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Author Topic: Moving the Winter Olympics...  (Read 14035 times)

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Offline Dashenka

Re: Moving the Winter Olympics...
« Reply #475 on: September 21, 2013, 09:58:40 AM »
Yes. But we've already established that everyone here disagrees with the law and that demonstrating against it and Russia will not help at all, in fact it will only make the Russians feel stronger for the law.

Offline Imogen

Re: Moving the Winter Olympics...
« Reply #476 on: September 21, 2013, 09:59:14 AM »
That's exactly what happened in this topic :)

I don't want people to answer the question to me or something because I don't care what or how people think about it but if and when homosexuals are so prat on being equal to others, they should treat people who don't think or agree like them as equal as well.

Which isn't happening by some people in this topic and a lot of people in real life.

In theory, you're right.

However, it's not that simple. There's a lot of emotional background that can't be ignored. That doesn't make your point less valid, but it does impact the debate. In theory, they 'should' but I can understand why they can't.

Offline kylie

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Re: Moving the Winter Olympics...
« Reply #477 on: September 21, 2013, 10:06:54 AM »
Yes. But we've already established that everyone here disagrees with the law and that demonstrating against it and Russia will not help at all, in fact it will only make the Russians feel stronger for the law.

     You mean what you say is the majority, e.g. people that are not getting beaten up or jailed partly due to the law being in existence (and for the most part, also people that are not gay)?  Or perhaps do you just mean the politicians directly behind the law and their most vocal supporters?

     "Not help at all" is awfully broad and I think you might have quite a task to convince me on that.

Offline Imogen

Re: Moving the Winter Olympics...
« Reply #478 on: September 21, 2013, 10:09:00 AM »
     You mean what you say is the majority, e.g. people that are not getting beaten up or jailed partly due to the law being in existence (and for the most part, also people that are not gay)?  Or perhaps do you just mean the politicians directly behind the law and their most vocal supporters?

     "Not help at all" is awfully broad and I think you might have quite a task to convince me on that.

That's kinda beating a dead horse, Kylie. The current topic is on Dashenka's earlier question.

Offline Dashenka

Re: Moving the Winter Olympics...
« Reply #479 on: September 21, 2013, 10:10:18 AM »
I can't. I know there is a lot of emotional background but being equal is equal in the end. If that is the main issue of a person, they should practice what they preach. If straight people have to accept the homosexuals and their beliefs, the homosexuals have to accept the straight people and their beliefs.

And since it's seemingly all about equality..... A reason I can think of why homosexuals won't accept straight people who disagree... is because they don't want to be equal and they actually like being a minority and blame everything that happens to them on them being oppressed. It's a safety feeling. It's not my fault, but I'm being oppressed.

It's like that trend a few years ago that everybody who committed a crime suddenly blamed it on their bad youth.


     You mean what you say is the majority, e.g. people that are not getting beaten up or jailed partly due to the law being in existence (and for the most part, also people that are not gay)?  Or perhaps do you just mean the politicians directly behind the law and their most vocal supporters?

     "Not help at all" is awfully broad and I think you might have quite a task to convince me on that.

It will not help change the Russian attitude towards homosexuality. It will only make the Russians feel more confident that they did the right thing. Whether you believe it or not, this is how it is.


Offline Imogen

Re: Moving the Winter Olympics...
« Reply #480 on: September 21, 2013, 10:16:16 AM »
I can't. I know there is a lot of emotional background but being equal is equal in the end. If that is the main issue of a person, they should practice what they preach. If straight people have to accept the homosexuals and their beliefs, the homosexuals have to accept the straight people and their beliefs.

And since it's seemingly all about equality..... A reason I can think of why homosexuals won't accept straight people who disagree... is because they don't want to be equal and they actually like being a minority and blame everything that happens to them on them being oppressed. It's a safety feeling. It's not my fault, but I'm being oppressed.

It's like that trend a few years ago that everybody who committed a crime suddenly blamed it on their bad youth.

I'm not convinced.

This isn't a perfect world. Not every LGBT will accept there are/will be others with no tolerance for LGBT, same as not every straight person will accept LGBT. The reason you mentioned might occur, just as the ones who blamed their bad childhood for youth crimes, whatever. Possibly.

What it boils down to, is that we're dealing with so many individuals and so many opinions that it's not gonna happen that all agree. So, there will be some LGBT who can't tolerate those who feel LGBT is a disease/sin/<insert applicable bad something>, and there'll be straight people who dislike the LGBT who can't accept those straight who feel LGBT is sin/disease/etc. ...And so on.

