You are either not logged in or not registered with our community. Click here to register.
 
December 07, 2016, 10:29:49 AM

Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?

Login with username, password and session length

Click here if you are having problems.
Default Wide Screen Beige Lilac Rainbow Black & Blue October Send us your theme!

Hark!  The Herald!
Holiday Issue 2016

Wiki Blogs Dicebot

Author Topic: Moving the Winter Olympics...  (Read 14047 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Iniquitous

Re: Moving the Winter Olympics...
« Reply #375 on: September 17, 2013, 11:32:48 PM »
Which he shouldn't. Because he was a lesser being from us. Equality is a dream.

So, in your way of thinking, it is perfectly alright for a whole group of people to be denied the right to be happy, the right to be parents, the right to love who they want, the right to have their loved ones in their hospital rooms/ER with them, the right to be able to have the person they love on their insurance, the right to be who THEY are. You believe it is perfectly alright for them to be targeted by hate groups - murdered because they are who they are. You believe it is alright to have adults shoving it down children's throats that being gay is an abomination... wrong... a sin. You believe it is just hunky dory for these same children to be isolated and made to feel that THEY are wrong and, in some case, end up killing themselves because they do not fit what has been shoved down their throats all their lives.

I'll go ahead and say it... something is wrong with the way you think.

Offline Valthazar

  • Writer ͏͏● Educator ● Gamer ● Roleplayer ● Debater ● Tech Connoisseur ● Gym Rat ● Procrastinator ● As they say, "A simple PM may lead to lifelong friendship" ▬▬▬▬
  • Suspended
  • Seducer
  • *
  • Join Date: Mar 2013
  • Location: United States
  • Gender: Male
  • Proceed and be bold. Embrace your insecurities.
  • My Role Play Preferences
  • View My Rolls
  • Referrals: 0
Re: Moving the Winter Olympics...
« Reply #376 on: September 17, 2013, 11:55:15 PM »
So, in your way of thinking, it is perfectly alright for a whole group of people to be denied the right to be happy, the right to be parents, the right to love who they want, the right to have their loved ones in their hospital rooms/ER with them, the right to be able to have the person they love on their insurance, the right to be who THEY are. You believe it is perfectly alright for them to be targeted by hate groups - murdered because they are who they are. You believe it is alright to have adults shoving it down children's throats that being gay is an abomination... wrong... a sin. You believe it is just hunky dory for these same children to be isolated and made to feel that THEY are wrong and, in some case, end up killing themselves because they do not fit what has been shoved down their throats all their lives.

I'll go ahead and say it... something is wrong with the way you think.

I don't think she's saying it is perfectly alright.  I think what she and I are saying is that everything you just listed, represents our perspectives only.

For example, by American standards, we all believe that women in the Middle East are treated horribly, and lack independence.  But no matter how much we attempt to leverage our moral authority to convince Saudi Arabia to change their treatment of women, the reality is that they are a different culture, with attitudes much different than ours.  As another example, by American standards, we don't think twice about killing a cockroach, or applying rat poison near our walls - while many Jain cultures will find this morally reprehensible.  But you don't see Jains launching a crusade against our way of life.

The question then becomes, do we have a right to project our cultural ideals as Americans, onto another country of autonomous, free-thinking minds that have a majority who feels different?

Offline Blythe

Re: Moving the Winter Olympics...
« Reply #377 on: September 18, 2013, 12:53:01 AM »
For example, by American standards, we all believe that women in the Middle East are treated horribly, and lack independence.  But no matter how much we attempt to leverage our moral authority to convince Saudi Arabia to change their treatment of women, the reality is that they are a different culture, with attitudes much different than ours.  As another example, by American standards, we don't think twice about killing a cockroach, or applying rat poison near our walls - while many Jain cultures will find this morally reprehensible.  But you don't see Jains launching a crusade against our way of life.

