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Author Topic: Bwa hahahahha  (Read 4544 times)

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Offline Rogue

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Re: Bwa hahahahha
« Reply #75 on: July 17, 2013, 01:02:58 PM »
Offers Miss Rogue a hug and smiles"I will take hugs from anyone..hugs are awsome."
*chuckles and gives hug*

And that's kind of important too, isn't it?  It doesn't matter how right you are right now.  It doesn't matter how truthful your insight into reality is.

When it's all said and done, you don't get points at the end for being the most right.  You don't lose points for being ~wrong~.  So maybe people should dedicate more effort to not being assholes in general; if someone is so devout in their atheism that they turn out to be a raging dick, they're really not any better than the religious dicks that they get so worked up over.

I think the issue is when people think that they do lose "points" for being wrong that they get so caught up in that they must be "right" else they're the ones losing the points, not the other way around. So people get up in arms about it, which is why I think most western religions are so upsetting. You don't see quite as much fighting or arguing (from what I know of the religions so please correct me if I'm wrong) amongst the eastern religions that I've studied until Western religions started to force their way in.

Offline Vanity Evolved

Re: Bwa hahahahha
« Reply #76 on: July 17, 2013, 01:13:58 PM »
And that's kind of important too, isn't it?  It doesn't matter how right you are right now.  It doesn't matter how truthful your insight into reality is.

When it's all said and done, you don't get points at the end for being the most right.  You don't lose points for being ~wrong~.  So maybe people should dedicate more effort to not being assholes in general; if someone is so devout in their atheism that they turn out to be a raging dick, they're really not any better than the religious dicks that they get so worked up over.

Nothing about being an atheist means you're right; there's plenty of atheists who believe the exact same stuff as Christians (See: The Reptilians. Except replace 'magic man in the sky' with 'a bunch of lizard aliens from another planet who live among us'). You also can, infact, lose points for being wrong. I'd rather someone, from the get go, understands that discrimination against say, homosexuals is wrong, than go through several years of attacking homosexuals because of what a fairytale told them, and -then- coming to the conclusion it was wrong after causing so many people misery.

It's also a bit of a weird way to put it. Atheism doesn't have a measure of 'devoutedness'. Either you believe there's a god, or you don't.

*chuckles and gives hug*

I think the issue is when people think that they do lose "points" for being wrong that they get so caught up in that they must be "right" else they're the ones losing the points, not the other way around. So people get up in arms about it, which is why I think most western religions are so upsetting. You don't see quite as much fighting or arguing (from what I know of the religions so please correct me if I'm wrong) amongst the eastern religions that I've studied until Western religions started to force their way in.

I'd tell that to the victims of the Dalli Llama's rather brutal theocratic caste system, Thuggie cultists, Islamic attitudes towards women, homosexuals and heretics and the Buddhist slaughter of Christians during the Meiji eras of Japan. :3 Every religion, like everyone else, has had their fair share of disagreements and fighting. If they didn't, you wouldn't have so many huge variations of minor splinter groups and cults.
« Last Edit: July 17, 2013, 01:16:51 PM by Vanity Evolved »

Offline meikle

Re: Bwa hahahahha
« Reply #77 on: July 17, 2013, 01:16:14 PM »
I think the issue is when people think that they do lose "points" for being wrong that they get so caught up in that they must be "right" else they're the ones losing the points, not the other way around. So people get up in arms about it, which is why I think most western religions are so upsetting. You don't see quite as much fighting or arguing (from what I know of the religions so please correct me if I'm wrong) amongst the eastern religions that I've studied until Western religions started to force their way in.

But it doesn't really make sense for someone whose belief by nature is that there is no scorekeeper, right?  Militant atheists are a joke; they are counterproductive (people who are put on the defensive dig their heels in, they don't come to see reason; atheists should know this because it's science, it's a proven reality of human psychology), and they are hypocritical in most cases, since mostly they get angry about how religion oppresses people and then they do their best to oppress people (in their case, people who don't Believe In Science.)

