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The Elliquian Herald & Post
Issue 74 (Autumn) ~ August thru October 2017

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Author Topic: Dominionism, Christianity and the United States  (Read 5199 times)

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Offline Ephiral

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Re: Dominionism, Christianity and the United States
« Reply #100 on: July 17, 2013, 07:02:33 PM »
I suppose then that the Tea Party and the John Birch movements, both of which espoused Christianity, come from another urge. Silly me, I tend to believe that people who bring up Christianity (however perverted) probably believe in that direction. I've yet to come across pagan political extremists.
Really? Because I've seen plenty who talk about how Christians should be rounded up and put into camps, or flat-out executed. These are by no means mainstream positions, but... well, fringe extremists exist in every group of sufficient size. If you haven't seen them in your group, then either you're trying very hard not to look for them or you're caught in an affective death spiral. Or both.

Offline CaughtByMoonlightTopic starter

Re: Dominionism, Christianity and the United States
« Reply #101 on: July 17, 2013, 07:03:43 PM »
Link me up. :)

Offline Trieste

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Re: Dominionism, Christianity and the United States
« Reply #102 on: July 17, 2013, 07:11:41 PM »
I follow what the Koch brothers are up to with marginal interest (in the sense of "wonder what evil has done this morning to advance its plans to take over the world") but I don't think I've ever actually heard them espouse religious views of any sort. I think they have allied themselves with people who will do what they want. I don't think they care about churches - that was the point I was making. Or trying to make.

Offline Ephiral

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Re: Dominionism, Christianity and the United States
« Reply #103 on: July 17, 2013, 07:19:08 PM »
Link me up. :)
I'm an outsider, and don't even begin to know where to begin looking online. I speak of things I've heard IRL (a surprising percentage of my friends are active in the local pagan community, and certain people keep coming up as Problems in their conversation). I know this is hardly compelling evidence, but... well, frankly, can you point to a single moderately large group of people that doesn't have rigorous admissions standards that doesn't have a small percentage of crazy loons? I certainly can't. (And I'm not just slinging mud at the pagans here - I've gotten into some rather nasty arguments with fellow atheists over our own slimy whackjobs.)

EDIT: One of the aforementioned friends happens to be online; I'll see if she can turn up a few resources.

EDIT^2: Okay, how about the Wotanists? The White Order of Thule? The Atgemeinschaft? The ugly undercurrent of transphobia that plagues Dianic Wicca (and, I suspect given the time of its founding and its expressed aims, is baked into it)?
« Last Edit: July 17, 2013, 07:56:07 PM by Ephiral »

Offline Oniya

Re: Dominionism, Christianity and the United States
« Reply #104 on: July 17, 2013, 07:59:39 PM »
Any sufficiently large group of people - admission standards or not - will have its crazy loons.  The biggest difference is how easy they are to spot.

Offline Ephiral

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Re: Dominionism, Christianity and the United States
« Reply #105 on: July 17, 2013, 08:04:14 PM »
Any sufficiently large group of people - admission standards or not - will have its crazy loons.  The biggest difference is how easy they are to spot.
Mmm... true, though it'll be a much smaller (possibly negligible) percentage.

Offline CaughtByMoonlightTopic starter

Re: Dominionism, Christianity and the United States
« Reply #106 on: July 17, 2013, 08:08:40 PM »
I'm an outsider, and don't even begin to know where to begin looking online. I speak of things I've heard IRL (a surprising percentage of my friends are active in the local pagan community, and certain people keep coming up as Problems in their conversation). I know this is hardly compelling evidence, but... well, frankly, can you point to a single moderately large group of people that doesn't have rigorous admissions standards that doesn't have a small percentage of crazy loons? I certainly can't. (And I'm not just slinging mud at the pagans here - I've gotten into some rather nasty arguments with fellow atheists over our own slimy whackjobs.)

EDIT: One of the aforementioned friends happens to be online; I'll see if she can turn up a few resources.

EDIT^2: Okay, how about the Wotanists? The White Order of Thule? The Atgemeinschaft? The ugly undercurrent of transphobia that plagues Dianic Wicca (and, I suspect given the time of its founding and its expressed aims, is baked into it)?

Interesting. Your first three examples reek of nazism. Dianics... they have their own agenda outside of Wicca. What can I say. There ARE nutburgers everywhere. Even in my group. Does my group figure they have "the one and only true religion"? Nope.

Your assertion that "my group" (which by the way is Solitary Wiccans, go figure...) is espousing treating Christians as you outlined? Sadly, not proved.

I have nothing against Christians. I have a lot against people who seek to advance their religious and political agendas at the expense of others.

Offline Oniya

Re: Dominionism, Christianity and the United States
« Reply #107 on: July 17, 2013, 08:12:15 PM »
Dianics tend to have a thing against anyone with a Y-chromosome.  It's one of the reasons I avoid 'Women's Gathers' (which draw them like moths to a lamp).

