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Author Topic: Islam , A variety of discussions from a non extreme perspective.  (Read 35629 times)

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Offline FormlessTopic starter

Re: Islam , A variety of discussions from a non extreme perspective.
« Reply #275 on: February 25, 2015, 06:42:51 PM »
No to what? Regardless of political ambitions Saud dynasts may have had, what we are discussing is the Wahhabi movement, and their depredations on their neighbors are well attributed. When Abdullah ibn Saud was executed in Istanbul, it was not for any crime of treason but for violence against civilians. That two Wahhabi clerics were captured and sent with him is no coincidence of fate.

What the Saudi state was or may have been, or its exact relationship with the Wahhabi sect, bears no relevance to their views and, above all else, their actions.

Then I should apologize for leading on with this debate. Discussing movements wouldn't serve this thread any purpose.

It would be best if that debate is continued elsewhere.

Offline Skynet

Re: Islam , A variety of discussions from a non extreme perspective.
« Reply #276 on: March 11, 2015, 07:04:20 PM »
These next questions are specific towards Shi'ite Muslims.

So I was recently watching Crash Course, an interesting YouTube channel.  One of their more recent episodes covered the 1979 Iranian Revolution.  During a brief mention, they discussed Ayatollah Khomeini, and how he viewed the concept of a King or aristocracy as inherently un-Islamic.

I get the feeling that this viewpoint was doubtlessly used to attack the Shah's legitimacy at the time, but given the overall history of Shi'ite Muslims being treated as political dissidents in the Caliphate and Ottoman Empire, I believe that it runs deeper than this relatively recent period.  In that sense, I want to know more about this view and how popular it is among this sect.  The video also talked about how post-revolution Iran viewed an ideal society as one run and managed by Qu'ranic scholars, who were deemed the most knowledgeable about God's word.

How accurate would you say are the above views?

Amongst Shi'ite Muslims, both within Iran and without, how do their religious traditions view and handle the concept of proper governance?  How universal is anti-monarchism among Shi'ites?  Has there been evidence of royal families of the faith being accepted in their lands?

Here's the video in question:

« Last Edit: March 11, 2015, 07:09:56 PM by Skynet »

Offline FormlessTopic starter

Re: Islam , A variety of discussions from a non extreme perspective.
« Reply #277 on: March 11, 2015, 08:43:34 PM »
If I understood your questions correctly. ( And please let me know if I'm straying away. )

I'd say that Shi'ite as a religious sect , doesn't oppose monarchy or any form of royal rule as long as it serves the faith.

But its more political than that. And as I watched the video ( I am honestly not that well versed in Iranian history. ) , I picked up on the political agenda of the revolutions.

I think it would be easier to imagine if one who did not oppose the Shi-ite was holding the rule in Iran at the time of the revolution. Would it still happen?

Islam itself , which Shi'ite belongs to , doesn't oppose any form of rule , unless it defies the teaching of Islam itself. This is why there's Islamic countries that have a democratic rule , and others that follows a certain dynasty or  a royal lineage.

I want to be neutral , but if you look at the Shi'ite's history it is always filled with coups and revolutions. And a living example would be Iraq. Everyone wants to rule there , but you don't see anyone trying to extend a peaceful hand to another sect. Both sects in Iraq would be to blame , but there was hardly any instance in history where Shi'ites extended a peaceful hand instead of revolting against a current rule.

So , simply put. Its all political. Nothing in the faith is against Monarchy.

I hope this answer your question?
« Last Edit: March 11, 2015, 08:55:45 PM by Formless »

Offline Skynet

Re: Islam , A variety of discussions from a non extreme perspective.
« Reply #278 on: March 11, 2015, 10:35:22 PM »
Yes it does, thank you for your answer.

Quote
I think it would be easier to imagine if one who did not oppose the Shi-ite was holding the rule in Iran at the time of the revolution. Would it still happen?

I recently checked out the Shah's Wikipedia page, and among several listed reasons for his unpopularity, I get the feeling it still would have happened.

If what you meant was if the Ayatollah wasn't as critical of the Shah, maybe.

However, further discussion on this might be best via PM, and it's not a thing I'm in an expert in, for right now I'll ask another question.



Question:

This one's probably best suited to those who can read/speak Arabic.

A lot of Muslims seem to place great emphasis on learning Arabic to read the Qu'ran in its original text.  I understand the peculiar about discussing concepts which don't flow well to other languages, but what ideas or passages are at the most risk of being lost in translation?

