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Author Topic: Moving the Winter Olympics...  (Read 14019 times)

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Offline Rogue

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Re: Moving the Winter Olympics...
« Reply #350 on: September 17, 2013, 03:46:34 PM »
You see, where is the equality in being beaten up because of who you are? For no other reason than I'm a lesbian? I shouldn't have to hide to defend myself. And if my grandparents couldn't handle me giving the same level of affection to my girlfriend as they could a boyfriend or my cousin's relationships? I would try to get them to understand. Because that's not okay to me. Because they matter enough for me to want them to accept me as I am, not as they want me to be.

Also, people can change! It's happened before! Within my short lifetime (I'm only 22), it's gone from being unacceptable for a mixed raced couple to kiss in public to being a common occurrence. And on further note, I'm okay with people not liking homosexuals. I don't agree with it but it's perfectly okay. But like some of us like to say, "Your right to throw a punch ends when it hit's someone else's nose." And when it stops affecting the laws in place or whether or not I can rely on a police officer to do something about it, I will calm down. But until then? No... This is not the kind of world I want to live in and I will try at least to change it!

((And yes, I've been lucky enough to where I'm not speaking out of personal experience. But that doesn't change that it happens far too often.))

This is a great post, if everyone stopped worrying what everyone else thinks about them, the world would be a better place.

Yeah... if it wasn't the people making the laws that we're worried about. If those thoughts didn't have a direct impact on my life that I couldn't change. Yeah... It would be a wonderful place.

Offline Valthazar

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Re: Moving the Winter Olympics...
« Reply #351 on: September 17, 2013, 03:52:00 PM »
Also, people can change! It's happened before! Within my short lifetime (I'm only 22), it's gone from being unacceptable for a mixed raced couple to kiss in public to being a common occurrence.

If we are to use this example, I think what Dashenka is saying, (as an analogy here) is that if a very traditional, orthodox, person is intent on marrying someone of their same race, who are we to try and "convince" them that they are wrong?  They have a certain belief system of how they want to live their lives, just like we do.  Why are we trying to push our attitudes into the mainstream, if a majority of people in an area do not feel that way?  For example, many Asian minorities would prefer to marry someone of their own race.  Should we declare that we are not okay with this, and start a campaign to get all Asian minorities to open their minds to inter-race marriage, even if they deep down, want to maintain their traditional way of life?

They have a bias, and we have a bias.  We are all biased, so let's just live, and let live.

Offline Rogue

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Re: Moving the Winter Olympics...
« Reply #352 on: September 17, 2013, 03:57:48 PM »
If we are to use this example, I think what Dashenka is saying, (as an analogy here) is that if a very traditional, orthodox, person is intent on marrying someone of their same race, who are we to try and "convince" them that they are wrong?  They have a certain belief system of how they want to live their lives, just like we do.  Why are we trying to push our attitudes into the mainstream, if a majority of people in an area do not feel that way?  For example, many Asian minorities would prefer to marry someone of their own race.  Should we declare that we are not okay with this, and start a campaign to get all Asian minorities to open their minds to inter-race marriage, even if they deep down, want to maintain their traditional way of life?

They have a bias, and we have a bias.  We are all biased, so let's just live, and let live.

I'm okay with this. This is why I'm focusing on the laws and not the people. You guys are right... for individual people. I just want laws to be equal, and that includes allowing others to feel that homosexuality is wrong. But it shouldn't impede on other people's rights. Like their ability to say that homosexuality is as acceptable as heterosexuality.

Let's face it, people are going to argue all day long their opinions. I don't care about the people. I don't like laws that discriminate against a specific type of people is all.

Offline Valthazar

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Re: Moving the Winter Olympics...
« Reply #353 on: September 17, 2013, 04:00:58 PM »
Let's face it, people are going to argue all day long their opinions. I don't care about the people. I don't like laws that discriminate against a specific type of people is all.

I think you are not realizing that laws in any country, are decided by that country.  Just because we as Americans feel that a certain perspective is morally superior, does not mean that it holds equal consensus in other countries.  We can certainly sympathize, and relate, to people going through similar things in other countries - but how does that give us the moral authority to supersede their overwhelming, cultural views - in creating their laws?