If we're going into a situation where X accuses Y of not tolerating Z who accuses X of not tolerating A.... well, we can keep ourselves entertained forever.

Offline Dashenka

Re: Moving the Winter Olympics...
« Reply #481 on: September 21, 2013, 10:17:35 AM »
Agree. I didn't mean they ALL think that. Should perhaps been a bit clearer.

Offline kylie

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Re: Moving the Winter Olympics...
« Reply #482 on: September 21, 2013, 10:18:36 AM »
That's kinda beating a dead horse, Kylie. The current topic is on Dashenka's earlier question.
     Sorry if so, but this thing is 20 pp. long and I thought it was supposed to have something to do with whether it was a good idea to move the Olympics, i.e. whether there was some substantive reason for opposing the law.  Now if I must be redirected back some arbitrary number of posts every so often to make you feel "current," then so sorry for interrupting.

Offline Valthazar

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Re: Moving the Winter Olympics...
« Reply #483 on: September 21, 2013, 10:21:37 AM »
     Sorry if so, but this thing is 20 pp. long and I thought it was supposed to have something to do with whether it was a good idea to move the Olympics, i.e. whether there was some substantive reason for opposing the law.  Now if I must be redirected back some arbitrary number of posts every so often to make you feel "current," then so sorry for interrupting.

I think she was just trying to keep this discussion of a productive nature, rather than make it confrontational by rehashing past disagreements, is all.

Offline Imogen

Re: Moving the Winter Olympics...
« Reply #484 on: September 21, 2013, 10:22:07 AM »
     Sorry if so, but this thing is 20 pp. long and I thought it was supposed to have something to do with whether it was a good idea to move the Olympics, i.e. whether there was some substantive reason for opposing the law.  Now if I must be redirected back some arbitrary number of posts every so often to make you feel "current," then so sorry for interrupting.

Yep, that happens when people post in your absence. People have responded to other people. If you want to join that discussion, reading back a couple of a posts seems like a common sense thing to do.

Offline Imogen

Re: Moving the Winter Olympics...
« Reply #485 on: September 21, 2013, 10:23:40 AM »
I think she was just trying to keep this discussion of a productive nature, rather than make it confrontational by rehashing past disagreements, is all.

I have no idea what anyone's thinking who can't be bothered to read the past couple of posts in a discussion before responding.

Offline Dashenka

Re: Moving the Winter Olympics...
« Reply #486 on: September 21, 2013, 10:30:48 AM »
     Sorry if so, but this thing is 20 pp. long and I thought it was supposed to have something to do with whether it was a good idea to move the Olympics, i.e. whether there was some substantive reason for opposing the law.  Now if I must be redirected back some arbitrary number of posts every so often to make you feel "current," then so sorry for interrupting.

In a nutshell:

There is this law that allows people to be gay, but keep it to themselves basically. This is because the majority of the Russians don't agree with homosexuality. There's been a few pages with bashing the law and misunderstandings about what the law actually meant. Then we (or I)  concluded that everybody is safe to go to Russia to see the Olympics as long as they follow the rules, something you have to do in EVERY country you go to, so why should Russia be any different?

Then some sensible people joined the discussion and we ended up to where we are now. That's basically what happened :)

Offline Cyrano Johnson

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Re: Moving the Winter Olympics...
« Reply #487 on: September 21, 2013, 11:15:35 AM »
Honestly: all the stuff about whether it's "accepting" of straight people to not expect us to be huge bigots was asked and answered really thoroughly long ago in this thread.

"...and that angle is just not interesting."
(The short version: straight people don't have to "shout" for acceptance because they already have it, that's what any form of privilege basically is; and the claim that it's oppressing straight people to ask them not to be hugely bigoted against and judgmental about LGBT people is as immensely foolish and fallacious as claiming that it "oppressing" whites to keep them from lynching blacks for the crime of being black. Meikle covered those bases quite comprehensively, and with greatest respect to Dashenka, it is -- to put it as nicely as possible -- really super-questionable for her to keep cranking out the same lines over and over as if none of that happened, as if she expects mere repetition to do the job for her.)

More interesting just as a question in itself, and as a direction of discussion, is what Imogen brings up about the role of emotion in influencing this debate. Because I actually think emotion has played a strong role, and a very interesting one, in the evolution of homophobia and the reactions to it.

One of the most common critiques of the "gay marriage" movement from more radical activists of the Stonewall generation in North America was that it was about gaining access to bourgeois privilege, that it wasn't addressed the wider issues of poverty facing gays and other marginalized communities and that in general it was an attempt to acclimate to an institution that some radicals believed was something of a patriarchal trap to begin with.

