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Author Topic: Islam , A variety of discussions from a non extreme perspective.  (Read 35570 times)

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Offline Retribution

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Re: Islam , A variety of discussions from a non extreme perspective.
« Reply #125 on: October 29, 2013, 09:53:23 PM »
ValthazarElite

Well , You did point out the key element to this whole argument. Its been only two decades. But Islam came into the negative side of the spotlight because of the 9/11 incident. Before that fateful day , to the whole world , Islam was just ' another religion out there '. It wasn't significant in the media , there were still anti-islamic debates that goes on , but there were mere opinions to the beholder. But after 9/11 , Islam was brought out to the whole world.

Now the whole world knows about Islam , but under the wrong concept. And what fortified that concept was how some Extremists tried to further the emotional impact the 9/11incident caused. Its like they wanted Islam to be ' feared '. Sadly it was only tainted and tarnished. Hated and resented. I don't really blame whoever was exposed to Islam after that incident , if they feared any Muslim. The correcting movement of Islam began too late. But I do hope someday , things will be much clearer to the whole world.

To further the discussion about the demographic debate would take a political path. I wouldn't mind participating if it was in another thread. It is best to save this thread for an informative purpose if possible.

Being one of those blue eyed Midwestern guys, what you touched on here Formless is what baffles me the most. And I will admit until having this discussion with you I was well on the way to having a nasty hatred of all things Islam despite my best efforts to reason. As you touched on it is kind of to be expected after something like 9/11 though that does not justify it.

Having said all of that the heart of my point is that I look at things like 9/11 and wonder how to hell Bin Laden thought that would turn out well? How do these extremists feel that by acts of murder the world will see them as a prophet or what have you? Or going beyond 9/11 other acts of great violence by other extremists and then they seem shocked that it does not work out. For a long time I subscribed such a well for lack of a better description odd mind set to either the religion or culture. But now after talking with you I am thinking that reasoning is flawed.

So I was wondering if in your opinion Formless is it some quirk of Islam that makes what seems like something that would be ultimately counter productive like 9/11 appeal to the extremists? Or is it something outside of religion and they are just choosing to use Islam as a cover? Because honestly when I look at a Bin Laden or the fellow who leads al Qaeda now (I will not butcher his name in my poor attempt at spelling) I see intelligent men. They could not have done what they have if they were not smart, but how on earth can someone think acts of terrorism and violence is ultimately going to champion their cause in a good light? It just defies rational thought to me and for years I have unfairly so attributed it to Islam. I feel like just calling them insane is dumbing down the whole discussion, but I just look at this and wonder why when it ultimately harms their cause.

Offline ladia2287

Re: Islam , A variety of discussions from a non extreme perspective.
« Reply #126 on: October 30, 2013, 01:10:38 AM »
Being one of those blue eyed Midwestern guys, what you touched on here Formless is what baffles me the most. And I will admit until having this discussion with you I was well on the way to having a nasty hatred of all things Islam despite my best efforts to reason. As you touched on it is kind of to be expected after something like 9/11 though that does not justify it.

Having said all of that the heart of my point is that I look at things like 9/11 and wonder how to hell Bin Laden thought that would turn out well? How do these extremists feel that by acts of murder the world will see them as a prophet or what have you? Or going beyond 9/11 other acts of great violence by other extremists and then they seem shocked that it does not work out. For a long time I subscribed such a well for lack of a better description odd mind set to either the religion or culture. But now after talking with you I am thinking that reasoning is flawed.

So I was wondering if in your opinion Formless is it some quirk of Islam that makes what seems like something that would be ultimately counter productive like 9/11 appeal to the extremists? Or is it something outside of religion and they are just choosing to use Islam as a cover? Because honestly when I look at a Bin Laden or the fellow who leads al Qaeda now (I will not butcher his name in my poor attempt at spelling) I see intelligent men. They could not have done what they have if they were not smart, but how on earth can someone think acts of terrorism and violence is ultimately going to champion their cause in a good light? It just defies rational thought to me and for years I have unfairly so attributed it to Islam. I feel like just calling them insane is dumbing down the whole discussion, but I just look at this and wonder why when it ultimately harms their cause.

