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Author Topic: Moving the Winter Olympics...  (Read 14119 times)

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Offline Kythia

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Re: Moving the Winter Olympics...
« Reply #250 on: August 27, 2013, 10:50:57 AM »
Mmmm, perhaps you're right there. 

I still remain very unconvinced that (gay) PDAs are being made illegal though, to be honest.

Yeah - the more I read of it.  The only thing I can see is assertions in this thread that PDAs will be made illegal.  Nothing in any mainstream media anywhere else (though obviously I haven't checked every single one) and the translation of the law:

Quote
Propaganda is the act of distributing information among minors that 1) is aimed at the creating nontraditional sexual attitudes, 2) makes nontraditional sexual relations attractive, 3) equates the social value of traditional and nontraditional sexual relations, or 4) creates an interest in nontraditional sexual relations.


makes it difficult to see how it could be illegal - at least for any sensible reading of "distributing information".  Of course, translation is a tricky subject so it could be that some nuances are lost.  But honestly, I think there's a misconception here.
« Last Edit: August 27, 2013, 10:57:22 AM by Kythia »

Offline Avis habilis

Re: Moving the Winter Olympics...
« Reply #251 on: August 27, 2013, 11:06:24 AM »
at least for any sensible reading of "distributing information".

The point of the law isn't to to be read sensibly. It's to provide a legal fig leaf. Anything you do where minors could see you could be labeled "distributing information" that "creates an interest".

Offline Kythia

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Re: Moving the Winter Olympics...
« Reply #252 on: August 27, 2013, 11:11:07 AM »
The point of the law isn't to to be read sensibly. It's to provide a legal fig leaf. Anything you do where minors could see you could be labeled "distributing information" that "creates an interest".

Yeah, certainly that's true and as I've said a load of interpretation of a law rests on the courts, prosecutors, police, etc.  But I'm not sure where your certainty comes from?  The law could just as easily be written to make those things unarguably illegal but it wasn't.  "Distributing information" was chosen as opposed to, I dunno, "Public displays of non-traditional sexual attitudes".


Offline Ephiral

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Re: Moving the Winter Olympics...
« Reply #253 on: August 27, 2013, 11:17:18 AM »
Vagueness is a strength, not a weakness. In the context of a society that embraces virulently anti-gay attitudes, that vagueness will tend strongly to the most oppressive interpretations. This is legalism as applied to gay people.

Offline Kythia

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Re: Moving the Winter Olympics...
« Reply #254 on: August 27, 2013, 11:29:23 AM »
*shrug*

Perhaps you're right, obviously I don't know for sure.  I do question your certainty on the matter, to be honest, but at the end of the day I'm not sure how much better the law is even if kissing your girlfriend in public is legal.

Dashenka - if you're still reading this thread.  Any danger of a native speaker's translation on what it says?  Just out of curiosity, really, I'm not certain of the provenance of my translation.

Offline Dashenka

Re: Moving the Winter Olympics...
« Reply #255 on: August 27, 2013, 11:50:45 AM »
What what says?

Offline CaelaTopic starter

Re: Moving the Winter Olympics...
« Reply #256 on: August 27, 2013, 11:57:12 AM »
What what says?

The law as it's actually written in Russian. I believe Kythia is asking a native speaker to read it in it's original form and comment on the translations we're getting.

Offline Blythe

Re: Moving the Winter Olympics...
« Reply #257 on: August 27, 2013, 11:57:24 AM »
I still remain very unconvinced that (gay) PDAs are being made illegal though, to be honest.

Considering how kissing people on the mouth is pretty much okay (and normal) publicly in Russia, I really doubt PDAs will be illegal with this law.  Way too many "normal" straight people would be in trouble for a cultural norm. The term "PDA" probably would have different connotations in Russia that it would to someone from a Western culture.

Heck, Putin himself has kissed men on the mouth as a form of social greeting or farewell.

But to toss in my two cents, the law is still wrong. Don't think it should affect the Olympics and the athletes/fans involved--if the law does so, we shoulda insisted on moving the Olympics.


*slinks back out of PROC*
« Last Edit: August 27, 2013, 12:12:03 PM by Blythe »

Offline Dashenka

Re: Moving the Winter Olympics...
« Reply #258 on: August 27, 2013, 12:18:46 PM »
The law as it's actually written in Russian. I believe Kythia is asking a native speaker to read it in it's original form and comment on the translations we're getting.