Or if this helps better, which Qu'ranic verses do you see non-Arabic speakers having the most trouble understanding?  Like in the sense of "what does that even mean?"
« Last Edit: March 11, 2015, 11:06:28 PM by Skynet »

Offline Sabre

Re: Islam , A variety of discussions from a non extreme perspective.
« Reply #279 on: March 11, 2015, 11:33:11 PM »
Question:

This one's probably best suited to those who can read/speak Arabic.

A lot of Muslims seem to place great emphasis on learning Arabic to read the Qu'ran in its original text.  I understand the peculiar about discussing concepts which don't flow well to other languages, but what ideas or passages are at the most risk of being lost in translation?

Or if this helps better, which Qu'ranic verses do you see non-Arabic speakers having the most trouble understanding?  Like in the sense of "what does that even mean?"

In the 19th century a modern standard Arabic version of the Quran was developed, and like the King James Bible it's something of a definitive version for casual speakers today.

If you learn Arabic today, you will most likely be learning Modern Standard Arabic, a language formed in the late 19th century as part of a pan-Arab movement to create a universal Arabic language. Unfortunately this does not prepare one for reading pure Quranic Arabic for the same reason learning modern Greek does not readily prepare one for learning Biblical Koine Greek. There are, however, several Medieval books and dictionaries for Classical Arabic, which is an archaic form something like the English in the Canterbury Tales. This makes it easier, but one runs into another problem: Classical Arabic is itself another construct, formed in the 8th and 9th century in Iraq for a multicultural bureaucracy needing a standard language. It's similar to Quranic Arabic, but with one innovation: accent marks.

In Arabic there are many letters that have the same shape—what differentiates them as sounds is either the vowel that they carry, or the dots. But this was not the case in the seventh century when the Quran was first written. They had not yet invented vowels and dots. For example, the three consonants jim, ha’ and kha’ (and likewise other pairs or triplets) were written using the same letter. Similarly, you have several other letters that are not consonantly related at all—the ba’ would have a dot under; the ya’, two dots under; and the nun, one dot above—yet all have the same shape when you write them without dots, especially at the beginning and in the middle of a word. If you have a word of four letters, and each one can have two or three ways of reading it, then we have a problem. Sometimes the context tells you the meaning, which makes it easier to guess how to read un-dotted letters. But often it does not.

For example, a major difference between Sunnis and Shi‘is revolves around a vowel and a hook. In one verse of the Qur’an, a word can be read either as umma, ‘community’, or a’imma, ‘Imams’, to form ‘blessings on the umma’ for the Sunnis, or ‘blessings on the Imams’ for the Shi‘is—changing the whole dynamic of the chapter, which for Shi‘is validates the institution of the Imamate, whereas for Sunnis it authorizes the community to decide who rules it. So, traditionally, there arose seven or so official ways to read the Quran, each with different interpretations of words and phrases based on context within the book or without in the reader's own theological tradition as above between Sunni and Shi'a interpretation.

Of course today, you will likely find only one reading in schools and most mosques to make it easier for children and converts to learn the Quran. If one wished to properly study the book as a religious scholar, only then would you normally learn the other readings for the purpose of debate and exegesis. This is why even native Arabic speakers have trouble understanding the Quran in its pure form, and why most publications include reading guides and accents, or even commentary based on a certain school's ideals and traditions. The modern emphasis on the purity of Arabic and its importance as a holy script is usually the result of aforementioned pan-Arab and later pan-Islamist movements, but their generalizations come down from earlier traditions regarding Quran exegesis and linguistics that have been lost in translation, so to speak.

These nuanced discourses are something that can only be given justice in Arabic, but beyond that level I wouldn't say a modern standard Arabic version is that much different when it comes to distance from understanding nuance and levels of meaning as a translation into a different language altogether.
« Last Edit: March 11, 2015, 11:36:05 PM by Sabre »

Offline Oniya

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Re: Islam , A variety of discussions from a non extreme perspective.
« Reply #280 on: March 12, 2015, 12:15:16 AM »
I just want to say that - as a person who loves linguistics - that last post was absolutely fascinating. 

Offline Kythia

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Re: Islam , A variety of discussions from a non extreme perspective.
« Reply #281 on: March 12, 2015, 12:25:10 AM »
Seems very much like the Luke 23:43 mess.

Truly I say to you on this day, you shall be with me in paradise.