Now, I think the "gay marriage" movement has proved its critics wrong. This is not to say that I at all accept this nonsense about how gays should not "shout about" anything: the first step in mounting a movement with any kind of self-confidence, and in beating back the self-loathing so often evinced by the "let's-just-all-stay-in-the-closet" mentality as we've seen it exemplified here, is taking the opportunity to seize your space in the public square and force your opponents to make consistent, rational arguments against your being there. Which of course, for most forms of bigotry including homophobia, can really not be done. This is a key step because, while the irrational roots of bigotry can still be used against you, court systems which depend on rationality to survive and justify themselves become harder and harder for your enemies to use, and easier and easier to turn against them, the longer you keep forcing that conversation. This is the story of the NAACP, women's lib movements, gay rights movements, not just in North America but in many places around the world for some decades.

But there's a further phase beyond just carving out some public space, the way Pride and similar phenomena did. That further step is about going beyond confrontation and catharsis and into genuinely normalizing oneself as an element of the community. And this is what the marriage-equity movement did; it built on the base of self-confidence Pride provided and allowed same-sex couples to simply stake out a place as a normal, open part of everyone's lives, of PTA meetings and bake sales and community volunteer committees and so on. Once they were able to move into this niche, homophobia's most powerful tool -- the ability to get people to turn against their loved ones by pretending "the gays" were some Satanic cult out there trying to steal their souls -- was neutralized. Suddenly, "the gays" were not some absurd child-molestation stereotype spoken about as whispers. They were simply our brothers and sisters, and sons and daughters, simply part of our families.

That they're part of our families makes attacking them much riskier. Suddenly it's not easy to walk up to someone and strike up a derogatory conversation about "faggots," because there's no knowing if the person you're talking to has a gay relative or sibling and will take your words as fighting words. The resulting change in the culture even in just the last decade is palpable. Once we started fighting for our loved ones instead of letting ourselves be pitted against phantasmic gay villainy, open homophobia just stopped being acceptable. It's a great example of emotion being used successfully in behalf of rationality.

Russia, of course, is obviously still at a far earlier stage of this process. But I hope a similar trajectory is eventually managed there.
« Last Edit: September 21, 2013, 11:19:40 AM by Cyrano Johnson »

Offline Oniya

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Re: Moving the Winter Olympics...
« Reply #488 on: September 21, 2013, 11:32:13 AM »
But there's a further phase beyond just carving out some public space, the way Pride and similar phenomena did. That further step is about going beyond confrontation and catharsis and into genuinely normalizing oneself as an element of the community. And this is what the marriage-equity movement did; it built on the base of self-confidence Pride provided and allowed same-sex couples to simply stake out a place as a normal, open part of everyone's lives, of PTA meetings and bake sales and community volunteer committees and so on. Once they were able to move into this niche, homophobia's most powerful tool -- the ability to get people to turn against their loved ones by pretending "the gays" were some Satanic cult out there trying to steal their souls -- was neutralized. Suddenly, "the gays" were not some absurd child-molestation stereotype spoken about as whispers. They were simply our brothers and sisters, and sons and daughters, simply part of our families.

That they're part of our families makes attacking them much riskier. Suddenly it's not easy to walk up to someone and strike up a derogatory conversation about "faggots," because there's no knowing if the person you're talking to has a gay relative or sibling and will take your words as fighting words. The resulting change in the culture even in just the last decade is palpable. Once we started fighting for our loved ones instead of letting ourselves be pitted against phantasmic gay villainy, open homophobia just stoped being acceptable. It's a great example of emotion being used successfully in behalf of rationality.

Russia, of course, is obviously still at a far earlier stage of this process. But I hope a similar trajectory is eventually managed there.

This, right here, is why people are twitchy about this law.  As long as behaviors that are completely normal for heterosexuals are actionable for homosexuals (note, I'm not referencing the over-the-top caricature behaviors - I'm keeping it to things that two people who love each other naturally do in public situations), it's 'okay' to call your son or daughter names because - hey, they're breaking the law by doing that in public.   Despite the fact that it's perfectly acceptable for that heterosexual couple three feet away to do that same thing in public.

It's not okay to call your son or daughter names, or to allow other people to call your son or daughter names.  If you love your children, you fight for that, so that they live in a better world.  My sister is homosexual, and my parents are devoutly Roman Catholic.  Yet, I'm sure that if someone verbally or physically attacked my sister for her sexuality, Mom and Dad would light into that person with all the fury that a couple of octogenarians can muster.  (Don't laugh - mom's license plate used to read 'I GT EVN' when I was growing up.)