The question then becomes, do we have a right to project our cultural ideals as Americans, onto another country of autonomous, free-thinking minds that have a majority who feels different?

...this seems to be an appeal to cultural tradition...if I am reading this correctly. I don't think that just because a culture has a specific tradition or standard that they uphold about a view makes it immune to criticism and pressure internationally. Just because something is entrenched in a culture is no reason not to scrutinize it and reject an aspect of it that can be harmful.

Any culture, any tradition, is subject to scrutiny and subsequent pressure to change (yes, even from sources outside of that culture) when a well-entrenched value of their culture is denying a group equal rights without a factual or moral basis for doing so.

So yes, Americans should be able to criticize Russia's passage of the law and pressure them to change. There is nothing wrong about that.

EDIT: Added a bit to clarify my first sentence, in case I am misunderstanding. It's in the wee hours of the morning for me, so I'm not at my most awake.

EDIT 2: Also, many apologies if I bother anyone or rehash something already mentioned. I'm a little behind on the reading for this thread, but I'll catch up!
« Last Edit: September 18, 2013, 01:00:18 AM by Blythe »

Offline Valthazar

  • Writer ͏͏● Educator ● Gamer ● Roleplayer ● Debater ● Tech Connoisseur ● Gym Rat ● Procrastinator ● As they say, "A simple PM may lead to lifelong friendship" ▬▬▬▬
  • Suspended
  • Seducer
  • *
  • Join Date: Mar 2013
  • Location: United States
  • Gender: Male
  • Proceed and be bold. Embrace your insecurities.
  • My Role Play Preferences
  • View My Rolls
  • Referrals: 0
Re: Moving the Winter Olympics...
« Reply #378 on: September 18, 2013, 01:01:45 AM »
...this seems to be an appeal to cultural tradition. I don't think that just because a culture has a specific tradition or standard that they uphold about a view makes it immune to criticism and pressure internationally. Just because something is entrenched in a culture is no reason not to scrutinize it and reject an aspect of it that can be harmful.

I think what you are saying, is that what we deem morally correct as Americans, has an obligation to be projected on the rest of the world, while what other cultures deem as morally correct, does not necessarily have to apply to our lives.  Why is this the case?

For example, we rationalize in our society that animals are "different" from humans, which makes them okay for us to eat.  But there are many, many cultures in the world (Jains, some Hindus, some Buddhists) that truly believe that animals fall in the same category as human beings and have as much of a right to live as humans.  As you say, they may passionately feel that our tradition of eating cows and chicken should be "subject to scrutiny and subsequent pressure to change" because we are "denying a group equal rights without a factual or moral basis for doing so." 

As Americans, in our culture, we all realize that we are all equal, regardless of whom we love, or how we label ourselves.  But we are not the moral police of the world.

Offline Blythe

Re: Moving the Winter Olympics...
« Reply #379 on: September 18, 2013, 01:14:36 AM »
Then they are within their rights to criticize us and pressure us to change, using your example. As I said, just because a value is entrenched in tradition would not make it immune to criticism and international pressure. If someone could factually and morally argue good reasons for the USA to go vegetarian, then I see no problem with that. But it would need to be concrete proof. It might or might not work, but they could give it a go.

I am not advocating for Americans to be the moral police of the world. I am advocating that any country has the right to criticize another country's law and put some pressure on it to change, if that law has no factual and moral basis for it's existence....and I believe Russian law about gay propaganda does not have that basis. Will it necessarily provoke another country to change, that criticism and pressure? Maybe....or maybe not. But simply saying that one culture does not have the right to criticize another culture simply because the people they are criticizing are another culture is not right. No culture should have that type of immunity from criticism....and that goes for American culture as well.

EDIT: Added a sentence.

