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Author Topic: ->| EXALTED |<- "Should The Sun Not Rise"  (Read 2471 times)

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Online Zaer Darkwail

Re: ->| EXALTED |<- "Should The Sun Not Rise"
« Reply #75 on: August 22, 2013, 02:36:49 PM »
True, but I argue there are scenarios where compassion 5 person can kill other person if compassion compels him to do so (or backed both by compassion and conviction). Example; Sol Invictus has Compassion 5 (or 10 in full power mode) yet he was the one who send solars to slay primordials in dozens. He stopped Merela using Daystar against primordials not because he cared for primordial lives, but because he did not want mortals in Creation view sun fearfully (want it keep it as symbol of life and hope than destruction even if Daystar is well capable to cause dreadful destruction when employed as weapon).

So my argument that virtue cannot conflict with itself and force WP burn could be considered decent answer to explain why god of virtue could act upon his compassion without burning itself dry on WP. Understandably Sol Invictus presently is like a guy who focuses on his divine Xbox to ignore outside world as he knows he would be forced on act if he listens all suffering going on (he is like superman who has deafened himself from pleas of mortals as his own heart is still hurt from betrayal done by solars to him). Also dragon kings daily sacrificed humans on altars by ripping their hearts out as divine offering and he accepted those offerings.

Of course you can argue that 'Sol Invictus is a god and not a person whom is influenced by virtues different manner'. But then again he is god of virtue, how he can present virtues if he acts in alien manner with them?

Online Zaer Darkwail

Re: ->| EXALTED |<- "Should The Sun Not Rise"
« Reply #76 on: August 22, 2013, 02:41:20 PM »
Using Social Magic does not, on its own, trigger a Compassion check.  If your ST holds to the whole "All social magic is evil mind control," then I guess it might, but the whole "social magic is mind control" thing is probably one of the worst things to come out of Exalted 2e.

It does if social magic constitutes any lasting harm to the person to inflict stuff which makes them do things which they deep inside somewhere regret doing. Unless it's UMI which also creates enchanted intimacy which case they do not feel regret but any compassionate person who is sane knows that it's mind-bending free will robbing magic and compassionate person cares about free will of others. Example Desus is perfect example of using social magic against Lilith; she could not lift a finger against him while he kicked her to the guts as he was sadist who got sexual kicks in harming people.

More so he inflicted social magic upon others turn blind eye on Lilith's suffering and so isolate her among heroes.....so she felt abandoned by exalted host and alone in her nightmare and all that was done by social magic. If you say that sort of action does not provoke compassion then it should not get provoked when your about murder a family who rebels against your reign as solar (who is compassion 5 without any virtue changing charms).

Offline meikle

Re: ->| EXALTED |<- "Should The Sun Not Rise"
« Reply #77 on: August 22, 2013, 02:43:14 PM »
The Unconquered Sun stopped the war when the Primordials surrendered; that was not a Compassion issue.  If he'd looked on and given his assent to the Exalted to kill them all, then yeah, that would make sense.

The point here is that you will trigger Compassion and need to fail the check to kill someone who is at your mercy.  When the war started, the Primordials were not at the Sun's mercy -- and when it ended, they weren't at his mercy, either (they were at the Exalteds' mercy.)

As you've already shown, there are other ways to handle this situation than "kill the prisoner / let them continue to kill people," you've just dismissed them all because they're a lot of work and difficult to accomplish.  Such is the plight of playing a character with a virtue at 5.  High virtues are designed to create difficult decisions.  It isn't supposed to be easy.  Keep your virtues low if you don't want them to put you into difficult situations -- this is why most people have all of their Virtues at 2, and why Exalted only need to have one at 3.  It's easier that way.  If you want to be a paragon of virtue, then you must accept that sometimes your virtues will get in the way of doing things the easy way.

Quote
It does if social magic constitutes any lasting harm to the person to inflict stuff which makes them do things which they deep inside somewhere regret doing.
This is your personal bias, and isn't reflected in the source material.

The Exalted did not convince Theion to surrender by bombing him with social magic.  Your game can and must be occasionally extend beyond the mechanics if you want it to be enjoyable.  If nothing else, it will be nice to have 3e come and wipe the virtues off the table and bring in social combat changes that put an end to the "social combat is evil mind control" meme.
« Last Edit: August 22, 2013, 02:47:08 PM by meikle »

Offline RajahTopic starter

Re: ->| EXALTED |<- "Should The Sun Not Rise"
« Reply #78 on: August 22, 2013, 02:52:27 PM »
The book only explicitly covers four circumstances - slaying the defeated, ignoring the oppressed/impoverished, ignoring the powerful abusing the helpless (really isn't that the same as the second one?), publicly (not privately) humiliate a friend of lover.