I think atheists who start to have faith in their own creed go beyond the pale; they buy into their own ethos so hard that it becomes its own religion, its own cult.

Quote
You also can, infact, lose points for being wrong.
There are no points.  When you die, you're dead, game over, no score keeper to tell you Did It Right.
« Last Edit: July 17, 2013, 01:17:16 PM by meikle »

Offline Vanity Evolved

Re: Bwa hahahahha
« Reply #78 on: July 17, 2013, 01:20:20 PM »
But it doesn't really make sense for someone whose belief by nature is that there is no scorekeeper, right?  Militant atheists are a joke; they are counterproductive (people who are put on the defensive dig their heels in, they don't come to see reason; atheists should know this because it's science, it's a proven reality of human psychology), and they are hypocritical in most cases, since mostly they get angry about how religion oppresses people and then they do their best to oppress people (in their case, people who don't Believe In Science.)

I think atheists who start to have faith in their own creed go beyond the pale; they buy into their own ethos so hard that it becomes its own religion, its own cult.
There are no points.  When you die, you're dead, game over, no score keeper to tell you Did It Right.

It doesn't take faith to not believe in a god; atheism is the baseline, not a form of religion. I've yet to see atheists who 'oppress' others. I've seen them point out that no, it's complete bullshit for Christian politicians to deny homosexuals marriage based on 'what our book tells us'. There's a difference between oppression, and telling people that they can't force their beliefs onto others. You're free to believe whatever you want, but just because -you- believe in a magic fairytale which hates men for having buttsex with each other, doesn't mean you get to stop the rest of the world from their right to marry someone they love. I also don't feel you have the right to torture your child with the idea that they're going to be punished for all eternity for doing things common to teenagers, such as sex out of wedlock or being homosexual. I don't care what people believe, until their beliefs begin to impact other people, which is when I start to take offense.

Offline meikle

Re: Bwa hahahahha
« Reply #79 on: July 17, 2013, 01:23:54 PM »
Do you have any points beyond "Some Christians hate gay people!"?  Because it's getting to be a really tired point.

Also, I'm curious why it's okay for atheists to be so virulent and rude and hateful in the discussion boards.  I thought these forums were supposed to be ... welcoming?  It's kind of ridiculous.

I'm an atheist, too, you know, just not the terrible sort.

Quote
I don't care what people believe, until their beliefs begin to impact other people, which is when I start to take offense.

You are kind of a monumental hypocrite, tl;dr.

Offline Rogue

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Re: Bwa hahahahha
« Reply #80 on: July 17, 2013, 01:24:22 PM »
Nothing about being an atheist means you're right; there's plenty of atheists who believe the exact same stuff as Christians (See: The Reptilians. Except replace 'magic man in the sky' with 'a bunch of lizard aliens from another planet who live among us'). You also can, infact, lose points for being wrong. I'd rather someone, from the get go, understands that discrimination against say, homosexuals is wrong, than go through several years of attacking homosexuals because of what a fairytale told them, and -then- coming to the conclusion it was wrong after causing so many people misery.

It's also a bit of a weird way to put it. Atheism doesn't have a measure of 'devoutedness'. Either you believe there's a god, or you don't.

That is called being a dick. I suppose we could say that they lead a less satisfying life because of it and miss out on meeting and knowing a lot of cool people. I suppose you can call that losing points. But last I checked, there was no tally.

... I also kind of believe that the Reptilians may have something to do with Dr Who based on these guys. While they're not technically aliens, they still have super advanced technology that could be considered alien... most likely a farce, much like pastafarians...