Truly I say to you, on this day you shall be with me in paradise.

One allows space for purgatory, one doesn't

Offline FormlessTopic starter

Re: Islam , A variety of discussions from a non extreme perspective.
« Reply #282 on: March 12, 2015, 07:08:38 AM »
Sabre provided a great explanation to how different the written Arabic was before and now.

However , fear of losing the meaning of verses when translated isn't fear per se , but just as mentioned in Sabre's post ... You'll need to fully grasp the essence of the language in order to debate the meanings of some verses.

But there is one thing that should be mentioned.

Take the first verse from the second Sudra in Qur'an. Its only letters. Its not a word in that verse , but random letters.

And here's the strange part , to this day no one even knows what they mean. And some other Auras contain these verses which always seems to be the first verse.

Some have speculations. But if I myself wouldn't be able to explain them to a non-arabic speaker.

Some say it is just to prove that Qur'an is and always will be Arabic ... But I wouldn't follow on that.

Take the 38 Sudra in Qur'an. The name of that Sudra is an initial. Just one letter. And it does not hold much meaning to be honest.

Some claim for it to have a hidden meaning , but was lost when the Caliphat ' Uthman ' ordered to gather the Qur'an into a written tome. Because until he ordered it , the Qur'an was simply memorized within the heart of those who followed Islam. So there was a great risk to losing Qur'an forever if many of these followers died due to battle or sickness.

So some says that these verses carried a meaning that was lost before that time. Or that these verses were incomplete. But there isn't a definitive answer.

There's also Verse 44 from Sudra 41 which reads [ And if We had made it a non-Arabic Qur'an, they would have said, "Why are its verses not explained in detail [in our language]? Is it a foreign [recitation] and an Arab [messenger]?" Say, "It is, for those who believe, a guidance and cure." And those who do not believe - in their ears is deafness, and it is upon them blindness. Those are being called from a distant place. ] source : http://quran.com/41/44

Some understood this verse that Qur'an is only fitting in an Arabic language. But Qur'an was recited in Arabic because the Prophet was Arabic. Just like the Bible was recited in Jesus' native tongue , the Torah with Moses' native tongue. If the Prophet , God's messenger , full understand what god is telling him , then he can deliver God's message to the rest of the people , hence why it is recited in each Prophet's language.

I hope this answers the question.

Offline Skynet

Re: Islam , A variety of discussions from a non extreme perspective.
« Reply #283 on: March 13, 2015, 06:42:25 PM »
It's a very informative answer.  Thank you again Formless.

Another Arab language question:

Earlier today I was browsing the /r/islam subreddit, and came upon this Hadith quote:

Quote
"Look at how Allah diverts the insults and curses of Quraish from me. They insult 'Mudhammam' and curse 'Mudhammam' -but I am Muhammad."

First question: What does Mudhammam mean?  I Google searched it, and found a rather unreliable Yahoo answer (which was downvoted an equal amount as upvotes) saying that it meant 'troublemaker' or 'rascal.'

Another place I found a Facebook post by a Muslim group saying that the term was a play upon Muhammad's name in an attempt to turn it into a similar sounding insult ("loathsome").

I'm certain it's insulting, but would like to know if it's actually a similar-sounding word to the name Muhammad in classical Arabic  or was more of a made-up word which happened to sound highly similar to an existing insult.


Second question: as of today, how many Hadiths have been discovered/are in circulation?
« Last Edit: March 13, 2015, 06:49:00 PM by Skynet »

Offline FormlessTopic starter

Re: Islam , A variety of discussions from a non extreme perspective.
« Reply #284 on: March 13, 2015, 06:58:14 PM »
Regarding the first question :

Another place I found a Facebook post by a Muslim group saying that the term was a play upon Muhammad's name in an attempt to turn it into a similar sounding insult ("loathsome").

This is actually a correct answer.

But to delve into detail. Its a word play derived from the word ' Thamimah. ' Which means means evil. ( The general meaning which applies to this situation. )

Now the opposite of Thamimah in Arabic is ' Hamidah ' Which means Virtue.

Now in Arabic there's instances where if you want to tie a name to a feat , you started it with ' mo '. Of course depending on both the name and the feat , the structure of the word differs.

So Thamimah , becomes Modhammam ( or Mothammam. ) And Hamidah becomes Mohammad.

Just a bit of word play. The actual meaning of that Hadith , or the moral from that Hadith is how a Muslim shouldn't pay attention to insults and shouldn't be swept with anger because of that.

