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Author Topic: Moving the Winter Olympics...  (Read 14014 times)

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Online gaggedLouise

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Re: Moving the Winter Olympics...
« Reply #450 on: September 19, 2013, 02:48:44 PM »
I'll share this Steppenwolf mondegreen:

Like a Jew, Nature's child,
we were born, born to be wild!

Offline Kythia

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Re: Moving the Winter Olympics...
« Reply #451 on: September 19, 2013, 02:55:50 PM »
The Dictator was nowhere near as good as Borat.  But still better than that Ali G film.

Offline Deamonbane

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Re: Moving the Winter Olympics...
« Reply #452 on: September 19, 2013, 03:22:04 PM »
Oh, I think there's enough ear to go around. We should hear from everybody!

I'll start: I thought the last Matisyahu album was a little self-congratulatory and lacked the musical range and lyrical fluency of his early efforts.

That's the kind of views on Jews you guys have in mind, right? ... Right?
A mite stronger, I think... and more directed towards politics...

Offline Callie Del Noire

Re: Moving the Winter Olympics...
« Reply #453 on: September 19, 2013, 03:24:46 PM »
Don't get me started on jews... I might say things I will regret later.


What's wrong with being a dictator when the majority of your country loves you and think you're doing a good job?

And when they decide you AREN'T doing a good job or runs counter to public opinion and you have to crush a group that doesn't think they deserve it. Remember what happened to Mussolini? The people who ripped him to pieces weren't the allied forces. They were his SUPPORTERS. Why? Because he failed to deliver and/or stepped on THEM.

Once you persecute one group..well you have to find a new one when the 'flavor of the purge' runs out. There were only so many Jews, Homosexuals, Jehova Witnesses, Gypsies and such in Nazi Territory.

Online Dashenka

Re: Moving the Winter Olympics...
« Reply #454 on: September 19, 2013, 03:27:16 PM »
Well, don't get all bashful now, that's not like you. I'm sure your views on Judaism are fascinating. Please, tell us more.


I won't.

Unlike some people here I think giving my opinion is a right, not an obligation.

Offline Cyrano Johnson

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Re: Moving the Winter Olympics...
« Reply #455 on: September 19, 2013, 04:15:02 PM »
Some might find that a curious thing for you to say twenty pages into obsessively defending a law and climate of homophobia you supposedly disagree with... but I've come to see it differently. Does one ask Rembrandt why he paints one subject and not another? Or Beethoven why he chose this chord instead of that one? No, one does not. Never mess with a master in the conduct of her craft.

You just share your awesome insights into "the jews" with us when you're good and ready. We'll all have something to live for in the meantime, and I'm positive the wait will be well worth it.

(DISCLAIMER: The above may not in fact be a sincere solicitation of the views of the member in question, but rather a sarcastic allusion to the high potential of deficiency in those views. We apologize for the regression into the lowest form of wit and return you to the regular thread.)
« Last Edit: September 19, 2013, 04:32:02 PM by Cyrano Johnson »

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Re: Moving the Winter Olympics...
« Reply #456 on: September 19, 2013, 04:30:38 PM »
Ok.

Offline Mithlomwen

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Re: Moving the Winter Olympics...
« Reply #457 on: September 19, 2013, 05:04:15 PM »
Time for a time out everyone. 

Edit:  Okay, re opening the thread. 
« Last Edit: September 20, 2013, 12:25:26 PM by Mithlomwen »

Offline SakamotoHD

Re: Moving the Winter Olympics...
« Reply #458 on: September 20, 2013, 06:23:15 PM »


Putin on the Ritz

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Re: Moving the Winter Olympics...
« Reply #459 on: September 21, 2013, 01:34:17 AM »
Giggles.  Sak, stop making me hungry!

     Honestly, I don't see what most of the commentary about Jewish personages really added.  Except maybe some nasty rhetorical traps...

     I've only followed a few parts of this, so sorry if this has already been done.  I suppose this is for Dashenka: 

     I gather that you feel public displays of affection can be bad -- in which case, I suggest you would come across as more fair IF you said we need a law banning everyone (not just gays) from such displays.  This is true even though I might not care to have such a law, myself.  But the standing law targets gays and leaves others free to 'flaunt' their sexuality in public (if you see it that way) as they will.  We might also conclude that in effect, as far as public space goes:  This law actually imposes viewing others' sexual (or if you like, perhaps cultural) performances upon gays, not the other way around.

