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Author Topic: Moving the Winter Olympics...  (Read 14095 times)

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Offline Rogue

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Re: Moving the Winter Olympics...
« Reply #525 on: September 21, 2013, 03:49:25 PM »
What's wrong with this though?  Maybe this will happen in Russia in 20 years, and that's fantastic - it is on their natural timeline.  We might be a little bit ahead of the Russians in being an equal society, but that's for the Russians and their government to sort out, right?

Yes. I just don't want anyone to have to go to a potentially dangerous part of the world for a sporting event. And if it wasn't the sporting event I prolly wouldn't have even be arguing still. Simply because my opinion is "Yes they have the right to this law. I don't like it. But they have the right to it." As I've said numerous times. But this is THE sporting event! People give up their childhood for this dream. And I don't like to see it tainted.

Offline Dashenka

Re: Moving the Winter Olympics...
« Reply #526 on: September 21, 2013, 03:50:58 PM »
You are both right. Russia's trying to protect things that cannot be protected and sooner or later they will realize that.

With the rise of the internet, you cannot block information coming into the country and although the media is biased, most young people in Russia (at least the ones that have more than 2 braincells) are actually quite informed on what's happening around the world, that's why among the group of people who is against Putin, the majority are young people.


The Olympic athletes are and will be fine. They can go there safely. I'm Russian... trust me.  ::)

Offline Cyrano Johnson

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Re: Moving the Winter Olympics...
« Reply #527 on: September 21, 2013, 03:55:47 PM »
We might be a little bit ahead of the Russians in being an equal society, but that's for the Russians and their government to sort out, right?

Nobody can force a society to evolve as a whole. Most certainly, however, people from one group of countries can show solidarity with those being oppressed in other places of the world. Apartheid would still be alive if this had not happened in South Africa. Segregation would still be alive in the States but for international pressure on (and embarrassment of) America in the Sixties. The argument that we should all just sit back and leave Russia alone does not in fact hold water, it is fallacious and oversimplistic no matter how many times it's repeated.

Offline Rogue

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Re: Moving the Winter Olympics...
« Reply #528 on: September 21, 2013, 03:58:01 PM »
I'm Russian... trust me.  ::)

Yeah... no. *laughs*

You are both right. Russia's trying to protect things that cannot be protected and sooner or later they will realize that.

With the rise of the internet, you cannot block information coming into the country and although the media is biased, most young people in Russia (at least the ones that have more than 2 braincells) are actually quite informed on what's happening around the world, that's why among the group of people who is against Putin, the majority are young people.


The Olympic athletes are and will be fine. They can go there safely. I'm Russian... trust me.  ::)

And I know, it's just frustrating because that portion is so small...

Nobody can force a society to evolve as a whole. Most certainly people from other countries can show solidarity with those being oppressed in other places of the world. Apartheid would still be alive if this had not happened in South Africa. Segregation would still be alive in the States but for international pressure on (and embarrassment of) America in the Sixties. The argument that we should all just sit back and leave Russia alone does not in fact hold water, it is fallacious and oversimplistic no matter how many times it's repeated.

This is why I'm all for people protesting, even if it seems to have no affect. Because people hear the voices and learn! *nods*

Offline Valthazar

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Re: Moving the Winter Olympics...
« Reply #529 on: September 21, 2013, 03:58:17 PM »
Yes. I just don't want anyone to have to go to a potentially dangerous part of the world for a sporting event. And if it wasn't the sporting event I prolly wouldn't have even be arguing still. Simply because my opinion is "Yes they have the right to this law. I don't like it. But they have the right to it." As I've said numerous times. But this is THE sporting event! People give up their childhood for this dream. And I don't like to see it tainted.

So it seems then that your concern is focused more on the treatment of visitors to the country during the Olympics.  How is it any different than visiting any other socially conservative country?  Just follow their customs, and don't seek to provoke and test one's limits.  I can assure you though, that it is likely someone is going to "willfully" do something, just to cause an international stir.

Offline Rogue

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Re: Moving the Winter Olympics...
« Reply #530 on: September 21, 2013, 04:05:46 PM »
So it seems then that your concern is focused more on the treatment of visitors to the country during the Olympics.  How is it any different than visiting any other socially conservative country?  Just follow their customs, and don't seek to provoke and test one's limits.  I can assure you though, that it is likely someone is going to "willfully" do something, just to cause an international stir.

