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Author Topic: Islam , A variety of discussions from a non extreme perspective.  (Read 35330 times)

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Offline ladia2287

Re: Islam , A variety of discussions from a non extreme perspective.
« Reply #150 on: May 11, 2014, 09:05:35 PM »
I was wondering if you’re okay with those other than Formless offering their $0.02? If not please feel free to disregard this. : )

Having been raised in an ultra-conservative Sunni family that conformed to Hannfi principles to question hadith was a no-no. However having acquired a more independent juxtaposition in this matter later on I have come to wonder exactly how authentic hadith and its practical implications really are. Whether these are Muhammad’s quotes or perhaps we've been led to believe how they are... courtesy of the first two caliphates.

Though from what I recall should there be a certain contrariety betwixt the hadith and what’s in the Quran, the latter usually trumps the former. Should further clarification be needed the Sunnah (Muhammad’s mannerisms, actions, decisions, etc.) is usually referred to, but even in that case what’s supposed to be done is follow the written scripture.

Of course in this case it’s easy to see Muhammad did not execute the person i.e. Bedouin who walked away. If the writer’s argument about adhering to the collective rather than the faith is to taken into perspective, it still does not explain why the Al Saud family would apply all atheists under the terrorist label. Perhaps the Wahabi school of thought has a lot to with that? That’s the only explanation that comes to mind. That and the hadith on how should someone change their religion they should be killed.

I cannot profess to know how Hadiths are verified/authenticated, but I do find it strange that a 'genuine' Hadith would appear to contradict the Qu'ran, as my understanding is that they are supposed to be extensions of the Qu'ran's teachings.

That being said, Saudi Arabia has, since it's inception, been a kingdom governed by very conservative religious beliefs and practices. I have read of many instances where religious authorities objected to what they perceived as a threat to the Islamic way of life and thus placed pressure on lawmakers. Not many people nowadays would remember that non-Muslims residing in Saudi Arabia were once exempt from the ban on alcohol, for instance. Nowadays, if caught, they receive the same penalties as a Muslim resident, thanks to pressure from religious leaders.

I suspect this instance of outlawing atheism may be more of the same, if it is true.

Offline Kythia

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Re: Islam , A variety of discussions from a non extreme perspective.
« Reply #151 on: May 11, 2014, 09:08:41 PM »
I cannot profess to know how Hadiths are verified/authenticated, but I do find it strange that a 'genuine' Hadith would appear to contradict the Qu'ran, as my understanding is that they are supposed to be extensions of the Qu'ran's teachings.


Not quite.  Or not totally.  They're collections of....errrr...snippets of Mohammed's life - is the quickest way to describe them.  This is how he ate, this is what he did in situation x, this is how he dealt with situation y.  Each hadith comes with a chain - can't remember the name of it - which is the "so and so told so and so told so and so told etc." of how it got from the companions to us.  A whole load of work went in to verifying them.

EDIT:  isnad - the name of the chain of verification.
« Last Edit: May 11, 2014, 09:11:42 PM by Kythia »

Offline Derwaysh

Re: Islam , A variety of discussions from a non extreme perspective.
« Reply #152 on: May 11, 2014, 09:37:55 PM »
Not many people nowadays would remember that non-Muslims residing in Saudi Arabia were once exempt from the ban on alcohol, for instance. Nowadays, if caught, they receive the same penalties as a Muslim resident, thanks to pressure from religious leaders.

I suspect this instance of outlawing atheism may be more of the same, if it is true.

So many things have been altered sadly. I recall reading how the haj (the ‘longer pilgrimage’ as opposed to the shorter one ‘umra’) usually encompassed of singing and dancing whilst performing the necessary particulars. Of course it would be beyond question to even put this possibility forth presently.

Not quite.  Or not totally.  They're collections of....errrr...snippets of Mohammed's life - is the quickest way to describe them.  This is how he ate, this is what he did in situation x, this is how he dealt with situation y.  Each hadith comes with a chain - can't remember the name of it - which is the "so and so told so and so told so and so told etc." of how it got from the companions to us.  A whole load of work went in to verifying them.

EDIT:  isnad - the name of the chain of verification.

I think you’re referring to the Sunnah? Hadiths are usually limited to what Muhammad spoke or has been recorded as saying on different occasions.



Wahabism had always existed in one form or another since the last couple hundred years. Came into existence in Al Najf and was quickly quelled by then Turkish governor. Abu Wahab however managed to gain a lot of notoriety and it’s still a debate whether he truly wished to see such radical changes were necessary to put Islam back into how glorious it used to be aka the geopolitical gains made or whether he actually desired a rebellion for political reasons.

Suffice to say fast forward to the first Great War and the one group that swore fealty to British efforts were the Al Saud family. Unfortunately I do not recall the exact mechanisms or how they came into power but common sense dictates they were established as a regime shortly after the Turks left. The masses have always been predominantly Sunni in the region so what better way to establish hegemony but to continue with the rhetoric Abu Wahab discovered a couple hundred years past? Back then it was clearly in tow with the Sunni principles only a whole lot stricter. With time I imagine things became a whole lot stringent.

