot of what people mean when they say the financial "system" is broken? 

         And as for powerful, I wonder --- there's a lag between economic means and power.  Some of the Tea Party knew this, and they were just willing to bet that the US could do 'enough' basic things, quite regardless of its credit rating...  At least, it could continue long enough for them to scream, "Look, that Obama is actually still running the government without our authorization -- he's choosing which of the bills we already incurred to actually pay!  So that proves it.  He's a dictator, we've been telling you all along!"  Why, I imagine a few are very upset they haven't had a chance to see how that would play with those parts of the public whose news interest stops more at the ocean's shores. 

Arguably in the 1960's, America could still drive its military almost anywhere in East Asia (except perhaps mainland China) without serious consequences, through a whole network of occupied/ indebted states or places that wouldn't resist a conventional invasion very long...  But if I recall correctly, the US economy was already starting to show signs of growing slower and shedding certain leading technologies (computer chips!) to competitors in East and Southeast Asia..  Super status and military or even diplomatic power, but not quite the same untouchable level of economic power -- not even up to the level that most (again led by US hype and "development models" of the day) spoke as if there was. 

More generally, and speaking to the present:  In a world of credit and intangible status and fear of change, one can be powerful for some time without being solvent or even especially productive.  The question is how long and what kind of power,  precisely that is, and when will the world bother to change.
« Last Edit: October 17, 2013, 12:54:46 AM by kylie »

Online Callie Del Noire

Re: government shut down
« Reply #452 on: October 17, 2013, 12:49:00 AM »
Just wanted to stop by and say I am affected by this, and not insignificantly.

A glimpse of the shutdown list posted earlier (very interesting) shows that an estimated 81% of the jobs in my work have been furloughed. Not surprisingly, I'm one of them. This comes at a time when medical expenses have hit myself and my partner harder than we can actually afford, a time when we will soon have to move, and a time when my partner's salary has gone from being frozen for half a decade- at the bottom of teacher salaries by state- to actually being reduced.

It may seem cheesy that companies are chipping in to offer small relief to furloughed workers, but it's helped us both financially and emotionally. Previously my only interaction with public opinion was reading venomous comments and conspiracy theories left about my department's work on news sites. I felt hated. Receiving this kind of support has been really deeply touching.

Especially this one.

I sympathize for you Dhi.. I do. I know almost a dozen former shipmates and about half a dozen friends since my retirement that have been furloughed or 'non-payed' work status. One of the perks of being retired military near a base is keeping in touch with a LOT of folks in the community. It sucks, and I'm sorry.  I have to wait till the contracts start flowing again to get a job..

Offline Valthazar

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Re: government shut down
« Reply #453 on: October 17, 2013, 02:02:02 AM »
          In some cases, I suppose the comparison works but...  It seems to me that if you have enough credit or assets to start a business, you're ahead of a sizeable fraction of the population and if you're moderately fortunate or good at management and guessing the market (so some of them anyway), then you have a better cushion in case of business surprises or personal difficulties.

What statistics are you using to reach this conclusion?  Most American small business owners are just like you and me - someone with an idea, that came to fruition.  They are average people selling cupcakes, office supplies, musical instruments, you name it.  They took out business loans, and now have to struggle to pay those loans back, or else they file bankruptcy.

I urge you to research bankruptcy rates for small businesses.  Many Americans start businesses because they have trouble finding employment, so they decide to open a start-up.  If you don't believe me, try to find someone here on E who is from a non-urban area.  Most businesses in their areas will be family run - like diners, eateries, trucking companies, plumbing companies, etc.

       
In the bigger picture though, if you say that smaller businesses are employing so many people...  What does that really change for incomes and benefits, versus cost of living?  I am still left wondering why so many of the recent jobs generally are low-paying, often part-time / short-term contract / temporary / private contractor (not technically employed by businesses for tax purposes at all).  It isn't completely clear to me that tax breaks for those businesses must translate into security, wages or benefits for all those employees.  Maybe that case could be made, but I'm having a hard time imagining it just now.  Of course, that is also not necessarily saying that small business owners are just being mean and purposefully setting their own standards for profit "too" high (I don't know that either off the bat).  But there's no hard and fast rule I know of where making the system easier for them, must "trickle down" to their workers.  The whole trickle down thing hasn't seemed to work all that well so far...