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Re: Moving the Winter Olympics...
« Reply #354 on: September 17, 2013, 04:06:49 PM »
I would try to get them to understand. Because that's not okay to me. Because they matter enough for me to want them to accept me as I am, not as they want me to be.

So again, they should accept you for who you are, but you should try to change who they are or what they belief? I'm sorry but that doesn't sound very equal to me. :)

This law in Russia is a result of how the majority of the Russian people think. The only reason why it's getting global attention now, is because of the Olympics. Russia hasn't suddenly changed overnight. The 'homophobia' has been part of the Russian culture for quite a while and I don't see it change in the nearby future. A law doesn't change that. It's how the Russian people think.

I've stated this question before but didn't really get an answer so I'll ask it again.

Straight people should accept homosexual people and their beliefs and all, but the homosexual people desperately want to change the way some straight people think. Why is it so hard for some homosexual or transsexual people to understand, accept and respect the fact that some people don't agree with it? How can you expect to be treated as an equal, when you don't treat the other as equal either?

Offline Rogue

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Re: Moving the Winter Olympics...
« Reply #355 on: September 17, 2013, 04:17:21 PM »
I think you are not realizing that laws in any country, are decided by that country.  Just because we as Americans feel that a certain perspective is morally superior, does not mean that it holds equal consensus in other countries.  We can certainly sympathize, and relate, to people going through similar things in other countries - but how does that give us the moral authority to supersede their overwhelming, cultural views - in creating their laws?

I've already said this, and will say it again. I respect Russia's right to have the law. And until I receive proof that the law will not result in violence during the Olympics, I will not be happy with the athletes and their supporters having to go there. That's the point of the thread.

My point of view on Equality is a side point and nothing you two say will change that. I think that people should follow the view of

If everyone stopped worrying what everyone else thinks about them, the world would be a better place.

Because that means that people would stop trying to shove it down people's throats that they should behave a certain way. But that's not likely to happen since people insist on shoving their opinions on others, and on occasion it's not a peaceful shoving of opinions. It's violent and bloody or mentally abusive and inescapable. So yes, forgive me if I think equality is a necessary step on the road to pointless violence being reduced.

So again, they should accept you for who you are, but you should try to change who they are or what they belief? I'm sorry but that doesn't sound very equal to me. :)

I think there's a misunderstanding as far as my definition of accepting goes. Accepting is when people don't try to shove their beliefs down my throat. :) And I won't shove my beliefs down their throat. :) If something is outside of my comfort zone, I either leave or ask the person to leave. You're allowed your opinions whether or not I agree with them. So is it wrong to think that people shouldn't shove things down my throat? Whether or not that happens is something different, but that's a small thing to expect isn't it?

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Re: Moving the Winter Olympics...
« Reply #356 on: September 17, 2013, 04:32:08 PM »
I absolutely agree that equality is the next step in world peace and a reduction in pointless violence (although violence is always pointless). I just don't think it will ever happen, so I've stopped trying to aim for that and set my goals a bit lower.

You said you would try to change your grandparents so that they would understand. Is that not trying to shove your opinion down their throats?


Don't get me wrong, I've tried it many times with many different people to have them accept my girlfriend and they failed. So rather than trying again and again, I've stopped. They accept and respect me and my girlfriend and that is all that matters. Whether they understand me or not... I couldn't care less.

My girlfriend is raised a muslim, which makes being a lesbian very interesting. Her parents have accepted me, her brothers have not and don't want anything to do with her anymore. She tried to explain but they didn't listen. Their beliefs are that being a lesbian is wrong. Despite them not respecting and accepting Vika, she accepts and respects their decision not to agree with us, no matter how hard that was (and still is) for her.

Everybody has the right on their opinion, that's the good thing about freedom of speech but sometimes it's better to not say it.


Something else, if I may bring the US media back into play again for a bit.