Offline Kythia

  • Noooo-one Fights like Kythia no-one bites like Kythia
  • Dame
  • Enchanter
  • *
  • Join Date: Oct 2012
  • Gender: Female
  • No one chain smokes Marlboro lights like Kythia
  • My Role Play Preferences
  • View My Rolls
  • Referrals: 1
Re: Moving the Winter Olympics...
« Reply #380 on: September 18, 2013, 01:25:33 AM »
I think your problem there Blythe is that neither "factual" or "moral" are defined as tightly as you might like.

Hypothetical Jain thinks that the US eating meat is factually wrong (because animals are capable of feeling pain) and morally (same reason).

Hypothetical Russian feels their laws are correct because the duty of the government is to represent the will of the people.  Factually most people disapprove, Morally the government should represent their wishes.

There's a mild assumption lurking behind your "morally" in that its not a writ in stone term and its necessary to define precisely whose morals you are referring to.

Not that I disagree with your premise, that countries should be allowed to criticise.  Just that defining one of the criteria as "moral" is either slipping your opinions in through the back door a little if you say "moral=what I think is moral" or watering your criteria down to nothing if you say "moral=what someone somewhere thinks of as moral"

Offline Blythe

Re: Moving the Winter Olympics...
« Reply #381 on: September 18, 2013, 01:28:47 AM »
Hmmm, good point, Kythia. I concede my wording is vague and somewhat loosely defined. Might need to find a better way to word my argument to support my claim.

EDIT: However, I do feel my criticism of ValthazarElite's point (not criticizing due to cultural differences) is still valid, as his argument did rely on the Appeal to Tradition fallacy, even if my return assertion that criticism should be permitted is somewhat flawed as well.
« Last Edit: September 18, 2013, 01:41:48 AM by Blythe »

Offline Valthazar

  • Writer ͏͏● Educator ● Gamer ● Roleplayer ● Debater ● Tech Connoisseur ● Gym Rat ● Procrastinator ● As they say, "A simple PM may lead to lifelong friendship" ▬▬▬▬
  • Suspended
  • Seducer
  • *
  • Join Date: Mar 2013
  • Location: United States
  • Gender: Male
  • Proceed and be bold. Embrace your insecurities.
  • My Role Play Preferences
  • View My Rolls
  • Referrals: 0
Re: Moving the Winter Olympics...
« Reply #382 on: September 18, 2013, 01:45:15 AM »
EDIT: However, I do feel my criticism of ValthazarElite's point (not criticizing due to cultural differences) is still valid, as his argument did rely on the Appeal to Tradition fallacy, even if my assertion that criticism should be permitted is somewhat flawed as well.

Just to clarify this point:  How does my argument rely on appealing to tradition?  I never suggested that Russia's traditional views are superior in any way, nor does Russia's present stance agree with my own personal moral view on this.   

My argument was that this is an issue that the Russian people, as a majority, will need to stand up and address - as they discover the hypocrisy in their current views over time (similar to the way we did so here in the United States).  Attempting to push an ideology that we deem as morally correct on a majority of people who clearly do not view it as moral - at least at present - cannot be justified, since the Russian people are an autonomous demographic.

edit: typo
« Last Edit: September 18, 2013, 01:48:28 AM by ValthazarElite »

Offline Blythe

Re: Moving the Winter Olympics...
« Reply #383 on: September 18, 2013, 01:59:19 AM »
My argument was that this is an issue that the Russian people, as a majority, will need to stand up and address - as they discover the hypocrisy in their current views over time (similar to the way we did so here in the United States).  Attempting to push an ideology that we deem as morally correct on a majority of people who clearly do not view it as moral - at least at present - cannot be justified.

That actually looks like a better wording of your argument than I've previously seen in the topic, Val. And the way you word it in this manner is more concise and understandable to me. I'm not sure if I agree, but I think I understood your point much better this time.



The area you had me confused about in regards to that fallacy was when you mentioned about Americans and culture in the following quotes, which did look like you were advancing the idea that we should not criticize and pressure Russia because, like the middle east you cite in your example, they are a free-thinking culture.