As for the second question ... You'd find exaggerated numbers like 700,000.

But the strongest Hadiths , collected by ' Bukhari & Muslim ' is 5000.

So there isn't an exact definite number.

Hope this answers the questions. :-)

Offline Skynet

Re: Islam , A variety of discussions from a non extreme perspective.
« Reply #285 on: March 13, 2015, 07:55:30 PM »
On various news stations and discussions regarding Israel/Palestine and Islam, I frequently see the Al-Aqsa Mosque (Farthest Mosque) described as "the third holiest site in Islam," with the Masjid al-Haram (Sacred Mosque) and the Al-Masjid an-Nabawi (Mosque of the Prophet) being #1 and #2, respectively.

I found the term "third holiest" peculiar, and also the idea of holy sites ranked in such a way.  I'm sure there's similar rankings in other religions, although I don't hear it to the same extent.

So, what makes the Prophet's Mosque holier than Al-Aqsa, but less holy than the Sacred Mosque?  And what makes the Sacred Mosque the greatest of them all?
« Last Edit: March 13, 2015, 08:02:43 PM by Skynet »

Offline FormlessTopic starter

Re: Islam , A variety of discussions from a non extreme perspective.
« Reply #286 on: March 13, 2015, 08:37:39 PM »
Such ' ranking ' for the Holy mosques is a bit crucial & sentimental.

At the beginning of Mohammad's prophecy , Muslims would face the direction of Al-Aqsa mosque during prayers. ( This is what we call in Islamic terms as ' Qiblah '. Which is the direction a Muslim faces during prayer time. )

However , after Mohammad immigrated from Makkah to Medina , he received orders from God through Gabriel to declare the Kaaba ( The cubical structure at the center of the Holy Mosque in Makkah ) as their new Qiblah. Are from hence forth , it shall always be the Muslim's Qiblah until the end of time.

There's even a Mosque in Medina with two ' Mihrabs '. ( Mihrab is the place where the Imam who leads the Muslims during prayer , stands. ) One facing Al-aqsa & one facing Kaaba.

Now that we established the transfer of Qiblah comes the reason behind the rankings.

The Holy Mosque in Makkah is the first and foremost religious landmark for all Muslims. To them it is the most spiritual spot in the world. But more importantly , it is the Qiblah , and it is where the Hajj occurs. Which makes it a necessary spot to visit ( given they can afford it ) to complete their Islamic pillars and duties.

The Prophet's Mosque comes in second as it became the place where Mohammad would teach his fellowship about Islam. It is where he mostly prayed , taught and spent his time at. It was also a refugee ground. Meaning , when one sought peace and refuge from a problem , they could go in there and demand a fair trial. So no harm shall falls a refuge until he is proven guilty. And during the times back then , there weren't any judges and justice was defined and retrieved by one's hand. Another reason why the Mosque was also considered a court. But after the prophet , a court house was established else where.

Now there was no official ranking in Qur'an or Hadith for these mosques. Its only by Islamic value that the Makkah mosque would be the most important.

But there's a Hadith by Mohammad that said " Immigration should only be to three spots in the world. The Holy Mosque , My Mosque and the Aqsa Mosque. '

It just became a common knowledge for people to favor the two mosques over Al-aqsa , even when Al-aqsa was a holy land long before Mohammad was even born. But perhaps because Al Qiblah was directed away from the Aqsa it was less favored.

Hope this answer your question.

Offline Oniya

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Re: Islam , A variety of discussions from a non extreme perspective.
« Reply #287 on: March 13, 2015, 08:55:17 PM »
I learned something interesting today while browsing the Internet.  If you go to a hotel in an area with a significant Muslim population, you'll see an arrow either on the ceiling or inside the little bedside table drawer (along with a copy of the Koran).  Before the hotel is opened for customers, the staff goes around to each room and determines the proper direction to face for the daily prayers (thank you, GPS).  The arrows serve as a convenient guide for guests who may be disoriented by a strange building layout in an unfamiliar town. 

Offline Caehlim

Re: Islam , A variety of discussions from a non extreme perspective.
« Reply #288 on: March 13, 2015, 08:55:46 PM »
Thanks formless, that was a really interesting and very detailed answer.

I'm curious about how Muslims approach repentance from sin. Thanks to seeing it depicted on television I'm familiar with the catholic idea of confession but I'm not certain if there are similar traditions within Islam.