It doesn't take faith to not believe in a god; atheism is the baseline, not a form of religion. I've yet to see atheists who 'oppress' others. I've seen them point out that no, it's complete bullshit for Christian politicians to deny homosexuals marriage based on 'what our book tells us'. There's a difference between oppression, and telling people that they can't force their beliefs onto others. You're free to believe whatever you want, but just because -you- believe in a magic fairytale which hates men for having buttsex with each other, doesn't mean you get to stop the rest of the world from their right to marry someone they love. I also don't feel you have the right to torture your child with the idea that they're going to be punished for all eternity for doing things common to teenagers, such as sex out of wedlock or being homosexual. I don't care what people believe, until their beliefs begin to impact other people, which is when I start to take offense.

There are atheists who deny people the right to have a religious view and look down upon religious people a second class citizens. This I believe is what he was referring to.

But it doesn't really make sense for someone whose belief by nature is that there is no scorekeeper, right?  Militant atheists are a joke; they are counterproductive (people who are put on the defensive dig their heels in, they don't come to see reason; atheists should know this because it's science, it's a proven reality of human psychology), and they are hypocritical in most cases, since mostly they get angry about how religion oppresses people and then they do their best to oppress people (in their case, people who don't Believe In Science.)

I think atheists who start to have faith in their own creed go beyond the pale; they buy into their own ethos so hard that it becomes its own religion, its own cult.
There are no points.  When you die, you're dead, game over, no score keeper to tell you Did It Right.

I can't say more than I agree.

Offline Pumpkin Seeds

Re: Bwa hahahahha
« Reply #81 on: July 17, 2013, 01:26:50 PM »
Takes faith to believe in nothing strongly enough to tell everyone else they are wrong with the sort of presumption that you utilize Vanity.  Takes faith to believe somehow that you know a Truth that you believe everyone else should accept because what you know to be true is rational and right, while their truth is irrational and made up.  Your zealotry on these forums is certainly a match for the most obnoxious Christian Iíve ever meet.
« Last Edit: July 17, 2013, 01:28:18 PM by Pumpkin Seeds »

Offline Ephiral

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Re: Bwa hahahahha
« Reply #82 on: July 17, 2013, 01:52:31 PM »
You... know nothing about the men's goals. How can you already judge a person when you don't even know why they might choose a trail. You know nothing about them.

The phrase "the journey is more important then the destination" is utterly lost on you. You didn't even take the time to consider it. It doesn't matter how they reached their goals.
The goal was explicitly stated in the first sentence of the post I was responding to:
Three men want to travel from Georgia to Maine.
Now, if the goal was to meet interesting people, see some new territory, and discover something about yourself? That's perfectly fine. Done it myself. The difference is that that was my goal. If your goal is to get from A to B, get from A to B as quickly and efficiently as possible and then spend the time and effort you've saved doing other things you care about. If your goal is to discover yourself, then spend your time and effort there. Conflating the two only leads you to waste both time and energy.

But hey, thanks for making a snap decision about my entire personality and worldview because I dared to say that the privileged perspective is privileged. Obviously I've got no idea how anything could have secondary or unexpected benefits, or learned a life lesson in an unlikely place, and I'm absolutely closed to new experiences. You can clearly tell because I presented a different view in a short forum post.

Offline Avis habilis

Re: Bwa hahahahha
« Reply #83 on: July 17, 2013, 01:53:21 PM »
This entire thread is turning into one big ourobouros of self-congratulatory awfulness. Stop insulting one another, start discussing ideas, or leave the thread. All of you.

Offline Vanity Evolved

Re: Bwa hahahahha
« Reply #84 on: July 17, 2013, 02:14:54 PM »
Takes faith to believe in nothing strongly enough to tell everyone else they are wrong with the sort of presumption that you utilize Vanity.  Takes faith to believe somehow that you know a Truth that you believe everyone else should accept because what you know to be true is rational and right, while their truth is irrational and made up.  Your zealotry on these forums is certainly a match for the most obnoxious Christian Iíve ever meet.

You're saying it takes more 'faith' to believe that sunflowers are yellow, than it does to believe in Hogwarts? Do you believe in Hogwarts? If so, why not?

Do you have any points beyond "Some Christians hate gay people!"?  Because it's getting to be a really tired point.