Offline Kythia

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Re: Islam , A variety of discussions from a non extreme perspective.
« Reply #153 on: May 11, 2014, 09:44:46 PM »
I think you’re referring to the Sunnah? Hadiths are usually limited to what Muhammad spoke or has been recorded as saying on different occasions.

I'd certainly take your word for it over mine.  My understanding was that the taqrir were a subset of the hadith but, as I said, I've never thought too deeply about it and this is just odds and ends I've picked up.

In essence, you're probably right.

EDIT:  No, sorry.  The more I think on it...the hadith definitely include actions and not just limited to taqrir (though I could be wrong about the taqrir being ahadith)
« Last Edit: May 11, 2014, 09:58:59 PM by Kythia »

Offline Derwaysh

Re: Islam , A variety of discussions from a non extreme perspective.
« Reply #154 on: May 12, 2014, 01:43:59 AM »
This does expound how its both the sayings and the deeds. Thanks for pointing that out. Now I'm beginning to wonder why in the circles that I was raised in these deeds and mannerisms were more considered Sunnah rather than Hadith, including some of the imams who were very vehement in their distinction. Hopefully somebody else would be able to shed some light on this.

Offline FormlessTopic starter

Re: Islam , A variety of discussions from a non extreme perspective.
« Reply #155 on: May 12, 2014, 04:18:45 AM »
Kythia
1) Gasp in awe at my thread necromancy

2) I'm interested in what you think of this  Not the bumf about atheism at the beginning, the later part about the interpretation of the hadith and its applicability to the present day.

Its interesting to see the thread coming to life again. ;D

Now as for the article you linked Kythia , let me explain what I can. But I'll only provide my own insight. I do not claim to understand or govern the body of Islam in any way.

Contradictions within Islam has always been present. But with their existence , is it a question of why , or how did they come to exist?

Apostasy is a sudden absence of belief in a certain religion. It has existed in every form before. But for Islam , its quite different.

The article states a ' new law ' in Saudi Arabia about Apostasy. I had to search before I even posted here. But it was all a reminiscing of an old ' already existing ' law. Some of the human rights members in Saudi Arabia thought they should shed the light upon this part . Why? It is beyond me and I do not wish to disclose my opinion regarding their reasons. But there was no formal statement , or any public announcement about any rules regarding Apostasy.

Muslims in Saudia Arabia are brought up with the Belief that Islam is the one and only valid religion right now. Islam Acknowledges the other religions brought forth by the prophets of God. ( E.g. Judaism & Christianity ). And while Islam welcomes any who converts from these religions to Islam. It is unforgivable to abandon Islam for another religion.

But if you follow the historical events , you'll notice something critical regarding ' Apostasy'. There was never any trusted records about Muslims being executed for converting to another religion. Only those who wished to be unbound by any religion were executed. Why?

It is implied that Islam is one of the Religions that God Almighty ( The entity and Deity served by the trinity Heavenly Religions . Judaism , Christianity & Islam ) has bestowed upon mankind. And while it is unforgivable for one to relinquish the belief of Islam in favor of another. They still serve God. But when someone chooses not to believe in God at all. That is when Punishment becomes severe. This is one way to look at it.

Now back to the controversies in Islam. Does anyone know that at the early years of Muhammad's Prophecy , Drinking was allowed? There was even a verse in Quran that said " Do not attempt prayer while drunk and senseless. " It was understood that one was allowed to drink as long as they do not get drunk when it is time to pray. And there's five prayers to be performed everyday. But on the fifth year of Muhammad's rule in Medina , Drinking was forbidden at any time. This is one of the controversies that piqued at many who wished to relinquish the laws of Saudi Arabia.

Another would be Listening to Music. It is forbidden by a verse cited in Qur'an. However , Muhammad did not comment about it when the Muslims welcomed his first Arrival to Medina with songs and Music. And even now , The Royal Family of Saudi Arabia has their own anthem. And the Orchestra is always available to greet any guests of the Royal family under formal visits.

The reason I mentioned these examples is because of what I think regarding the laws of Apostasy. The Hadith could be fake. Or it could be true. If it was true , this my own reason for it. Islam was a slowly growing Religion during the days of Muhammad. One was bound to relinquish their beliefs , especially since Muslims were hunted down in Mekkah. But as it grew bigger and stronger , to maintain its strength , whose to say this law was invented to keep people from revoking their belief? Intimidation is a powerful tool , especially when it is associated with a punishment as severe as death.

The Khalifas that followed Muhammad has also enforced that rule as well. But now? I can't recall an instance where someone was beheaded for such a reason. Also , there's a lot of people from all over the world who belief in something else entirely. Buddhists , Hindus , Other religions from Africa and even Europe. Examples can be vast , but the point is. Did we ever execute any? Not really.

Another thing to point out regarding the the article linked within the original one. Stating that some people were holding signs in sacred places within the country that says ' They're Atheists '. Why would they do such a thing? And how would a country Ruled by an iron hammer reacts? Imagine someone walking into the Vatican , standing before St. Peter's Basilica , and holding a sign that contradicts Christianity. Why would someone do that? Why would someone choose to contradict a religion before its one of its sacred marks? Any authority would easily take it as an act of mockery. Wouldn't they retaliate. Of course this is all hypothetical. It never happened within the country , because if it did , it'll cause an uproar even among the citizens.