Europe and Russia (and I'm sure there's more) all think the US gun law is idiotic and infantile (having a gun to protect yourself from other people having a gun. Really?) There's a shootout almost every month. Schools, politicians, naval bases, etc. We all have our opinions on it but we keep (mostly) quiet about it. Why? Because we don't care about a law in a country we don't live in. Apparently, for some reason, the Americans are VERY interested in laws of countries they don't live in. Is that really because the people are interested or because the media is (a bit) biased?

As for the safety of the athletes and fans at the Olympics, as long as you stick to the law, you should be fine. Russia doesn't want an international riot over something as trivial as the Olympic Games.

Offline Rogue

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Re: Moving the Winter Olympics...
« Reply #357 on: September 17, 2013, 04:43:14 PM »
You said you would try to change your grandparents so that they would understand. Is that not trying to shove your opinion down their throats?

It's a bit more simple than that. Because it would be more of, I'm going to hold her hand and you're either going to have me in your life or not. They're allowed their opinions and I'd be upset, but I'm not about to force my company on them if they can't accept me as I am. I realized after I said that wrong but... that's how I meant it.

Something else, if I may bring the US media back into play again for a bit.

Europe and Russia (and I'm sure there's more) all think the US gun law is idiotic and infantile (having a gun to protect yourself from other people having a gun. Really?) There's a shootout almost every month. Schools, politicians, naval bases, etc. We all have our opinions on it but we keep (mostly) quiet about it. Why? Because we don't care about a law in a country we don't live in. Apparently, for some reason, the Americans are VERY interested in laws of countries they don't live in. Is that really because the people are interested or because the media is (a bit) biased?

As for the safety of the athletes and fans at the Olympics, as long as you stick to the law, you should be fine. Russia doesn't want an international riot over something as trivial as the Olympic Games.
You see, we have quite a bit of interest in our own laws. A lot of interest in fact. There are a whole slew of people fighting the US gun laws. And once again it's not "having a gun to protect yourself from other people having a gun" it's Having a gun to protect yourself from the government if necessary. Also, we have quite a few hunters that the gun law would affect. It's a huge complicated mess that has to do with changing the first 10 amendments in our country which is dangerous since that includes freedom of speech. Anyways, there's a LOT of debate on laws in the US and we protest things happening on the other side of the country that won't affect us. Horribly racist law in Arizona for instance. This wouldn't affect me at all. Yet I was extremely vocal about it. So perhaps this is why we're able to be so vocal about things in other countries... because we protest laws that don't affect us all the time in other States.

Online Dashenka

Re: Moving the Winter Olympics...
« Reply #358 on: September 17, 2013, 04:50:48 PM »
Horribly racist law in Arizona for instance. This wouldn't affect me at all. Yet I was extremely vocal about it. So perhaps this is why we're able to be so vocal about things in other countries... because we protest laws that don't affect us all the time in other States.

Isn't that a bit of a waste of energy when you look at it on a global level?

People in this thread have always said we shouldn't be quiet and protest if we can because it will change the world. It doesn't. You can protest all you want, the people in Arizona would still support that law. The people in Russia would still not accept homosexuality. The people in Japan would still eat whales. The people in the Netherlands would still buy legalized soft drugs around the corner. The NSA would still tap your phone and internet. Snowden would still be sentenced to life in America and Canada still clubs seals to death. Etc, Etc, Etc.

How much money has the world sent to Africa? They're still starving.

Some things do not change and trying to change it, no matter how noble and goodhearted, is a waste of effort.

Offline Rogue

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Re: Moving the Winter Olympics...
« Reply #359 on: September 17, 2013, 04:56:59 PM »
Isn't that a bit of a waste of energy when you look at it on a global level?

People in this thread have always said we shouldn't be quiet and protest if we can because it will change the world. It doesn't. You can protest all you want, the people in Arizona would still support that law. The people in Russia would still not accept homosexuality. The people in Japan would still eat whales. The people in the Netherlands would still buy legalized soft drugs around the corner. The NSA would still tap your phone and internet. Snowden would still be sentenced to life in America and Canada still clubs seals to death. Etc, Etc, Etc.

How much money has the world sent to Africa? They're still starving.