(I did add in an earlier edit that I might have misunderstood you and might still be misunderstanding you; I do not know if you saw that. I was aware that I might have misinterpreted what you presented for your argument)

As Americans, in our culture, we all realize that we are all equal, regardless of whom we love, or how we label ourselves.  But we are not the moral police of the world.

For example, by American standards, we all believe that women in the Middle East are treated horribly, and lack independence.  But no matter how much we attempt to leverage our moral authority to convince Saudi Arabia to change their treatment of women, the reality is that they are a different culture, with attitudes much different than ours. As another example, by American standards, we don't think twice about killing a cockroach, or applying rat poison near our walls - while many Jain cultures will find this morally reprehensible.  But you don't see Jains launching a crusade against our way of life.

The question then becomes, do we have a right to project our cultural ideals as Americans, onto another country of autonomous, free-thinking minds that have a majority who feels different?



I do question that Americans criticizing this particular law in Russia is somehow indicative of American culture being forced on Russia, though, the way it seems you are asserting. Many Americans probably would find nothing wrong with that Russian law, as many Americans don't support LGBT rights (the sheer amount of states that define marriage as between one man and woman in their state constitutions and amendments does make it clear that LGBT rights and advocacy for them are not really an aspect of American culture as a whole).

Offline Kythia

  • Noooo-one Fights like Kythia no-one bites like Kythia
  • Dame
  • Enchanter
  • *
  • Join Date: Oct 2012
  • Gender: Female
  • No one chain smokes Marlboro lights like Kythia
  • My Role Play Preferences
  • View My Rolls
  • Referrals: 1
Re: Moving the Winter Olympics...
« Reply #384 on: September 18, 2013, 02:05:05 AM »
Hmmm, good point, Kythia. I concede my wording is vague and somewhat loosely defined. Might need to find a better way to word my argument to support my claim.

Eh, don't bother.  Embrace the anarchy Blythe.  Say it with me "There is no benefit to being able to articulate your beliefs in a way that applies to every situation"

Quote
That actually looks like a better wording of your argument than I've previously seen in the topic, Val. And the way you word it in this manner is more concise and understandable to me. I'm not sure if I agree, but I think I understood your point much better this time.

I actually agree with Valthazar, but for the sake of argument:  Apartheid in South Africa wasn't resolved internally.  International pressure on the US in the 60s played a large part in civil rights legislation.  And so forth.  Historically there are many examples of injustice within a country being overturned due to international pressure.

Offline Valthazar

  • Writer ͏͏● Educator ● Gamer ● Roleplayer ● Debater ● Tech Connoisseur ● Gym Rat ● Procrastinator ● As they say, "A simple PM may lead to lifelong friendship" ▬▬▬▬
  • Suspended
  • Seducer
  • *
  • Join Date: Mar 2013
  • Location: United States
  • Gender: Male
  • Proceed and be bold. Embrace your insecurities.
  • My Role Play Preferences
  • View My Rolls
  • Referrals: 0
Re: Moving the Winter Olympics...
« Reply #385 on: September 18, 2013, 02:11:21 AM »
The area you had me confused about in regards to that fallacy was when you mentioned about Americans and culture in the following quotes, which did look like you were advancing the idea that we should not criticize and pressure Russia because, like the middle east you cite in your example, they are a free-thinking culture.

I know, that is what I am saying.  I don't think we should be criticizing and pressuring Russia, because they are a culture that is developing consensus views on this topic, just like we are.  Just because I disagree with their moral views, does not give me the right to suddenly start pointing fingers at them, and criticize them.  From a purely personal standpoint, I do hope Russia will evolve in its thinking over time, but that will come only if the Russian people choose to evolve in their thinking (and that is something they have the autonomy to decide either way).  For us to act as an external agent telling the Russian people what to think is purely an ideological endeavor.  Laws can be overturned, and new legislation can be written - but for deeply-ingrained prejudices to change, requires personal insight.
« Last Edit: September 18, 2013, 02:12:34 AM by ValthazarElite »

Offline Blythe

Re: Moving the Winter Olympics...
« Reply #386 on: September 18, 2013, 02:20:39 AM »
Laws can be overturned, and new legislation can be written - but for deeply-ingrained prejudices to change, requires personal insight.