Atheism exists everywhere. And in Saudia Arabia too. Anyone can be an Atheist. If you do not attend the prayers in Mosques , no one will drag you to prison. If you do not fast during Ramadan , no one will cut your head off. But when you say it out loud , there will be ramifications. This is how the country is ruled. I could've have just committed apostasy right now by claiming that a Hadith could be fake. No one will hunt me down for it because I do not bother disclosing these beliefs with anyone close to me. This is how it goes , and this is how it will be for a long time.

I hope that helps clarify it Kythia.

Offline FormlessTopic starter

Re: Islam , A variety of discussions from a non extreme perspective.
« Reply #156 on: May 12, 2014, 04:37:20 AM »
Derwaysh
So many things have been altered sadly. I recall reading how the haj (the ‘longer pilgrimage’ as opposed to the shorter one ‘umra’) usually encompassed of singing and dancing whilst performing the necessary particulars. Of course it would be beyond question to even put this possibility forth presently.

I think you’re referring to the Sunnah? Hadiths are usually limited to what Muhammad spoke or has been recorded as saying on different occasions.



Wahabism had always existed in one form or another since the last couple hundred years. Came into existence in Al Najf and was quickly quelled by then Turkish governor. Abu Wahab however managed to gain a lot of notoriety and it’s still a debate whether he truly wished to see such radical changes were necessary to put Islam back into how glorious it used to be aka the geopolitical gains made or whether he actually desired a rebellion for political reasons.

Suffice to say fast forward to the first Great War and the one group that swore fealty to British efforts were the Al Saud family. Unfortunately I do not recall the exact mechanisms or how they came into power but common sense dictates they were established as a regime shortly after the Turks left. The masses have always been predominantly Sunni in the region so what better way to establish hegemony but to continue with the rhetoric Abu Wahab discovered a couple hundred years past? Back then it was clearly in tow with the Sunni principles only a whole lot stricter. With time I imagine things became a whole lot stringent.

regarding the Hajj comment. The Grand Islamic Pilgrimage. It isn't true what you just mentioned. Hajj was ordered by god to honor the memory of Hajar The Wife of Abraham ( In some historical books it is mentioned that she was a servant and not a wife. ) When Abraham and Hajar reached Mekkah , she was pregnant with his son Ishmael. And Abraham received the word of god to travel back to Egypt. He left her in a barren land , trusting her life and his son's to God.

As time went on , food and water was scarce. And Around her there were only two mountains. Al Safa & Al Marwa. She climbed each mountain back and forth , looking through the distance to see if she could see anyone crossing by. And to raise her hands and call upon god's mercy. ( Bear in mind the mountains weren't steep. ) Everytime she climbed a mountain , she left Ishmael in his cradle on the ground. But after her seventh climb , Ishmael became restless , kicking out of his cradle and right by his foot water began to flow out of the barren ground.

Thus bringing forth the concept of Hajj was born. There was no ... dancing or singing. Rather ,  Muslim is recommended to pray for god verbally and physically most of his time during the Pilgrimage.


Now as for Al Saud Family. I am not going to turn the thread to a political one. But the birth of Wahhabism was because Mohammad Abdul-Wahab ( Thus the name ) sought the aid of the family of Al Saud , who governed the central region of the Arabian peninsula at the time , to bring back the glory of Islam. Because during that time , the Arabs were slowly falling back into a religious darkness , praying for tombs or idols , just like it was before the time Mohammad the prophet received his prophecy.

And the conquest to unify Saudi Arabia began then. The British & The Americans were never involved. However after the Unification of Saudi Arabia , it was the Americans who first visited the country under formal banners.

This is my country's history.

Offline Derwaysh

Re: Islam , A variety of discussions from a non extreme perspective.
« Reply #157 on: May 12, 2014, 05:20:37 AM »
Formless,

From what I have studied thus far Wahhab was born into a religious family in 1703, that’s true. His father being a local judge in the town of Uyaina. At the time the practice of Islam in Arabia was relatively lax and there is plenty of evidence that states the pilgrimage of hajj was a time of music, procession, and songs. Sufism was widespread and it was not uncommon for Arabs in Nejd and Hejaz to pray at the tombs of Muslim saints (if that’s what you assert as ‘falling into darkness’ you’re pretty spot on).

However married at the age of twelve, the young Wahhab was soon to memorize the Quran and become a preacher of some capacity. The Islam he saw practiced around him greatly troubled him. He developed a particular appreciation of the works of Ibn Taymiyah, a scholar of the 13th century who took the opportunity of the vacuum created after the Mongol destruction of the Abbasids to propagate a harsh and extremist interpretation of Islam, suggesting God had punished the Muslims because of their lax attitude towards matters of faith.