I think you hit the nail on the head with one sentence. Osama bin Laden and his contemporary counterpart are well educated and intelligent. They are also very charismatic. An Arab man of poor circumstance is probably only sufficiently educated to be able to recite the Qu'ran. Their understanding, even of their own faith, is limited to what they are told. Someone who is charismatic as Osama bin Laden was, would have no difficulty at all twisting the minds of such men into believing that he is directing them to do God's will. Like Christians, Muslims believe that if they die in the service of God and the defense of Islam, then they will receive a special reward in Paradise.

Osama bin Laden achieved exactly what he set out to do. He taught men that it was God's will that they should kill thousands of innocent people as they posed a threat to Islam. He convinced them that there actions were not murder, but Jihad, and that by giving their lives to ensure the deaths of 'infidels', God would reward them.

And he also forced the world to sit up and take notice, and begin to regard Islam as a force to be reckoned with.

Offline Retribution

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Re: Islam , A variety of discussions from a non extreme perspective.
« Reply #127 on: October 30, 2013, 08:09:32 AM »
True....but it did not turn out well. Bin Laden is dead, his organization has been gutted, and there is a heightened awareness of possible areas of attack which makes further such attacks more difficult to carry out. Say what one will about the current wars, but radical groups have been bleed heavy both literally and figuratively. -And- it has all cast many valid regional causes like the Palestinian issue into a bad political light that may set them back years. I fail to see how any of this is a good thing.

Having said that I accept poverty and the like are very valid issues. When one is hungry and living in squalor they will grasp at anything that makes life better. More aid to the region is not the answer as there is so much blatant corruption that the help never reaches those in need. Heck, as I have said before my best friend was very high ranked in the Marine Corps before retiring and did 11 tours. He notes how horrid the living conditions are for many people in the Middle East so yes of course they can be swayed by these types.

But I still fail to see how the intelligent leaders ever had a thought this would turn out well for them. I just do not get it and that is something I try over and over again to wrap my mind around.

Offline Oniya

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Re: Islam , A variety of discussions from a non extreme perspective.
« Reply #128 on: October 30, 2013, 08:16:54 AM »
One can be intelligent and still be a fanatic.  And I don't think that bin Laden was a fanatical Muslim, so much as being fanatically against the US and happening to be a Muslim.  By being so fanatical and intelligent, it would have been relatively simple for him to seek out and cobble together appropriate verses in the Koran to make his viewpoint seem justified, much like fanatics who happen to be Christian cobble together verses from the Bible to make their viewpoints seem justified (completely ignoring other large sections of text at the same time.)

Offline Retribution

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Re: Islam , A variety of discussions from a non extreme perspective.
« Reply #129 on: October 30, 2013, 08:36:49 AM »
One can be intelligent and still be a fanatic.  And I don't think that bin Laden was a fanatical Muslim, so much as being fanatically against the US and happening to be a Muslim.  By being so fanatical and intelligent, it would have been relatively simple for him to seek out and cobble together appropriate verses in the Koran to make his viewpoint seem justified, much like fanatics who happen to be Christian cobble together verses from the Bible to make their viewpoints seem justified (completely ignoring other large sections of text at the same time.)

 :-) maybe he was just a very successful fanatic because of his intelligence who knows.

Offline FormlessTopic starter

Re: Islam , A variety of discussions from a non extreme perspective.
« Reply #130 on: October 30, 2013, 09:56:37 AM »
Retribution
Being one of those blue eyed Midwestern guys, what you touched on here Formless is what baffles me the most. And I will admit until having this discussion with you I was well on the way to having a nasty hatred of all things Islam despite my best efforts to reason. As you touched on it is kind of to be expected after something like 9/11 though that does not justify it.

Having said all of that the heart of my point is that I look at things like 9/11 and wonder how to hell Bin Laden thought that would turn out well? How do these extremists feel that by acts of murder the world will see them as a prophet or what have you? Or going beyond 9/11 other acts of great violence by other extremists and then they seem shocked that it does not work out. For a long time I subscribed such a well for lack of a better description odd mind set to either the religion or culture. But now after talking with you I am thinking that reasoning is flawed.

So I was wondering if in your opinion Formless is it some quirk of Islam that makes what seems like something that would be ultimately counter productive like 9/11 appeal to the extremists? Or is it something outside of religion and they are just choosing to use Islam as a cover? Because honestly when I look at a Bin Laden or the fellow who leads al Qaeda now (I will not butcher his name in my poor attempt at spelling) I see intelligent men. They could not have done what they have if they were not smart, but how on earth can someone think acts of terrorism and violence is ultimately going to champion their cause in a good light? It just defies rational thought to me and for years I have unfairly so attributed it to Islam. I feel like just calling them insane is dumbing down the whole discussion, but I just look at this and wonder why when it ultimately harms their cause.