Also, I'm curious why it's okay for atheists to be so virulent and rude and hateful in the discussion boards.  I thought these forums were supposed to be ... welcoming?  It's kind of ridiculous.

I'm an atheist, too, you know, just not the terrible sort.

You are kind of a monumental hypocrite, tl;dr.

Well, admittedly, this is the Politics and Religious discussion boards - topics which tend to bring out the fire in people. It's not specifically about gay rights, but it's one of the relevant and easy to point to examples at the moment, especially with England discussing the potential right for homosexuals to marry. It's a prime example of religious belief inhibiting the rights of others. I'm not sure how I'm being a hypocrite, but. Feel free to say. It's not so much that the atheism on boards such as this is 'rude and hateful', it's more the fact religion is put on a pedestal where it's beyond reproach. If you say you believe in Spiderman, people think you're mad. If you say you believe in a magic man in the sky who can send you to a Helldungeon after you die, that's perfectly valid. And to question this or the morality of teaching your children that they're constantly being judged and possibly sent to Hell if they're not subserviant to your imaginary friend is apparently 'rude' or 'hateful'.

That is called being a dick. I suppose we could say that they lead a less satisfying life because of it and miss out on meeting and knowing a lot of cool people. I suppose you can call that losing points. But last I checked, there was no tally.

... I also kind of believe that the Reptilians may have something to do with Dr Who based on these guys. While they're not technically aliens, they still have super advanced technology that could be considered alien... most likely a farce, much like pastafarians...

There are atheists who deny people the right to have a religious view and look down upon religious people a second class citizens. This I believe is what he was referring to.

I can't say more than I agree.

No, there are people who legitimately believe in reptile aliens from another galaxy who created the human race. And yes, there are atheists who want to deny people a religious view. It's funny how a group of people who only share one trait, a lack of a belief in a divine being, arn't exact copies of each other in their beliefs and ideas on morality, eh?

This entire thread is turning into one big ourobouros of self-congratulatory awfulness. Stop insulting one another, start discussing ideas, or leave the thread. All of you.

Yeah, it is starting to become a perpetual hackle raising machine by this point.

Offline Rogue

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Re: Bwa hahahahha
« Reply #85 on: July 17, 2013, 02:25:19 PM »
No, there are people who legitimately believe in reptile aliens from another galaxy who created the human race. And yes, there are atheists who want to deny people a religious view. It's funny how a group of people who only share one trait, a lack of a belief in a divine being, arn't exact copies of each other in their beliefs and ideas on morality, eh?

I wasn't trying to be dismissive of the idea, just curious if that had been a possibility. Many atheist churches created post internet creation seems to be created with the original intent to be a farce. I know there's an atheistic religion that came from I believe India, holding no belief in a deity whats so ever. However, I'd have to see if I still have notes from that class to figure out which religion it was.

Also, I know many different kinds of atheists, and I would not presume to know which kind you are. I don't know you personally. I've met atheists who have a higher moral caliber then many people and would not think to force it on anyone. I know atheists who can calmly debate religion and seek to understand it. I know an atheist who really does look down on anyone who is religious or goes to church. All of these are from real life experiences, not from E and I meant to portray my view from that stand point.

I wasn't trying to attack you or your beliefs and I apologize if I came off in such a manner.

Offline Ephiral

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Re: Bwa hahahahha
« Reply #86 on: July 17, 2013, 02:28:12 PM »
There are atheists who deny people the right to have a religious view and look down upon religious people a second class citizens. This I believe is what he was referring to.
Nonetheless, this is wrong. The religious, as a class, are not second-class citizens and are not oppressed in... well, any nation I can think of. Can you name a single law which was ever passed (or even proposed) anywhere explicitly because "this is an atheist nation!" to the detriment of believers? Anybody who lost a shot at political office because their faith was too strong? (There are those who lost because they were of the wrong faith, but that is a separate issue.) Anywhere it's considered acceptable to casually destroy the property and signage of religion, and the police will refuse to do anything about it? Anywhere the religious are explicitly denied equal public voice with the faithless? Any inverse equivalent to the fiasco that gave us Rock Beyond Belief? Anywhere the religious, as a category, are automatically and intrinsically deemed untrustworthy by a majority of the populace?