Not intending to turn this into a political thread in the slightest. Since it’s titled ‘A Variety of Discussion’ I thought given the exposure I have to the Middle Eastern affairs I can perhaps address lovely Kythia’s enquiry. : )
« Last Edit: May 12, 2014, 05:35:59 AM by Derwaysh »

Offline Sabre

Re: Islam , A variety of discussions from a non extreme perspective.
« Reply #158 on: June 07, 2014, 12:21:56 PM »
I cannot profess to know how Hadiths are verified/authenticated, but I do find it strange that a 'genuine' Hadith would appear to contradict the Qu'ran, as my understanding is that they are supposed to be extensions of the Qu'ran's teachings.

In the beginning there was just the caliph and the oral tradition known as the Quran.  After a supposedly gilded age now referred to as the time of the Rightly Guided Caliphs, leadership was assumed by a dynasty known as the Umayyads.  Claiming sole authority in all matters of religion, they instituted policies that helped define Islam politically, usually in opposition to Byzantine Imperial Christian pretensions, which was why the center of their power base was ex-Roman Syria and it's capital in Damascus.  Meanwhile, opposing them in ex-Sassanid territory around the newly settled towns of Kufa and Basra were separatists of various kinds.  Some opposed the Umayyads as being misguided and corrupt destroyers of tradition, some opposed them as partisans of Ali and his family (later known as the Shi'a), and some just opposed them out of principle.

Orbiting these two loci was centuries of religious strife and evolution.  While the Syrians were shaped by Imperial Roman Christianity, the Mesopotamians were influenced by Rabbinical Judaism and Mobedli Zoroastrianism.  There they developed a form of religious law in opposition to the Ummayads, forming what we now know as the Hadiths and Shari'ah, and based on concepts developed in other religions (the center of Rabbinical Judaism that formulated much of Jewish law for instance was just 30 miles away from Kufa).

At the same time you had a social upheaval with converts flooding the new religion, and seeking to legitimize their own cultural or religious practices from their previous faiths began claiming that the prophet Muhammad or one of his close deputies had approved it.  Contradictory messages such as stoning, a Jewish custom, and death for apostasy, Zoroastrian priestly condemnation, thus arose despite whatever may be said to be written in the Quran.

Quote
That being said, Saudi Arabia has, since it's inception, been a kingdom governed by very conservative religious beliefs and practices. I have read of many instances where religious authorities objected to what they perceived as a threat to the Islamic way of life and thus placed pressure on lawmakers. Not many people nowadays would remember that non-Muslims residing in Saudi Arabia were once exempt from the ban on alcohol, for instance. Nowadays, if caught, they receive the same penalties as a Muslim resident, thanks to pressure from religious leaders.

I suspect this instance of outlawing atheism may be more of the same, if it is true.

This is a consequence of Islamism, or the encroachment of Shari'ah into the concept of national law of a nation-state.  Conceptually it had always been the case that a law was personal, defined by the allegiances of the individual.  But now law is understood geographically, which leads to the above situation.
« Last Edit: June 07, 2014, 12:24:47 PM by Sabre »

Offline FormlessTopic starter

Re: Islam , A variety of discussions from a non extreme perspective.
« Reply #159 on: September 08, 2014, 12:42:07 PM »
There has been a few points from a few users in this thread that I'd like to address.

@Kythia : In regards to the Fatwa system , it is very similar to how you described it. The fatwa ( Which means religious elaboration ) was invented so any issues from the new world that conflicted with the dated teachings of Islam can be resolved. Be it allowed or forbidden. And surprisingly nothing new has ever been forbidden so far.



@Valthazar : You asked me why I do not wish to be called a ' Moderate Muslim '. Here's the reason.

Muslims like me , Are practicing Islam how it is supposed to. The extremists aren't Muslims , they never will be. The world shouldn't even acknowledge their identity as Muslims. By doing so , ' Moderate ' Muslims would have much more trouble trying to clarify how they aren't affiliated with those heathens.

When the world acknowledge my peaceful take of the religion as the true essence of Islam , then that is one step towards correcting Islam itself. When a terrorist is denied their Islamist identity by both Muslims and the world , then slowly these terrorists will be nothing more than terrorists. Flags without a name and harbored by themselves only.

This is why I think I should be called a Muslim plain and simple. And not them. And i can provide as many facts from Islam itself that those  extremists are not Muslims.

Islam doesn't allow bloodshed for any reason. It does encourage self defense , it praise those who serves justice. But first we have to establish Justice to begin with. What the ISIS are doing for example is nothing more than abusing what ... which verse in Quran or Hadith commands what they did? None.

In battle , Islam praise the ' Shuhada ' ( Those who die in battle ) But what nation across the folds of history did not make such a praise. But Islam , The Quran , or the Hadith ever stated to start war. And ISIS did start war. Why? To expand Islam's influence? What for?

A Muslim believes in God's rule over the whole world. And a Muslim believes that god bestowed the right to live over all his subjects. So whose to say to kill another being , be it Muslim or not? None. Verses taken from Quran that praised the fellowship of Mohammad during his Makka conquest shouldn't be cited in this day and age , because there's nothing to gain. Markka held the Holy Mosque , and that is why Mohammad had to fight for it.