Offline Rogue

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Re: Moving the Winter Olympics...
« Reply #489 on: September 21, 2013, 01:35:30 PM »
The reason I was worried was because sometimes something as simple as holding your girl's hand or leaning over to give her a peck on the cheek comes as second nature, especially when in a celebratory state such as at the Olympics. There's something fundamentally wrong with having to hold back that level of affection while other couples (who happen to be male and female) don't. It's like being arrested in France for calling what the British call "Chips", "French Fries". And while I might be aware of the law, there's no first warning system. And while I might know about the law and say it then be like "Oh shit" that doesn't stop what has happened. If a cop hears you say it, or the wrong person hears you say it, you might be detained until the police come to get you.

Until there's a clear definition (meaning several cases of this is defined as propaganda not this vaguely worded law), I will not feel safe going to Russia, so I won't. However, the Olympic competitors don't have that choice. Well they do, but the effort and time it takes to get to this level? It would be worth being arrested for the accidental "I'm going to hug you a bit longer than I need to and kiss against your neck in a lovey affection but not sexual way." I'd rather them not have to risk that or give up their life's dream.

Once again: This isn't going to change whether the olympics will be held in sochi. It's going to happen. But that doesn't make it right.

Offline Cycle

Re: Moving the Winter Olympics...
« Reply #490 on: September 21, 2013, 01:44:00 PM »
Correct but when people say it's wrong and a sin, (some) homosexuals (or bisexuals) immediately get offended and feel they are treated wrongly.

Is that a problem of them? Or a problem of the people saying it?

If Person A makes a statement to Person B, judging person B--e.g., "B, you are wrong and a sinner"--then the problem is caused by A if B gets offended.

A did not need to make a statement to B.

A did not need to pass judgment on B.

Thus, if A chooses to do these things, A must bear the consequences of the result.

Offline Dashenka

Re: Moving the Winter Olympics...
« Reply #491 on: September 21, 2013, 01:50:28 PM »
There will be arrests. Simple as that because people from free countries like America, the Netherlands, Sweden... perhaps Canada WILL provoke the Russian law. There will be massive riots and international riots because of this but in the end who is the big winner?

Putin. Because everybody in Russia will see that he is the one to protect Russia.

Yesterday the Russian navy entered a Greenpeace ship sailing under the Dutch flag. Why? Because they try to meddle with Russian affairs. So they get taught a lesson in the Russian way. Yes the ship was in international waters so the Russian navy broke a law. The Dutch politicians lack any form of backbone so all they did was send for the Russian ambassador who apologized and everything was over again, Putin gained some popularity and all is well.

The EXACT same thing will happen at the Olympics unless those free countries would stop making such a fuss about it. Seriously the only person who will gain from protesting and demonstrating.. is Putin.

When you don't know exactly how to behave to this law, don't go near the grey area.

@Rogue Russia is perfectly safe but when you're in the city, you might have to think before you hug or kiss your girlfriend out on the street. But related to my previous question, when you are out on the streets in the US (or where you live) and you know you might offend some people when you kiss your girl in public, why would you do it?


If Person A makes a statement to Person B, judging person B--e.g., "B, you are wrong and a sinner"--then the problem is caused by A if B gets offended.

A did not need to make a statement to B.

A did not need to pass judgment on B.

Thus, if A chooses to do these things, A must bear the consequences of the result.


So if you say homosexuality is a sin for God and I get offended it's your fault?


Offline Oniya

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Re: Moving the Winter Olympics...
« Reply #492 on: September 21, 2013, 02:01:19 PM »
Back when my mother was a newly-wed, people were offended by a black person and a white person kissing on the street.  There are still people who are offended by black people and white people kissing on the street.  If I were to even suggest that black people shouldn't kiss white people in public, because - oh my god - the children might get the idea that it's okay to kiss someone of another race, I'd be called a racist and a bigot.  And if I were to suggest something like that, I would be one.

Offline Cycle

Re: Moving the Winter Olympics...
« Reply #493 on: September 21, 2013, 02:05:36 PM »
So if you say homosexuality is a sin for God and I get offended it's your fault?

Not quite.

If I say to you homosexuality is a sin of God and you, as a homosexual, are a sinner, and you get offended, that is my fault, yes.

I am A.  You are B.  I am making a statement to you, passing judgment on you, and yes, I bear the consequences of that statement.  I didn't need to make that statement.  I chose to do so.  So I am responsible for starting the chain of events and the consequences.

