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Author Topic: A Clarification about "Human Rights"  (Read 1149 times)

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Offline Kythia

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Re: A Clarification about "Human Rights"
« Reply #25 on: August 30, 2013, 08:30:41 AM »
Yes

Offline mia h

Re: A Clarification about "Human Rights"
« Reply #26 on: September 03, 2013, 04:31:48 PM »
No.  There is no "clash".  Russia has passed an illegal law, which countries do all the time.  There's been discussions in this forum about the US supreme court overriding various US legislation, its happened here (the UK) before and so on.  That doesn't make a clash between one set of rights and another, which is what was being asked.  It makes it an illegal law.

Just curious what you mean by illegal laws.
Russia like the US is constitutional government, there is a written Constitution that's almost impossible to change and both governments can only create laws within that framework and if they don't the respective supreme courts can abolish those laws.
The UK Parliament by it's very nature cannot pass illegal laws, they are the supreme legal authority so any laws they pass are by definition legal.
I know things start to get a little bit muddy when you start including things like the ECHR and the Geneva Conventions but even then if sovereign states pass laws that are compatible with international agreements then they are breaching treaties not breaking laws.

Offline Kythia

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Re: A Clarification about "Human Rights"
« Reply #27 on: September 03, 2013, 05:44:37 PM »
Just curious what you mean by illegal laws.
Russia like the US is constitutional government, there is a written Constitution that's almost impossible to change and both governments can only create laws within that framework and if they don't the respective supreme courts can abolish those laws.
The UK Parliament by it's very nature cannot pass illegal laws, they are the supreme legal authority so any laws they pass are by definition legal.
I know things start to get a little bit muddy when you start including things like the ECHR and the Geneva Conventions but even then if sovereign states pass laws that are compatible with international agreements then they are breaching treaties not breaking laws.

Bad word choice.  I meant a law in conflict with its international treaty obligations. 

The UK Parliament can pass illegal laws, BTW.  European legislation trumps UK legislation on some issues, if we pass a law in conflict with EU legislation then it could be struck down (look at this mess with Abu Qatada or, a bit further back, with prisoners having the right to vote)

Offline mia h

Re: A Clarification about "Human Rights"
« Reply #28 on: September 04, 2013, 03:19:51 AM »
Bad word choice.  I meant a law in conflict with its international treaty obligations. 

The UK Parliament can pass illegal laws, BTW.  European legislation trumps UK legislation on some issues, if we pass a law in conflict with EU legislation then it could be struck down (look at this mess with Abu Qatada or, a bit further back, with prisoners having the right to vote)

The Abu Qatada fiasco didn't involve passing any legislation, it was the UK Supreme court and ECtHR saying the Government had to comply with existing UK legislation.
And the prisoner voting, again nothing has change. The case was brought to the ECtHR, wjo agreed with the prisoners. It went back to Parliment who voted on it and they basically told the ECtHR where to go. The whole situation is currently in limbo

Offline Kythia

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Re: A Clarification about "Human Rights"
« Reply #29 on: September 04, 2013, 04:53:05 AM »
Not sure of the distinction you're drawing, seems kinda like we agree. Supreme Court found deportation order was illegal and section 10d it. Hence illegal action by parliament, parliamentary sovereignty notwithstanding. Seems we're discussing semantics here, which is almost always not worth it.

Take care.

Edit: memory is sucky. Don't mean section ten do I. Either way, you get my point.
« Last Edit: September 04, 2013, 04:57:14 AM by Kythia »

Offline mia h

Re: A Clarification about "Human Rights"
« Reply #30 on: September 05, 2013, 04:10:54 AM »
You say semantics, I'd say precision (typos not withstanding) ;D

With specific fields certain terms have specific meanings, if you use the term in the correct way then what you say has credibility. Use the same term incorrectly and you can be instantly dismissed as being irrelevant.
Like there is a clear difference between illegal and unlawful but most people don't recognize that, which is why the Federation Against Copyright Theft gets to call itself that instead of the more accurate Federation Against Copyright Infringement.
So the more people that use the correct terms in the correct way the better, particularly when it's a subject connected to politics or the law where it's all nuance and fine distinctions.

Offline Kythia

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Re: A Clarification about "Human Rights"
« Reply #31 on: September 06, 2013, 04:23:35 AM »
Honestly I disagree to the extent I'm struggling to phrase my objection. With numbers of people who vote low and dropping and a general disengagement from politics in all works of life then it seems to me that whatever minuscule benefit there is to learning definitions is massively outweighed by the fact that it puts a barrier before people discussing important issues.

We'll have to agree to disagree here.