     If I understand correctly, you've said a concern you have about gays in Russia as a group, is that they are pushing an agenda on others in a society where they have an uphill fight (referring to public opinion polls or the like).   At times you've compared them to the Jehovah's Witnesses going door to door.  Frankly, I feel the Jehovah's example is getting a bit far from the concerns raised in the West (more often) regarding the treatment of gays in public spaces, i.e. is this law being used to defend people who might verbally or physically attack gays simply for being gay?  The question was not all about gays going door to door with pamphlets, which would have more comparison to Jehovahs...   I do not see how displaying affection in public, or even how simply being known/ discovered/ possibly outed as gay, amounts to a political demand that others change their ways.  Or if people are concluding that it does, then I'd like to know what they see as being demanded of them (and if that, then perhaps why it is unfair).  In particular, I don't believe that public displays of affection by gays (or simply being known as gay) devalue others' marriages or should make their relationships feel any less "real" -- unless maybe there is something pretty twisted/ wrong with them already. 

     That is, unless you believe what some American conservatives have suggested:  Some of them have tried to claim that there is a "gay culture" which, when visible in any way in public, somehow directly conflicts with the practices of straight culture so there must be some conflict and only one of them can be have what it needs in any given place.  However, I believe if you take this view and you are gay, then you are also creating a situation where any time anyone who doesn't like gays for any reason comes anywhere near you, you are going to be continually forced to hide, shut up, or flee.  Or you may not get the chance: If the trend continues toward unpunished attacks on gays, then you may simply get subjected to violence and the perpetrators may not be punished.  At least in principle, that is where that leads.  Of course, in rationalization you can say yeah, yeah, same for minorities everywhere historically...  But then if someone feels like murdering you or jailing your lover just because you're gay, you have no practical defense (or does everyone hire private security?) and they might choose to do it on a whim, not only because you were "too loud" or too visible.  Being cautious or "politely" avoiding offense if you prefer, will not ultimately ensure you are safe in that sort of environment. 

« Last Edit: September 21, 2013, 01:44:40 AM by kylie »

Offline Cyrano Johnson

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Re: Moving the Winter Olympics...
« Reply #460 on: September 21, 2013, 02:06:06 AM »
Honestly, I don't see what most of the commentary about Jewish personages really added.  Except maybe some nasty rhetorical traps...

It's hardly possible to "trap" someone who's already jumped down a tiger pit. One can only choose whether to laugh or cry.

That being said, I do find the "Putin on the Ritz" brand of joke more pleasant by far.

Online Dashenka

Re: Moving the Winter Olympics...
« Reply #461 on: September 21, 2013, 03:59:35 AM »
I have to make myself a bit clearer I guess on the matter of public affection and the comparison to Jehova's.

The reason why I brought up the fact that I find it weird to show a certain level of affection in public is because I mean that for everyone. Not just gay people. If you want to french kiss, for God sake, get a room. Don't do it out on the streets. I don't care if you're old, fat, black, gay or transsexual, for me that is just showing moral values and as I said, maybe I'm old fashioned on this matter.

As for the other point, it's something I have been trying to explain before but obviously not made myself clear enough. Having a chaotic brain, autism and English not being my native language doesn't help that.

I get the impression (and I base this mostly on my three years in Amsterdam) that gay people and transsexuals (forgive the generalization) want to be different, but at the same time be accepted as 'normal people'.

Why do I think that?

Mostly those Gay Pride parades. I have nothing against it and if people want to participate, they should be free to do so, but why are you going to act differently to 'normal people', when you so desperately want to be treated as normal? In some parts of the world (the Netherlands is one of those places), saying you don't like gay people is almost a crime. It's the political correct mob saying that because they are a minority, you can't say bad things about them. As if saying you don't like them is a bad thing?

Which led me to the question if it is okay for gay people to disrespect the opinion of straight people, but when a straight person tells you he/she has nothing with homosexuality, it's found dumb and idiotic. I think that is not the way forward. You cannot be expected to act different but be found normal, it doesn't work like that.

If you are gay, which I am, don't go shout about it. What's the point if the whole world knows you are gay? Will it change anything? Straight people don't shout about them being straight.

I hope this made things a bit clearer.