I'm more worried about the ones not provoking anything. Just simple bits of affection (as I've tried to say) not making out in public. Because the law says "anything that makes homosexuality look positive." So I worry about what is considered propaganda since I don't think we'll hear a lot about the arrests and the cases for a while.

I'd be equally if not more concerned if the summer olympics were being held in any socially conservative country... >.>

Offline Valthazar

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Re: Moving the Winter Olympics...
« Reply #531 on: September 21, 2013, 04:10:14 PM »
I'm more worried about the ones not provoking anything. Just simple bits of affection (as I've tried to say) not making out in public. Because the law says "anything that makes homosexuality look positive." So I worry about what is considered propaganda since I don't think we'll hear a lot about the arrests and the cases for a while.

I'd be equally if not more concerned if the summer olympics were being held in any socially conservative country... >.>

Isn't that just the reality of life?

For example, it's very possible that the Olympics could be held in India sometime.  But it's very dangerous for a woman to walk around by herself there - even though we all know, that women deserve the same independence as men.  In the United States, because we value this, we make sure things are safe for anyone by themselves in public (man or woman).  But if a female tourist in India insists on walking by herself, with complete disregard for the way life is over there, she really could put herself in danger unfortunately.

The same is true for athletes at the Olympics.  Is it morally correct for them to show affection in public?  Absolutely.  Is it wise?  Probably not.

Offline Rogue

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Re: Moving the Winter Olympics...
« Reply #532 on: September 21, 2013, 04:13:44 PM »
Isn't that just the reality of life?

For example, it's very possible that the Olympics could be held in India sometime.  But it's very dangerous for a woman to walk around by herself there - even though we all know, that women deserve the same independence as men.  In the United States, because we value this, we make sure things are safe for anyone by themselves in public (man or woman).  But if a female tourist in India insists on walking by herself, with complete disregard for the way life is over there, she really could put herself in danger unfortunately.

The same is true for athletes at the Olympics.  Is it morally correct for them to show affection in public?  Absolutely.  Is it wise?  Probably not.

Actually, the place the olympics are held is chosen by a committee. And I'm sure they take into account the safety of all of the participants before choosing a spot. 6 years in advance. Now, less than 2 years before the event, the situation has changed. That's my issue.

Offline Valthazar

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Re: Moving the Winter Olympics...
« Reply #533 on: September 21, 2013, 04:19:44 PM »
Actually, the place the olympics are held is chosen by a committee. And I'm sure they take into account the safety of all of the participants before choosing a spot. 6 years in advance. Now, less than 2 years before the event, the situation has changed. That's my issue.

I don't know if you understood my point.  My point was that so long as people follow the laws of the land, the athletes won't have any issues.

Offline Dashenka

Re: Moving the Winter Olympics...
« Reply #534 on: September 21, 2013, 04:24:46 PM »
Russia is where America was a decade (or two) ago. Don't forget that the USA only excists for what... 600 years? You've always been fairly open and democratic since you are such a young country. Russia is a lot older. With that, Russia has never been very free. It's only been free for 22 years orso so the two countries are COMPLETELY different. Many of the present day Russians have been born in the USSR (me as well). And although I was young when Gorbatchov plunged Russia into chaos and was raised in a free Russia, most of my family wasn't. They were raised in the after math of WWII or in it and then the Cold War.

These moral values don't change overnight just because some people half way across the planet are trying to shove their democracy down the whole world. Many people (my grandparents included) blame America for the collapse of the Soviet Union.

Just because America is an advanced country (at least that's how it's described), doesn't mean Russia is. That doesn't justify the violence against homosexuals but the moral values in Russia are so completely different than in any other country that you cannot understand that if you haven't felt that. Russians are free, but they have no clue on how to be free.

Give it a year or ten orso and Russia will have caught up with the rest of the world, until then, don't judge the Russian people for things you have no clue about.

As for socially conservative, compared to some EU countries (mostly the Nordic countries) the US (and thus Canada as well) is some hopelessly outdated backwater town and I know there that puts Russia but I never claimed Russia wasn't conservative.