I had described this in an earlier post, so I will link you here. 

http://elliquiy.com/forums/index.php?topic=186414.msg9057375#msg9057375

At the end of that post, I discuss some of my perspectives on optimal fiscal policy that is neither represented in the Democratic nor Republican platforms.  I do not believe 'trickle-down economics' works on a corporate level, however, I do believe it works on a small business level.  As a result, I think a tax hike on multinational corporations is absolutely essential, returning to 1960 corporate tax rates.  In tandem, I believe that economic policies geared towards the objective of creating incentive for small businesses to boost full-time employment is the secret towards economic recovery.  Because small businesses represent the largest group of employers in the United States, I feel that providing graded small business tax reductions for expanding their full-time positions will not only spur business development, but return financial independence to millions of Americans.  In other words, by setting that tax reduction at an optimal level, it is more cost efficient for the small business owner to expand his full-time positions, than paying a higher penalty in taxes.  If you read earlier in this thread, I have cited the data on corporate vs. small business employment, which should be in the post below:

http://elliquiy.com/forums/index.php?topic=186414.msg9045383#msg9045383

Imagine a society where instead of giving 2.0 GPA high school graduate a guaranteed federal grant/loan to go to a college that they will most likely dropout from, they are given a corresponding federal grant/loan to start a business endeavor?  The blunt reality in this economy is that a loan used to open a coffee shop is more economically beneficial for society, than the same individual using a loan to take 30 credits at a college, and then dropout.

Americans historically have been, and still are, generally good, industrious people.  Most people like to support their local economy, and most local businesses are run by decent people, looking to provide quality products, and honest service.  I can't say the same for multinational corporations, but suggesting that most small business owners are rolling in dough in this economy, is an extremely inaccurate assessment.

However, I also realize that these economic policies will never come to fruition.  Both political parties have unfortunately bought into lobbyism.  The ACA, while certainly bringing many positives, brings along many negatives as well in relation to small business full-time employment.
« Last Edit: October 17, 2013, 02:45:38 AM by ValthazarElite »

Offline Cyrano Johnson

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Re: government shut down
« Reply #454 on: October 17, 2013, 03:03:13 AM »
I don't think the people in the Tea Party are necessarily bad people - perhaps the better word is, misled, and misinformed. . . Many Tea Party members still think global warming is a hoax, even though it is accepted in the scientific community.

The Tea Party is really the apotheosis of a nearly half-century-old Republican strategy that basically amounts to White (preferably Anglo-Saxon Protestant) tribal politics.

It's the apparently nonsensical nature of many of their views, and their whole posture as "grassroots" corporate-funded "movements," that's the tip-off to this. Tea Party supporters may or may not be really deluded enough to think "global warming" is a conspiracy that has somehow doctored up evidence of the polar ice caps melting before our eyes and heavy weather patterns manifesting around the globe. What is certain is that the wealthy members of their ethnic group benefit from a fantasy version of events and reality, and the Republican Party has long been selling them this fantasy in exchange for votes: the belief that rich white men will, as fellow-members of the tribe, shelter them from the evils of the world.

It's not a question of their being "good" or "bad" people so much as a question of frame of reference. The FreedomWatch dude -- Larry Klayman(?) -- sounds superficially very stupid when he claims (as he has done) that really he's not racist, he just wants a White Republican president. He doesn't see the contradiction in that, and it's not because he's by any means stupid. He's just adhering to an older frame of reference: the term "racist" didn't exist until the early twentieth century, before which politics based on "race" was just accepted fact. What he's declaring is that he rejects the frames of reference that categorize "racism" as something other than a universally-accepted fact: after all, as far as he's concerned, those subsequent frames of reference hold nothing for him, and in fact rob him of what the prior frame of reference assured him was the rightful place of his people and his tribe at the pinnacle of things. Ergo, they must be wrong or representative of a conspiracy to deprive him and his.

When tribal politics has been reified as the be-all and end-all goal of a political faction, even the most noxious nonsense becomes acceptable in defense of the tribe. This is nothing new. The GOP has been trading on this kind of sentiment since Goldwater, although the rest of America has been tactfully trying to pretend otherwise for decades. It's just much, much more prominent now than it's been since Segregation.
« Last Edit: October 17, 2013, 03:05:10 AM by Cyrano Johnson »

Offline Dashenka

Re: government shut down
« Reply #455 on: October 17, 2013, 03:39:19 AM »
D'you know... all this incompetence from the American government almost makes me proud to be Russian again. At least Russia's fighting poverty rather than creating it.  ::) America got demoted to third world nation when it comes to politics over the last 2 weeks.

