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Author Topic: Bwa hahahahha  (Read 4539 times)

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Offline Vanity Evolved

Re: Bwa hahahahha
« Reply #50 on: July 16, 2013, 07:48:57 PM »
Then why participate in their conversation if you believe there is no rational discourse to be had?  If you believe that their discussion has no merit, does not involve your own beliefs and has nothing pertaining to you or affecting you then participation on your part is meant to cause drama and be disruptive.  People discuss comic book heroes with scientific context, research and are fully engrossed in their discussions with the same fervor as one would debate religion.  If I do not believe there is rational conversation to be had then I simply do not participate. 

Does it matter if the people having the conversation about the Flash or about Jesus care if their concepts or ideas are real?

I can only speak for myself, but I care if what I believe is real; at least, I hope my concept that rape is a horrid thing is wrong is real. Once again, the difference here is that one is accepted as being fiction, while one isn't; if someone taught their kid that The Flash made a woman get raped was a good thing, as the Bible teaches, I'd be just as offended. People are free to believe what they want, but when people begin teaching their children or try to force laws based on their beliefs which 'I don't care if it's not real, I believe it' which other people have to abide by, I get largely offended. I'm sure a good majority of the GLBT know exactly how it feels to have your rights stamped on because of something a two thousand fairy tale says.

Offline Pumpkin Seeds

Re: Bwa hahahahha
« Reply #51 on: July 16, 2013, 07:53:22 PM »
 Vanity, I am not even sure where you are going with this discussion now.  If you aren’t going to remain on topic or even read what you are supposedly responding to and addressing then I see no further point in speaking with you.  To be honest now that Sabby has withdrawn from the conversation your role is pretty much done anyway.

Offline Vanity Evolved

Re: Bwa hahahahha
« Reply #52 on: July 16, 2013, 07:57:25 PM »
Vanity, I am not even sure where you are going with this discussion now.  If you aren’t going to remain on topic or even read what you are supposedly responding to and addressing then I see no further point in speaking with you.  To be honest now that Sabby has withdrawn from the conversation your role is pretty much done anyway.

You asked why it matters if a concept is real or not. I answered. Please don't ask a question if you don't want me to answer it, and then act as if I'm going off-topic. I'd also ask that you don't act as I can be just 'brushed off' as if my opinions are somehow inferior to yours, thank you. But do feel free to stop speaking to me. You've already tried to make out Sabs to be someone he isn't in some attempt to personally attack him. Regardless, I only popped by to add my two cents, so I'll be bowing out of this discussion, also.

Offline Pumpkin Seeds

Re: Bwa hahahahha
« Reply #53 on: July 16, 2013, 08:05:06 PM »
But I did not ask why it would matter if a concept was real or not, I asked why participate in a discussion you feel has no merit.  Other than being disruptive there is nothing you can add to the conversation or take away.  So you did not answer the question, merely changed the question for an answer you felt more comfortable in giving and then manipulated into a stance for gay rights.

As for Sabby, I was merely pointing out to him as I am to you.  If you do not feel that rational discussion is possible then your participation is only about drama and ridicule. 

Online Blythe

Re: Bwa hahahahha
« Reply #54 on: July 16, 2013, 10:30:36 PM »
I can only speak for myself, but I care if what I believe is real; at least, I hope my concept that rape is a horrid thing is wrong is real. Once again, the difference here is that one is accepted as being fiction, while one isn't; if someone taught their kid that The Flash made a woman get raped was a good thing, as the Bible teaches, I'd be just as offended. People are free to believe what they want, but when people begin teaching their children or try to force laws based on their beliefs which 'I don't care if it's not real, I believe it' which other people have to abide by, I get largely offended. I'm sure a good majority of the GLBT know exactly how it feels to have your rights stamped on because of something a two thousand fairy tale says.

There is a line of civility that I think gets crossed in discussions about religion. I'm an atheist, and there is a difference between saying "You cannot rationally prove religious beliefs" and saying religion is a "two thousand year old fairy tale." One of those phrases is appropriate. One of those phrases isn't and is insulting.

Also, you're guilty of a logical fallacy here, Vanity Evolved.

