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Author Topic: Moving the Winter Olympics...  (Read 14025 times)

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Online Dashenka

Re: Moving the Winter Olympics...
« Reply #500 on: September 21, 2013, 02:19:14 PM »
You shouldn't.. but why would you deliberately offend people? Because for the old people on the street who take offense, it does matter.

Back to our grandparents again. I know mine are having difficulties with me and my girlfriend, as do her brothers. So rather than saying.. suck it up... I won't kiss her and make it harder on them while they are there.

It's not about what others think of me, it's showing some respect to their opinions and beliefs.

Offline Cyrano Johnson

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Re: Moving the Winter Olympics...
« Reply #501 on: September 21, 2013, 02:22:51 PM »
  We can't make it illegal to think that way, so long as they aren't hurting anyone.

There's the rub. You can however make it unconstitutional for them to say, write such opinions into law and back them up with force. (They can sneak around such constitutional prohibitions for a while -- as is happening right now with Russia's -- but likely not forever.)

Offline Rogue

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Re: Moving the Winter Olympics...
« Reply #502 on: September 21, 2013, 02:23:51 PM »
Then they should respect my belief that I have the right to hold hands with who ever I want. Because I'm not deliberately going out there to offend people. I'm going out there to live happily and be happy with my loved ones. And if my happiness offends someone? Oh well. Because if someone else's happiness offends me? Oh well. I'll live. Their happiness is greater than my displeasure.

Offline Valthazar

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Re: Moving the Winter Olympics...
« Reply #503 on: September 21, 2013, 02:25:29 PM »
Because, my actions aren't affecting them at all. So whether or not it hurts their sensibilities shouldn't matter. I get offended when people blast their bass in their cars so loud I can feel it. But you know what, I grit my teeth, complain to my girl, and then deal with it. :)

I kiss my girlfriend in public all the time. And I know it's offended people. But they should get over it, the same way I get over people playing their music way too loud.

You said that you would grit your teeth, complain and go along with it, with regard to the loud bass.  I think what Dashenka is saying, is that you should accept that people opposed to homosexuality in the US are grudgingly accepting equal legislation - having put up a losing fight, but they still don't have to openly embrace the ideology, and they may very well grit their teeth, complain, but ultimately go along with it.

That's perfectly fine, not everyone has to agree with the ideology.

Offline Rogue

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Re: Moving the Winter Olympics...
« Reply #504 on: September 21, 2013, 02:32:50 PM »
You said that you would grit your teeth, complain and go along with it, with regard to the loud bass.  I think what Dashenka is saying, is that you should accept that people opposed to homosexuality in the US are grudgingly accepting equal legislation - having put up a losing fight, but they still don't have to openly embrace the ideology, and they may very well grit their teeth, complain, but ultimately go along with it.

That's perfectly fine, not everyone has to agree with the ideology.

I'm not getting that from Dashenka though. I'm getting that I should stop acting on things that give me happiness because of others who aren't seriously affected beyond aesthetics are offended.

And I've never said anyone has to agree with my ideology though.

Offline Cyrano Johnson

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Re: Moving the Winter Olympics...
« Reply #505 on: September 21, 2013, 02:37:00 PM »
I think what Dashenka is saying, is that you should accept that people opposed to homosexuality in the US are grudgingly accepting equal legislation - having put up a losing fight, but they still don't have to openly embrace the ideology, and they may very well grit their teeth, complain, but ultimately go along with it.

Dashenka has spent the entire thread pushing this sort of argument as a means of defending straight people who promulgate laws to harm gay people and telling us that if gays don't like it, they really shouldn't "offend" straights by getting in the way of their fists and billy-clubs. If it was just about whether she holds off kissing in front of grandparents, presumably this conversation would have wound down a long time ago.

(Although note that the milieu of whether gays have been accepted as a standard sort of family member affects even minute interactions like this. It's getting less and less likely to find people in places where this tipping point has happened who would be petty enough to openly bitch about a gay couple kissing in public... and that's tied to its ceasing to be okay to wield force and court systems and indiscriminate phobia more generally against gay people. The macrocosm is always visible in the microcosm.)

