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Author Topic: government shut down  (Read 13037 times)

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Offline Oniya

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Re: government shut down
« Reply #350 on: October 15, 2013, 12:58:03 PM »
Most rational individuals anywhere on the political spectrum will agree that changes need to be made to the healthcare insurance system (except the Tea Party, I presume).  The question is, is the ACA the optimal means of achieving it?

Probably not, but sometimes, doing the wrong thing in a timely manner is better than waiting too long to do the perfect thing. 

Offline Pumpkin Seeds

Re: government shut down
« Reply #351 on: October 15, 2013, 02:21:28 PM »
The ACA is not perfect by any means nor is the ACA the best solution for this country, but that is the nature of a system built on compromise.  A law such as this would be tweaked, manipulated and maneuvered over time until the bill worked.  No bill this big can be optimal the first time out and so will require a lot of work.  Let us not forget though that what the United States had before the ACA didn't work either, but nobody was even attempting to fix that method of healthcare. 

Offline Valthazar

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Re: government shut down
« Reply #352 on: October 15, 2013, 03:13:12 PM »
I know, I'm not trying to debate the ACA.  The reality is that it is a law now.  I only brought it up to discuss some of the positive and negative consequences of the law, and some of the challenges we will face because of it.  One of the impacts will be a systematic, gradual increase in the number of people opting into healthcare through this program, as more businesses decide to reduce their full-time labor force in response to ACA.  I mentioned this, because there was a discussion earlier about the "economic health" of the US vs. the national debt.  Even though the government is in big trouble, the United States private economy is still performing reasonably well, with a large percentage of the global wealth.  The primary reason we are doing okay now is because of this general separation between the economy and government.

However, a variety of factors including the recession, cost of living, and economic burdens on small businesses, have created a situation where an increasing number of Americans are relying on government programs simply to make ends meet.  These programs are very much necessary for people to get back on their feet, but trying to convince ourselves that this is an ideal situation, or a direction that we want to proceed in, is undermining the fundamental strength of the United States - which is, the separation of economy and government.  But as far as I can see, neither the Democrats nor Republicans have a game plan in sight for accomplishing this - and actually improving the economic viability of finding full-time employment.  I would hope that the vast majority of Americans realize the many benefits that all of us, as average Americans, receive from a free-market economy.

Certainly, I realize there is a school of thought that there is nothing wrong with government providing services in a variety of sectors.  But due to the fact that the government is not at the whim of the same economic pressures faced by other business companies, it becomes difficult for people then to find other, competitively-priced alternatives, if they find themselves utilizing a government-subsidized program.  For example, there are growing third-party movements favoring tax deductions for companies willing to increase the number of full-time hires.  These are the types of pro-free-market initiatives that will actually stimulate our economy, but is represented in neither the Democratic, nor Republican positions.
« Last Edit: October 15, 2013, 03:22:40 PM by ValthazarElite »

Offline Oniya

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Re: government shut down
« Reply #353 on: October 15, 2013, 03:28:38 PM »
For example, there are growing third-party movements favoring tax deductions for companies willing to increase the number of full-time hires.  These are the types of pro-free-market initiatives that will actually stimulate our economy, but is represented in neither the Democratic, nor Republican positions.

Honestly, if I saw a candidate advocating this, and I could tolerate the rest of his or her stances on issues, I'd be getting the word out - no matter what party they belonged to.  There are too many 'incentives' for companies to make their new hires overseas, and we need some incentives on the domestic side of the balance.

Offline kylie

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Re: government shut down
« Reply #354 on: October 15, 2013, 04:34:43 PM »
... I implore many of you to understand the reasons many are concerned with the ACA law.  It is not that we don't share a common vision of seeing all Americans provided basic healthcare - but it is that some Americans see legitimate economic flaws in the way the law is written.  Most rational individuals anywhere on the political spectrum will agree that changes need to be made to the healthcare insurance system (except the Tea Party, I presume).  The question is, is the ACA the optimal means of achieving it?

     Hope this doesn't seem overly narrow...  But it's not really an option at hand.  The Republicans today are not doing that, they're attacking the thing in principle.  They're already been (historically in the process of the legislation being negotiated) attacking versions Romney basically proposed.  You say you liked Obama's original proposal, and we're miles away from it (at least in some considerable part) because many Repubs would not accept it as far as most imagined.  So if the thread is about the shutdown, then none of this says much.  If it's to turn into proposals for another health care bill and ignore the government the country happens to have actually proposing and voting on stuff at the moment, maybe that's different.
« Last Edit: October 15, 2013, 04:37:13 PM by kylie »

Offline gaggedLouise

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Re: government shut down
« Reply #355 on: October 15, 2013, 07:10:03 PM »
Does anyone know when, approximately, the deadline is for a vote in the House for a package to raise the debt ceiling? Obviously no one can know precisely when the treasury would hit the ceiling (sometimes on thursday being the advisory) but I understand if there hasn't been a raising of the ceiling at a set point before that, the treasury won't be able to borrow even on thursday morning EST, so a package would have to be passed tomorrow afternoon or evening at the latest. Is that where it's at?