Offline Imogen

Re: Moving the Winter Olympics...
« Reply #462 on: September 21, 2013, 04:21:42 AM »

Mostly those Gay Pride parades. I have nothing against it and if people want to participate, they should be free to do so, but why are you going to act differently to 'normal people', when you so desperately want to be treated as normal? In some parts of the world (the Netherlands is one of those places), saying you don't like gay people is almost a crime. It's the political correct mob saying that because they are a minority, you can't say bad things about them. As if saying you don't like them is a bad thing?


That sounds like the fairly normal reaction after discrimination is no longer acceptable. There's a pretty famous comic here (locally famous, at least) about a girl who comes home crying after school because there's a new kid in her class and she doesn't like the kid. Mom tries to comfort her and tell her it's perfectly alright and she doesn't have to like everyone, but the girl keeps crying and saying that's not alright.  And then it dawns on mom, and they both look troubled when they realize.... the new kid is black.

So. yeah. That overreaction is nothing new. It will pass.

Quote
Which led me to the question if it is okay for gay people to disrespect the opinion of straight people, but when a straight person tells you he/she has nothing with homosexuality, it's found dumb and idiotic. I think that is not the way forward. You cannot be expected to act different but be found normal, it doesn't work like that.

Being gay doesn't stop them from being human. Unfortunately, that means there'll be an equal share of idiots.

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Re: Moving the Winter Olympics...
« Reply #463 on: September 21, 2013, 05:46:27 AM »
     It sort of boggles my mind what people mean when they say things like, gay people don't act "normal."  Do they seem too happy, or too loud?  Do they dare to talk about some social issues in public that other groups don't?  Do the mean wear pink when maybe straight guys won't so often?  Do they not need to go through their parents for permission on who to date as often?  I mean, there are so many possibilities and I'm not really sure where it's going.  That is why I say, well if people feel that gay culture is different, please tell me exactly what you have in mind because I have no idea.  I could guess this, that or the other, but it may not be true of the people you're thinking of -- much less of all gays.  Or, it may not be what the people the law serves are concerned about, in particular.

     I do think there can be ways that certain groups do things differently.  Some tend to be more educated, more liberal, more cooperative, more sex-positive, etc.  These aren't bad things in my book (not saying they have no faults whatsoever -- but show me the faults are really worse than in any other orientation group).  But yeah, maybe those do lead others to feel a bit put off or threatened.  If one suddenly realizes that their whole sense of self-worth is grounded in say, their wife making less money and acting more like a domestic servant with limited choices and having few legal protections, and then a couple with two guys makes some talk in public about how nicely a man can dress and cook, that can be upsetting.  Does that mean straight couples should be protected from hearing anything about it, just so they never end up questioning traditional gender roles?  Even if those roles are patently unequal?  I don't think so...  But maybe there are some cases of actual difference that are less obviously related to social progress and equality. 

     After that, well some forms of difference are rather harmless and maybe some, a society can learn to deal with in happier ways than outlawing public displays or discussion.  Then there are cases like Imogen's Black example, where the only difference is a matter of what one is, and attacking people for that isn't really going to resolve the issue.  It could even make it worse because even if one group is pushed into the shadows, a society that thinks this way can always find someone else who might be called "different" somehow, for something...  On and on.
« Last Edit: September 21, 2013, 05:48:00 AM by kylie »

Online Dashenka

Re: Moving the Winter Olympics...
« Reply #464 on: September 21, 2013, 08:26:12 AM »
So.. that leads me to this question.. again.


Straight people have to accept homosexuals for their homosexuality, but homosexuals don't have to accept straight people for not liking homosexuality.


Is that how it works? Cause if that's how it works in the western society I'm moving back to Moscow tomorrow.



Offline Iniquitous

Re: Moving the Winter Olympics...
« Reply #465 on: September 21, 2013, 08:48:26 AM »
I would think that what the LGBT community wants is to be accepted as people with rights too. They are human, they have thoughts and feelings, they live and they die. As such they should have the exact same rights and considerations as straight people do.

I honestly do not think it is a matter of “you have to like homosexuality!’ My daughter is bisexual, in a relationship with a girl. My parents are die hard conservative Christians. They obviously do not approve. At all. But they accept my daughter as a person, as their granddaughter and accept that she has the right to live her life as she wants. But they also made it clear when she announced her relationship that they believe what she is doing is a sin and wrong.