Offline Cycle

Re: Moving the Winter Olympics...
« Reply #506 on: September 21, 2013, 02:40:50 PM »
I'm curious now.  What if you say murder is a sin and I, as a murderer, get offended?  Or I, as a genocidal maniac, get offended by your claim that being a genocidal maniac is wrong?  Or a paedophile or one of a whole host of other negatives.  Where do you see the line as being drawn?

I am going to interpret your question as not implying that murders, genocidal maniacs, pedophiles and homosexuals should all be lumped into the same category of a "negative."

That having been said, the logic still applies.  If A says something to B, that is judgmental of B, and B takes offense, A is responsible. 

B's status--murder, genocidal manic, or pedophile--does not absolve A of responsibility for starting the chain of events that offends B.  B's status may mean that A (or C or D or E...) doesn't care if B is offended.  But that isn't the same thing as absolving A's responsibility for offending B.

Offline Cyrano Johnson

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Re: Moving the Winter Olympics...
« Reply #507 on: September 21, 2013, 02:43:22 PM »
But that isn't the same thing as absolving A's responsibility for offending B.

It just means that B's having actually done something to deserve the opprobrium means nobody gives a shit if they're offended, rendering talk about "responsibility for offending them" effectively meaningless.

Online Dashenka

Re: Moving the Winter Olympics...
« Reply #508 on: September 21, 2013, 02:48:22 PM »
I'm not getting that from Dashenka though. I'm getting that I should stop acting on things that give me happiness because of others who aren't seriously affected beyond aesthetics are offended.

And I've never said anyone has to agree with my ideology though.

Would you be less happy if you'd wait to kiss your girlfriend in the house or car if you knew it would offend people around you? I'm not talking about a peck on the cheek but a real kiss.

There's been times that I felt like kissing my girlfriend when we were having dinner with her parents and brothers but I didn't. Because I know her brothers would be offended. So I'll postpone it until we are together.

Dashenka has spent the entire thread pushing this sort of argument as a means of defending straight people who promulgate laws to harm gay people and telling us that if gays don't like it, they really shouldn't "offend" straights by getting in the way of their fists and billy-clubs.

I haven't. But I don't feel like explaining what I did mean to you again since you only read what you want to read and don't make an effort in understand what I say.

Offline Rogue

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Re: Moving the Winter Olympics...
« Reply #509 on: September 21, 2013, 02:54:55 PM »
Would you be less happy if you'd wait to kiss your girlfriend in the house or car if you knew it would offend people around you? I'm not talking about a peck on the cheek but a real kiss.

There's been times that I felt like kissing my girlfriend when we were having dinner with her parents and brothers but I didn't. Because I know her brothers would be offended. So I'll postpone it until we are together.

I haven't. But I don't feel like explaining what I did mean to you again since you only read what you want to read and don't make an effort in understand what I say.

See, I'm talking holding hands and pecks on the cheek or lips and simple holding. You're talking making out. And in my family, it's equivalent on such things. Straight or Gay, no making out in front of other people! But pecks and other signs of affection are something else. Do you see my issue with this now?

Offline Kythia

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Re: Moving the Winter Olympics...
« Reply #510 on: September 21, 2013, 02:56:18 PM »
I am going to interpret your question as not implying that murders, genocidal maniacs, pedophiles and homosexuals should all be lumped into the same category of a "negative."

Errrm, no.  Honestly I don't actually see that reading, but you never see flaws in your own wording do you.  But yeah, wasn't intended to be read like that.

Quote
That having been said, the logic still applies.  If A says something to B, that is judgmental of B, and B takes offense, A is responsible. 

B's status--murder, genocidal manic, or pedophile--does not absolve A of responsibility for starting the chain of events that offends B.  B's status may mean that A (or C or D or E...) doesn't care if B is offended.  But that isn't the same thing as absolving A's responsibility for offending B.

Fair enough.  Thanks for answering.

Offline Cyrano Johnson

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Re: Moving the Winter Olympics...
« Reply #511 on: September 21, 2013, 02:57:51 PM »
you only read what you want to read and don't make an effort in understand

Pot. Meet kettle.