Some things do not change and trying to change it, no matter how noble and goodhearted, is a waste of effort.

Actually... the law changed. Not a lot but it did. And it was partly because of people in Arizona. And people do change.... Not all at once... just a bit by bit... but just letting something slide doesn't help things change. You have to tell them they're wrong or they'll think it's right. Yeah, sometimes they'll think they're right anyways. But being capable of sitting down, having an intelligent debate, is part of changing peoples opinions. At least intelligent peoples opinions. I mean, yeah there's racist people in the southern US, but they've learned to either keep quiet or they've changed their opinions. All because they got told they were wrong.

Edit: going to clarify... By wrong I mean, not treating them how they would like to be treated. Not abiding by golden rule and all that jazz. :)

Double Edit: Also... Racist people all over. But that's not the point. Most of them in the US have learned to shut their mouths unless they're hiding behind a computer screen.
« Last Edit: September 17, 2013, 05:00:10 PM by Rogue of TimeyWimey Stuff »

Offline Valthazar

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Re: Moving the Winter Olympics...
« Reply #360 on: September 17, 2013, 05:06:19 PM »
I mean, yeah there's racist people in the southern US, but they've learned to either keep quiet or they've changed their opinions. All because they got told they were wrong.

This is what I don't understand.  If one of these 'racist' white people in the South, said that they wanted to preserve their "European heritage," and as a community, were opposed to interracial marriage for themselves, people like yourself would be pushing your biases on them - saying that "they got it wrong" - and essentially transforming the way their sub-culture wants to live, by demonizing their faiths.  And yet, if it was a Filipino who said he would only want to marry a Filipino person, would you still tell him that he was wrong?

We pick and choose which biases to crusade against.  Why can't we admit that all of us have biases, and every country's laws have biases ingrained in them, that constitute the biases of the demographic that lives there.  Most of the South has religiously based laws, but that represents their cultural heritage of the majority - even if we disagree with it as individuals.

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Re: Moving the Winter Olympics...
« Reply #361 on: September 17, 2013, 05:12:48 PM »
So people forced their opinion onto them saying that being a racist is wrong? :)




It's all about what's morally accepted and what is not. A lot of people think certain things because that is the right way, not because they belief in it. A lot of people accept homosexuals because it's the right thing to do, not because they ever thought about it, or agree with it. If you say you don't like homosexuals, you are automatically treated as racist and outcast in a lot of countries.

It's a global trend that thank God is fading a bit. You can't say you hate muslims because you are racist. You can't say you don't want any more Mexicans crossing the border or you're a racist. You can't ask gay people to stop being gay out in the public because you are racist. Is that the right way? Because that is obviously what some people in this very topic seem to aim at. You cannot say you don't like homosexuals or you are a racist.

What happened to free speech? The Russian people are being outcast and critized for having something against homosexuals. They use their right of free speech to speak out and what happens? The entire 'civilized' Western world starts judging the Russian people without knowing anything about them for things they say. Am I the only one seeing how that is wrong?

Russia is not the best place for homosexuals, I agree and everybody can have an opinion about it but before saying your opinion, think of the effect it will have and if it won't, isn't it better to just not say anything at all? As I said, if the whole world started bitching about American laws, every single American would be offended because who are we to judge the US right?

The whole world seems to wanna judge eachother and compare other countries to our own. Not just the US, every country has that and for what? It's like two schoolboys comparing the length in their shorts, or two girls comparing how big their breasts are. What do you gain with it? Focus on your own life, your own beliefs and leave others to what they believe, even if that means that they don't accept you. That is the ONLY way we will ever achieve equality. Acceptance.

Offline Rogue

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Re: Moving the Winter Olympics...
« Reply #362 on: September 17, 2013, 05:18:59 PM »
This is what I don't understand.  If one of these 'racist' white people in the South, said that they wanted to preserve their "European heritage," and as a community, were opposed to interracial marriage for themselves, people like yourself would be pushing your biases on them - saying that "they got it wrong" - and essentially transforming the way their sub-culture wants to live, by demonizing their faiths.  And yet, if it was a Filipino who said he would only want to marry a Filipino person, would you still tell him that he was wrong?

