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Author Topic: Moving the Winter Olympics...  (Read 14101 times)

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Offline Rogue

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Re: Moving the Winter Olympics...
« Reply #425 on: September 19, 2013, 01:06:42 PM »
Also, I wish the US would legalize marajuana! Then we could tax it and give it out for medical purposes as well! And we could make sure it remains pure, not laced with anything (horror story from my Mom). And it will make jobs. :) All around, legalizing marajuana is a good idea. Same with prostitution. Laws to protect prostitutes and their customers would be beneficial in my opinion. Such as laws making it mandatory for drug screenings at least yearly on the prostitute's part. All of this would benefit the US in my opinion.

Also, as we've said before, protesting in and outside of countries has changed things. Look at the Apartheid. A people being oppressed. And then people stand up to fight it in and out of country. And now no more apartheid. Racism still runs rampant in South Africa, but at least laws protect them.

Offline Dashenka

Re: Moving the Winter Olympics...
« Reply #426 on: September 19, 2013, 01:07:53 PM »
Yes but South Africa back then is a world of difference with Russia of today.

Offline Rogue

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Re: Moving the Winter Olympics...
« Reply #427 on: September 19, 2013, 01:16:05 PM »
Yes but South Africa back then is a world of difference with Russia of today.

Yes, but on the other hand, we've still got a people oppressed. What's the next law to come out? One that requires homosexuals to wear something signifying their sexuality so that employers know they don't want to hire this person?

Yes, Russia is wanting to preserve their traditions, but what starts out a censoring can become very dangerous really quickly. And I'd much rather cut it off at the base.

The only difference to me is that the Apartheid laws were used against a people that couldn't hide who they are. So now we have a law for people to hide who they are? People who, as I understand it, already feel the need to do this because being homosexual in an area that is anti-homosexual tends towards violence.

My point though, is that there are many instances in history where people from outside of a country protest an idea and the idea ends up getting changed. Don't underestimate international pressure on a country.

Offline Dashenka

Re: Moving the Winter Olympics...
« Reply #428 on: September 19, 2013, 01:18:19 PM »
As long as the people in the country don't want it to change, nothing will change. The number of people opressed in South Africa by the Apartheid was much larger than the numbers in Russia. As long as the majority of the Russians don't like homosexuals or transsexuals, nothing will change.

Offline Oniya

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Re: Moving the Winter Olympics...
« Reply #429 on: September 19, 2013, 01:20:33 PM »
And until it does, Russia can continue treating them like lesser beings, right?

Offline Dashenka

Re: Moving the Winter Olympics...
« Reply #430 on: September 19, 2013, 01:26:28 PM »
Sigh...


since you are all so desperate to hear me say it... apparently...



yes

Offline Rogue

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Re: Moving the Winter Olympics...
« Reply #431 on: September 19, 2013, 01:31:00 PM »
Okay. Here's my issue in a nutshell. Here's how dictators work.

Step one: Gain power through legal means.
Step two: Give the people an enemy that people want to have as an enemy.
Step three: Start making laws oppressing these people.
Step four: Become dictator.

See my issue? Especially given who Putin was under the USSR. I really didn't want to go there, but yeah. Here's the start of step three. A law targeting a specific people.

So yeah, as long as people don't want it to change, it won't change. But if people get shown that the rest of the world thinks it's wrong, there's a heavy chance that something will change law wise at least because countries have allies.

Sigh...


since you are all so desperate to hear me say it... apparently...



yes

We're all wanting to hear you admit out loud that that's what you've been saying so that you can understand why we don't understand your arguments.

Offline Dashenka

Re: Moving the Winter Olympics...
« Reply #432 on: September 19, 2013, 01:43:27 PM »
The argument I have been giving all along is that Putin is the president of Russia and he made a law for Russia because the majority of the people in Russia agree with the law. It's a Russian internal affair.

For most homosexuals in Russia, nothing will change with this law. And the harder the world demonstrates against Putin, the stronger he becomes in Russia. So by all means, keep telling what a terrible person it is and how idiotic his rules are, all that will result in is the world pissing off every Russian in the world because most people in Russia love Putin for what he did for Russia. More presidents or prime ministers should focus as much on internal affairs as Putin does.

If you see the law as treating the homosexuals as lesser beings, you obviously have no idea what the law really means, which is rather sad cause you are complaining about it.


Do I agree with the law? No. Do I understand why the law is implemented? Yes I do.

Offline gaggedLouise

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Re: Moving the Winter Olympics...
« Reply #433 on: September 19, 2013, 01:51:29 PM »
At the peril of skirting close to Godwin's law ("if you allude to Hitler then it's over") here, but over centuries, when there have been difficult times in Russia, the Jews have been a prime scapegoat. Pogrom is a Russian word, it's happened over and over again, and the regime mostly turned a blind eye. Or even exploited and encouraged the venting at the Jews to avoid people noticing where the authorities had failed.