Offline Valthazar

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Re: Moving the Winter Olympics...
« Reply #494 on: September 21, 2013, 02:06:20 PM »
Back when my mother was a newly-wed, people were offended by a black person and a white person kissing on the street.  There are still people who are offended by black people and white people kissing on the street.  If I were to even suggest that black people shouldn't kiss white people in public, because - oh my god - the children might get the idea that it's okay to kiss someone of another race, I'd be called a racist and a bigot.  And if I were to suggest something like that, I would be one.

You're right, they are a racist and a bigot, but aren't they entitled to their racist and bigoted opinions in a free country?  We can't make it illegal to think that way, so long as they aren't hurting anyone.

Offline Oniya

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Re: Moving the Winter Olympics...
« Reply #495 on: September 21, 2013, 02:09:37 PM »
You're right, they are a racist and a bigot, but aren't they entitled to their racist and bigoted opinions in a free country?  We can't make it illegal to think that way, so long as they aren't hurting anyone.

It was the 'suggesting a law' that would have been hurting people.  Not having the opinions.  Billy-Joe-Jim-Bob is welcome to believe to the depths of his being that blacks and whites shouldn't engage in any kind of physical contact whatsoever, but when he tries to hurt thousands of people by making it illegal - that's when the 'fist swinging' becomes the 'nose impacting'.*


*Reference:  'Your right to swing your fist ends at the tip of my nose.' - Oliver Wendell Holmes
« Last Edit: September 21, 2013, 02:11:06 PM by Oniya »

Offline Rogue

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Re: Moving the Winter Olympics...
« Reply #496 on: September 21, 2013, 02:10:58 PM »
@Rogue Russia is perfectly safe but when you're in the city, you might have to think before you hug or kiss your girlfriend out on the street. But related to my previous question, when you are out on the streets in the US (or where you live) and you know you might offend some people when you kiss your girl in public, why would you do it?

Because, my actions aren't affecting them at all. So whether or not it hurts their sensibilities shouldn't matter. I get offended when people blast their bass in their cars so loud I can feel it. But you know what, I grit my teeth, complain to my girl, and then deal with it. :)

I kiss my girlfriend in public all the time. And I know it's offended people. But they should get over it, the same way I get over people playing their music way too loud.

Offline Dashenka

Re: Moving the Winter Olympics...
« Reply #497 on: September 21, 2013, 02:13:40 PM »
Not quite.

If I say to you homosexuality is a sin of God and you, as a homosexual, are a sinner, and you get offended, that is my fault, yes.


I don't see it that way.

Back when my mother was a newly-wed, people were offended by a black person and a white person kissing on the street.  There are still people who are offended by black people and white people kissing on the street.  If I were to even suggest that black people shouldn't kiss white people in public, because - oh my god - the children might get the idea that it's okay to kiss someone of another race, I'd be called a racist and a bigot.  And if I were to suggest something like that, I would be one.

Because, my actions aren't affecting them at all. So whether or not it hurts their sensibilities shouldn't matter. I get offended when people blast their bass in their cars so loud I can feel it. But you know what, I grit my teeth, complain to my girl, and then deal with it. :)

I kiss my girlfriend in public all the time. And I know it's offended people. But they should get over it, the same way I get over people playing their music way too loud.

So they offend you and you offend them back? I don't know... but I played that game at school... I sort of grew out of it like... twenty years ago. :)

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Re: Moving the Winter Olympics...
« Reply #498 on: September 21, 2013, 02:16:10 PM »
Not quite.

If I say to you homosexuality is a sin of God and you, as a homosexual, are a sinner, and you get offended, that is my fault, yes.

I am A.  You are B.  I am making a statement to you, passing judgment on you, and yes, I bear the consequences of that statement.  I didn't need to make that statement.  I chose to do so.  So I am responsible for starting the chain of events and the consequences.

I'm curious now.  What if you say murder is a sin and I, as a murderer, get offended?  Or I, as a genocidal maniac, get offended by your claim that being a genocidal maniac is wrong?  Or a paedophile or one of a whole host of other negatives.  Where do you see the line as being drawn?

Offline Rogue

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Re: Moving the Winter Olympics...
« Reply #499 on: September 21, 2013, 02:16:34 PM »
I don't see it that way.

So they offend you and you offend them back? I don't know... but I played that game at school... I sort of grew out of it like... twenty years ago. :)

No... The point is, it doesn't matter. :) You shouldn't care what others think of you. I recall that being something you said a couple pages ago.