If a Muslim feels that they have done something wrong that goes against their faith, how do they go about righting that wrong and redeeming themselves?

Offline Caehlim

Re: Islam , A variety of discussions from a non extreme perspective.
« Reply #289 on: March 13, 2015, 08:58:47 PM »
I learned something interesting today while browsing the Internet.  If you go to a hotel in an area with a significant Muslim population, you'll see an arrow either on the ceiling or inside the little bedside table drawer (along with a copy of the Koran).  Before the hotel is opened for customers, the staff goes around to each room and determines the proper direction to face for the daily prayers (thank you, GPS).  The arrows serve as a convenient guide for guests who may be disoriented by a strange building layout in an unfamiliar town.

This makes me wonder whether there is a smartphone app these days that shows the direction of Qibla.

Offline Oniya

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Re: Islam , A variety of discussions from a non extreme perspective.
« Reply #290 on: March 13, 2015, 09:00:07 PM »
This makes me wonder whether there is a smartphone app these days that shows the direction of Qibla.

Of course there's an app for that.

Offline FormlessTopic starter

Re: Islam , A variety of discussions from a non extreme perspective.
« Reply #291 on: March 13, 2015, 09:08:29 PM »
Of course there's an app for that.

Yep. There's always an app for that. And all hotels in Saudia , to name a country , include an arrow that direct the customers to the Qiblah. And even with smartphones , they're still doing it here. Some even provide a prayer matt , so people can lay it down and stand on it during prayer.

Offline Caehlim

Re: Islam , A variety of discussions from a non extreme perspective.
« Reply #292 on: March 13, 2015, 09:10:32 PM »
Of course there's an app for that.

I really shouldn't be surprised I guess. That seems like a really awesome and handy invention for traveling Muslims.

Offline FormlessTopic starter

Re: Islam , A variety of discussions from a non extreme perspective.
« Reply #293 on: March 13, 2015, 09:22:40 PM »
Thanks formless, that was a really interesting and very detailed answer.

I'm curious about how Muslims approach repentance from sin. Thanks to seeing it depicted on television I'm familiar with the catholic idea of confession but I'm not certain if there are similar traditions within Islam.

If a Muslim feels that they have done something wrong that goes against their faith, how do they go about righting that wrong and redeeming themselves?

Repentance is between a Muslim and God. When a Muslim commits a sin , he is taught that he can speak to God whenever he feels the needs to. Some minor sins requires only the feel of regret to be cleansed.

An example would be ... Let's say a Muslim got into an argument , and out of anger , they insulted the other person. They must apologize , but to repent from such a minor sin , they can say ' Astaghfir Allah .' Which means , I ask god to forgive me.

But this is the minor sins that one might commit so easily.

Other greater sins requires a harsher method to be cleansed.

An example would be adultery. If one commit adultery , their cleansing depends if they are married or not. If they're not married , then they are whipped a thousand whips in public , and exiled. But since at this day there is no meaning for exile , they are imprisoned a certain number of years that a judge can decide.

if they're married , they are stoned to death.

If someone steals , their hand is severed. ( Surprisingly , with as much thievery and outrageous stealing crimes happening in my country , the last one to have his hand severed after being captured was 45 years ago. )

A False oath in a court is a great sin that requires one to feed 200 poor people to cleanse their sin and fast for two months.

Murder is only cleansed by murder , and even then we're told that they must spend sometime in hell in the after life for committing that crime.

There is also a conflicted idea regarding repentance from crimes such as adultery ... There's a hadith from Mohammad that says in meaning ( Cannot retrieve the original text right now ) ' That if one commit a crime under the veil of secrecy , and repent to god with a pure heart. Then they can confine in god and let him be his judge in the after world. '

The conflict aspires from the idea that one can simply commit atrocities and claim that he have requested god's forgiveness. But some say that if no one was harmed by a sin , then whose to say that one should be punished. Of course most Muslim Imams when discussing this point are taking Adultery into account and only adultery.

There's also the notion about ignorance about certain sins. Ignorance is an excuse to be forgiven by god.

Meaning , if a new convert to Islam committed a sin. And he wasn't aware of it at the time , then he is forgiven as he had no prior knowledge about it. This of course never applies to great sins.

In essence , there's sins that harm others which require cleansing. And there's sins that barely affecting others , which requires a pleading heart for forgiveness and a soul full of regret for committing such a sin.