These days, there aren't many Jews left in Russia; they emigrated over the last forty years or so, mostly to Israel and the U.S.. Now if they had still been around in large numbers on Russian soil, wouldn't they have been the natural targets for popular fear and loot, anger and violence? Wouldn't they have been snubbed and ignored if they tried to bring the folks hounding them to court? And wouldn't Putin have wanted to see all of it as an internal Russian question?

...and would it have been acceptable for us to just say "yeah, um, if those Jews still want to live in Russia they'll have to see it realistically and obey the laws"?

Offline Kythia

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Re: Moving the Winter Olympics...
« Reply #434 on: September 19, 2013, 01:57:30 PM »
I'm not sure it's fair to single Russia out for anti-Semitism.  Over the centuries when there have been difficult times practically anywhere in Europe the Jews have been a prime scapegoat.

Offline Rogue

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Re: Moving the Winter Olympics...
« Reply #435 on: September 19, 2013, 02:00:18 PM »
I understand why the law has been implement.

You've already explained it, numerous times.

And you know what, I'm just going to twiddle my thumbs as I watch history repeat itself. Because that's what's happening. And while I don't want this to happen, I suppose the best thing to do would be to watch as it repeats itself. And hope that it doesn't.

And yes, sweetie. Any thing that says that giving knowledge to children about a people is against the law is treating the people as lesser beings, not worthy of being known about. Because people being told learning about something is against the law means that that something must be bad, not good. And children being told this? Oh that couldn't affect their psyche at all when they find out they like the same sex now could it? Being told that what they are is something that they should be ashamed of by law? Not at all harmful to them. Not at all.

At the peril of skirting close to Godwin's law ("if you allude to Hitler then it's over") here, but over centuries, when there have been difficult times in Russia, the Jews have been a prime scapegoat. Pogrom is a Russian word, it's happened over and over again, and the regime mostly turned a blind eye. Or even exploited and encouraged the venting at the Jews to avoid people noticing where the authorities had failed.

These days, there aren't many Jews left in Russia; they emigrated over the last forty years or so, mostly to Israel and the U.S.. Now if they had still been around in large numbers on Russian soil, wouldn't they have been the natural targets for popular fear and loot, anger and violence? Wouldn't they have been snubbed and ignored if they tried to bring the folks hounding them to court? And wouldn't Putin have wanted to see all of it as an internal Russian question?

...and would it have been acceptable for us to just say "yeah, um, if those Jews still want to live in Russia they'll have to see it realistically and obey the laws"?

I've been resisting this for the past two days... :(

I'm not sure it's fair to single Russia out for anti-Semitism.  Over the centuries when there have been difficult times practically anywhere in Europe the Jews have been a prime scapegoat.

You're of course correct Kythia, but see my steps to becoming a dictator. (Which is referencing the some 20 different dictators I had to learn about in high school)

Offline Kythia

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Re: Moving the Winter Olympics...
« Reply #436 on: September 19, 2013, 02:03:06 PM »
These?

Quote
Step one: Gain power through legal means.
Step two: Give the people an enemy that people want to have as an enemy.
Step three: Start making laws oppressing these people.
Step four: Become dictator.

I can't think of many leaders who didn't follow steps one to three.

Offline Dashenka

Re: Moving the Winter Olympics...
« Reply #437 on: September 19, 2013, 02:08:07 PM »
At the peril of skirting close to Godwin's law ("if you allude to Hitler then it's over") here, but over centuries, when there have been difficult times in Russia, the Jews have been a prime scapegoat. Pogrom is a Russian word, it's happened over and over again, and the regime mostly turned a blind eye. Or even exploited and encouraged the venting at the Jews to avoid people noticing where the authorities had failed.

These days, there aren't many Jews left in Russia; they emigrated over the last forty years or so, mostly to Israel and the U.S.. Now if they had still been around in large numbers on Russian soil, wouldn't they have been the natural targets for popular fear and loot, anger and violence? Wouldn't they have been snubbed and ignored if they tried to bring the folks hounding them to court? And wouldn't Putin have wanted to see all of it as an internal Russian question?

...and would it have been acceptable for us to just say "yeah, um, if those Jews still want to live in Russia they'll have to see it realistically and obey the laws"?

Don't get me started on jews... I might say things I will regret later.


What's wrong with being a dictator when the majority of your country loves you and think you're doing a good job?

Offline Rogue

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Re: Moving the Winter Olympics...
« Reply #438 on: September 19, 2013, 02:08:20 PM »
These?

I can't think of many leaders who didn't follow steps one to three.