Offline Ephiral

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Re: Dominionism, Christianity and the United States
« Reply #108 on: July 17, 2013, 08:23:15 PM »
Interesting. Your first three examples reek of nazism. Dianics... they have their own agenda outside of Wicca. What can I say. There ARE nutburgers everywhere. Even in my group. Does my group figure they have "the one and only true religion"? Nope.

Your assertion that "my group" (which by the way is Solitary Wiccans, go figure...) is espousing treating Christians as you outlined? Sadly, not proved.

I have nothing against Christians. I have a lot against people who seek to advance their religious and political agendas at the expense of others.
I was using the group you seemed to identify with, pagans. As I said, the specific examples I originally mentioned are things I heard, with my ears, IRL, and thus do not have documentation of. However, the links I've provided are very clear examples of extremism and bigotry in paganism, which proves the larger point those anecdotes were intended to support.

Again, I feel this is something that needs to be stressed, because it looks like you're feeling like I'm ascribing these beliefs to you: These are not mainstream views in their communities. They are not representative of the larger whole, and your average pagan is likely to be a friendly and reasonable person. Indeed, you appear to fit that description. The majority of any group you care to name is going to be decent people, because the majority of people are pretty decent. The danger comes when you claim all of a given group fits this description. By ignoring the ugly elements within a community you identify with, you give them a place to take root and fester and cause further harm.

This is an issue we're dealing with right now in atheism - we spent a long damn time ignoring the ugly trend of privileging hetero, cis, white men within the community, and now we're having an extremely hard and ugly time telling bigoted assholes that their bigotry no longer speaks for the rest of us.

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Re: Dominionism, Christianity and the United States
« Reply #109 on: July 17, 2013, 08:41:20 PM »
EDIT^2: Okay, how about the Wotanists? The White Order of Thule? The Atgemeinschaft?

The vast majority of Asatruar (that I am aware of) have an extremely poor opinion of the neo nazi / white power types.

As you say though, any group is likely to have its own extremist fringe. The larger the group, the more extremists you have, so the more visible they become.

Offline Trieste

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Re: Dominionism, Christianity and the United States
« Reply #110 on: July 17, 2013, 09:02:19 PM »
It's also somewhat uneven to generalize under Christianity but then insist on individualization of pagan sects. I'm neither pagan nor Christian but I'm well-read on both so I can follow what you're saying. For the average non-practitioner, Wicca is pagan is Druidism is shamanism is satanism is occultism and so on. As you know, that's not true. Similarly, Catholics are not Lutherans are not Baptists are not Episcopalians are not Adventists are not Mormons.

I mean, speaking about extremism, can anyone (other than Oniya) name precisely what sect of Christianity the WBC identifies with? Sure, it's in the name, but how many people realize that's the name of a sect? And just how many Baptists do you think are proud to stand next to WBC members and be painted with the same brush?

I didn't think so.

Offline Oniya

Re: Dominionism, Christianity and the United States
« Reply #111 on: July 17, 2013, 09:04:41 PM »

Offline CaughtByMoonlightTopic starter

Re: Dominionism, Christianity and the United States
« Reply #112 on: July 17, 2013, 09:05:33 PM »
Ephiral, I apologize if I was too defensive with you. It's a habit from being under attack by the "uni-viewed" out there, if I can coin a term. Atheists have as hard a time as anyone in this climate.

HairyHeretic: The Asatruar I know are wonderful people. There are skinhead groups, though, that identify themselves that way. It tarnishes the whole bunch. But... all one can do is demonstrate how they are far from the skinhead beliefs.

Offline Trieste

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Offline Ephiral

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Re: Dominionism, Christianity and the United States
« Reply #114 on: July 17, 2013, 09:45:01 PM »
I mean, speaking about extremism, can anyone (other than Oniya) name precisely what sect of Christianity the WBC identifies with? Sure, it's in the name, but how many people realize that's the name of a sect? And just how many Baptists do you think are proud to stand next to WBC members and be painted with the same brush?
Offhand, I'd say a particularly virulent fundamentalist offshoot of Southern Baptist Congregation evangelism? *ducks*

Ephiral, I apologize if I was too defensive with you. It's a habit from being under attack by the "uni-viewed" out there, if I can coin a term. Atheists have as hard a time as anyone in this climate.

HairyHeretic: The Asatruar I know are wonderful people. There are skinhead groups, though, that identify themselves that way. It tarnishes the whole bunch. But... all one can do is demonstrate how they are far from the skinhead beliefs.
No worries, I totally understand. I was more worried that you were getting upset and insulted, and trying to avoid that.

The articles I read indicated a strong break between "Asatru" (which kicked the racist elements to the curb about the moment they showed up) and "Odinism" and its descendants, which are centered specifically around racist ideology of much the same stripe as Christian Identity. This is an outsider's perspective, so may not be entirely accurate, but it seems a useful distinction to me.