So congratulations, you are now eligible for Third World aid and support by the rich countries.

Offline kylie

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Re: government shut down
« Reply #456 on: October 17, 2013, 05:58:52 AM »
Quote from: Val
Most American small business owners are just like you and me - someone with an idea, that came to fruition.  They are average people selling cupcakes, office supplies, musical instruments, you name it.  They took out business loans, and now have to struggle to pay those loans back, or else they file bankruptcy.
          I don't really know a lot about you, so if you'll spare me the "you and me" for the moment, I'll try not to make too many blatantly clueless assumptions -- although it totally sounds like you're inviting me to in a chummy sort of way.  If you want me to understand what you actually mean by that, you could be more specific.  I could list many parts of my life that are not statistically average (some most people consider rather unfortunate, and some many consider somewhat privileged).  On the one hand you say small businesses do it because they're desperate people who 'had to do something,' on the other you say they're people with very practical and profitable ideas.  I'm not sure all of them can obviously be both quick and desperate, and saavy and well-planned for the long haul... 

Anyway the ideas that are important to me, don't easily make money these days.  I'm more of the belief that we value education not only to fill current slots in the market, but partly because we expect it to produce a few researchers and leaders who will actually encourage change of society and the market by inspiration (though quite a few get punished or attacked before anyone changes, MLK comes to mind)...  So I feel like you may be assuming a bit much.

         Granted, I was thinking of somewhat larger businesses with more paper-oriented offices (maybe you would call them medium, but I hear some of them shouting "small" so it's easy to be confused if in fact they even have different rules).  However, I think some of the point is still good:  Not everyone can take out a business loan, but some small (to medium, if you'll allow that in here) businesspeople can where many people of weaker backgrounds cannot.  No I don't have handy statistics on that, but I don't see how in a society where people are still pushed into living in specific (often weaker infrastructure and lower tax base) neighborhoods and denied some jobs based on race, the banks are going to give everyone equal access to capital.  Seems obviously illogical to suggest those things would go together to me.  And I do know there are a substantial number of people affected that way, usually in urban areas, by race -- and the urban fraction of the population has boomed over the last couple generations.
   
          I wasn't attempting to say that all small businesses have owners "rolling in the dough," as you rather touchily jumped to put it.  But I do believe that quite a few of them have better chances than your average lower income to poverty Joe etc. of having some resources of their own to fall back on say, if they have to have that one smalish operation or deal with one small unforeseen situation.  Of course, exactly how "small" or big depends more on just where on the totem pole they sit.

     

Offline LunarSage

Re: government shut down
« Reply #457 on: October 17, 2013, 06:29:38 AM »
I hate the Tea Party because their party line (and that of many extreme Republicans) has always seemed to be "screw the poor".  That and they want to be able to tell my daughter and everyone's daughters what they can and can't do with their own bodies. 

Was it a Tea Party Republican who coined the phrase "legitimate rape"?  Or said that "rape is one of God's miracles"?  I honestly don't recall.  I just know they were Republicans.

These are huge reasons why I vote Democrat.

Offline gaggedLouise

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Re: government shut down
« Reply #458 on: October 17, 2013, 06:44:35 AM »
I hate the Tea Party because their party line (and that of many extreme Republicans) has always seemed to be "screw the poor".  That and they want to be able to tell my daughter and everyone's daughters what they can and can't do with their own bodies. 

Was it a Tea Party Republican who coined the phrase "legitimate rape"?  Or said that "rape is one of God's miracles"?  I honestly don't recall.  I just know they were Republicans.

These are huge reasons why I vote Democrat.

I think it's Todd Akin's comments on rape and abortion during the 2012 campaign you're evoking - he said "the female body will shut down" and stop unwanted impregnation if the woman is raped, taken against her will. The implication being that if she does get preggers, well, she really wanted the fucking. That's scientifically proven, he added (which it isn't).

Offline Dashenka

Re: government shut down
« Reply #459 on: October 17, 2013, 06:46:37 AM »
Wonder what he'll say when it happens to his own daughter or granddaughter.

Offline Valthazar

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Re: government shut down
« Reply #460 on: October 17, 2013, 07:04:34 AM »
Anyway the ideas that are important to me, don't easily make money these days.  I'm more of the belief that we value education not only to fill current slots in the market, but partly because we expect it to produce a few researchers and leaders who will actually encourage change of society and the market by inspiration (though quite a few get punished or attacked before anyone changes, MLK comes to mind)...  So I feel like you may be assuming a bit much. 