Actually, the place the olympics are held is chosen by a committee. And I'm sure they take into account the safety of all of the participants before choosing a spot. 6 years in advance. Now, less than 2 years before the event, the situation has changed. That's my issue.

They didn't, They saw money. FIFA decided to hold the World Cup Football in summer in Qatar. Now either they're all idiots or they got bribed. I know where my money is on. The fact the WINTER Olympics are held in a SUMMER resort town is proof to me that the IOC never even considered safety or location, only the size of the bribes.

Offline meikle

Re: Moving the Winter Olympics...
« Reply #535 on: September 21, 2013, 10:28:50 PM »
Quote
Don't forget that the USA only excists for what... 600 years?

237.  We've always been fairly open and democratic because we founded our country on those principles, and it took a revolution to make it happen.  American freedom has not come naturally; a lot of blood was spilled to get us where we are today.

Quote
Russians are free, but they have no clue on how to be free.
Much like the Americans used their early freedom to deny freedom to other Americans.  Again: we didn't get past that by waiting it out.
« Last Edit: September 21, 2013, 10:35:04 PM by meikle »

Offline Rogue

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Re: Moving the Winter Olympics...
« Reply #536 on: September 22, 2013, 12:09:13 AM »
I don't know if you understood my point.  My point was that so long as people follow the laws of the land, the athletes won't have any issues.

And my point is that if a person can get arrested for being who they are, I don't want athletes to have to go there. Whether it's Russia with this silly law, or Turkey with it's long standing traditions. Yes, if you follow the laws of the land, athletes won't have issues. My issue is how undefined the word propaganda is in this instance. :/ Dashenka's answer has been, if you're not sure don't do it. Well my thing is, I'm sure if I hold my girl friends hand and we stand really close and are obviously couplely (without making out or even kissing necessarily) that's not propaganda. Well the police officer disagrees and I'm now in jail. Well shit.


Russia is where America was a decade (or two) ago. Don't forget that the USA only excists for what... 600 years? You've always been fairly open and democratic since you are such a young country. Russia is a lot older. With that, Russia has never been very free. It's only been free for 22 years orso so the two countries are COMPLETELY different. Many of the present day Russians have been born in the USSR (me as well). And although I was young when Gorbatchov plunged Russia into chaos and was raised in a free Russia, most of my family wasn't. They were raised in the after math of WWII or in it and then the Cold War.

These moral values don't change overnight just because some people half way across the planet are trying to shove their democracy down the whole world. Many people (my grandparents included) blame America for the collapse of the Soviet Union.

Just because America is an advanced country (at least that's how it's described), doesn't mean Russia is. That doesn't justify the violence against homosexuals but the moral values in Russia are so completely different than in any other country that you cannot understand that if you haven't felt that. Russians are free, but they have no clue on how to be free.

Give it a year or ten orso and Russia will have caught up with the rest of the world, until then, don't judge the Russian people for things you have no clue about.

As for socially conservative, compared to some EU countries (mostly the Nordic countries) the US (and thus Canada as well) is some hopelessly outdated backwater town and I know there that puts Russia but I never claimed Russia wasn't conservative.

I'm not shoving democracy down anyone's throat. Democracy is a government choice. I'm okay with pretty much any form of government. As long as that government respects basic human rights. Including not censoring people. :) Moral values don't change over night. You're correct. The laws don't have to reflect that when the law is unnecessary beyond killing a specific person's right to teach children that it's not a bad thing to be yourself.

Also, before you reflect on Canada, Canada is more socially progressive than the US by a landslide. Just saying. And, believe me, I'm vocal about laws in my country too.

They didn't, They saw money. FIFA decided to hold the World Cup Football in summer in Qatar. Now either they're all idiots or they got bribed. I know where my money is on. The fact the WINTER Olympics are held in a SUMMER resort town is proof to me that the IOC never even considered safety or location, only the size of the bribes.

I don't know if this is true. And I believe that those are two different committees. And I believe that it's still in RUSSIA. I mean, Russia has won wars by pressing the "It's the coldest winter in history" button. I'm pretty sure Russia's Summer Resort is still colder than NYC in the middle of winter. Just saying.