This is true. Though the US doesn't really have laws that are specifically oppressing something that a person chooses...

And the ones that do exist are frequently being protested heavily. *nods*

Offline Rogue

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Re: Moving the Winter Olympics...
« Reply #439 on: September 19, 2013, 02:09:09 PM »
Don't get me started on jews... I might say things I will regret later.


What's wrong with being a dictator when the majority of your country loves you and think you're doing a good job?

Dashenka.... You're really making it hard to avoid Godwin's law. Really really hard.... >.>

Offline Kythia

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Re: Moving the Winter Olympics...
« Reply #440 on: September 19, 2013, 02:10:15 PM »
This is true. Though the US doesn't really have laws that are specifically oppressing something that a person chooses...

And the ones that do exist are frequently being protested heavily. *nods*

Chooses?

Typo/word left out or am I misunderstanding you entirely?

Offline Rogue

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Re: Moving the Winter Olympics...
« Reply #441 on: September 19, 2013, 02:12:33 PM »
Chooses?

Typo/word left out or am I misunderstanding you entirely?

Bad typing. Was having issues typing properly.

Basically, laws in the US generally target people that chose to do something versus people who are something naturally.

I think that's worded properly? Second part of my statement still stands.

Offline Kythia

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Re: Moving the Winter Olympics...
« Reply #442 on: September 19, 2013, 02:13:53 PM »
Oh yeah, the statement stands.  It just sounded like... bah, never mind.  Sounded like you were saying something completely different.  Hence querying it.

Offline gaggedLouise

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Re: Moving the Winter Olympics...
« Reply #443 on: September 19, 2013, 02:18:45 PM »
I'm not sure it's fair to single Russia out for anti-Semitism.  Over the centuries when there have been difficult times practically anywhere in Europe the Jews have been a prime scapegoat.

True, but it has seen unusual heights of violence over the lasty two hundred years in Russia, and often very little resistance from the state, from public aouthorities. And I'm sorry to say this, but the Russian Orthodox church, admirable in many other ways, has been encouraging violence and anger against Jews at many of those itmes. Especially troubling because Dashenka's defence of how the amnti-gay law should be accepted and not challenged in Russia, that defence seems to rest on roughly this:

1.Many people in Russia fear or despise homosexuality and other kinds of LGBT sexual lifestyles.
2.The government in a country can and should do what it needs to do to soothe people's fears, even if the fear has very little rational basis.
3. (2) is a fair motive for enacting laws according to (1), even if the "crimes" would not hurt anyone.
4. (1)+(3): It is rightful of Russia (Putin and the duma) to enact these laws against the presence of gay/LGBT activities and LGBT visibility in public.

Any of those statements would work just as fine if the fear, and the laws, were aimed at Jews in Russia, or Jewish culture and presence.

Dashenka.... You're really making it hard to avoid Godwin's law. Really really hard.... >.>

*nodnod*

From a book I found about Treasures of the Kremlin: "The terrible Ivan prayed for the souls of those very people whose earthly lives he had destroyed, whom he had sent to the gallows". Apparently he did a 'good job' in other ways...
« Last Edit: September 19, 2013, 02:20:49 PM by gaggedLouise »

Offline Deamonbane

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Re: Moving the Winter Olympics...
« Reply #444 on: September 19, 2013, 02:20:39 PM »
Must... not... get.... started... on.... Anti-Semitism...

Offline Dashenka

Re: Moving the Winter Olympics...
« Reply #445 on: September 19, 2013, 02:25:38 PM »
Dashenka.... You're really making it hard to avoid Godwin's law. Really really hard.... >.>

I don't know what that means.

Offline Cyrano Johnson

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Re: Moving the Winter Olympics...
« Reply #446 on: September 19, 2013, 02:28:00 PM »
Don't get me started on jews... I might say things I will regret later.

Well, don't get all bashful now, that's not like you. I'm sure your views on Judaism are fascinating. Please, tell us more.



Offline Deamonbane

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Re: Moving the Winter Olympics...
« Reply #447 on: September 19, 2013, 02:30:44 PM »
If her's are anything like mine, you won't want to...

Love the pic though *grins*

Offline Cyrano Johnson

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Re: Moving the Winter Olympics...
« Reply #448 on: September 19, 2013, 02:41:29 PM »
Oh, I think there's enough ear to go around. We should hear from everybody!

I'll start: I thought the last Matisyahu album was a little self-congratulatory and lacked the musical range and lyrical fluency of his early efforts.

That's the kind of views on Jews you guys have in mind, right? ... Right?

Offline Avis habilis

Re: Moving the Winter Olympics...
« Reply #449 on: September 19, 2013, 02:45:14 PM »
Leonard Cohen bums me out something awful, man.