We pick and choose which biases to crusade against.  Why can't we admit that all of us have biases, and every country's laws have biases ingrained in them, that constitute the biases of the demographic that lives there.  Most of the South has religiously based laws, but that represents their cultural heritage of the majority - even if we disagree with it as individuals.

You seemed to have missed my first edit. Which is Wrong means Not treating others as you'd like to be treated. Which means, don't shove it down my throat and you're fine in my book. Hell, I know plenty of people who don't want to marry outside their race who aren't necessarily racist. Just don't find race x attractive.

So people forced their opinion onto them saying that being a racist is wrong? :)




It's all about what's morally accepted and what is not. A lot of people think certain things because that is the right way, not because they belief in it. A lot of people accept homosexuals because it's the right thing to do, not because they ever thought about it, or agree with it. If you say you don't like homosexuals, you are automatically treated as racist and outcast in a lot of countries.

It's a global trend that thank God is fading a bit. You can't say you hate muslims because you are racist. You can't say you don't want any more Mexicans crossing the border or you're a racist. You can't ask gay people to stop being gay out in the public because you are racist. Is that the right way? Because that is obviously what some people in this very topic seem to aim at. You cannot say you don't like homosexuals or you are a racist.

What happened to free speech? The Russian people are being outcast and critized for having something against homosexuals. They use their right of free speech to speak out and what happens? The entire 'civilized' Western world starts judging the Russian people without knowing anything about them for things they say. Am I the only one seeing how that is wrong?

Russia is not the best place for homosexuals, I agree and everybody can have an opinion about it but before saying your opinion, think of the effect it will have and if it won't, isn't it better to just not say anything at all? As I said, if the whole world started bitching about American laws, every single American would be offended because who are we to judge the US right?

The whole world seems to wanna judge eachother and compare other countries to our own. Not just the US, every country has that and for what? It's like two schoolboys comparing the length in their shorts, or two girls comparing how big their breasts are. What do you gain with it? Focus on your own life, your own beliefs and leave others to what they believe, even if that means that they don't accept you. That is the ONLY way we will ever achieve equality. Acceptance.

You also missed my first edit. Please re read and I'll respond. >.>

Also: you're allowed to say things as long as you expect people to disagree. People do that no matter what. Just don't expect people not to have their own opinions on the matter.
« Last Edit: September 17, 2013, 05:22:20 PM by Rogue of TimeyWimey Stuff »

Offline Valthazar

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Re: Moving the Winter Olympics...
« Reply #363 on: September 17, 2013, 05:24:20 PM »
Hell, I know plenty of people who don't want to marry outside their race who aren't necessarily racist. Just don't find race x attractive.

You also missed my first edit. Please re read and I'll respond. >.>

I did read your first edit.  I didn't say they didn't want to marry another race, because they didn't find them attractive.  Many societies feel that marrying another race or culture, is a violation or dismissal of one's heritage.  For example, many middle eastern Muslims living in America feel that in order to be a good person morally and culturally, they must marry another Muslim.  I imagine that you do not see a problem with this.  And yet, if a white person said that in order to be a good person morally and culturally, they must only marry another person of European ancestry, I am assuming you would call them "racist." 

My point is, we find that sort of ideology ridiculous - and feel they have a bias.  But that is their way of life, and we need to recognize, that ultimately we also hold a bias in finding that wrong.  Every opinion is a bias.

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Re: Moving the Winter Olympics...
« Reply #364 on: September 17, 2013, 05:27:43 PM »
I did read your first edit.  I didn't say they didn't want to marry another race, because they didn't find them attractive.  Many societies feel that marrying another race or culture, is a violation or dismissal of one's heritage.  For example, many middle eastern Muslims living in America feel that in order to be a good person morally and culturally, they must marry another Muslim.  I imagine that you do not see a problem with this.  And yet, if a white person said that in order to be a good person morally and culturally, they must only marry another person of European ancestry, I am assuming you would call them "racist." 

My point is, we find that sort of ideology ridiculous - and feel they have a bias.  But that is their way of life, and we need to recognize, that ultimately we also hold a bias in finding that wrong.  Every opinion is a bias.