Yes, some atheists look down their noses at religious people. Yes, some atheists are total assholes. This is not the same as oppression or second-class citizenship, and it is frankly insulting to say it is.

Offline TaintedAndDelish

Re: Bwa hahahahha
« Reply #87 on: July 17, 2013, 02:28:51 PM »
I think she was trying to say, don't assume one is better than the other because we all get to the same place at the end. (ie: Dead)

If you are suggesting ( and perhaps you were not ) that we ( individuals, the earth, and perhaps even our universe ) will eventually die and therefore nothing we do really matters in the end, then I have to disagree. Yes, its reasonable to believe that in the end we will be recycled into the earth and cosmos, that our lights will go out and nothing will matter to the individual, but this logic negates everything we could possibly do. This argument could be used to justify anything.

Offline Oniya

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Re: Bwa hahahahha
« Reply #88 on: July 17, 2013, 02:40:55 PM »
The destination is moot.  The means of getting there may be longer for some, and may have more tribulations or more rewards, but in the end, no one travels any road but their own. 

Offline Rogue

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Re: Bwa hahahahha
« Reply #89 on: July 17, 2013, 02:41:31 PM »
Nonetheless, this is wrong. The religious, as a class, are not second-class citizens and are not oppressed in... well, any nation I can think of. Can you name a single law which was ever passed (or even proposed) anywhere explicitly because "this is an atheist nation!" to the detriment of believers? Anybody who lost a shot at political office because their faith was too strong? (There are those who lost because they were of the wrong faith, but that is a separate issue.) Anywhere it's considered acceptable to casually destroy the property and signage of religion, and the police will refuse to do anything about it? Anywhere the religious are explicitly denied equal public voice with the faithless? Any inverse equivalent to the fiasco that gave us Rock Beyond Belief? Anywhere the religious, as a category, are automatically and intrinsically deemed untrustworthy by a majority of the populace?

Yes, some atheists look down their noses at religious people. Yes, some atheists are total assholes. This is not the same as oppression or second-class citizenship, and it is frankly insulting to say it is.

I, once again apologize as I wasn't meaning to insult anyone. And I know, very much so, how religion has been an oppressing force. However, to say that no country has gone Atheist and been oppressed is to miss one of the dictators who killed almost if not more than the holocaust. Communism states banned religion and murdered because of it. Joseph Stalin was a dictator and ruled over this. People caught being religious in their homes were killed or sent to Siberia. I will source myself if necessary, but there has been a precedent where if anyone believes they are right strongly enough then they hold the capacity to oppress those who don't believe the same way.

If you are suggesting ( and perhaps you were not ) that we ( individuals, the earth, and perhaps even our universe ) will eventually die and therefore nothing we do really matters in the end, then I have to disagree. Yes, its reasonable to believe that in the end we will be recycled into the earth and cosmos, that our lights will go out and nothing will matter to the individual, but this logic negates everything we could possibly do. This argument could be used to justify anything.

I wasn't suggesting that and was merely being simplistic in my statement. Yes, in the short term of things what we say and do with our lives matters. Meeting someone or smiling at someone can save another life. One person could inspire an entire generation of people to do great things.

On the converse side of that, in the grand scheme of things, assuming the calculations on the age of the earth is correct, we are but a blip, even less than that as individuals. We could destroy this Earth, but should we (meaning all humans) leave it now, everything would revert back to how it was. The history channel did quite a piece on this way of thinking. Life after People. It's all about how big you want to think. I prefer the first in my day to day simply because this one, thinking in the long scheme of things, is frankly way too depressing for me to deal with.