There is a big difference between accepting someone for who they are and having to like their lifestyle. 

Online Dashenka

Re: Moving the Winter Olympics...
« Reply #466 on: September 21, 2013, 08:58:12 AM »
Correct but when people say it's wrong and a sin, (some) homosexuals (or bisexuals) immediately get offended and feel they are treated wrongly.

Is that a problem of them? Or a problem of the people saying it?

Offline Kythia

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Re: Moving the Winter Olympics...
« Reply #467 on: September 21, 2013, 09:04:44 AM »
Interesting question.  My gut answer is "them" but I'm kinda interested to hear what others think on that.

Offline Imogen

Re: Moving the Winter Olympics...
« Reply #468 on: September 21, 2013, 09:27:27 AM »
Correct but when people say it's wrong and a sin, (some) homosexuals (or bisexuals) immediately get offended and feel they are treated wrongly.

Is that a problem of them? Or a problem of the people saying it?

I found that a very confrontational question. A good question, even.

My first impulse would be to answer: everyone is responsible for their own responses to someone else's misguided opinions.

Looking at it, I'm sort of content with that answer, but at the same time I'm looking for my umbrella to weather out the storm of "so you approve of all those people who have shunned us all those years and you don't give a shit about what it's doing our self worth, and do you know how many LGBT people committed suicide because of...etc.etc.etc." And I find myself going like "yeah..yeah..you got a point", and then stop myself short and think: No. Not if you want to be treated like anyone else. Dealing with opinions that may have an impact on self-worth isn't restricted to LGBT people. So, I'd toss another vote in for 'them'.

Again, I find this a tough question as it evokes both a rational and an emotional response.

Online Dashenka

Re: Moving the Winter Olympics...
« Reply #469 on: September 21, 2013, 09:29:40 AM »
It's the point I have been trying to make since almost the start of this whole conversation :)

I found it confrontational as well so I thought about it years ago. And I know my answer back then, and right now. Hence my previous comments on living my own life.

Offline Imogen

Re: Moving the Winter Olympics...
« Reply #470 on: September 21, 2013, 09:37:45 AM »
Note that my reply applies to the "opinion" someone may hold, and not the "actions based on said opinion". That's another can of worms which is often opened simultaneously with answering your question.

« Last Edit: September 21, 2013, 09:41:08 AM by Imogen »

Offline Kythia

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Re: Moving the Winter Olympics...
« Reply #471 on: September 21, 2013, 09:38:43 AM »
Ha, Ninja'd by Imogen.  Was just about to say that.  Two entirely different things though.

Offline Imogen

Re: Moving the Winter Olympics...
« Reply #472 on: September 21, 2013, 09:40:37 AM »
Ohhh, I ninja'd Kythia! ./flex!

on topic:

It's the kind of debate that usually ends in "So, you feel discrimination is okay? They should just suck it up? Great, wish the Jews had known that.. 'you're responsible for your own feelings, guys!'"

Questions like these lend themselves for polarization far too easily.

Online Dashenka

Re: Moving the Winter Olympics...
« Reply #473 on: September 21, 2013, 09:52:03 AM »
That's exactly what happened in this topic :)

I don't want people to answer the question to me or something because I don't care what or how people think about it but if and when homosexuals are so prat on being equal to others, they should treat people who don't think or agree like them as equal as well.

Which isn't happening by some people in this topic and a lot of people in real life.

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Re: Moving the Winter Olympics...
« Reply #474 on: September 21, 2013, 09:55:41 AM »
Correct but when people say it's wrong and a sin, (some) homosexuals (or bisexuals) immediately get offended and feel they are treated wrongly.

Is that a problem of them? Or a problem of the people saying it?
     It's irrelevant to the problem of having a law that specifically targets gays.  Here you have one side saying only they should be able to talk and making it a law.

And there is still that difference between simply saying, I don't approve in principle -- and saying, we can't allow this to be seen or heard, anywhere public, or especially by children.

    [Adds...]  But yeah, when you come down to making it only about 'well everyone should have the right to be heard [in public spaces or in say, the education system?] no matter the merits of what they say,' then there are some things that are just known to lead to prejudice and abuse.  And being offended if people tell you so in response and find that upsetting, doesn't change it. 
« Last Edit: September 21, 2013, 10:03:19 AM by kylie »