Ah! You see, I don't like those things either necessarily! Especially if they get upset with their children for not following those laws and marrying who they fall in love with... >.> And I imagine that the white person doesn't otherwise discriminate against persons of color either? In which case I just am like, whatever man, your choice. Just don't get mad when I marry this person of color.

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Re: Moving the Winter Olympics...
« Reply #365 on: September 17, 2013, 05:31:47 PM »
I don't see how your edit affects my post  :-[

Offline Valthazar

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Re: Moving the Winter Olympics...
« Reply #366 on: September 17, 2013, 05:33:58 PM »
Just don't get mad when I marry this person of color.

This sentence is the bias in your view (just like every view anyone has, contains bias).  Because this is your hard-limit, personally, you feel that the entire culture is at fault, even though your views perhaps, are in the minority in that area.  Personally, I completely agree with you - there is nothing wrong with marrying other cultures or races.  But in certain parts of the US, that personal view (which as stated earlier, contains personal bias) is the minority view - and even if we disagree - we need to accept that others may not feel the same way as us, and living perfect good, honest, decent lives.

In other words, no one is stopping us from marrying someone of another race or culture, so why destroy an entire tradition - be it an Islamic community, Christian community, etc.?   We are free to do as we wish, so why do we need other people's approval?
« Last Edit: September 17, 2013, 05:35:08 PM by ValthazarElite »

Offline Rogue

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Re: Moving the Winter Olympics...
« Reply #367 on: September 17, 2013, 05:34:38 PM »
I don't see how your edit affects my post  :-[

My definition of wrong is more of a You're treating me like shit so I'm going to protest it! Versus "You're wrong!"

Also, brb, gotta go do something.

This sentence is the bias in your view (just like every view anyone has, contains bias).  Because this is your hard-limit, personally, you feel that the entire culture is at fault, even though your views perhaps, are in the minority in that area.  Personally, I completely agree with you - there is nothing wrong with marrying other cultures or races.  But in certain parts of the US, that personal view (which as stated earlier, contains personal bias) is the minority view - and even if we disagree - we need to accept that others may not feel the same way as us, and living perfect good, honest, decent lives.

GAH hAs a response! Brb!

Online Dashenka

Re: Moving the Winter Olympics...
« Reply #368 on: September 17, 2013, 05:48:47 PM »
That still leaves the rest of my point.

What happened to free speech? The Russian people are being outcast and critized for having something against homosexuals. They use their right of free speech to speak out and what happens? The entire 'civilized' Western world starts judging the Russian people without knowing anything about them for things they say. Am I the only one seeing how that is wrong?

Russia is not the best place for homosexuals, I agree and everybody can have an opinion about it but before saying your opinion, think of the effect it will have and if it won't, isn't it better to just not say anything at all? As I said, if the whole world started bitching about American laws, every single American would be offended because who are we to judge the US right?

The whole world seems to wanna judge eachother and compare other countries to our own. Not just the US, every country has that and for what? It's like two schoolboys comparing the length in their shorts, or two girls comparing how big their breasts are. What do you gain with it? Focus on your own life, your own beliefs and leave others to what they believe, even if that means that they don't accept you. That is the ONLY way we will ever achieve equality. Acceptance.

If everybody would just accept eachother there wouldn't even be racism. What? You don't like my colour? Oh alright. Fair does, that's your opinion.

So I can't marry my girlfriend? I accept your opinion but I whipe my bottom with it.

It isn't difficult. But in truth we all want to shove our opinions down everybody's throat because it's our human right to say what we think! Whether or not we thought about the consequences or not, we can say it, so we will.

I don't like my neighbour's Toyota Prius. I have the right to call it stupid polluting eco garbage in his face but why should I? Apparently he likes it. So why can't I just accept it? People don't like I'm gay. That's their right and they can say it, it's their right. Is it smart? No. Will it affect me? Not at all.

The RIGHT to say anything you want doesn't mean you should. Everybody has the right to critize the Russian law. Will it change anything? No. So why would you?