Hope this answers your question. :-)

Offline Caehlim

Re: Islam , A variety of discussions from a non extreme perspective.
« Reply #294 on: March 13, 2015, 09:37:18 PM »
Thankyou again Formless, that was a great help.

You mentioned something interesting during your post though, that a murder would require spending some time in hell in order to be cleansed. Does this mean that hell is sometimes temporary within Islam with a person's soul moving on to heaven after an appropriate period of time in hell? Is this considered to be a different hell (much like some Christians have believed in purgatory) or is it the same hell to which someone could be permanently condemned?

(sorry, I hope I'm not pestering with too many questions here).

Offline FormlessTopic starter

Re: Islam , A variety of discussions from a non extreme perspective.
« Reply #295 on: March 13, 2015, 09:57:18 PM »
There's never any pestering! Always ask and I will always answer. And this applies to everyone in this beautiful community! ;D

As for your question Caehlim. Heaven and Hell are the ultimate destination for humans in the Islamic faith. But its not as simple as that.

First , to determine who goes where , there is the accumulated Hasanat & Say'at that a person had until his death. ( Explanation can be found in this post regarding this issue. )

We're taught as Muslims that as long as your Hasanat is greater than your Say'at , then your ultimate destination is Heaven. And if its the opposite then your ultimate destination is Hell.

But there is more to it. Some deeds are punishable regardless of how much of a virtuous and religious person you are. Apostasy condemn you to an eternity in hell.

Now during Judgment day , God will weigh each human's Hasanat and Say'at on his holy scale. ( It is said that Judgment day will last a thousand days of our own regular days by count. )

After the weighing and god's judgment has been set upon the human. He taken to Heaven and Hell. The way it is described. Hell is before Heaven. And there is a bridge we call it ' Assirat ' in Arabic , that connects the land with heaven , and crosses over Hell. Each person , regardless of who they are or what they they judgment was must walk over this bridge. Those condemned to hell will fall. Those who are sentenced to spend sometime in hell will fall. Those who are sent to heaven will pass. And it is said that those weighed by their sins will march slower in this bridge. So the lesser sin a person has , the greater his speed is.

This is how the process is told in our religion.

I hope that answers your question. :-)

Offline Caehlim

Re: Islam , A variety of discussions from a non extreme perspective.
« Reply #296 on: March 13, 2015, 10:40:30 PM »
Thanks, that was very clear.

Offline FormlessTopic starter

Re: Islam , A variety of discussions from a non extreme perspective.
« Reply #297 on: March 13, 2015, 10:47:02 PM »
You're very welcome.

Offline Wajin

Re: Islam , A variety of discussions from a non extreme perspective.
« Reply #298 on: March 14, 2015, 06:33:01 AM »
So I thought I'd share this with you all, since it made me quite happy.

My brother came around yesterday with his wife. He's still a Muslim, so he asked my oldest daughter if she wanted to come and see the Friday prayers at the Mosque where we came as children, and she said yes. Anyway, flash forward till they came back in the evening, takes a while to get there, and my daughter was just beaming with joy, and my brother was saying that everyone had loved her there, which made me so happy. So they told me that after she had watched it all, of course with the permission of the Imam and the rest of the men gathered there, she talked a bit to the Iman, who is a childhood friend of mine, who asked her if she believed in Allah, to which she answered in Arabic (afraid I haven't been teaching her, that goes to my brother :P) that she did not believe in god, but believed in A god. When asked to elaborate in danish, she told him that she found it weird that there were all these different gods all over, and that she thought some of the rules she had heard of were strange, so she made her own god, a god who is only as good as those who believe in him, and who has room for everyone, even if they don't believe in him. That made me rather happy, but what made me more happy was that the Imam didn't scold her, he didn't try to push Islam upon her. He just said that if that belief made her happy, and that made her world just a bit better, then she should keep believing in that, and keep telling others about it. Then he gave her her own Qur'an and told her that when she was old enough and skilled enough, she could look through it, that it would be more of a guide to her, than a rulebook, and then he gave her an SNES game that the bastard had forgotten to give back to me. But yeah, that who thing made me very happy, and I am so proud of her.

Offline FormlessTopic starter

Re: Islam , A variety of discussions from a non extreme perspective.
« Reply #299 on: March 14, 2015, 10:17:24 AM »
That's nice to hear. ;D

Sadly if this happened in my country it'll cause way too much uproar. ::)