Look at this: Definition of belief

A "belief" is not necessarily just a religious conviction. It can also be a conviction grounded in secular views (like your belief that rape is wrong), by the dictionary definition of the term. So you cannot state that you want others to acknowledge what you believe is real while simultaneously disparaging someone else's belief in something they believe is real  (that you don't believe in) without treading the waters of hypocrisy.
« Last Edit: July 16, 2013, 10:32:19 PM by Blythe »

Offline Cyrano Johnson

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Re: Bwa hahahahha
« Reply #55 on: July 16, 2013, 11:56:34 PM »
It's not that I don't wish to have the discussion, it's that I don't believe the discussion can be had at all. . . Apologetics is not about Religion as a phenomena, it's, as I've already put it, the scientific process working in reverse. It's justification for belief, forming arguments to support a position that has already been adopted. This is the exact opposite of science, which is following the evidence to the answer.

Does that make sense?

It's hugely oversimplistic and appallingly arrogant, actually. If Apologetics was merely the process of science in reverse, science could never have emerged from the Christian theological tradition. Yet it did, and it emerged precisely as apologetics. A very large part of the history of logic is the history of theology. A very large part of the history of modern Western science emerged from the attempts of Christian, Jewish and Islamic theologians and philosophers to prove that God's creation was worthy of systematic and scientific study.

This process was not without conflict. The dynamics of that conflict are worthy of discussion. What is not worthy is false portrayals of history that allege that that process never happened. What is not worthy is eccentric definitions of "faith" that have relatively little to do with how many actual persons of faith use the term. If that's what you're doing, you're not declining to participate in a futile sector of the debate: you're declining to participate, at least in any honest way, in any part of the debate.

Offline Vanity Evolved

Re: Bwa hahahahha
« Reply #56 on: July 17, 2013, 02:30:19 AM »
There is a line of civility that I think gets crossed in discussions about religion. I'm an atheist, and there is a difference between saying "You cannot rationally prove religious beliefs" and saying religion is a "two thousand year old fairy tale." One of those phrases is appropriate. One of those phrases isn't and is insulting.

Also, you're guilty of a logical fallacy here, Vanity Evolved.

Look at this: Definition of belief

A "belief" is not necessarily just a religious conviction. It can also be a conviction grounded in secular views (like your belief that rape is wrong), by the dictionary definition of the term. So you cannot state that you want others to acknowledge what you believe is real while simultaneously disparaging someone else's belief in something they believe is real  (that you don't believe in) without treading the waters of hypocrisy.

I am aware of what belief means; like Sabs, I'm rather inclinded to the definition that belief and faith are two seperate things. You believe something based on evidence, and have faith in something which you do not have evidence for.

I was referring to Christianity as a two-thousand year old fairy tale, because that is quite literally what it is. Why is the Brother's Grimm different from the Bible? They're both about completely fantastic things which have no proof, and I believe in a world wide flood, a zombie messiah and a big man in the sky being angry because people made a giant tower to go see him in the exact same way I treat someone growing a magical beanstalk to go steal a goose from a giant. The fact I'm somewhat rude about it doesn't change that.

Offline TaintedAndDelish

Re: Bwa hahahahha
« Reply #57 on: July 17, 2013, 03:42:44 AM »
Its very hard to be polite when having an intelligent conversation with someone who fails to separate fiction from reality. Yes, its rude to call them idiots or to very bluntly strip them of their delusions.

I think what is hard about being polite here is that when you have a firm grasp on reality and someone comes along asserting a clearly erroneous or unfounded belief as if its absolute truth, its very distressing. Its kind of like being gaslighted by someone, if that makes sense. For me at least, I feel a deep need to stand up and correct what has been said. In all fairness, I can understand how a mislead religious person might feel the same exact way.

« Last Edit: July 17, 2013, 03:43:59 AM by TaintedAndDelish »

Offline Pumpkin Seeds

Re: Bwa hahahahha
« Reply #58 on: July 17, 2013, 04:34:51 AM »
This seems to be a running theme that “religious cannot be rational” but then people feel compelled to be irrational toward them.  So once more the question is simply why participate in the discussion?  If you are incapable of having an intelligent conversation with someone religious or engage in a conversation with someone about their beliefs without being rude and disrespectful, then perhaps religious debate and philosophical discussion is not a forte you should pursue.
« Last Edit: July 17, 2013, 04:39:22 AM by Pumpkin Seeds »

Offline meikle

Re: Bwa hahahahha
« Reply #59 on: July 17, 2013, 05:09:45 AM »
You would think that forsaking religion would lead people to be less self-righteous.  Yet...

Offline TaintedAndDelish

Re: Bwa hahahahha
« Reply #60 on: July 17, 2013, 05:23:23 AM »
This seems to be a running theme that “religious cannot be rational” but then people feel compelled to be irrational toward them.