Offline Cyrano Johnson

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Re: Bwa hahahahha
« Reply #90 on: July 17, 2013, 02:46:00 PM »
Can you name a single law which was ever passed (or even proposed) anywhere explicitly because "this is an atheist nation!" to the detriment of believers?

I wish people wouldn't do this, because yes, there have been examples of such nations and they're not really the kind of thing you want to bring up. The communist bloc during much of the 20c did in fact suppress religion as a matter of doctrinaire atheism -- no I am not equating atheism with communism but yes, they were real examples of repression of religion using atheism as a justification -- and China's suppression of the Falun Gong and its occupation of Tibet have been justified along similar lines as campaigns against religious "feudalism." People should really not ask "has there ever been an example of atheist repression" as if it's a purely rhetorical question. We as atheists should just not ever do that.

Offline TaintedAndDelish

Re: Bwa hahahahha
« Reply #91 on: July 17, 2013, 02:46:52 PM »
On the converse side of that, in the grand scheme of things, assuming the calculations on the age of the earth is correct, we are but a blip, even less than that as individuals. We could destroy this Earth, but should we (meaning all humans) leave it now, everything would revert back to how it was. The history channel did quite a piece on this way of thinking. Life after People. It's all about how big you want to think. I prefer the first in my day to day simply because this one, thinking in the long scheme of things, is frankly way too depressing for me to deal with.

Reminds me or Carl Sagan's "Pale Blue Dot". I think this is the clip itself. He gives some nice insight and perspective on this. ( theme is sort of about not being a dick and about how little we really matter in comparison to the universe )
Pale Blue Dot - Carl Sagan [Original]

Offline Beguile's Mistress

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Re: Bwa hahahahha
« Reply #92 on: July 17, 2013, 02:47:44 PM »
It has been requested on more than one occasion that your remarks be objective and not personal. 

Should you not be able to discuss things in that manner, stating you own opinion and NOT calling out others because they have a different one, this thread will be locked and you'll have no one to blame but yourself.

Religion and politics are hot button issues but intelligence outweights impulse in most cases.  We're looking for some of that here.

Offline Ephiral

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Re: Bwa hahahahha
« Reply #93 on: July 17, 2013, 02:54:13 PM »
I, once again apologize as I wasn't meaning to insult anyone. And I know, very much so, how religion has been an oppressing force. However, to say that no country has gone Atheist and been oppressed is to miss one of the dictators who killed almost if not more than the holocaust. Communism states banned religion and murdered because of it. Joseph Stalin was a dictator and ruled over this. People caught being religious in their homes were killed or sent to Siberia. I will source myself if necessary, but there has been a precedent where if anyone believes they are right strongly enough then they hold the capacity to oppress those who don't believe the same way.
First: I was speaking of Meikle's statement, not yours. You've been nothing but gracious.

Second: I can't believe the Stalin counterpoint slipped my mind. Point to you, though I'll note that that's absolutely the exception, not the rule.

Third: Your premise is good; the conclusion is faulty. The underclass cannot oppress the dominant class, no matter how vehement their belief. As it stands in, say, the modern USA, it is not possible for atheists to oppress believers, because atheists do not have the power at their disposal to do so. Perfect belief is misguided, but it does not make institutional power materialize out of thin air.

I wish people wouldn't do this, because yes, there have been examples of such nations and they're not really the kind of thing you want to bring up. The communist bloc during much of the 20c did in fact suppress religion as a matter of doctrinaire atheism -- no I am not equating atheism with communism but yes, they were real examples of repression of religion using atheism as a justification -- and China's suppression of the Falun Gong and its occupation of Tibet have been justified along similar lines as campaigns against religious "feudalism." People should really not ask "has there ever been an example of atheist repression" as if it's a purely rhetorical question. We as atheists should just not ever do that.
Yes, you're absolutely right. I was completely wrong in doing so - though it's important to note that, in the case of China, they seem to be picking and choosing which ones they're targeting, indicating that it's not about atheism per se, but about justifying the party's actions and directing loyalties to them. (This was the actual goal in Russia as well, but I'll take heavyhanded repression of religion as a whole, ostensibly because "religion is bad", as fitting the question I asked.)