My opinion on the matter?  Maybe Bin Laden was intelligent in a military sense. Politically? Not so much.

I don't think anyone can really know what was he thinking when he did what he did ( Conspiracy theory aside , as I never even put any thought into these ). He says he's a Muslim , alright , but how does killing the innocent is an Islam virtue? If Bin Laden chose a Military target only with the 9/11 strike , he may have earned some more support from an extremist party. However , doing what he did by taking down a non military building filled with innocent people , he never even followed the religion he preaches about , let alone serves it.

And even after the 9/11 strike , he spent his whole life in hiding. Throwing threats and never even following them through. To me he looked like some misguided war monger who lost all cause and realized he was up against the world , and not a mere country or an adversary.

He could've been fooled. He could've thought that when they deliver the strike and said his speech after the incident that everyone will answer his ' call to arms'. But it all failed. Its not a war when you're hiding. Its not a war when you kill civilians and can't even shoot a single bullet at the opposing army.

He could've thought he can offer Islam , the respect he think its deserves. That Islam was being taunted and disrespected. But all he did was channel the world's entire hatred towards it. I mean how am I supposed to explain to someone who lost a dear family rememberi n the strike that I am a Muslim and I hold no ill will towards them , when someone hiding in a cave blatantly said that this is the way of Muslims.

Quite frankly , Bin Laden was an idiot in his ways. He can be thrown into a battlefield maybe , but to lead the people? Never. And I wouldn't even bother trying to understand him. He was hiding in his caves and houses , while we , the real Muslims suffered the consequences of what he did. We never asked for his war. We were satisfied with out peaceful relationships with the whole world. We were happy with the way things were.

Offline Retribution

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Re: Islam , A variety of discussions from a non extreme perspective.
« Reply #131 on: October 30, 2013, 10:22:05 AM »
Thank you Formless, I suppose the lesson in it all is no race, class, or religion has a monopoly on idiocy or brilliance. For your bin Laden's there are Westboro Baptist Church on the Christian side. For your conservatives there are your Tim McVeigh's and for your liberals there are your Ted Kaczynski's.

Offline Chris Brady

Re: Islam , A variety of discussions from a non extreme perspective.
« Reply #132 on: December 14, 2013, 11:52:31 AM »
So stepping away from the Terrorist slant that this discussion seems to have shifted into again, I have a question:

I once heard someone mention that the reason that women are discouraged from working in a Muslim country, is because she has no legal binding to actually spend that money on anyone else except herself, whether she's married or not.  But men, if they are married, are obligated (not sure if legally or not) to spend money on everyone in their immediate family (Wife, and children.)  So if women do work, then it's assumed or perceived that she is taking a job away from a man who may need it, not just for himself but whatever family he may have.

Is this correct?

(I am seeing a parallel with what happens in the West with a divorce, more often than not, a man has to pay alimony to his ex-Wife, but the woman rarely, if ever, has to do so for the ex-Husband.  Even if he is the one with the rights to any children.)

Offline Kythia

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Re: Islam , A variety of discussions from a non extreme perspective.
« Reply #133 on: December 14, 2013, 12:58:45 PM »
I once heard someone mention that the reason that women are discouraged from working in a Muslim country,...

Pakistan had a famous female Prime Minister.  Twice.  I'm not sure what you mean by "Muslim Country"

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Re: Islam , A variety of discussions from a non extreme perspective.
« Reply #134 on: December 14, 2013, 01:31:49 PM »
Quote
So I was wondering if in your opinion Formless is it some quirk of Islam that makes what seems like something that would be ultimately counter productive like 9/11 appeal to the extremists? Or is it something outside of religion and they are just choosing to use Islam as a cover? Because honestly when I look at a Bin Laden or the fellow who leads al Qaeda now (I will not butcher his name in my poor attempt at spelling) I see intelligent men. They could not have done what they have if they were not smart, but how on earth can someone think acts of terrorism and violence is ultimately going to champion their cause in a good light? It just defies rational thought to me and for years I have unfairly so attributed it to Islam. I feel like just calling them insane is dumbing down the whole discussion, but I just look at this and wonder why when it ultimately harms their cause.