By saying "you and me," I was suggesting that most small business owners start out, and often remain, middle-class Americans.  Most small businesses are based on entrepreneurship - the idea that one takes significant risks, because an idea or concept has the potential for profit - similar to way in which one's job income could essentially be considered profit.  I understand that you believe in concepts that are not based on money, but at the same time, it is important to balance the egalitarian perspective with financial realities  - or else, the policy will be unsustainable over the long-term.  For example, the reason a K-12 education is publicly available and required is because we have identified a certain degree of education for the citizen body that is both beneficial for the individual and society, as well as affordable monetarily.  Is it egalitarian to create a society where all Americans be actively encouraged to attend college?  Perhaps it would, and this seems to be the direction that society is heading in currently in the United States.  But at some point, unless it can empirically be shown that the societal outcomes of this exceed the monetary investment, it is irresponsible policy - no matter how desirable we consider it to be.

Not everyone can take out a business loan, but some small (to medium, if you'll allow that in here) businesspeople can where many people of weaker backgrounds cannot.  No I don't have handy statistics on that, but I don't see how in a society where people are still pushed into living in specific (often weaker infrastructure and lower tax base) neighborhoods and denied some jobs based on race, the banks are going to give everyone equal access to capital.  Seems obviously illogical to suggest those things would go together to me.  And I do know there are a substantial number of people affected that way, usually in urban areas, by race -- and the urban fraction of the population has boomed over the last couple generations.   

In my post, I actually offered a method of resolving this injustice that you mention.  Currently in the United States, the same student that you suggest is having difficulty obtaining business loans and finding jobs because of his/her race, are guaranteed federal loans and grants to attend colleges and universities.  Many of these students struggle academically, and college truly is not the right setting for them.  Many of these students end up dropping out of college, and anyone who utilized a merit-based approach in lending the loan, would have denied them immediately as being an at-risk student.  Instead, I suggested that rather than providing these students college loans (when their grades are significantly under-performing for college level work), a more beneficial system would be to guarantee federal business loans of corresponding value for all graduating students who are interested in starting small businesses.

Increasing and nurturing small business development in urban areas is an important aspect of improving the infrastructure, safety, and economic vitality of those areas.  The unfortunate reality is that students nowadays are not being taught the basics of business in high school, and the K-12 system is almost a feeder into college.  Providing high school electives on money management and entrepreneurship may provide far more satisfying career paths for a segment of students, and provide a far greater benefit for our society as a whole.
« Last Edit: October 17, 2013, 07:22:56 AM by ValthazarElite »

Offline dragonsen

Re: government shut down
« Reply #461 on: October 17, 2013, 10:47:07 AM »
More generally, and speaking to the present:  In a world of credit and intangible status and fear of change, one can be powerful for some time without being solvent or even especially productive.  The question is how long and what kind of power,  precisely that is, and when will the world bother to change.

Hello, Enron. :)

Anyway, as far as the small-business side goes, I'm self-employed. I'm also an accountant. All of my clients are small-business owners. They all do their best to make sure that their employees are considered independent contractors because it cuts out 23% of their payroll expenses that come from employer-paid taxes. Because of the convoluted mess that is our tax system, I don't get to take advantage of many of these tax breaks because I don't make enough. In fact, I'm still considered as being below the poverty level when it comes to income which is why I qualify for food stamps.

Also, due to ACA, many companies are changing their payroll structure, i.e. how many hours employees get, etc. Also, the ACA will offset many of the previously mentioned tax breaks using the penalties for not providing adequate and affordable health insurance. Since one of the thresholds is the number of full time employees you have, many small businesses are now reconsidering expansion or are reducing the number of hours for employees to get them below the 30-hour week threshold. Granted, the poll was from Gallup and it was in May 2013 so the quality of the numbers is in serious question. Honestly, I'm with Mark Twain on statistics. "There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics."

In a nutshell, small businesses are being asked to provide health care at costs that are disproportionate to their income levels. The ACA has now made it even more difficult for small businesses to grow past a certain point. Another issue is that the ACA doesn't address the cost of health care at all. It addresses the cost of health care insurance. Insurance rates are a lot like gas prices. They are quick to go up but it'll be a cold day in hell before they drop by any significant value.
« Last Edit: October 17, 2013, 10:52:33 AM by dragonsen »

Offline Vekseid

Re: government shut down
« Reply #462 on: October 17, 2013, 11:14:02 AM »
D'you know... all this incompetence from the American government almost makes me proud to be Russian again. At least Russia's fighting poverty rather than creating it.  ::) America got demoted to third world nation when it comes to politics over the last 2 weeks.