Offline Cyrano Johnson

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Re: Bwa hahahahha
« Reply #94 on: July 17, 2013, 03:06:56 PM »
it's important to note that, in the case of China, they seem to be picking and choosing which ones they're targeting, indicating that it's not about atheism per se, but about justifying the party's actions and directing loyalties to them.

I completely agree. By the same token I think it's important to keep this same kind of factor in mind with "religious" oppression and repression, too; oftentimes religion is simply the instrument of an unrelated goal.

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Re: Bwa hahahahha
« Reply #95 on: July 17, 2013, 03:12:47 PM »
I completely agree. By the same token I think it's important to keep this same kind of factor in mind with "religious" oppression and repression, too; oftentimes religion is simply the instrument of an unrelated goal.
The difference is that not all of the religious are an underclass in China - just the specific subsets that tend to dissent on political matters. That's what separates it from Russia, or from the Religious Right in America. It doesn't matter where the believers in Russia or the nonbelievers in the US stand - they could toe the party line, but their faith or lack thereof damns them.

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Re: Bwa hahahahha
« Reply #96 on: July 17, 2013, 03:15:39 PM »
First: I was speaking of Meikle's statement, not yours. You've been nothing but gracious.

Second: I can't believe the Stalin counterpoint slipped my mind. Point to you, though I'll note that that's absolutely the exception, not the rule.

Third: Your premise is good; the conclusion is faulty. The underclass cannot oppress the dominant class, no matter how vehement their belief. As it stands in, say, the modern USA, it is not possible for atheists to oppress believers, because atheists do not have the power at their disposal to do so. Perfect belief is misguided, but it does not make institutional power materialize out of thin air.

You are correct. The underclass cannot oppress the dominant class. And as it stand in the US currently it would not be possible for Atheists to oppress believers, simply because they do have control of the government and too many people are religious.

I was merely trying, and failing, to state that strong enough belief can attempt to force change. According to what I found, unfortunately due to a Wiki article, 1.4 million people fully claim to be Atheist. Now 1.4 million is a lot of people. That's as large as the US military's active service. We're not even including those who are Agnostic and would prefer Atheist rule to Christian. Now, if every single of those Atheists believed strongly that they were being oppressed and had the will and desire to oppress those who've oppressed them? It would technically be possible via a military coup if they were able to illegally receive supplies (say from one of the many countries that would enjoy seeing the US in even greater turmoil) to match those of the Military's ground forces. The AirForce and Navy would be the next to be taken and well... It could happen.

Now, is this going to happen to a government where many believe so strongly that we can change things peacefully? Probably not. Is it technically possible, I think so.

Institutional power never appears out of thin air, and I'd never think to put that as a thought process, but there is the potential for it to grow into one.

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Re: Bwa hahahahha
« Reply #97 on: July 17, 2013, 03:19:25 PM »
I wasn't trying to be dismissive of the idea, just curious if that had been a possibility. Many atheist churches created post internet creation seems to be created with the original intent to be a farce. I know there's an atheistic religion that came from I believe India, holding no belief in a deity whats so ever. However, I'd have to see if I still have notes from that class to figure out which religion it was.

Also, I know many different kinds of atheists, and I would not presume to know which kind you are. I don't know you personally. I've met atheists who have a higher moral caliber then many people and would not think to force it on anyone. I know atheists who can calmly debate religion and seek to understand it. I know an atheist who really does look down on anyone who is religious or goes to church. All of these are from real life experiences, not from E and I meant to portray my view from that stand point.

I wasn't trying to attack you or your beliefs and I apologize if I came off in such a manner.