In my opinion, acts of terrorism are a lashing out, a symptom of a disaffected segment of a population.  It is irrational, regardless of the intelligence of the individual.  Terrorism is a group phenomenon--how many of these people would kill themselves without the cult mentality and peer pressure that goes with it all?


To return myself to the topic, I see Islam as never having had the equivalent of a Martin Luther, to force an evolution of the religion.  It might have had one, had it's evolution not been interrupted by the appearance of the Golden Horde of Mongols, who destroyed the center of Islamic culture and knowledge in Baghdad, and killed the Caliph.  Before the destruction, Islam was much more liberal and advanced intellectually than Christianity at the same time--accepting of populations of other faiths in their cities, studying astronomy and math, and so on.  The harsh shock of the Mongol destruction put them in a much more conservative mode, as usually happens to cultures that go through such events.  Not long after, the Crusades began, putting further brakes on cultural advancement, which has continued to this day.  The lack of a significant middle and left in Islamic societies to counterbalance the power of the right shows just how important it is for the health of a society to include the entire spectrum of ethical and political views.

Offline FormlessTopic starter

Re: Islam , A variety of discussions from a non extreme perspective.
« Reply #135 on: December 14, 2013, 01:37:18 PM »
Chris Brady
So stepping away from the Terrorist slant that this discussion seems to have shifted into again, I have a question:

I once heard someone mention that the reason that women are discouraged from working in a Muslim country, is because she has no legal binding to actually spend that money on anyone else except herself, whether she's married or not.  But men, if they are married, are obligated (not sure if legally or not) to spend money on everyone in their immediate family (Wife, and children.)  So if women do work, then it's assumed or perceived that she is taking a job away from a man who may need it, not just for himself but whatever family he may have.

Is this correct?

(I am seeing a parallel with what happens in the West with a divorce, more often than not, a man has to pay alimony to his ex-Wife, but the woman rarely, if ever, has to do so for the ex-Husband.  Even if he is the one with the rights to any children.)

I'll be speaking of my country , Because as Kythia have stated , Pakistan had and still have women in powerful positions ( If memory serves me well ).

However , to be make it clear , Islam never stated that women should not work. There was never a verse in Qur'an , nor any Hadith that spoke of a sin on women's behalf if they work.

But preventing women from working stems from the lack of segregation within the work environment. Traditions of a certain country are the main reason why women would be shunned from working. In my country , until the year 2001 , it was a disgrace for women to work in a hospital. In 2005 , it was frowned upon. Now? It is heavily encouraged. The reason behind the rapid flow of change would take so many posts to explain it , but the main thing would be that traditions are usually the reason behind it , not a fear of a woman taking over a male's role as the family's caretaker. ( Assuming I understood your point there.) Heck there's some families here that depends on a woman's salary to survive since the husband can be an illiterate slob. I hope that clarifies it.

In regards to divorce. It all comes down to the judge. A man does not always have to pay alimony. But divorce is always a bitter battle here , or anywhere else in the world. )


Offline Chris Brady

Re: Islam , A variety of discussions from a non extreme perspective.
« Reply #136 on: December 14, 2013, 02:00:02 PM »
not a fear of a woman taking over a male's role as the family's caretaker. ( Assuming I understood your point there.)

No, that's not how I understood the statement.  The statement is that if a married woman works, she never has to spend any of her earnings on her family.  She could let her kids starve because there's no obligation for her to care for her family.  Yes, I know for a lot of you that's incomprehensible, BUT from what was stated, this is exactly what is ALLOWED.  But a married man can not do this.  If he withholds any of his own money, he could be held accountable for harming his family, including his working wife.

And according to the statement, the reason why it's discouraged for women to work, is that the quality of job left for the man could make his FAMILY suffer if he can't make the same amount of money.  Let me see if I clarify this.

If a woman has a job that pays 24K (equivalent), she can keep it all for herself, married or not.  But that means that's one less 24K job for a man to have so he can feed his family.  He might be stuck with a job that pays a little more than half, and if he has a family, then he's going to need a second job, (which again, removes another job from the pool) to actually support said family.

This, IF I REMEMBER THE STATEMENT CORRECTLY, is what I got from it.  Is that accurate or not?

(Ignore the divorce statement, it's an observation of parallels.)

Offline FormlessTopic starter

Re: Islam , A variety of discussions from a non extreme perspective.
« Reply #137 on: December 14, 2013, 02:33:11 PM »
Do you mind posting anything related to this statement , Chris? There's nothing official or traditional that I know of , which direct to such a thing.