On an individual level, yes. On an institutionalized basis, though, outside influence can make a difference at a governmental level. Outside criticism and pressure can bring in new ideas to a culture that risks stagnating in old values and beliefs. While people might not like it, change would happen. Sometimes people's actions and behavior regarding something change before their attitudes or personal beliefs do--being exposed to those other values (willingly or not) can act as that catalyst for personal insight.

Apartheid in South Africa wasn't resolved internally.  International pressure on the US in the 60s played a large part in civil rights legislation.  And so forth.  Historically there are many examples of injustice within a country being overturned due to international pressure.

Shamelessly stealing this from Kythia as an example of how outside pressure can bring change on a larger scale.

Eh, don't bother.  Embrace the anarchy Blythe.  Say it with me "There is no benefit to being able to articulate your beliefs in a way that applies to every situation"

Can I chant "Embrace the Anarchy" instead? It sounds much cooler.  8-)


**

Stepping out for now. I'm getting a bit sleepy, as it's just past 2:20 a.m. for me. Thank you, Valthazar and Kythia, for the debate.
« Last Edit: September 18, 2013, 02:23:22 AM by Blythe »

Offline Dashenka

Re: Moving the Winter Olympics...
« Reply #387 on: September 18, 2013, 03:06:34 AM »

I agree with pretty much every thing but this! You see... I would very much like to marry my girlfriend. I would love to have the same rights to care for the one I love as any other married couple. Saying I don't love my girl as much as that hetero couple is upsetting to me and that's why I want to change that. Because in the US church and state are supposed to be separate and keeping the law as it is is breaking that since it's clearly only a matter of church. And churches are welcome not to marry my girlfriend and I or any other homosexual couple! I will gladly go elsewhere to get married. But State officials should be required to marry those who wish to be married because it's a matter of state not religion. That's my opinion. :)

I also want to marry my girlfriend but I won't. In the UK, we can get married that is not the problem but the acceptance under some of her and my family members is just not there yet, So getting married would offend them a lot. Because we respect their opinions we will not get married yet.


But moreso, fine, this country may pass such a law, but then don't host something as big as the Olympic games with this threat hanging over potential visitors without clearly defining what actions will or won't be considered breaking said law.

The idea is that at this point, we still haven't clearly defined what will and will not lead to fines or arrests. The Russian government has not supplied a clear and concise explanation of what behaviors are defined within the law as unacceptable.

Yes, the athletes should be safe. I'm really not concerned about their safety at this point unless they specifically go looking for ways to push the law. The spectators however are a different story.

I don't really have an opinion on moving or not moving the Olympics because there isn't enough time for that to be a legitimate option, but I do think that the pressure is on Russia to define it's law as it will apply to those spectators, so that any visitors can go in knowing exactly what is or isn't allowed, thus giving lgbt attendees sufficient notice to NOT go if they feel unsafe.

Russia made a bid to host the Olympics. It was the IOC that choose the location. The law is perfectly clear for Russians so you can get the information you need by asking local tourist agencies about Russia. Inform yourself of the countries local customs and laws.

As I said, athletes and fans are perfectly safe. However....

I know there will be protest groups from gay groups around the world, because they think their 'brothers and sisters' are being opressed. These people do risk getting arrested, but that's the law.

So, in your way of thinking, it is perfectly alright for a whole group of people to be denied the right to be happy, the right to be parents, the right to love who they want, the right to have their loved ones in their hospital rooms/ER with them, the right to be able to have the person they love on their insurance, the right to be who THEY are. You believe it is perfectly alright for them to be targeted by hate groups - murdered because they are who they are. You believe it is alright to have adults shoving it down children's throats that being gay is an abomination... wrong... a sin. You believe it is just hunky dory for these same children to be isolated and made to feel that THEY are wrong and, in some case, end up killing themselves because they do not fit what has been shoved down their throats all their lives..