Don't worry, didn't mean to sound snappy :3 Just this chat has got a bit heated, so the way I've been typing may have come across as being a bit harsh myself. Sorry. But yeah, it is possible to have a religion which is itself atheist (Reptilians, Realians, whatever they're called. Quite a few sects of Buddhism qualify as atheist, etc.). But yeah, you do get people who're largely quite harsh on the religious. But even then, that isn't the same as 'oppression'. Remember, the religious are the majority in most countries, which quite ironically makes the atheist community the oppressed (as Ephrial pointed out, how many times have you seen religious people denied marriage because they're Christian? How many people do you see denied being into office for being too Christian?). But by this point, I'm not sure what the discussion in this thread has gone to...

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Re: Bwa hahahahha
« Reply #98 on: July 17, 2013, 03:23:12 PM »
I was merely trying, and failing, to state that strong enough belief can attempt to force change. According to what I found, unfortunately due to a Wiki article, 1.4 million people fully claim to be Atheist. Now 1.4 million is a lot of people. That's as large as the US military's active service. We're not even including those who are Agnostic and would prefer Atheist rule to Christian. Now, if every single of those Atheists believed strongly that they were being oppressed and had the will and desire to oppress those who've oppressed them? It would technically be possible via a military coup if they were able to illegally receive supplies (say from one of the many countries that would enjoy seeing the US in even greater turmoil) to match those of the Military's ground forces. The AirForce and Navy would be the next to be taken and well... It could happen.
I think you'd have an extremely hard time finding another nation, or coalition of nations, willing to throw even a fraction of the US's military budget at training and arming a force of foreign insurgents. Even if you could, they wouldn't have the infrastructure and strategic capabilities of the US military - which is strongly institituionally Christian. On top of this, 1.4 million seems like a lot of people - hell, let's crank it higher and count the full hundred million who do not actively profess a belief in any god. That still leaves them outarmed and outnumbered 2:1 by the other side, and this is assuming every single nonbeliever is the sort of militant who thinks that force of arms is an acceptable way to gain power that will in no way destabilize the nation for generations.

No, it's not really possible. Far more likely would be a reversal of the current political situation, through peaceful political process - but even then you'll find a number of atheists who would stand firm against it. (I'd like to think that this is the majority, but I have zero hard data to corroborate, and I know for a fact my sample is heavily biased - I tend not to associate with bigots of any stripe if I can help it.) There are entire organizations of them, even now. That sort of thing is what A+ is all about.

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Re: Bwa hahahahha
« Reply #99 on: July 17, 2013, 03:35:51 PM »
I think you'd have an extremely hard time finding another nation, or coalition of nations, willing to throw even a fraction of the US's military budget at training and arming a force of foreign insurgents. Even if you could, they wouldn't have the infrastructure and strategic capabilities of the US military - which is strongly institituionally Christian. On top of this, 1.4 million seems like a lot of people - hell, let's crank it higher and count the full hundred million who do not actively profess a belief in any god. That still leaves them outarmed and outnumbered 2:1 by the other side, and this is assuming every single nonbeliever is the sort of militant who thinks that force of arms is an acceptable way to gain power that will in no way destabilize the nation for generations.

No, it's not really possible. Far more likely would be a reversal of the current political situation, through peaceful political process - but even then you'll find a number of atheists who would stand firm against it. (I'd like to think that this is the majority, but I have zero hard data to corroborate, and I know for a fact my sample is heavily biased - I tend not to associate with bigots of any stripe if I can help it.) There are entire organizations of them, even now. That sort of thing is what A+ is all about.

I honestly didn't think about the money they'd have to spare for such an undertaking in comparison... And even though I know that the 1.4 mil isn't a lot of people, I merely was comparing it to our current standing military. This isn't even considering those in the military who consider themselves Atheist. I also was considering extreme circumstances, which are not occurring and will likely never occur, merely entertaining the possibility and potential based purely on the numbers I found.

I would like to agree with you on the hope that such a thing would never occur though. Quite honestly, oppression, be it in your favor or against it, is never a good thing and always affects everyone.