Offline ladia2287

Re: Islam , A variety of discussions from a non extreme perspective.
« Reply #138 on: December 14, 2013, 04:15:07 PM »
The question of women being allowed to work or not is more due to political or social convention rather than religion. Is Saudi Arabia, for instance, the male and female population, to my understanding, always been heavily segregated. It was, and for many Saudi Arabs still is, considered improper for a woman to associate with men who are not their father, brother, brother-in-law, husband, son or son-in-law. In fact, I believe until recently it was illegal for a woman to be seen in public with a man who did not fit this criteria and the mutawwa had the power to arrest men and women who were together in public, but were not related in this way. This really is more about what is considered socially appropriate than about a religious requirement, and I believe it is this social convention, not the requirements of Islam, that has resulted in women being banned from schools and/or workplaces in many predominantly Muslim countries.

Back to the question of Islam, Formless, I admit I am a very curious creature and I have heard mention of a punishment referred to as the 'Woman's Room'. Can you tell me if this is sanctioned in the Qu'ran, what it is and what it is used for?

Offline FormlessTopic starter

Re: Islam , A variety of discussions from a non extreme perspective.
« Reply #139 on: December 14, 2013, 05:44:50 PM »
Back to the question of Islam, Formless, I admit I am a very curious creature and I have heard mention of a punishment referred to as the 'Woman's Room'. Can you tell me if this is sanctioned in the Qu'ran, what it is and what it is used for?

I honestly never heard of such a thing. Do you know which Verse relates to it?

Also , could it be a cultural thing? Perhaps related to a different Islamic community?

Offline Lux12

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Re: Islam , A variety of discussions from a non extreme perspective.
« Reply #140 on: December 14, 2013, 06:08:04 PM »
I haven't read the whole thread, but I'm surprised that people haven't said much if anything about Sufi and other possibly esoteric forms of Islam.

Offline ladia2287

Re: Islam , A variety of discussions from a non extreme perspective.
« Reply #141 on: December 14, 2013, 06:15:19 PM »
Unfortunately I do not know where it is mentioned, but I know a story of a woman who was subjected to it, and it was mentioned that a relative pointed out that the Prophet himself ordered it. I do not know if this is true and I know many who have, sadly, chosen to twist their faith to suit their own ends, but from what I understand it sounded like the woman in question was basically confined to a small room in her home and forbidden to have any contact with the outside world. Even her windows were boarded up, and she was confined to this small, dark space for seven days. They would not tell me why she was subjected to this, only that she had committed a very serious transgression and this punishment was, apparently, recommended by the Prophet Muhammed.

It is more to satisfy my own morbid curiosity. Given what I know of Islam this seems a rather extreme punishment and I can't help but wonder if is really is ordered in the Qu'ran, or if it is simply another sad case of the Prophet's words being twisted.

I haven't read the whole thread, but I'm surprised that people haven't said much if anything about Sufi and other possibly esoteric forms of Islam.

Sufi is little-known. The easiest branches to remember are the Sunni and Shi'ite, aka Shi'a, and I suppose most non-Muslims assume that all Muslims fall into one of these two categories

Offline FormlessTopic starter

Re: Islam , A variety of discussions from a non extreme perspective.
« Reply #142 on: December 14, 2013, 06:41:41 PM »
Ladia2287
Unfortunately I do not know where it is mentioned, but I know a story of a woman who was subjected to it, and it was mentioned that a relative pointed out that the Prophet himself ordered it. I do not know if this is true and I know many who have, sadly, chosen to twist their faith to suit their own ends, but from what I understand it sounded like the woman in question was basically confined to a small room in her home and forbidden to have any contact with the outside world. Even her windows were boarded up, and she was confined to this small, dark space for seven days. They would not tell me why she was subjected to this, only that she had committed a very serious transgression and this punishment was, apparently, recommended by the Prophet Muhammed.

It is more to satisfy my own morbid curiosity. Given what I know of Islam this seems a rather extreme punishment and I can't help but wonder if is really is ordered in the Qu'ran, or if it is simply another sad case of the Prophet's words being twisted.

There's a weak Hadith about a punishment for a woman if she was suspected to ' bed ' another man. And while it is weak , those who adhere it , believe that locking a woman in her house relieves her of 'suspicion.' However the part about the windows being boarded sounds too extreme of what I heard. That is the best i can find about it. It sounded strange to me because it isn't practiced here. Perhaps because it was delivered under a weak string of foretellers down the path of history.