No. I did not say (or mean) that. I referred to a person committing a crime as serious as he did, or people who molest children or animals. They are lesser beings from me and they do not deserve the right to be happy, the right to be parents, etc.

Then they are within their rights to criticize us and pressure us to change, using your example. As I said, just because a value is entrenched in tradition would not make it immune to criticism and international pressure. If someone could factually and morally argue good reasons for the USA to go vegetarian, then I see no problem with that. But it would need to be concrete proof. It might or might not work, but they could give it a go.

I am not advocating for Americans to be the moral police of the world. I am advocating that any country has the right to criticize another country's law and put some pressure on it to change, if that law has no factual and moral basis for it's existence....and I believe Russian law about gay propaganda does not have that basis. Will it necessarily provoke another country to change, that criticism and pressure? Maybe....or maybe not. But simply saying that one culture does not have the right to criticize another culture simply because the people they are criticizing are another culture is not right. No culture should have that type of immunity from criticism....and that goes for American culture as well.

EDIT: Added a sentence.

Everybody has the right to criticize. Criticize all you want but as I said before, isn't it much wiser to spend your energy in trying to change things you actually can? Rather than trying to change 230 million Russians and a couple billion Catholics and Muslims.

That aside, In this case, the Americans aren't really pushing their culture onto Russia but one might see why people in Russia think or feel that way. Who had the loudest opinion AGAINST communism and the USSR? Which was the first non Russian television station in Russia after the perestroika? Fact is that the history of the two nations still prevails and tentions are still high and a lot of Russians are still weary for the Americans. So the louder the Americans speak out against this law, the more the Russian people will feel it's the right thing to do.

From a purely personal standpoint, I do hope Russia will evolve in its thinking over time, but that will come only if the Russian people choose to evolve in their thinking (and that is something they have the autonomy to decide either way).  For us to act as an external agent telling the Russian people what to think is purely an ideological endeavor.  Laws can be overturned, and new legislation can be written - but for deeply-ingrained prejudices to change, requires personal insight.

It will. Give it a year or ten and Russia's acceptance towards minorities will get higher and as Valthazar said, it's a process that Russia has to go through. Outside pressure from whatever nation will only work against that. It may have worked in smaller countries like South Africa but given the history of Russia and the present day way of ruling Russia and the more pressure, especially the US, will put on Russia, the longer it will take.

Take with that the fact that Europe is for more than 60% dependable on Russian gas, European countries have to be extremely carefull as Russia has proven to have no problems in closing the valves. Russia's international power is too great to pressure them and unfortunately, Putin knows that.

Offline lilhobbit37

Re: Moving the Winter Olympics...
« Reply #388 on: September 18, 2013, 07:21:49 AM »

Russia made a bid to host the Olympics. It was the IOC that choose the location. The law is perfectly clear for Russians so you can get the information you need by asking local tourist agencies about Russia. Inform yourself of the countries local customs and laws.

You translated the law for us and no, it clarifies nothing.

What behaviors are considered "making homosexuality attractive"? Will a couple who appears "normal" be more apt to be considered making it attractive by holding hands or kissing, thus giving it a more "normal" feel towards minors? Whereas flamboyant homosexuals may not pose rhat risk because like you, more Russians automatically dislike them for their flamboyancy?

Exactly what behaviors are allowed and forbidden? You said the law is perfectly clear so please spell it out for the rest of us?

Offline Dashenka

Re: Moving the Winter Olympics...
« Reply #389 on: September 18, 2013, 07:35:36 AM »
Already done that earlier in the topic. Translated from the Russian text. And when you are in doubt if you can or cannot do it, just don't do it.