However , the fellowship ( Caliphates ) started their own conquests after Mohammad's death. That is their own political mistake which no Muslim should shoulder. But it happened. And it happened during an age where war and battles waged much more frequently now. However , now there's a political system that governs the world. There's the UN and other systems that influence and ensures the political justice across the globe. So a Muslim abides by that , because its the way of peace. Raising an arm for a failed conquest is one thing Islam Condemn. This is why most' moderate Muslims ' are more accepting to the political situation of the world. Because we choose to live in peace.

So again I have to say it. Don't call an extremist a Muslim , because they're not.

Another point I'd like to address would be the schooling system. A country should do what they find is best for their schooling. My Country , Saudi Arabia , has done a complete overhaul to the religious classes taught in schools.

During my days , Jihad was a constant element associated with history and religion classes. Now its merely a single part of history classes. The Religion council in my country realized the danger of extremists. It should be fair to mention that Al qaeda launched several terrorist attacks inside Saudia. And that set the alarm for the government to take action. So even we condemn any acts against the sanctity of life.

We shouldn't forget as many have mentioned that Islam encourages virtues that any religion or non religion culture encourages too. Truth , Honesty , Kindness and compassion.

Heck Islam even punishes those who mistreat an animal by sending them to hell. Let alone a human being.

That is all I had to say about these issues. And i hope it clarified my view.

Offline Valthazar

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Re: Islam , A variety of discussions from a non extreme perspective.
« Reply #160 on: September 08, 2014, 01:14:34 PM »
@Valthazar : You asked me why I do not wish to be called a ' Moderate Muslim '. Here's the reason.

Muslims like me , Are practicing Islam how it is supposed to. The extremists aren't Muslims , they never will be. The world shouldn't even acknowledge their identity as Muslims. By doing so , ' Moderate ' Muslims would have much more trouble trying to clarify how they aren't affiliated with those heathens.

When the world acknowledge my peaceful take of the religion as the true essence of Islam , then that is one step towards correcting Islam itself. When a terrorist is denied their Islamist identity by both Muslims and the world , then slowly these terrorists will be nothing more than terrorists. Flags without a name and harbored by themselves only.

This is why I think I should be called a Muslim plain and simple. And not them. And i can provide as many facts from Islam itself that those  extremists are not Muslims.

What do you think about Muslims who try to spread their religion into Western institutions? 

There are a lot of threads in PROC regarding people denouncing Christians who try to spread their religion into public life, as many Muslims also do.

Something that made me angry: Christians vs "demonic yoga"
Catholic high school in Wash. dismisses vice-principal over same-sex marriage.
Why I am an atheist
Dominionism, Christianity and the United States

We are rightfully quick to label these individuals above as "radical Christians."

My question to you is, do you think it is justified for a Muslim in a Western country to "spread their religion" into Western institutions - like schools, universities, etc.?  Or is this representative of only "radicals?"  (aka non-muslims, as you suggest).

Because prominent, integrated, and "British" Muslim organizations in the UK, such as the The Muslim Council of Britain were involved in active initiatives to overthrow secular institutions in Britain - like entire school districts in major British cities.  Keep in mind that the Muslim Council of Britain is a national representative Muslim umbrella body with over 500 affiliated national, regional and local organizations, mosques, charities and schools.

In addition, the Association of Muslim Schools (which according to its site is an international network of Muslim faith-based educational institutes) worked with the Muslim Council of Britain to intentionally make changes to curriculum and education plans, including increasing the faith component, and attempts were made to introduce Sharia law in school.  They also attempted to force British teachers (non-muslim) out of their positions.

Would you consider these internationally-recognized Muslim organizations as not Muslim?  Because to me, they represent radicals, in which case, the question arises - why are the most influential "Muslim" organizations in Britain radicalized?

Offline FormlessTopic starter

Re: Islam , A variety of discussions from a non extreme perspective.
« Reply #161 on: September 08, 2014, 01:34:18 PM »
If you're asking for my own opinion regarding this matter. Then I have already stated what I think.

Another point I'd like to address would be the schooling system. A country should do what they find is best for their schooling. My Country , Saudi Arabia , has done a complete overhaul to the religious classes taught in schools.

In regards to Britain , I don't think we should dismiss the authority figures that would accepts or deny the addition of Islamic or any other religious' teachings. Its a national matter that the country themselves can handle.

Preachers of any religion can be radical or pacifists. A man who knocks on doors to preach about their religion deserves what is coming their way. People shouldn't be bothered with what others believe. However , in the right place . e.g. A Mosque for A Muslim & Church for a christian , they have every right to preach about their teachings. A non believer walking into such establishments should consider that they will receive some form of lecture.

So again , I'll have to say , any country has a governing structure that can handle any addition to their systems.

What I think of those Muslims trying to push their beliefs? I'd say they're not going about it the right way.

But are they going about it in a civil way? Are they abiding by the country's political system? And most importantly , are they including the extremists' views?

Religion should be a matter of choice to be taught in schools rather than being forcefully included. But again I still think a country can handle its own system.