I haven't read it. All I know it's a law banning propaganda of nontraditional sexual relations to minors.

Nowhere in that can I read or extrapolate 'you cannot be gay and if you are, you are being arrested.' That seems to be a doom scenario created in a lot of media. (At least it is here in the UK and in The Netherlands.)

If you paint your nails in all the colours of the rainbow on the Olympics just to make a statement, then yes you have a chance of being arrested, if you go out of the Olympic Village to a bar, kiss a person of the same sex on the mouth with tongue and all, yes you probably will get arrested. If you fuck your gay partner senseless in your hotel room, nobody will arrest you. There could be debate as to what propaganda is. I have no idea what the penalty is though.

As for transgenders, I have no idea how that works. Never met one but I guess that is a bit of a vague area, as it would always be propaganda if it's obvious. But in all honestly, how many transgender athletes are there going to the Olympics?

Offline Kythia

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Re: Moving the Winter Olympics...
« Reply #259 on: August 27, 2013, 12:24:39 PM »
Пропаганда нетрадиционных сексуальных отношений среди несовершеннолетних, выразившаяся в распространении информации, направленной на формирование у несовершеннолетних нетрадиционных сексуальных установок, привлекательности нетрадиционных сексуальных отношений, искаженного представления о социальной равноценности традиционных и нетрадиционных сексуальных отношений, либо навязывание информации о нетрадиционных сексуальных отношениях, вызывающей интерес к таким отношениям, если эти действия не содержат уголовно наказуемого деяния, — влечет наложение административного штрафа на граждан в размере от четырех тысяч до пяти тысяч рублей; на должностных лиц — от сорока тысяч до пятидесяти тысяч рублей; на юридических лиц — от восьмисот тысяч до одного миллиона рублей либо административное приостановление деятельности на срок до девяноста суток.

Offline Ephiral

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Re: Moving the Winter Olympics...
« Reply #260 on: August 27, 2013, 12:26:10 PM »
As for transgenders, I have no idea how that works. Never met one but I guess that is a bit of a vague area, as it would always be propaganda if it's obvious. But in all honestly, how many transgender athletes are there going to the Olympics?
Are only Olympic athletes entitled to their rights under Russian constitution and treaty, then?

EDIT: Or, once again, entitled to walk out the front door?
« Last Edit: August 27, 2013, 12:41:56 PM by Ephiral »

Offline Dashenka

Re: Moving the Winter Olympics...
« Reply #261 on: August 27, 2013, 12:42:02 PM »
Promotion of non-traditional sexual relations among minors expressed in the spreading of information aimed at:

developing non-traditional sexual juvenile activities,
making non-traditional sexual relations attractive,
creating a distorted picture of the social views of traditional and non-traditional sexual relations
or the spreading of information on non-traditional sexual relationships, causing interest in such relationships.

If these actions do not have a criminal offense they are punishable by an administrative fine of 4000 ($120) to 5000 ($150) rubles for officials,

from 40.000 ($1200) to 50.000 ($1500) rubles for legal entities

and in case of a criminal offense, from 800.000 ($24.000) to 1.000.000 or imprisonment  for up to 90 days.


Roughly translated. Not entirely sure if the fines are correct. That doesn't make sense to me. Would make more sense if it was the other way around. My guess, if it happens once you get a fine, if it happens more than once it'll be seen as a criminal offense and you'll risk MAX 90 days in prison.

« Last Edit: August 27, 2013, 12:44:33 PM by Dashenka »

Offline gaggedLouise

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Re: Moving the Winter Olympics...
« Reply #262 on: August 27, 2013, 12:55:28 PM »
Thanks for providing the translation, Dashenka.

I was wondering about the prison option: is "stacking of prison terms" practised in Russia? So that five separate cases of an offence, or five victims/targets, can get you five times as long a jail term?

Offline Callie Del Noire

Re: Moving the Winter Olympics...
« Reply #263 on: August 27, 2013, 01:00:35 PM »
Thanks for providing the translation, Dashenka.

I was wondering about the prison option: is "stacking of prison terms" practised in Russia? So that five separate cases of an offence, or five victims/targets, can get you five times as long a jail term?

Long term I think none of Putin's rival went away for a long time for a dozen supposed tax offenses

Offline Dashenka

Re: Moving the Winter Olympics...
« Reply #264 on: August 27, 2013, 01:02:27 PM »
Thanks for providing the translation, Dashenka.