Offline Rogue

  • The Bratling ~ her Mx ~ they/them unless other pronouns/gender are specified please~
  • Champion
  • Addict
  • *
  • Join Date: Nov 2012
  • Location: delens solem lunam facti sunt ei
  • ~Edenmon Master~ ~GenderFluid~
  • My Role Play Preferences
  • View My Rolls
  • Referrals: 0
Re: Moving the Winter Olympics...
« Reply #390 on: September 18, 2013, 08:46:37 AM »
I also want to marry my girlfriend but I won't. In the UK, we can get married that is not the problem but the acceptance under some of her and my family members is just not there yet, So getting married would offend them a lot. Because we respect their opinions we will not get married yet.

For all of your not caring what others think you care a lot more about your family's opinion than I do. You see, while I respect my girlfriend's grandparents, and they aren't just going to go away, they don't approve of us getting married or even being together. Does that mean I'm going to sacrifice my happiness so I don't tread on their beliefs? No. Not really. I mean, heterosexual couples do it all the time. The dad doesn't approve of the relationship for this and this reason and the daughter is just like, no your reasons are stupid and you can either be in my life or not. Maybe this is an american thing. Perhaps not. But even so, I don't think it's right to tippy toe around your personal happiness for the happiness of others.

Also: GOD DAMN IT WHY DIDN'T I THINK OF THE APARTHEID! *Grumbles* knew there was a historical circumstance I could have used to make my point.....

Offline Imogen

Re: Moving the Winter Olympics...
« Reply #391 on: September 18, 2013, 08:59:27 AM »
Holy cow! Is this still going on?! I thought we'd exhausted this thread to:
a. bad law
b. it's internal politics but we don't have to like it, and
c. not bloody likely the IOC is going to move the olympics?

Offline Rogue

  • The Bratling ~ her Mx ~ they/them unless other pronouns/gender are specified please~
  • Champion
  • Addict
  • *
  • Join Date: Nov 2012
  • Location: delens solem lunam facti sunt ei
  • ~Edenmon Master~ ~GenderFluid~
  • My Role Play Preferences
  • View My Rolls
  • Referrals: 0
Re: Moving the Winter Olympics...
« Reply #392 on: September 18, 2013, 09:02:06 AM »
Holy cow! Is this still going on?! I thought we'd exhausted this thread to:
a. bad law
b. it's internal politics but we don't have to like it, and
c. not bloody likely the IOC is going to move the olympics?

We did. Then something else came up semi-related so we started discussing and now the topic is so off base that it's really just a fun conversation about things. To me anyways.

Offline Imogen

Re: Moving the Winter Olympics...
« Reply #393 on: September 18, 2013, 09:06:23 AM »
We did. Then something else came up semi-related so we started discussing and now the topic is so off base that it's really just a fun conversation about things. To me anyways.

Oh pfew. Thank you! It scared me that I might have to backtrack a lot of pages to get myself reacquainted with the arguments ;-)

Offline Rogue

  • The Bratling ~ her Mx ~ they/them unless other pronouns/gender are specified please~
  • Champion
  • Addict
  • *
  • Join Date: Nov 2012
  • Location: delens solem lunam facti sunt ei
  • ~Edenmon Master~ ~GenderFluid~
  • My Role Play Preferences
  • View My Rolls
  • Referrals: 0
Re: Moving the Winter Olympics...
« Reply #394 on: September 18, 2013, 09:27:06 AM »
Oh pfew. Thank you! It scared me that I might have to backtrack a lot of pages to get myself reacquainted with the arguments ;-)

Not a problem Imogen. :)

Offline Dashenka

Re: Moving the Winter Olympics...
« Reply #395 on: September 18, 2013, 09:29:54 AM »
Holy cow! Is this still going on?! I thought we'd exhausted this thread to:
a. bad law
b. it's internal politics but we don't have to like it, and
c. not bloody likely the IOC is going to move the olympics?