So congratulations, you are now eligible for Third World aid and support by the rich countries.

Don't worry, America will do the right thing eventually. After it's tried everything else.

Online Laughing Hyena

Re: government shut down
« Reply #463 on: October 17, 2013, 11:28:05 AM »
Don't worry, America will do the right thing eventually. After it's tried everything else.

*Starts weeping in the corner*

Offline Dashenka

Re: government shut down
« Reply #464 on: October 17, 2013, 11:38:58 AM »
Don't worry, America will do the right thing eventually. After it's tried everything else.

It's not America I'm worried about it's the American politicians.... :)

Offline Oniya

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Re: government shut down
« Reply #465 on: October 17, 2013, 11:42:15 AM »
Politicians, like diapers, need to be changed.  Often for the same reason.

(A bumper sticker that I identify with more and more these days.)

Offline Cyrano Johnson

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Re: government shut down
« Reply #466 on: October 17, 2013, 11:45:38 AM »
Is it egalitarian to create a society where all Americans be actively encouraged to attend college?  Perhaps it would, and this seems to be the direction that society is heading in currently in the United States.  But at some point, unless it can empirically be shown that the societal outcomes of this exceed the monetary investment, it is irresponsible policy - no matter how desirable we consider it to be.

Val, come on, man. Outside the niche of the apprenticed trades, the jobs by and large that are available to someone without a college degree mostly involve pumping gas, washing floors or asking if you want fries with that*. Can it really be that you do not know this? Do you really think that's a sector of the economy that you want the bulk of the American workforce inhabiting? Do you think that's the future of a modern economy? I'm genuinely curious, because what that's describing is basically a Third World economy.

And you know, this kind of shenanigans is what starts to piss people off about market rhetoric: somehow it always seems to boil down to the "common good" being sacrificed on the altar of a "fiscal responsibility" that isn't actually responsible, just designed as if by happenstance to safeguard the loot of the rich from the grubby hands of the poor and damn the macro-economic niceties. I know you're not identifying as a Republican, but this is exactly what similar Republican market rhetoric has for a long time been fundamentally designed to do (libertarian ideology being a key part of that equation)... and the reason why it's been so successful for them and so bad for America is that safeguarding the loot of the rich while screwing the general economy is the realistic outcome of this kind of rhetoric when put into practice. It always has been and was always going to be, and there's no hiding from that anymore. This isn't the Nineties.

(* I mean, you can argue that certain degrees are not worth what they once were. But that's not the same thing at all.)
« Last Edit: October 17, 2013, 11:47:58 AM by Cyrano Johnson »

Offline dragonsen

Re: government shut down
« Reply #467 on: October 17, 2013, 12:11:31 PM »
Val, come on, man. Outside the niche of the apprenticed trades, the jobs by and large that are available to someone without a college degree mostly involve pumping gas, washing floors or asking if you want fries with that*. Can it really be that you do not know this? Do you really think that's a sector of the economy that you want the bulk of the American workforce inhabiting? Do you think that's the future of a modern economy? I'm genuinely curious, because what that's describing is basically a Third World economy.

And you know, this kind of shenanigans is what starts to piss people off about market rhetoric: somehow it always seems to boil down to the "common good" being sacrificed on the altar of a "fiscal responsibility" that isn't actually responsible, just designed as if by happenstance to safeguard the loot of the rich from the grubby hands of the poor and damn the macro-economic niceties. I know you're not identifying as a Republican, but this is exactly what similar Republican market rhetoric has for a long time been fundamentally designed to do (libertarian ideology being a key part of that equation)... and the reason why it's been so successful for them and so bad for America is that safeguarding the loot of the rich while screwing the general economy is the realistic outcome of this kind of rhetoric when put into practice. It always has been and was always going to be, and there's no hiding from that anymore. This isn't the Nineties.

(* I mean, you can argue that certain degrees are not worth what they once were. But that's not the same thing at all.)

Honestly, I think it's about how those college degree holders value their own degree. My grandfather used to talk about his one semester at college. He is a farmer and came from a farming family. He had to work to pay for his time at college and was proud of it. Now that degrees are basically being handed out thanks to loans, with payments that can be deferred for years, the entire college experience has been lessened. There are jobs now that require a degree where in the past the applicants only needed a high school diploma. To me, that indicates that what children are being taught in K-12 is not as much as they were taught in earlier decades.