If a religion needs to portray fiction (which is not true) as truth in order to be considered a religion, then I'm afraid that I don't see how that religion can be rational. That's their fault, not mine. How is pointing out their untruth being irrational?  ( Unless you mean all the emotional bitching and hand wringing/flapping that we sometimes do xD )

So once more the question is simply why participate in the discussion? 

Because it pains me to see people so terribly mislead. This is probably more my own personal issue, but that's why. For reasons that I'm not sure I fully understand, I care.

If you are incapable of having an intelligent conversation with someone religious or engage in a conversation with someone about their beliefs without being rude and disrespectful, then perhaps religious debate and philosophical discussion is not a forte you should pursue.

We should not avoid truth just because it does not feel good when we hear it. Sometimes it really sucks to learn that what you believe is false or unsupported, but in the long run, its better to have the truth as the bad taste that it may leave is just temporary.



Offline meikle

Re: Bwa hahahahha
« Reply #61 on: July 17, 2013, 05:34:28 AM »
We should not avoid truth just because it does not feel good when we hear it. Sometimes it really sucks to learn that what you believe is false or unsupported, but in the long run, its better to have the truth as the bad taste that it may leave is just temporary.
Can you prove this, or is it just your belief?  Sounds like faith to me.

Do you think you should force your beliefs on others?

Offline TaintedAndDelish

Re: Bwa hahahahha
« Reply #62 on: July 17, 2013, 05:53:17 AM »
I'm not forcing my beliefs any more than pumpkin seeds is forcing her's. You don't need to believe me or agree with me. We are adults and are capable of evaluating one another's beliefs, truths, ideologies and coming to our own conclusions. I am fallible and could be quite wrong - in which case, I hope that such discussions will lead me to the truth - even if I don't like how it feels or tastes.

As for my belief that its better to have truth than to have falsehoods? I supposed it depends on how you define "better".  If you believe that living as a semi-nude hunter/gatherer in a non-developed country while the rest of the world is thousands of years ahead of you is *better*, then yes, I suppose its better to avoid truth at all costs. That is not my definition of better, therefore, yes, its better to have truth.

In all fairness, Meikle, you made a good point.

Offline Pumpkin Seeds

Re: Bwa hahahahha
« Reply #63 on: July 17, 2013, 06:06:11 AM »
So essentially you are bringing the truth to the mislead.  You have taken it upon yourself to inform this misbegotten rabble and remove the veil from their eyes.  They are being misled by their friends and the world and you will go, tell them their falsehood and make them see the Truth.  Noble of you, Preacher.  The presumption of owning the Truth is a great arrogance, one that many atheists find fault amongst the various religious for claiming.  The thought that you can change someone’s mind by disrespecting their beliefs and their upbringing is a false one as well, another that many atheists complain the various religious groups hold. 

If you seek to change the mind of someone, then best consider first their reason for holding their beliefs and then respecting them as human beings that hold rational opinions and are able to formulate reason thoughts.  From there present your own rational reasons and discuss.  Simply stating that someone cannot be rational because of their culture, belief system or upbringing starts the discussion on a bad note that will likely not improve.

Offline Vanity Evolved

Re: Bwa hahahahha
« Reply #64 on: July 17, 2013, 06:20:08 AM »
So essentially you are bringing the truth to the mislead.  You have taken it upon yourself to inform this misbegotten rabble and remove the veil from their eyes.  They are being misled by their friends and the world and you will go, tell them their falsehood and make them see the Truth.  Noble of you, Preacher.  The presumption of owning the Truth is a great arrogance, one that many atheists find fault amongst the various religious for claiming.  The thought that you can change someone’s mind by disrespecting their beliefs and their upbringing is a false one as well, another that many atheists complain the various religious groups hold. 

If you seek to change the mind of someone, then best consider first their reason for holding their beliefs and then respecting them as human beings that hold rational opinions and are able to formulate reason thoughts.  From there present your own rational reasons and discuss.  Simply stating that someone cannot be rational because of their culture, belief system or upbringing starts the discussion on a bad note that will likely not improve.