I haven't read the whole thread, but I'm surprised that people haven't said much if anything about Sufi and other possibly esoteric forms of Islam.

There has been a mention of it. I suggest you read the second page , even when there was little to say about it.

Offline Chris Brady

Re: Islam , A variety of discussions from a non extreme perspective.
« Reply #143 on: December 14, 2013, 07:03:03 PM »
Do you mind posting anything related to this statement , Chris? There's nothing official or traditional that I know of , which direct to such a thing.
That's all I needed to know, thank you.

Offline Lux12

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Re: Islam , A variety of discussions from a non extreme perspective.
« Reply #144 on: December 14, 2013, 07:09:33 PM »
Ladia2287

There's a weak Hadith about a punishment for a woman if she was suspected to ' bed ' another man. And while it is weak , those who adhere it , believe that locking a woman in her house relieves her of 'suspicion.' However the part about the windows being boarded sounds too extreme of what I heard. That is the best i can find about it. It sounded strange to me because it isn't practiced here. Perhaps because it was delivered under a weak string of foretellers down the path of history.

There has been a mention of it. I suggest you read the second page , even when there was little to say about it.
Thank you for pointing that out. I didn't know Sufism was quite that intense. I'm more interested about the supposed esoteric aspects of it myself. I've heard a number of things, but have found far less than I would like.

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Re: Islam , A variety of discussions from a non extreme perspective.
« Reply #145 on: January 07, 2014, 04:27:21 PM »
I have to say, my eyes have been opened. I feel rather ignorant in the fact that I never took the time to actually read up on the subject and I only listened to what I heard on the news, which in my area is largely based on opinion rather than fact.

Thank you for this.

Offline FormlessTopic starter

Re: Islam , A variety of discussions from a non extreme perspective.
« Reply #146 on: January 11, 2014, 08:45:45 AM »
You're very welcome Demoness.

And please , whenever you have an inquiry , do not hesitate to ask. :-)

Offline Kythia

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Re: Islam , A variety of discussions from a non extreme perspective.
« Reply #147 on: May 11, 2014, 01:25:17 PM »
1) Gasp in awe at my thread necromancy

2) I'm interested in what you think of this  Not the bumf about atheism at the beginning, the later part about the interpretation of the hadith and its applicability to the present day.

Offline Derwaysh

Re: Islam , A variety of discussions from a non extreme perspective.
« Reply #148 on: May 11, 2014, 08:51:17 PM »
I was wondering if youíre okay with those other than Formless offering their $0.02? If not please feel free to disregard this. : )

Having been raised in an ultra-conservative Sunni family that conformed to Hannfi principles to question hadith was a no-no. However having acquired a more independent juxtaposition in this matter later on I have come to wonder exactly how authentic hadith and its practical implications really are. Whether these are Muhammadís quotes or perhaps we've been led to believe how they are... courtesy of the first two caliphates.

Though from what I recall should there be a certain contrariety betwixt the hadith and whatís in the Quran, the latter usually trumps the former. Should further clarification be needed the Sunnah (Muhammadís mannerisms, actions, decisions, etc.) is usually referred to, but even in that case whatís supposed to be done is follow the written scripture.

Of course in this case itís easy to see Muhammad did not execute the person i.e. Bedouin who walked away. If the writerís argument about adhering to the collective rather than the faith is to taken into perspective, it still does not explain why the Al Saud family would apply all atheists under the terrorist label. Perhaps the Wahabi school of thought has a lot to with that? Thatís the only explanation that comes to mind. That and the hadith on how should someone change their religion they should be killed. 

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Re: Islam , A variety of discussions from a non extreme perspective.
« Reply #149 on: May 11, 2014, 09:04:00 PM »
Yeah, (half) my family are Hanafi Sunni but they're only nominally so, my daadi is the only one who you'd really call a believer. 

The chain of logic within the article seemed to make sense to me - the argument that the hadith were clarifications of the Quran leading to apostasy not being punishable by death - and its always the way I've kinda vaguely viewed them.  Honestly though I've never put that much thought there, I'm not Muslim myself.  I was kinda interested to hear Formless' Wahabi interpretation (or to hear Formless give the Wahabi interpretation to phrase it a little better).  Not of course that I'm not okay with your cents. 

I know almost impressively little about Wahabism, the Al Sauds and their intersection.