Now I'm off to bed. I'll reply in the morning :)

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Re: Moving the Winter Olympics...
« Reply #369 on: September 17, 2013, 06:04:31 PM »
This sentence is the bias in your view (just like every view anyone has, contains bias).  Because this is your hard-limit, personally, you feel that the entire culture is at fault, even though your views perhaps, are in the minority in that area.  Personally, I completely agree with you - there is nothing wrong with marrying other cultures or races.  But in certain parts of the US, that personal view (which as stated earlier, contains personal bias) is the minority view - and even if we disagree - we need to accept that others may not feel the same way as us, and living perfect good, honest, decent lives.

In other words, no one is stopping us from marrying someone of another race or culture, so why destroy an entire tradition - be it an Islamic community, Christian community, etc.?   We are free to do as we wish, so why do we need other people's approval?

You see, I think I should be able to say I disagree. And we can leave it at that if you will or debate it like intelligent people. :) Because I enjoy debating things in general, simply because I learn things in the process of debates. Perhaps I learn something new about the person I'm talking with. Perhaps I learn something new about the subject. Perhaps both. Debating is a wonderful learning experience. That's my reason for voicing my disagreements when I do, or voicing my agreement. In hopes of intelligent conversation.

So I can't marry my girlfriend? I accept your opinion but I whipe my bottom with it.

I agree with pretty much every thing but this! You see... I would very much like to marry my girlfriend. I would love to have the same rights to care for the one I love as any other married couple. Saying I don't love my girl as much as that hetero couple is upsetting to me and that's why I want to change that. Because in the US church and state are supposed to be separate and keeping the law as it is is breaking that since it's clearly only a matter of church. And churches are welcome not to marry my girlfriend and I or any other homosexual couple! I will gladly go elsewhere to get married. But State officials should be required to marry those who wish to be married because it's a matter of state not religion. That's my opinion. :)

Also, I think I answered your question when I answered Valthazar? I enjoy debate and will state when I find something wrong and learn new things about it. After all, I believe you're a pleasant person to be around, despite any disagreement we have in here and will enjoy talking to you again. I've learned about you and your beliefs and Russia through you. It's a learning experience being told you're wrong and trying to prove you're right. I quite enjoy it. :)


Offline lilhobbit37

Re: Moving the Winter Olympics...
« Reply #370 on: September 17, 2013, 07:29:29 PM »
I did read your first edit.  I didn't say they didn't want to marry another race, because they didn't find them attractive.  Many societies feel that marrying another race or culture, is a violation or dismissal of one's heritage.  For example, many middle eastern Muslims living in America feel that in order to be a good person morally and culturally, they must marry another Muslim.  I imagine that you do not see a problem with this.  And yet, if a white person said that in order to be a good person morally and culturally, they must only marry another person of European ancestry, I am assuming you would call them "racist." 

My point is, we find that sort of ideology ridiculous - and feel they have a bias.  But that is their way of life, and we need to recognize, that ultimately we also hold a bias in finding that wrong.  Every opinion is a bias.

The key here, and what people seem to have tried to say earlier, is this:

It's ok to make that choice within your family etc. But when the COUNTRY  makes a law saying, you may marry whomever you wish, but if a person of white descent marries someone of different skin color, and is seen outside their home together, both parties may be fined and/or face prison time.

The difference is personal versus law.

I may dislike you marrying someone because you feel it will preserve your race or some such. However, you have the right to make that choice. But when you then make a law saying I must abide by it because YOU believe in it, that is where the problem lies.

But moreso, fine, this country may pass such a law, but then don't host something as big as the Olympic games with this threat hanging over potential visitors without clearly defining what actions will or won't be considered breaking said law.

The idea is that at this point, we still haven't clearly defined what will and will not lead to fines or arrests. The Russian government has not supplied a clear and concise explanation of what behaviors are defined within the law as unacceptable.

Yes, the athletes should be safe. I'm really not concerned about their safety at this point unless they specifically go looking for ways to push the law. The spectators however are a different story.