Except this isn't true. I don't preach anything; I will point out if people are saying something which is patently false (or does pointing out to a Flat Earth Creationist that the world is not flat count as 'preaching'?) and speak out about the things I find wrong about holding to beliefs which harm people (teaching children religion, I feel, is child abuse; just as much as teaching them that Jack and the Beanstalk is real), or when it impacts other people (See: Anti-gay marriage activists, the majority being Christian and/or religious)

You like to change the goalposts a lot. Arguing 'slippery slopes' doesn't work either. I never claimed people can't be rational, 'because of their culture, belief or upbringing'. Those are your words. Feel free to quote where I said that. However, it is possible for rational people to hold irrational beliefs. Everyday, people believe they have lucky underpants. Does this affect anyone? No. It's harmless belief. This is, however, completely different from teaching your children that a man in the sky will torture them for eternity if they don't clean their room, will hate them forever if they're gay or allow homosexuals to be open about their sexuality. If you subscribe to irrational beliefs, then yes, it is shown that it's possible to then start holding more irrational beliefs, but this is not a fact, as far as I know.

As I say, it is impossible to rationally defend the Bible. It has as much evidence as being real as Harry Potter or Spiderman. If it's rational to believe the Bible, then by extention, isn't it irrational to not believe in wizards and Hogwarts, or radioactive spider powers and Hobgoblin?

Offline Oniya

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Re: Bwa hahahahha
« Reply #65 on: July 17, 2013, 10:21:10 AM »
Vanity, as I pointed out to Sabby - it's not the fact of your belief system.  It is your method of presenting it.  I swear, if someone on these boards so much as whispers that there might be a few good things somewhere in a religion, you're on it like a shark after chum.  It reminds me a lot of the 'angry young Pagans' who decide that everything monotheistic is 'bad', 'horrible', 'evil', 'repressive', 'come and see the violence inherent in the system',  *cough*.

If you think that you are going to convince anyone that they should become an atheist using the techniques that you have been demonstrating, you have a lot to learn about people.  It is perfectly possible to present facts without blowing the 'YOU'RE ALL IRRATIONAL' horn.  It is that tendency that I have seen time and again that puts everyone on the defensive and virtually ensures that they will dismiss what you have to say.

Offline Vanity Evolved

Re: Bwa hahahahha
« Reply #66 on: July 17, 2013, 10:52:02 AM »
Vanity, as I pointed out to Sabby - it's not the fact of your belief system.  It is your method of presenting it.  I swear, if someone on these boards so much as whispers that there might be a few good things somewhere in a religion, you're on it like a shark after chum.  It reminds me a lot of the 'angry young Pagans' who decide that everything monotheistic is 'bad', 'horrible', 'evil', 'repressive', 'come and see the violence inherent in the system',  *cough*.

If you think that you are going to convince anyone that they should become an atheist using the techniques that you have been demonstrating, you have a lot to learn about people.  It is perfectly possible to present facts without blowing the 'YOU'RE ALL IRRATIONAL' horn.  It is that tendency that I have seen time and again that puts everyone on the defensive and virtually ensures that they will dismiss what you have to say.

I admit, I have gotten a little heated in some of the way I present things. Still, I've yet to see someone present something -good- which religion does, which can't be done in a secular fashion, without the baggage. Why teach children 'good morals' through Christianity, and then have to explain away the parts like rape and child murder and then making excuses for how Hell 'actually works'? If someone could show me something which religion alone can solely do for the good of people, which can't be achieved by secular means, I'd totally accept that.

Edit: I can't speak for Sabs, but admittedly, I am rather an antitheist atheist. For what it's worth.
« Last Edit: July 17, 2013, 10:53:24 AM by Vanity Evolved »

Offline Oniya

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Re: Bwa hahahahha
« Reply #67 on: July 17, 2013, 12:14:09 PM »
Three men want to travel from Georgia to Maine.  One takes the Appalachian Trail.  It takes him six months, during which he gets poison ivy twice, has to sleep in a tent and carry a heavy load, walking over 2,100 miles.  However, at the end of it, he has made many friends with other hikers, seen a lot of beautiful scenery, and learned a lot about his own ability to deal with tough situations. 

The second man drives.  It takes him about 4 days (figuring stops for meals, bathroom breaks, and sleeping), during which he has to deal with traffic jams, toll booths, and that one cook in New Jersey who got his order wrong five different ways.  At the end of it, he's also seen some quaint small towns, took in a few historic sites, and listened to a ton of good music on the radio and CDs (always have to figure in that one stretch where the radio 'scan' button does a full circuit without finding anything.)

The third man takes a plane from Atlanta to Presque Isle.  It takes him a few hours, during which he has to deal with a grope-down from TSA, a delay on his transfer at Dulles Airport, a guy next to him who won't stop talking about the decline in tuba sales, and a mixup where his luggage gets sent to Bangor.  However, he arrives at his destination quickly enough that he is able to catch the annual Potato Blossom parade in the afternoon.