Offline Chris Brady

Re: government shut down
« Reply #356 on: October 15, 2013, 07:13:55 PM »
I remember hearing/reading October 15 as an important date, but I'm not entirely sure what it pertained to.

Offline Callie Del Noire

Re: government shut down
« Reply #357 on: October 15, 2013, 07:22:58 PM »
My take: I agree with VE mostly. The initial proposal was a lot better starting point, because let's be honest. .the ACA is an evolving thing. It has to be and it will be.

My problem with this is this. Even if I totally hated the ACA I'd have to back the Democrats/Moderate Republicans in this. You do NOT hold the entire process hostage because a few years ago you didn't get your way. It sets a precedent, and one that once we get on that road it will never end. You don't don't pull down the entire house of cards because you and yours don't like something.

I can't even watch the news today, I was cussing at the TV within a minute and a half.

Offline gaggedLouise

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Re: government shut down
« Reply #358 on: October 15, 2013, 07:26:35 PM »
*looks at the calendar - it's October 16 around here already*
  ::)


October 17 is the date that's getting talked about all the time as the point when the ceiling will be hit - unless it's raised. No precise point at the clock for that day, though it would likely be early in the day since many of the creditors sitting on bonds are in Asia. But a move to raise the ceiling would have to happen a little before that, I reckon, to give the treasury time to borrow more under those new premises.

Anyway, if there isn't a deal passed by thursday afternoon far eastern time, which means something like 2 a.m EST on thursday morning, the stock exchanges in Asia, and then Europe after them, are going to be somewhat jumpy -  ;)

Offline gaggedLouise

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Re: government shut down
« Reply #359 on: October 15, 2013, 07:29:24 PM »
I can't even watch the news today, I was cussing at the TV within a minute and a half.


Hollywood invented the cliffhanger. If these guys can credibly make the votes in house and senate land five minutes before midnight* I'm sure they will.


* as a figure of speech.

Offline Callie Del Noire

Re: government shut down
« Reply #360 on: October 15, 2013, 07:40:22 PM »

Hollywood invented the cliffhanger. If these guys can credibly make the votes in house and senate land five minutes before midnight* I'm sure they will.


* as a figure of speech.

The Speaker of the House and House majority whip both called the bill they were working on DOA. Done. We're looking at a default. The way the Tea party wants it. They want this to be the President's fault, along with the Democrats and the Senate.

Offline Bloodied Porcelain

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Re: government shut down
« Reply #361 on: October 15, 2013, 07:40:42 PM »
It's the 17th. My birthday. Screw you, Congress.  >:(

Offline Valthazar

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Re: government shut down
« Reply #362 on: October 15, 2013, 07:42:09 PM »
The Tea Party has hijacked the Republican party, and it blows my mind that 38% of Americans want the debt ceiling to not be raised.  I think they don't understand that interest on our existing debt will require us to raise the debt limit, even if we develop a budget that is cost reductive.

Offline Kythia

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Re: government shut down
« Reply #363 on: October 15, 2013, 07:45:38 PM »
The Tea Party has hijacked the Republican party, and it blows my mind that 38% of Americans want the debt ceiling to not be raised.

Seriously?  What the hell are their reasons?  "We just think the government is paying too little interest.  We'd like it if more of our tax money went to that, rather than anything else."

Offline gaggedLouise

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Re: government shut down
« Reply #364 on: October 15, 2013, 07:48:07 PM »
Seriously?  What the hell are their reasons?  "We just think the government is paying too little interest.  We'd like it if more of our tax money went to that, rather than anything else."

It's like "I'll kill you if you don't come back" - to quote Motörhead.  :-)

Offline Valthazar

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Re: government shut down
« Reply #365 on: October 15, 2013, 07:48:35 PM »
Seriously?  What the hell are their reasons?  "We just think the government is paying too little interest.  We'd like it if more of our tax money went to that, rather than anything else."

"More than twice as many Americans believe lifting the limit means authorizing more borrowing "for future expenditures" than believe it means "paying off the debts [the federal government] has already accumulated"—62 percent to 28 percent, respectively."

http://www.nationaljournal.com/congressional-connection/coverage/poll-most-americans-don-t-understand-the-debt-ceiling-20131008

Offline Kythia

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Re: government shut down
« Reply #366 on: October 15, 2013, 07:53:55 PM »
"More than twice as many Americans believe lifting the limit means authorizing more borrowing "for future expenditures" than believe it means "paying off the debts [the federal government] has already accumulated"—62 percent to 28 percent, respectively."

http://www.nationaljournal.com/congressional-connection/coverage/poll-most-americans-don-t-understand-the-debt-ceiling-20131008

Wow.  I would dearly love to make some comment about dumb Americans here but I seriously doubt the UK would do much, if any, better.  People need basic economic and money management lessons at school.  How to balance a chequebook, what taxes are, how trade works, core concepts like that.  Compulsory basic financial education.