Online Dashenka

Re: Moving the Winter Olympics...
« Reply #512 on: September 21, 2013, 02:59:31 PM »
See, I'm talking holding hands and pecks on the cheek or lips and simple holding. You're talking making out. And in my family, it's equivalent on such things. Straight or Gay, no making out in front of other people! But pecks and other signs of affection are something else. Do you see my issue with this now?

Okay fair enough but the same question then. Would you make out with your girlfriend on the street?

Offline Rogue

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Re: Moving the Winter Olympics...
« Reply #513 on: September 21, 2013, 03:06:12 PM »
Okay fair enough but the same question then. Would you make out with your girlfriend on the street?

Honestly, no. I used to, when I was younger and my hormones weren't quite in check. I've since learned that you should refrain from such things. Mind you, this doesn't apply to clubs and the like. Those are different because I don't care in general if people make out there. :)

Online Oniya

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Re: Moving the Winter Olympics...
« Reply #514 on: September 21, 2013, 03:13:33 PM »
Okay fair enough but the same question then. Would you make out with your girlfriend on the street?

I wouldn't 'make out' with my husband on the street either.  If the law was an impartial 'Thou shalt not engage in tonsil-hockey in public places' - regardless of the participants - it would not be discriminatory.

Online Dashenka

Re: Moving the Winter Olympics...
« Reply #515 on: September 21, 2013, 03:17:37 PM »
Honestly, no. I used to, when I was younger and my hormones weren't quite in check. I've since learned that you should refrain from such things. Mind you, this doesn't apply to clubs and the like. Those are different because I don't care in general if people make out there. :)

No but in clubs there's generally only youth and they tend to be a bit more open than random people on the street. Besides I'm pretty sure that in a certain nightclub in London (and even in Moscow) me kissing a girl would only be supported and encouraged :D

Pot. Meet kettle.

All you have to say is that EVERYBODY should agree with homosexuality, even in a country you've never been at and that everybody who doesn't agree is evil and narrowminded  and all that and that making a law that isn't even AGAINST homosexuality is the end of the world. You try to stick YOUR point of view down the throats of everybody. I'm trying to open up people to see that there are other views to this, not just mine or yours or whoever.

-edit-
« Last Edit: September 21, 2013, 03:19:42 PM by Dashenka »

Offline Rogue

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Re: Moving the Winter Olympics...
« Reply #516 on: September 21, 2013, 03:20:48 PM »
No but in clubs there's generally only youth and they tend to be a bit more open than random people on the street. Besides I'm pretty sure that in a certain nightclub in London (and even in Moscow) me kissing a girl would only be supported and encouraged :D

All you have to say is that EVERYBODY should agree with homosexuality, even in a country you've never been at and that everybody who doesn't agree is evil and narrowminded  and all that and that making a law that isn't even AGAINST homosexuality is the end of the world. You try to stick YOUR point of view down the throats of everybody. I'm trying to open up people to see that there are other views to this, not just mine or yours or whoever.

But.... but it is against homosexuality.... I thought we'd already agreed on that one....

It's making it correct to censor a specific people and all that support that specific people. And that specific people is anyone who is homosexual.

>.>
« Last Edit: September 21, 2013, 03:23:01 PM by Rogue of TimeyWimey Stuff »

Offline Valthazar

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Re: Moving the Winter Olympics...
« Reply #517 on: September 21, 2013, 03:21:47 PM »
I think there's a lot of confusion in this thread about people viewing the legal aspect of homosexual rights, and the social perception of homosexuals as two separate entities.  The reason that homosexual equality is slowly becoming the law in the US, is because the majority of Americans now accept homosexuality - but before the social acceptance, the law mirrored the social views.  Otherwise, the law would not have mirrored the outlooks and desires of the American people.

I think what Dashenka and I are saying, is that Russia needs to go through that same process, on their own timeline.

Online Dashenka

Re: Moving the Winter Olympics...
« Reply #518 on: September 21, 2013, 03:23:05 PM »
No it is against homosexuality propaganda, saying that it's the best thing, openly showing it, etc. Nowhere in that law does it state you cannot be a homosexual.