All three men started from the same place.  All three men got to the same place.  All three men had good experiences and bad experiences, and probably think that the others were mistaken in their choices.  However, it was their choice to make, and no one else could choose their path for them.

Offline Ephiral

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Re: Bwa hahahahha
« Reply #68 on: July 17, 2013, 12:24:58 PM »
The thing is, though, that guy #3 was way more successful than guy #1 - he now has six months he can devote to, y'know, pursuing other goals. Further, you assume that guy #1 followed his trail perfectly - there are relatively few ways to go wrong at the airport as compared to hiking on foot. From any perspective that is concerned with actually getting to the right destination and accomplishing your goals (note that all the lovely experiences guy #1 had were, while nice, not actually part of his intent or desire), the first guy is sloppy at best.

Offline SakamotoHD

Re: Bwa hahahahha
« Reply #69 on: July 17, 2013, 12:29:50 PM »
You... know nothing about the men's goals. How can you already judge a person when you don't even know why they might choose a trail. You know nothing about them.

The phrase "the journey is more important then the destination" is utterly lost on you. You didn't even take the time to consider it. It doesn't matter how they reached their goals.

Offline ThesunmaidTopic starter

Re: Bwa hahahahha
« Reply #70 on: July 17, 2013, 12:34:49 PM »
All I know is I want to be a good person because its the right thing to do...not because there's some giant cosmic voyeur who is going to send me to hell because I was not good because he told me to.

Offline Rogue

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Re: Bwa hahahahha
« Reply #71 on: July 17, 2013, 12:43:18 PM »
The thing is, though, that guy #3 was way more successful than guy #1 - he now has six months he can devote to, y'know, pursuing other goals. Further, you assume that guy #1 followed his trail perfectly - there are relatively few ways to go wrong at the airport as compared to hiking on foot. From any perspective that is concerned with actually getting to the right destination and accomplishing your goals (note that all the lovely experiences guy #1 had were, while nice, not actually part of his intent or desire), the first guy is sloppy at best.

I believe that that was the point she was trying to make. Maybe guy 1 doesn't have a car or the extra money for a bus ride down. He already owns a tent (due to being an avid camper or something similar) and enjoys the outdoors greatly. Maybe guy 1 wanted to try it, for the experience he knew it would give because he was bored of taking planes everywhere.

Motivations for each one weren't given besides the want to get there. This doesn't mean that they didn't have other reasons beyond the first to go. Maybe guy 1 lost someone and needed a trip to cleanse himself or feel close to the one he lost. Maybe guy 3 just wants to get there and go home because he has a job to get back to. Maybe guy 2 is moving and needs to drive to keep with all of his things. I think she was trying to say, don't assume one is better than the other because we all get to the same place at the end. (ie: Dead)

All I know is I want to be a good person because its the right thing to do...not because there's some giant cosmic voyeur who is going to send me to hell because I was not good because he told me to.

I wish to give you a hug because that's how I feel too. *nods*

Offline ThesunmaidTopic starter

Re: Bwa hahahahha
« Reply #72 on: July 17, 2013, 12:50:40 PM »
Offers Miss Rogue a hug and smiles"I will take hugs from anyone..hugs are awsome."

Offline meikle

Re: Bwa hahahahha
« Reply #73 on: July 17, 2013, 12:53:47 PM »
(ie: Dead)

And that's kind of important too, isn't it?  It doesn't matter how right you are right now.  It doesn't matter how truthful your insight into reality is.

When it's all said and done, you don't get points at the end for being the most right.  You don't lose points for being ~wrong~.  So maybe people should dedicate more effort to not being assholes in general; if someone is so devout in their atheism that they turn out to be a raging dick, they're really not any better than the religious dicks that they get so worked up over.

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Re: Bwa hahahahha
« Reply #74 on: July 17, 2013, 01:02:05 PM »

When it's all said and done, you don't get points at the end for being the most right.  You don't lose points for being ~wrong~.  So maybe people should dedicate more effort to not being assholes in general; if someone is so devout in their atheism that they turn out to be a raging dick, they're really not any better than the religious dicks that they get so worked up over.


Another nice summary of my POV *shrugs* when I was younger I was a dick. I am still a dick just I like to think not as big of one I guess you get shrinkage with age. I lean right in my politics and have a religious bent to me. But I have decided extra belligerence does not make one extra right. So I try to be Zen about things because I know I sure to hell wasted a lot of energy being really mad over things in the past that in the end did not matter.