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Re: Islam , A variety of discussions from a non extreme perspective.
« Reply #162 on: September 08, 2014, 02:14:55 PM »
In regards to Britain , I don't think we should dismiss the authority figures that would accepts or deny the addition of Islamic or any other religious' teachings. Its a national matter that the country themselves can handle.

I am surprised you are open to the idea of introducing Islam into various institutions in Britain if the authority figures accepted it. 

I think this is what many of us are concerned about in Western society. The vast majority of ethnic British have no desire to see their government and institutions ruled by Islamic law.  As a result, when Muslims openly discuss the possibility of Islam permeating into Western government/education as a viable possibility, it is concerning, to say the least.

Offline FormlessTopic starter

Re: Islam , A variety of discussions from a non extreme perspective.
« Reply #163 on: September 08, 2014, 02:34:46 PM »
I am surprised you are open to the idea of introducing Islam into various institutions in Britain if the authority figures accepted it.

I honestly do not know what could be so surprising about that.

It is a matter that concerns the British country. They have the right to do whatever they wish with it.

The same goes for my country if they find it best to add other religions to the schools. It offers the younger generations a chance to understand how the rest of the world practice their faiths instead of finding out on their own when they grow up and rejecting it because they did not grew up learning about it.

Politics is a delicate matter , and when combined with religion can be a very unstable mixture.

Offline ladia2287

Re: Islam , A variety of discussions from a non extreme perspective.
« Reply #164 on: September 08, 2014, 05:19:05 PM »
I am surprised you are open to the idea of introducing Islam into various institutions in Britain if the authority figures accepted it. 

I think this is what many of us are concerned about in Western society. The vast majority of ethnic British have no desire to see their government and institutions ruled by Islamic law.  As a result, when Muslims openly discuss the possibility of Islam permeating into Western government/education as a viable possibility, it is concerning, to say the least.

I'm not sure I follow... Are you saying that you think people are assuming that, because Muslims would like lessons about Islam to be part of the school curriculum, that they are suddenly going to push for Islamic law to be introduced? That seems a pretty big leap to me...

Offline Valthazar

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Re: Islam , A variety of discussions from a non extreme perspective.
« Reply #165 on: September 08, 2014, 06:01:04 PM »
I'm not sure I follow... Are you saying that you think people are assuming that, because Muslims would like lessons about Islam to be part of the school curriculum, that they are suddenly going to push for Islamic law to be introduced? That seems a pretty big leap to me...

It isn't what I think, it is what has already happened in the UK.  Operation Trojan Horse was an effort to slowly introduce elements of Islam into the schools through curricular modifications.  The Park View Educational Trust which runs six public schools in Birmingham (chaired by Tahir Alam), wrote a 72 page PDF document detailing a plan for the "Islamisation" of secular state school through the introduction of religious classes.  21 schools in Birmingham were victims of an organized campaign by Islamists, which aimed to marginalize and force out existing head teachers for their position, and replace them with Muslims.  I explained in this post several of the secondary and tertiary curricular modifications that were officially planned in addition to Islamic lessons.

Earlier in this thread, I mentioned two of the chief organizations behind this initiative - the Muslim Council of Britain, and the Association of Muslim Schools.  These are not fringe organizations, but arguably two of the more mainstream avenues for Muslim discourse in the Western world.  In the Vision & Aims Statement of AMS, it states, "our vision is to provide high quality services and support for the development of excellence in Muslim schools; nurturing love of knowledge, continuous pursuit of taqwa (God consciousness) and Ihsan (excellence) in all spheres of life for learners and educators."  I don't think anyone would take issue with this.  Muslim schools in the West are entitled to teach whatever Islamic lessons they so desire.  But it becomes problematic when the primary support organization for Muslim schools in the West is directly involved with a 20-year long initiative to spread segregation, Shariah philosophy, and anti-West rhetoric to secular public schools.

The Muslim Council of Britain was the organization that was perhaps more involved than AMS in this conspiracy.  According to their "About MCB" page, they are, "pledged to work for the common good of society as a whole; encouraging individual Muslims and Muslim organisations to play a full and participatory role in public life."  It is a noble purpose, and the page also features an inspiring Youtube Video about a peaceful expression of Islam.   Many of us would be willing to support their initiatives, if not for the fact that they were covertly plotting an internal take over of various school districts in multiple UK cities.

The reaction of the MCB has been one of largely denial - despite the fact that Birmingham MP, Khalid Mahmood, has said a council investigation provided a conspiracy did exist.

My personal opinion is that it is not a good idea to be teaching any religion, unless for historical purposes.

Offline FormlessTopic starter

Re: Islam , A variety of discussions from a non extreme perspective.
« Reply #166 on: September 08, 2014, 06:24:16 PM »
My personal opinion is that it is not a good idea to be teaching any religion, unless for historical purposes.

Indeed.

Another thing I'd like to point out is the meaning of the word ' Ihsan '. It means ' The goodwill of an act '. As in ' going charity with Ihsan . ' ( If that makes any sense. )

As for the Trojan Horse you mention. I still say that any country has a ruling system of each field. Surely the Ministry of Education in Britain or any equivalent authority was aware of the changes. Weren't they?