Offline Valthazar

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Re: Moving the Winter Olympics...
« Reply #537 on: September 22, 2013, 12:28:08 AM »
And my point is that if a person can get arrested for being who they are, I don't want athletes to have to go there. Whether it's Russia with this silly law, or Turkey with it's long standing traditions. Yes, if you follow the laws of the land, athletes won't have issues. My issue is how undefined the word propaganda is in this instance. :/ Dashenka's answer has been, if you're not sure don't do it. Well my thing is, I'm sure if I hold my girl friends hand and we stand really close and are obviously couplely (without making out or even kissing necessarily) that's not propaganda. Well the police officer disagrees and I'm now in jail. Well shit.

At the end of the day, I would probably agree with Dashenka, that 'if you're not sure, don't do it.'  If you are not sure if holding hands will get you arrested, and you don't want to be arrested, don't hold hands in public.  It's a backwards law and there is a lot of propaganda circulating about homosexuality - but that's Russia today, and no matter what we discuss here, or what conclusions we reach, that's still the law there right now. 

That's why people say, it's only when you travel abroad, that you realize how fortunate we are to be American.

Offline Rogue

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Re: Moving the Winter Olympics...
« Reply #538 on: September 22, 2013, 12:41:06 AM »
At the end of the day, I would probably agree with Dashenka, that 'if you're not sure, don't do it.'  If you are not sure if holding hands will get you arrested, and you don't want to be arrested, don't hold hands in public.  It's a backwards law and there is a lot of propaganda circulating about homosexuality - but that's Russia today, and no matter what we discuss here, or what conclusions we reach, that's still the law there right now. 

That's why people say, it's only when you travel abroad, that you realize how fortunate we are to be American.

*laughs* It's almost funny because the only place I've been is Japan. And I'd prefer to live where I was because I was able to leave my car unlocked without a fear of it being stolen, they have a stronger money at the moment, generally better tech, and have really good laws regarding homosexuality. >.> On the other hand, all the weird stuff comes from Japan so there's that.

And I understand the whole when in Rome thing. Which is why I won't be going there. I just don't approve of it for the athletes who have to go there. It would be like me having to go there for a job. I'd have to go or lose my job. And if bringing my girl was an option, I wouldn't. Which would be heartbreaking. But whatever. I'd rather have her safe at home than with me in Russia. But with competitions, you want your support to be there for you. It's just how it goes.

Offline Dashenka

Re: Moving the Winter Olympics...
« Reply #539 on: September 22, 2013, 03:33:55 AM »
I don't know if this is true. And I believe that those are two different committees. And I believe that it's still in RUSSIA. I mean, Russia has won wars by pressing the "It's the coldest winter in history" button. I'm pretty sure Russia's Summer Resort is still colder than NYC in the middle of winter. Just saying.

That is where you are wrong. Sochi has a humid subtropical climate, New York has a coastal climate.

In January, the AVERAGE temperature in New York (According to Wikipedia) is 32F and in Sochi it's 43F. The average low in Sochi in January is 38F and in New York it's 26.

Sochi is a summer resort town and the only reason why it got picked is because of bribes. Trust me.


Also, before you reflect on Canada, Canada is more socially progressive than the US by a landslide. Just saying. And, believe me, I'm vocal about laws in my country too.


But still nowhere near as progressive as the Nordic countries in Europe. If you want socially progressive, go there. You'll be amazed, especially if you consider the USA to be socially progessive :)

Offline Rogue

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Re: Moving the Winter Olympics...
« Reply #540 on: September 23, 2013, 12:45:35 PM »
That is where you are wrong. Sochi has a humid subtropical climate, New York has a coastal climate.

In January, the AVERAGE temperature in New York (According to Wikipedia) is 32F and in Sochi it's 43F. The average low in Sochi in January is 38F and in New York it's 26.

Sochi is a summer resort town and the only reason why it got picked is because of bribes. Trust me.

But still nowhere near as progressive as the Nordic countries in Europe. If you want socially progressive, go there. You'll be amazed, especially if you consider the USA to be socially progessive :)

I never considered the US to be socially progressive. Just more progressive than Russia. I fight for my rights and the rights of others like me, regardless of country. Yes, Nordic countries are more socially progressive. I get it. Just saying, Canada is in a different category than the US which shows my view on how the US ranks in social progressiveness. On the other hand, we do have groups of largely progressive people, just not enough to do more than fight the other half of the country.