Offline CaughtByMoonlightTopic starter

Re: Dominionism, Christianity and the United States
« Reply #115 on: July 17, 2013, 09:56:44 PM »
WBC, to me, is not affiliated with anything either Baptist or Church-y. As nearly as I can tell, they are mostly a group formed from one family and some hangers-on who have discovered an interesting tax-dodge. But that's me (and some others). It's hard to see anyone who behaves that way defining themselves as Christians, never mind anything else.


Offline Oniya

Re: Dominionism, Christianity and the United States
« Reply #116 on: July 17, 2013, 10:07:28 PM »
I personally try very hard not to use either the word 'Baptist' or 'Church' when I refer to them.  If I'm feeling particularly dismissive of them, I don't even use their chosen name, and refer to them as 'the Phelps clan'.

Offline CaughtByMoonlightTopic starter

Re: Dominionism, Christianity and the United States
« Reply #117 on: July 17, 2013, 10:10:43 PM »
That works. Or "The Phelps Dodge" ... but that sounds too much like a mining company.

Offline Oniya

Re: Dominionism, Christianity and the United States
« Reply #118 on: July 17, 2013, 10:12:31 PM »
Or a used car dealership.  ;D

Offline Kythia

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Re: Dominionism, Christianity and the United States
« Reply #119 on: July 17, 2013, 10:13:22 PM »
Offhand, I'd say a particularly virulent fundamentalist offshoot of Southern Baptist Congregation evangelism? *ducks*

They're actually independent, both the SBC and the BWA have denounced them publicly.  Phelps himself is a Primitive Baptist.

Offline Ephiral

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Re: Dominionism, Christianity and the United States
« Reply #120 on: July 17, 2013, 10:18:27 PM »
I personally try very hard not to use either the word 'Baptist' or 'Church' when I refer to them.  If I'm feeling particularly dismissive of them, I don't even use their chosen name, and refer to them as 'the Phelps clan'.

It's more important to me to keep my thinking free of No True Scotsman arguments than it is to avoid using their own self-identification, even if it might annoy people around them.

Which is not to say all Baptists are bad - far from it. Fred Clark is the kind of upstanding human being I wish I could be, for example.

They're actually independent, both the SBC and the BWA have denounced them publicly.  Phelps himself is a Primitive Baptist.
I know that they're not currently affiliated with anyone else, though I didn't know they'd been specifically denounced by the SBC (and I'm not familiar with the BWA as an org). I see a difference of degree, not of kind, between the hatred Phelps was preaching when he came to the public eye and the hatred the SBC has chosen to define its boundaries by, so I figured that was a good guess as to their roots, even if they'd broken off since then. Apparently I was wrong; thanks for the correction.

Offline Oniya

Re: Dominionism, Christianity and the United States
« Reply #121 on: July 17, 2013, 10:21:21 PM »
If they acted remotely like a church, I'd be more inclined to call them one - but while a rose by any other name would smell as sweet, calling a turd a gardenia does not make it one.

Offline Kythia

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Re: Dominionism, Christianity and the United States
« Reply #122 on: July 17, 2013, 10:22:11 PM »
Baptist World Alliance.  Realistically, though neither organisation defines itself this way, the BWA is the umbrella organisation for most of the world, the SBC for North America.  Counter-examples abound, but that's the broad drawing of lines.

Offline Ephiral

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Re: Dominionism, Christianity and the United States
« Reply #123 on: July 17, 2013, 10:26:47 PM »
If they acted remotely like a church, I'd be more inclined to call them one - but while a rose by any other name would smell as sweet, calling a turd a gardenia does not make it one.
The core of the Phelps clan's agenda is to use their espoused religion as a cover for reprehensible cash grabs. Without meaning any insult to any specific group of believers (and thus without pointing any fingers), this sounds not unlike some megachurches which still bear that title.

EDIT: On another level, this still sounds like No True Scotsman to me. A church, at its core, is an organized group of people who are lead by a preacher and espouse belief in Christianity. That fits the bill. To use an example from my own backyard, the Slymepit is still an atheist org - the core idea around which they rally is "There are no gods (and women's rights are a stupid idea and I can say whatever I want whereever I want and you can't stop me)."
« Last Edit: July 17, 2013, 10:29:08 PM by Ephiral »

Offline Cyrano Johnson

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Re: Dominionism, Christianity and the United States
« Reply #124 on: July 18, 2013, 01:58:06 AM »
Really? Because I've seen plenty who talk about how Christians should be rounded up and put into camps, or flat-out executed.

Going back a bit, but: there was in fact a substantial neo-pagan strain in historical Nazism, and there remains such in the modern world and the intellectual heirs of that movement: cf. Varg "Count Grishnakh" Vikernes of Norwegian Black Metal (and Burzum) fame.