Besides , if a Muslim reached a position within the educational structure , surely that was given by a higher officer within that same structure? Such things can't be run under blind eyes now would they?

Even if a document written by someone ... and whatever it may contain. They haven't introduced anything harmful yet? And yet I am sure the authority would be there to intervene should the necessity arise. Wouldn't you agree with me Valthazar?

Offline Valthazar

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Re: Islam , A variety of discussions from a non extreme perspective.
« Reply #167 on: September 08, 2014, 06:49:23 PM »
As for the Trojan Horse you mention. I still say that any country has a ruling system of each field. Surely the Ministry of Education in Britain or any equivalent authority was aware of the changes. Weren't they?

Besides , if a Muslim reached a position within the educational structure , surely that was given by a higher officer within that same structure? Such things can't be run under blind eyes now would they?

You may be surprised how many Muslims have achieved very prominent positions in government and education in the UK.  Here is a list of Councillors in Birmingham, UK.  Scan through those names, and count how many Muslims you see on there.

Sadly, things were under blind eyes in this case.  Tahir Alam was the head of the hierarchy in Birmingham.  The entire board of trustees at the school were dominated by Muslims.  Upon light of this Trojan Horse scheme, Alam and his entire board of trustees resigned.  The way things are at the moment, things are under blind eyes, largely because people are afraid of being perceived as racist.

Even if a document written by someone ... and whatever it may contain. They haven't introduced anything harmful yet? And yet I am sure the authority would be there to intervene should the necessity arise. Wouldn't you agree with me Valthazar?

No, these plans were indeed put into action. 

Posters were found in the classrooms encouraging children to begin lessons with a Muslim prayer, one saying: “If you do not pray, you are worse than a kafir”, and staff reported that loudspeakers were set up in the school to broadcast a call to prayer.

Children were taught that all Christians are liars and attempts were made to introduce Sharia law in classrooms.  Schools put up posters warning children that if they didn't pray they would "go to hell", Christmas was cancelled and girls were taught that women who refused to have sex with their husbands would be "punished" by angels "from dusk to dawn".   Another teacher told the children that were "lucky to be Muslims and not ignorant like Christians and Jews.

In the elementary/primary schools, it was found that pupils had limited knowledge of any religion apart from Islam.  Subjects such as Personal, Social and Health Education, Biology and Sex and Relationships Education were bowdlerised to conform with a conservative Islamic teaching.  A former staff member said that one teacher had handed out a worksheet stating that women “must obey their husbands,” and told his class that wives were forbidden from refusing their husbands sex.

Keep in mind that the MCB (one of the most prominent avenues for communication of Islam in Great Britain), is the one responsible for this.  Check out their YouTube video - it portrays itself as very peaceful and welcoming.  This is why I express concern.

Offline FormlessTopic starter

Re: Islam , A variety of discussions from a non extreme perspective.
« Reply #168 on: September 08, 2014, 07:03:06 PM »
No, these plans were indeed put into action. 

Posters were found in the classrooms encouraging children to begin lessons with a Muslim prayer, one saying: “If you do not pray, you are worse than a kafir”, and staff reported that loudspeakers were set up in the school to broadcast a call to prayer.

Children were taught that all Christians are liars and attempts were made to introduce Sharia law in classrooms.  Schools put up posters warning children that if they didn't pray they would "go to hell", Christmas was cancelled and girls were taught that women who refused to have sex with their husbands would be "punished" by angels "from dusk to dawn".   Another teacher told the children that were "lucky to be Muslims and not ignorant like Christians and Jews.

In the elementary/primary schools, it was found that pupils had limited knowledge of any religion apart from Islam.  Subjects such as Personal, Social and Health Education, Biology and Sex and Relationships Education were bowdlerised to conform with a conservative Islamic teaching.  A former staff member said that one teacher had handed out a worksheet stating that women “must obey their husbands,” and told his class that wives were forbidden from refusing their husbands sex.

These acts are wrong on many levels. Vigilantes of Islam are still resorting to using intimidation and fear tactics to teach children.

I actually see how this may cause concern.

But , and I think it is best to carry it to another thread and expand on it , how was this allowed to happen for sometime without any intervention from the Ministry of Education there? Surely someone from the ministry would make a random visit to a random school and happens to see such actions? Unless those surprise visitors happened to be Muslim supervisors as well?

In any case , I myself wouldn't accept that kind of treatment in schools.

Offline Zakharra

Re: Islam , A variety of discussions from a non extreme perspective.
« Reply #169 on: September 08, 2014, 07:06:24 PM »
Indeed.

Another thing I'd like to point out is the meaning of the word ' Ihsan '. It means ' The goodwill of an act '. As in ' going charity with Ihsan . ' ( If that makes any sense. )

As for the Trojan Horse you mention. I still say that any country has a ruling system of each field. Surely the Ministry of Education in Britain or any equivalent authority was aware of the changes. Weren't they?

Besides , if a Muslim reached a position within the educational structure , surely that was given by a higher officer within that same structure? Such things can't be run under blind eyes now would they?