Offline Valthazar

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Re: government shut down
« Reply #468 on: October 17, 2013, 12:13:23 PM »
http://elliquiy.com/forums/index.php?topic=186613.msg9001192#msg9001192

Cyrano, I discussed my views on educational inflation below.

edit: (Sorry I meant above)


Offline Cyrano Johnson

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Re: government shut down
« Reply #469 on: October 17, 2013, 12:35:33 PM »
Yes, and you said this:

Quote from: ValthazarElite
My personal advice to high school students is to not bother with college unless you plan to pursue a graduate degree and/or a doctoral level education.  Many individuals are extremely skilled in a myriad of ways - though they may be weak academically.  Unless we break out of this myopic view that college is a necessity for everyone, we won't make much progress on this front.

Which views I'm aware of from other threads. Unfortunately, homilies about what higher education "should" be -- and how it's opening it up to poor people that's fouled everything up -- are aside from being highly questionable in themselves, worth exactly nothing to someone seeking an actual job in the real-life job market, in which like it or not most employers seek a degree. Whatever your opinions about the reasons for that, the facts are the facts... and unfortunately, everyone cannot go into HVAC or welding.

If you want to propose a top-to-bottom overhaul of the education system in order to make college acceptance based realistically on ability, rather than on level of wealth or poverty or "legacy" considerations or anything else, that would be one thing. But that you actually think the answer is just to tell people they shouldn't need college when they clearly do is a mind-boggling level of effrontery.

Offline Dashenka

Re: government shut down
« Reply #470 on: October 17, 2013, 01:05:33 PM »
Don't bother with college??

I'm not too familiar with the age at which you go to college but since the unemployment is at record highs all over the world what you are suggesting is don't go to college, stay at home, eat a burger and get fat. And if you have some spare time, join a gang or rob a bank. Whatever you do though do not get educated, it's pointless and overrated. This only goes if you want to be a politician in the American government.



Offline Oniya

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Re: government shut down
« Reply #471 on: October 17, 2013, 02:19:10 PM »
Actually, what Val is saying is 'If you aren't into studying, don't go to a four-year college.  Go to a trade school that better suits your interests and is geared towards getting you a decent job where knowing how to do Fourier transformations isn't going to make or break your chances.'

Offline Dashenka

Re: government shut down
« Reply #472 on: October 17, 2013, 02:23:17 PM »
Hmm alright. That makes some sense. Apologies, I didn't understand that at first.

Online Callie Del Noire

Re: government shut down
« Reply #473 on: October 17, 2013, 02:38:00 PM »
Don't bother with college??

I'm not too familiar with the age at which you go to college but since the unemployment is at record highs all over the world what you are suggesting is don't go to college, stay at home, eat a burger and get fat. And if you have some spare time, join a gang or rob a bank. Whatever you do though do not get educated, it's pointless and overrated. This only goes if you want to be a politician in the American government.

why go into college? Here is why. I've got 15 years experience as a field technician on aircraft, installing/modifying aircraft electronics/mounting hardware, working with electronic engineers and aerospace engineers on how to install, distribute in accordance with DoD/FAA requirements for safety and airworthiness. I am an experienced troubleshooter and field tech. I find, document and alter systems to work within the constraints of a tight environment. (the mind BOGGLES on the specialization of an airborne electronics system). I can do cable repair and splicing.

Why can't I get a job as a field engineer doing everything I just listed? It's not because of the experience. It's not because of lack of understanding of the paperwork. It's not because I don't understand the community or specific aircraft platform. It's because I don't have a four year degree. The company I applied to was willing to hire a KID out of college with ZERO work experience but a degree in Electrical engineering.

Offline Cyrano Johnson

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Re: government shut down
« Reply #474 on: October 17, 2013, 02:43:18 PM »
Actually, what Val is saying is 'If you aren't into studying, don't go to a four-year college.  Go to a trade school that better suits your interests and is geared towards getting you a decent job where knowing how to do Fourier transformations isn't going to make or break your chances.'

Given the context, I took Val to be saying that we don't need to worry about providing universal accessibility to college -- indeed that it's unproven as a social return on investment to do so -- not about personal preferences and aptitudes. "Go into a trade if you're not the studious type" would be completely unobjectionable, but I don't think that's the limit of what he's saying. If I'm misreading him then my apologies.