Funny, I thought it became exhausted when people started to become personal and bash a country for no apparent reason. Could be me though.

Offline Rogue

  • The Bratling ~ her Mx ~ they/them unless other pronouns/gender are specified please~
  • Champion
  • Addict
  • *
  • Join Date: Nov 2012
  • Location: delens solem lunam facti sunt ei
  • ~Edenmon Master~ ~GenderFluid~
  • My Role Play Preferences
  • View My Rolls
  • Referrals: 0
Re: Moving the Winter Olympics...
« Reply #396 on: September 18, 2013, 11:28:01 AM »
Funny, I thought it became exhausted when people started to become personal and bash a country for no apparent reason. Could be me though.

Most of us bashed the law itself not the actual country. The only thing I've ever stated is my lack of desire to visit there myself because of this law. However, since the people of a country are allowing a certain law to come into affect without much protest... *shrugs* Our gun laws are pretty much 200 years old and rapidly becoming more restrictive (Because yes, in the grand scheme of things 1 or 2 years is rapid) and they're being constantly protested/discussed among the American people. What's Russia's excuse for those in the big cities anyways? Besides having an oppressor as their elected official of course. ((I've already complimented Putin's international policies. You've yet to convince me of his internal ones.))

Because Dashenka, when Americans visit Europe for the most part, we're the rude upstart Americans, no matter how polite and observant of their customs the person in question is. Barring, of course, officials. Now is this right? No. Are we judging you based on where you're from? Not really. There was one person who correlated where you were from with your mindset. But I think that's as personal as we got in this thread beyond a "This is how I would handle the situation so I don't understand why you who said "this" doesn't understand it." ((Which was a few things up from me and as I'm sure you realize only meant in the most polite and curious way.))

Offline Imogen

Re: Moving the Winter Olympics...
« Reply #397 on: September 18, 2013, 11:38:53 AM »
Quote
Because Dashenka, when Americans visit Europe for the most part, we're the rude upstart Americans, no matter how polite and observant of their customs the person in question is.

uhm..

and this is based on....what?

I've sorta have experience with Europeans for...uhm..oh, all my life, and I've grown up in a city near a military base. Never ever noticed that behaviour from anyone. But as a European I'm probably blind to our flaws and undoubtedly we ALL treat Americans wrongly.

Really, generalizations like that tend to miss the mark.

Offline Rogue

  • The Bratling ~ her Mx ~ they/them unless other pronouns/gender are specified please~
  • Champion
  • Addict
  • *
  • Join Date: Nov 2012
  • Location: delens solem lunam facti sunt ei
  • ~Edenmon Master~ ~GenderFluid~
  • My Role Play Preferences
  • View My Rolls
  • Referrals: 0
Re: Moving the Winter Olympics...
« Reply #398 on: September 18, 2013, 11:45:04 AM »
uhm..

and this is based on....what?

I've sorta have experience with Europeans for...uhm..oh, all my life, and I've grown up in a city near a military base. Never ever noticed that behaviour from anyone. But as a European I'm probably blind to our flaws and undoubtedly we ALL treat Americans wrongly.

Really, generalizations like that tend to miss the mark.

Twas a generalization. :) Stereotypes and all that jazz. Some people do it, but it's rare. :)

Offline Dashenka

Re: Moving the Winter Olympics...
« Reply #399 on: September 18, 2013, 11:45:51 AM »
I have nothing against Americans. You lot are amazing people but I know there is many people treating Americans as arogant and all, which is mostly to blame for some politicians.

Now as to what Putin did for the Russians. Basically a lot. Putin (and Medvedev) raised the Russian GDP every consecutive year, he had lifted Russia from the 3rd world into modern world leading nation.

A lot of Russians have work again, a lot of Russians have more money than they ever had. Putin's also trying to protect the Russian heritage, perhaps a bit too strong but the reason that he was re-elected isn't due to fraude, it's because he is that popular in Russia, because it's going very in Russia.