Even if a document written by someone ... and whatever it may contain. They haven't introduced anything harmful yet? And yet I am sure the authority would be there to intervene should the necessity arise. Wouldn't you agree with me Valthazar?

 From what I read off of the report on the Trojan horde report, some of the local authorities were aware, but kept their mouths shut for fear of being labeled as racist and anti-Islamic. But the for the rest of the outside authorities, they were unaware because the taken over governors and such tried to keep it quiet. Why? Because of the reaction that would have happened (and did) if the knowledge of what they were doing ever got out.

 I think you are missing one of the points Valthazar is trying to say; the muslim people on the governor positions of the school boards were trying to instill religious control on a secular school system. If I am right,  that is the issue. Not that they tried to bring awareness of the muslim religion, but that those people tried to put their religion in control of the schools. And that is a very very bad thing to have happen. From any religion..

 You seem to think it's alright if the school board and education ministries/departments are alright with that, but I find that view kind of suspect. Why should any religion be able to control the curriculum of a school system? Why should any religion be able to dictate what goes on in that school and what's taught? No religion has or should have that right or authority to do that.  If they want to teach that in their own private schools, ok I guess, but in secular schools? Hell no.


Offline Blythe

Re: Islam , A variety of discussions from a non extreme perspective.
« Reply #170 on: September 08, 2014, 07:35:13 PM »
Operation Trojan Horse really belongs in its own topic, as it revolves around a specific controversy, and this thread is more for intellectual questioning and discussion of Islam as a religion in general rather than honing in one controversy in particular.
« Last Edit: September 08, 2014, 07:36:17 PM by Blythe »

Offline FormlessTopic starter

Re: Islam , A variety of discussions from a non extreme perspective.
« Reply #171 on: September 08, 2014, 07:39:25 PM »
From what I read off of the report on the Trojan horde report, some of the local authorities were aware, but kept their mouths shut for fear of being labeled as racist and anti-Islamic. But the for the rest of the outside authorities, they were unaware because the taken over governors and such tried to keep it quiet. Why? Because of the reaction that would have happened (and did) if the knowledge of what they were doing ever got out.

 I think you are missing one of the points Valthazar is trying to say; the muslim people on the governor positions of the school boards were trying to instill religious control on a secular school system. If I am right,  that is the issue. Not that they tried to bring awareness of the muslim religion, but that those people tried to put their religion in control of the schools. And that is a very very bad thing to have happen. From any religion..

 You seem to think it's alright if the school board and education ministries/departments are alright with that, but I find that view kind of suspect. Why should any religion be able to control the curriculum of a school system? Why should any religion be able to dictate what goes on in that school and what's taught? No religion has or should have that right or authority to do that.  If they want to teach that in their own private schools, ok I guess, but in secular schools? Hell no.

It is alright because that is the country's matter ... Not mine. As an individual , I have no right to judge what a country choose to do on its own soil. That is the simple of it.

Let us say that after the wake of this Trojan incident , Britain chose to ban Islamic teachings from all schools. I wouldn't judge that either because it isn't my place to do so. There's a figure of authority for a reason. And its not my place to question what they do.

As for the disclusion of religion in schools. I agree that no religion should be singularly taught in schools. But rather , as much as can be taught. If the children grew up to realize there is a vast different in beliefs in the world , they'd be more accepting of such differences. A Saudi child would grow to know there's more religions than Christianity and Judaism. He should know there's far too many beliefs that people choose to follow.

But that is just a silly man's dream.

Offline FormlessTopic starter

Re: Islam , A variety of discussions from a non extreme perspective.
« Reply #172 on: September 08, 2014, 07:40:18 PM »
Operation Trojan Horse really belongs in its own topic, as it revolves around a specific controversy, and this thread is more for intellectual questioning and discussion of Islam as a religion in general rather than honing in one controversy in particular.

I second this , and will be willing to participate in that discussion should it take place.

Offline Valthazar

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Re: Islam , A variety of discussions from a non extreme perspective.
« Reply #173 on: September 08, 2014, 08:08:29 PM »
As instructed, I have created a new thread for us:

https://elliquiy.com/forums/index.php?topic=213138.0

Offline Callie Del Noire

Re: Islam , A variety of discussions from a non extreme perspective.
« Reply #174 on: September 08, 2014, 08:41:58 PM »
I had a list of men, and a few woman, of the faith who I thought were an excellent moderating influence in their communities.

Sadly I lost it when I accidentally slicked my tablet (apparently IT'S bookmarks weren't synched like the rest) and I'm bummed out. There were a lot of men and women throughout the Islamic world who are working to find a peaceful balance between their faith and the rest of the world and/or the 21st Century.

Sadly up till lately a lot of governments sponsored extremist groups for a lot of reasons. Syria, for example, used them to destablize groups within their own country and their neighbors like Lebanon.

One of the few i can recall is Maajid Nawaz who did an interesting Ted talk a few years ago.

Interesting man.

I'll ahve to see if I can find the iTunes U article that had him and several others that got me thinking of how events came about.