I was wondering about the prison option: is "stacking of prison terms" practised in Russia? So that five separate cases of an offence, or five victims/targets, can get you five times as long a jail term?

I've never heard of it. But that doesn't mean it doesn't happen. They might also split the sentence. Let's say if a man kisses a man. He can get punished for the kiss and for the propaganda. In theory.

Offline gaggedLouise

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Re: Moving the Winter Olympics...
« Reply #265 on: August 27, 2013, 01:06:29 PM »
Long term I think none of Putin's rival went away for a long time for a dozen supposed tax offenses

They have a tradition of long prison terms ever since the days of the Tsars. But I've never heard of anyone getting sentenced to, let's say, six hundred years in jail for fraud in sixty different bogus companies.´But my ignorance doesn't prove it could not exist.

EDIT: Thanks, Dashenka.
« Last Edit: August 27, 2013, 01:07:36 PM by gaggedLouise »

Offline Kythia

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Re: Moving the Winter Olympics...
« Reply #266 on: August 27, 2013, 01:07:04 PM »
It struck me as odd to see the fines given in monetary amounts in the body of the law.  There's a country that doesn't give a solitary fuck about inflation.

Offline meikle

Re: Moving the Winter Olympics...
« Reply #267 on: August 27, 2013, 02:06:05 PM »
Quote
2) makes nontraditional sexual relations attractive
every time i leave my house i'm making nontraditional sexual relations attractive

Offline Kythia

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Re: Moving the Winter Olympics...
« Reply #268 on: August 27, 2013, 02:11:32 PM »
every time i leave my house i'm making nontraditional sexual relations attractive
And now you've spread information about it.  You criminal.

Your face makes non-traditional sexual relations attrati...no, wait.  That doesn't work. Yo momma's so fat that she something something non-traditional sexual relations.

Note to self - Must avoid PROC whilst drinking.

Offline Oniya

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Re: Moving the Winter Olympics...
« Reply #269 on: August 27, 2013, 02:19:37 PM »
And now you've spread information about it.  You criminal.

Your face makes non-traditional sexual relations attrati...no, wait.  That doesn't work. Yo momma's so fat that she something something non-traditional sexual relations.

Note to self - Must avoid PROC whilst drinking.

Always a wise idea.  PWI is one of the leading causes of foot-in-mouth disease.  ;)

Offline Dashenka

Re: Moving the Winter Olympics...
« Reply #270 on: August 27, 2013, 02:34:03 PM »
every time i leave my house i'm making nontraditional sexual relations attractive

Don't leave your house then.

Thank you for this incredibly usefull point. It really helps the discussion. Wish I could communicate like you.

Offline Trieste

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Re: Moving the Winter Olympics...
« Reply #271 on: August 27, 2013, 02:46:36 PM »
Quite right. By keeping your disturbingly faggy face at home, you pay appropriate respect to those poor homophobic religious people. Good for you.

And I don't even have the excuse of having been drinking.

Offline gaggedLouise

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Re: Moving the Winter Olympics...
« Reply #272 on: August 27, 2013, 03:38:38 PM »
Always a wise idea.  PWI is one of the leading causes of foot-in-mouth disease.  ;)

Pro Wrestling Illustrated`, I presume.

Um...but wasn't that ear-in-mouth?

Offline meikle

Re: Moving the Winter Olympics...
« Reply #273 on: August 27, 2013, 03:40:19 PM »
Quite right. By keeping your disturbingly faggy face at home, you pay appropriate respect to those poor homophobic religious people. Good for you.

And I don't even have the excuse of having been drinking.

There's a kind of funky disconnect, isn't there?  You need to respect other people when they try to marginalize you and treat you as a second class citizen!  It's disrespectful to tell them what to do!

Isn't that pretty fucking hypocritical?  Isn't it disrespectful when they tell us what to do?

No, because they're the majority, so we should just be glad they're locking people in their houses instead of doing public executions, because it's Right as long as it makes the majority happy.

Offline Oniya

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Re: Moving the Winter Olympics...
« Reply #274 on: August 27, 2013, 03:41:29 PM »
Pro Wrestling Illustrated`, I presume.

Um...but wasn't that ear-in-mouth?

Posting While Intoxicated.  ;D  Like DWI only different.  (And Tyson v. Holyfield was a boxing match.  I probably shouldn't admit to knowing that...)
« Last Edit: August 27, 2013, 03:42:33 PM by Oniya »