Offline Rogue

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Re: Moving the Winter Olympics...
« Reply #519 on: September 21, 2013, 03:26:31 PM »
I think there's a lot of confusion in this thread about people viewing the legal aspect of homosexual rights, and the social perception of homosexuals as two separate entities.  The reason that homosexual equality is slowly becoming the law in the US, is because the majority of Americans now accept homosexuality - but before the social acceptance, the law mirrored the social views.  Otherwise, the law would not have mirrored the outlooks and desires of the American people.

I think what Dashenka and I are saying, is that Russia needs to go through that same process, on their own timeline.

I approve of this mentality, but when the government is focused on retaining the past and not moving towards the future, it upsets me. Especially with the amount of censorship that is abound in Russia. ((At least from my understandings of their government.))

Online Dashenka

Re: Moving the Winter Olympics...
« Reply #520 on: September 21, 2013, 03:29:21 PM »
I approve of this mentality, but when the government is focused on retaining the past and not moving towards the future, it upsets me. Especially with the amount of censorship that is abound in Russia. ((At least from my understandings of their government.))

The Russian government is moving towards the future. They're just trying to keep that future free of homosexuals, which will not happen of course. The censorship in Russia is a whole different issue though.

Offline Valthazar

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Re: Moving the Winter Olympics...
« Reply #521 on: September 21, 2013, 03:31:10 PM »
I approve of this mentality, but when the government is focused on retaining the past and not moving towards the future, it upsets me. Especially with the amount of censorship that is abound in Russia. ((At least from my understandings of their government.))

Our news networks are biased as well - telling us about how restrictive the Russian government is, or how potentially violent Iran could be.  But if you look at Russian media, or Iranian media, you'll see equal bias against us.  As much as I wish I could believe that America is a truly free-press society, the American mainstream media (Fox, CNN, etc.) is biased in its own ways.

Online Dashenka

Re: Moving the Winter Olympics...
« Reply #522 on: September 21, 2013, 03:32:20 PM »
Our news networks are biased as well - telling us about how restrictive the Russian government is, or how potentially violent Iran could be.  But if you look at Russian media, or Iranian media, you'll see equal bias against us.  As much as I wish I could believe that America is a truly free-press society, the American mainstream media (Fox, CNN, etc.) is biased in its own ways.

Biased yes but not censoring. Russian media is seriously censored, but again that is a different debate :)

Offline Rogue

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Re: Moving the Winter Olympics...
« Reply #523 on: September 21, 2013, 03:41:59 PM »
The Russian government is moving towards the future. They're just trying to keep that future free of homosexuals, which will not happen of course. The censorship in Russia is a whole different issue though.

I'm not going to go back the 15 or so pages to find this, but you said something to the effect of Russia wanting to keep their lives the same. Sticking to their roots. Something to those affects. This means a lack of progression. Mind you there have been moments where this has happened in the US and the next generation just kind of goes NO and breaks that mentality.

Our news networks are biased as well - telling us about how restrictive the Russian government is, or how potentially violent Iran could be.  But if you look at Russian media, or Iranian media, you'll see equal bias against us.  As much as I wish I could believe that America is a truly free-press society, the American mainstream media (Fox, CNN, etc.) is biased in its own ways.

I avoid major news networks to be honest and stick to multiple sources on the internet. Or hear about a thing and do my own research and form my own views. OR at least try my hardest to.

Offline Valthazar

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Re: Moving the Winter Olympics...
« Reply #524 on: September 21, 2013, 03:44:37 PM »
I'm not going to go back the 15 or so pages to find this, but you said something to the effect of Russia wanting to keep their lives the same. Sticking to their roots. Something to those affects. This means a lack of progression. Mind you there have been moments where this has happened in the US and the next generation just kind of goes NO and breaks that mentality.

What's wrong with this though?  Maybe this will happen in Russia in 20 years, and that's fantastic - it is on their natural timeline.  We might be a little bit ahead of the Russians in being an equal society, but that's for the Russians and their government to sort out, right?