Offline Bloodied Porcelain

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Re: government shut down
« Reply #367 on: October 15, 2013, 08:00:24 PM »
My mother is one of the smartest people I know and even she is convinced that at least part of the debt ceiling negotiations is over future spending. -.- I've tried to explain to her that that's the budget, and the debt ceiling is just permission to borrow money to pay the bills we already have, but she won't listen to me. I've met maybe five people in person who understand what the debt ceiling really is.

Offline Pumpkin Seeds

Re: government shut down
« Reply #368 on: October 15, 2013, 08:00:52 PM »
The debt ceiling argument has been framed to make the government look like a college kid asking for more a higher credit limit on their credit card so they can buy a new stereo system for their roommate.

Offline kylie

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Re: government shut down
« Reply #369 on: October 16, 2013, 12:13:53 AM »
          I'm not completely clear on just how and when things really blow up if the debt ceiling isn't raised...  The quote below is from an  article by CNN that sort of helps with that, although I hope there are better ones out there somewhere with more discussion. 

          In other ramblings elsewhere I've passed online...  Some say the late or end of month bills are more technically important than the next few days, but then I think there is that confidence problem messing with things there too.  And others are still pushing for Obama to toss the problem over to the Supreme Court as a violation of constitutional guarantees of US payments -- even though the White House says they won't. 

Quote

If Congress fails to raise the borrowing cap, Treasury would likely run about a third short of the money it needs to pay everything between this coming Friday and November 15.

In total, that's more than $100 billion. And one of the biggest-ticket items is Social Security.

Nearly 58 million Americans receive Social Security. There are several big slugs of Social Security payments coming up -- including $12 billion on October 23 and $25 billion on November 1, according to an analysis by the Bipartisan Policy Center.

But making lifeline payments to seniors and the disabled is just one piece of the federal government's obligations.

On October 30, $2 billion in Medicaid payments are due to health care providers. The next day, Treasury has to pay out $6 billion in interest on the debt.

The government makes millions of payments a month.

The list goes on.

And in the worst-case scenario, the shortfall in cash could come hard and fast. That would happen if a Treasury bond auction -- held to issue enough debt to pay back the principal on outstanding debt that is maturing -- fails to attract enough buyers.

Then Treasury would be on the hook to pay off the bonds coming due, something Lew equated to having to pay off one's mortgage instead of just have to make a month's mortgage payment.

Offline Laughing Hyena

Re: government shut down
« Reply #370 on: October 16, 2013, 12:55:21 AM »
Not too sure how smart I am or how realistic this is...

But would it not be possible to get an emergency meeting up in the Senate to try and avoid the imminent default with or without certain parties, namely the ones whom are essentially doing this? The government can thus remain shut down but the biggest bombshell is essentially defused. And if people still try to hold onto that couldn't they be very well charged with treason for this kind of national endangerment?

Because as it stands at this point if nothing is done, everybody loses.

Offline gaggedLouise

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Re: government shut down
« Reply #371 on: October 16, 2013, 01:00:48 AM »
Not too sure how smart I am or how realistic this is...

But would it not be possible to get an emergency meeting up in the Senate to try and avoid the imminent default with or without certain parties, namely the ones whom are essentially doing this? The government can thus remain shut down but the biggest bombshell is essentially defused. And if people still try to hold onto that couldn't they be very well charged with treason for this kind of national endangerment?

Because as it stands at this point if nothing is done, everybody loses.


Just try excluding all the Tea Party people from handling this for rampant obstructionism...  :D They are the main offenders, but I'm afraid it'd be unconstitutional to throw them out of deliberations on these questions.

Offline Oniya

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Re: government shut down
« Reply #372 on: October 16, 2013, 01:04:04 AM »
I have to wonder if 'holding the government hostage' doesn't fall under the definition of treason somewhere...

Offline Laughing Hyena

Re: government shut down
« Reply #373 on: October 16, 2013, 01:05:14 AM »
I have to wonder if 'holding the government hostage' doesn't fall under the definition of treason somewhere...

By my count it does when the consequences are so damn high... or its some form of terrorism at the very least. And whats the US policy with terrorists again?
« Last Edit: October 16, 2013, 01:07:10 AM by Laughing Hyena »

Offline gaggedLouise

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Re: government shut down
« Reply #374 on: October 16, 2013, 01:06:28 AM »
Are you saying they should impeach Boehner and Cruz?  ;D