I don't really have an opinion on moving or not moving the Olympics because there isn't enough time for that to be a legitimate option, but I do think that the pressure is on Russia to define it's law as it will apply to those spectators, so that any visitors can go in knowing exactly what is or isn't allowed, thus giving lgbt attendees sufficient notice to NOT go if they feel unsafe.

I don't feel this is right, but I'd rather them have sufficient warning and choose not to attend rather than attend and end up in jail or beaten to death simply for lack of knowledge of what fell under the law.

Offline Valthazar

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Re: Moving the Winter Olympics...
« Reply #371 on: September 17, 2013, 07:42:23 PM »
The idea is that at this point, we still haven't clearly defined what will and will not lead to fines or arrests. The Russian government has not supplied a clear and concise explanation of what behaviors are defined within the law as unacceptable.

It is a fear of fines and arrests at the Olympics regarding homosexuality, that has put this issue into the spotlight?

I always took it for granted, that as a tourist, one attempts to follow the customs and culture of the host country.  If I go to an Asian country that feels it is a religious sin to eat beef, I am not going to test my luck by pulling out a roast beef sandwich and eating it in public. 

Same way, when Hilary Clinton conducts diplomacy in the Middle East, she wears a head scarf/hijab out of respect for the culture - even though we, as westerners, might view such traditions as sexist.  We still respect their way of life.

On the same token, why is it controversial to suggest that we follow the Russian way of life, when it comes to avoiding overt homosexual affection in public for a simple sporting event?  (The same way I probably wouldn't show physical affection to my girlfriend at the time in public if I was visiting Egypt).
« Last Edit: September 17, 2013, 07:43:52 PM by ValthazarElite »

Offline lilhobbit37

Re: Moving the Winter Olympics...
« Reply #372 on: September 17, 2013, 07:54:57 PM »
What's controversial is that they still haven't defined what behaviors are allowed and which aren't, leaving tourists and visitors to have to play a guessing game on what may or may not get them in trouble.

Which leaves spectators in a very precarious position of being afraid the entire time they are there.

So while yes, people here have debated about the equality and rightness of the law, what it comes down to, and the reason people are so concerned about the olympics is that they are not directly saying what will or will not get people into trouble.

Will people be allowed to violently act against anyone they believe is gay? Or will that be stopped? Will spectators who hold hands with their SO be violating the law? Kissing? Linking arms? What will or will not lead to violence, arrest, fines, etc?

Russia hasn't spelled it out, and when there is a large amount of foreigners coming to your country for a large international event, then laws that are as ambiguously worded as this one need to be explained.

Offline Cyrano Johnson

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Re: Moving the Winter Olympics...
« Reply #373 on: September 17, 2013, 07:56:13 PM »
I always took it for granted, that as a tourist, one attempts to follow the customs and culture of the host country. 

It's also usually a good idea for a country that wants to attract tourism or host international events to not have completely hostile customs and culture.

Offline gaggedLouise

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Re: Moving the Winter Olympics...
« Reply #374 on: September 17, 2013, 08:01:15 PM »
It is a fear of fines and arrests at the Olympics regarding homosexuality, that has put this issue into the spotlight?

I always took it for granted, that as a tourist, one attempts to follow the customs and culture of the host country.  If I go to an Asian country that feels it is a religious sin to eat beef, I am not going to test my luck by pulling out a roast beef sandwich and eating it in public. 

event?  (The same way I probably wouldn't show physical affection to my girlfriend at the time in public if I was visiting Egypt).

I think it has to be counted in that not only do many people (including myself and a bunch of people in this thread) think this law is persecutive, but many don't view Russia as a nation with an accountable, reliable judicial system. A country whose courts have been known to rebuff undue pressure from political power in the cases they take on, and where sentences are not tools of political bogeying. To many people, Russia doesn't look like that kind of nation, courts can get heavily swayed by loyalty to the political bigwigs or to locally whipped-up anger. And that's part of what makes this law so sinister. 

Not only do we not know what actions will be seen as "gay propaganda", but the stakes in terms of punishments and risks of a lousy process are higher than they would have been in most western countries.
« Last Edit: September 17, 2013, 08:05:09 PM by gaggedLouise »