The Virtues aren't insanity. Epic Zeal/Cosmic Transcendence are insanity. You don't have to beat a child to death for insulting you, you could tell his parents he was a rude kid, or insult him back, or make a really scary face - "retribution" isn't defined, but I'm pretty sure it's not meant to imply "draw sword and decapitate". You have to fail Temperance to show bias in a matter of importance; even at Temperance 5, you can show bias to your friends in lesser endeavors. Virtues are heroic and meant to apply first and foremost to heroic circumstances. They don't make you a terrible crazy person, they make you epic. Most everyday experiences aren't covered for the very good reason it's not a behavior guide or morality meter, it's a Dramatic Moment Resolution Aid.

Okay, let's go through the list;

A) Imprison enemy all forever where it cannot cause any harm to anyone
= Compassion check as imprisonment to all eternity is cruel punishment on anyone. Deathlords do not age, they don't die nor they need eat nor drink. They do not die unless using charms or artifacts.

It depends on the nature of the enemy and the imprisonment. Putting a Deathlord in a cage would be a check in my estimation; putting it in an Elsewhere realm it could rule as it saw fit would not. CRUEL punishment is separate from punishment, to me.

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B) Forcibly redeem a person who seeks willingly cause harm and destruction in the world to achieve his goals (and I think most deathlords are willpower 8 and some even have conviction 5).
= Compassion check as breaking a will and forcing radical change upon someone is monstrously evil social-fu action in it's core even when it's done for good. As no matter of NMI can change deathlord from their motivation so you need UMI effects hammered on him.

No, not even if you use UMI. They'll feel horrified, but rewriting someone isn't evil in the sense that torturing them is; changing all their boundary conditions is philosophically the same as killing them, but Compassion draws a distinction. Maybe because murder is visceral.

Using UMI for other purposes might ping.

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C) Let his foe go freely and threaten with punishment if he does his actions again.
= Leads to go back square 1 and forces willpower burn each time a unredeemed deathlord strikes again (and he will and he seeks make you suffer greatly as revenge from humiliation it received) because your Compassion kicks you on the nuts being such a idiot in believing deathlord would learn it's lesson and take your threat seriously (or deathlord awaits until you die and then uses necromancy capture your ghost and make you his bitch, either way your screwed).

You don't have to check Compassion when the Deathlord continues to do evil. Only if you do evil. So technically you can do this.

It's a bad idea, though.

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Lethe

Is always the best choice. Thank you for the examples. I think that should lay the issue to rest of whether or not sending a soul to Lethe is Compassionate.

Online Zaer Darkwail

Re: ->| EXALTED |<- "Should The Sun Not Rise"
« Reply #79 on: August 22, 2013, 02:54:08 PM »
You still dismiss social magic issue with Desus vs Lilith scenario, but I understand the dislike that all social magic is considered evil mind control (I myself would not count social magic ask compassion roll if it allows spare lives; like placate angry horde of beastmen with performance charm which dazzles them over to become your worshipers and follow your doghma which is more peaceful). But if we strictly follow the virtues the social magic would always call on compassion roll.

So in my opinion; virtue rules (and how they conflict and force mīburn WP depending how virtuous you are) were poorly written. Example temperance hinders in lying but when taking RL examples the best liars are those who have strict self-control.

Offline AndyZ

Re: ->| EXALTED |<- "Should The Sun Not Rise"
« Reply #80 on: August 22, 2013, 02:55:20 PM »
The issue here is that the rules attempt to quantify something which has no general consensus even RL.  The laws of morality are incredibly diverse, and if people can't agree whether a fetus is a human life, similar issues will arrive about a hun or po spirit, or any number of quasi-human entities.

This has been an issue with White Wolf since Vampire, though it's not kept solely to White Wolf.  I've had a DM in a 3.5 game who took my paladin's powers because she attacked a thief who continued stealing after her multiple warnings didn't take hold.  I've had STs who claimed that a vampire drinking blood was an injury to a person and thus a Humanity 8 degeneration.

In the end, it comes down to ST fiat.

Oh, and Zaer, the reason Lilith couldn't do anything to Desus was because he's her Solar Mate, not so much because of social magic.

Offline meikle

Re: ->| EXALTED |<- "Should The Sun Not Rise"
« Reply #81 on: August 22, 2013, 02:59:20 PM »
You still dismiss social magic issue with Desus vs Lilith scenario, but I understand the dislike that all social magic is considered evil mind control (I myself would not count social magic ask compassion roll if it allows spare lives; like placate angry horde of beastmen with performance charm which dazzles them over to become your worshipers and follow your doghma which is more peaceful). But if we strictly follow the virtues the social magic would always call on compassion roll.

I dismiss it because the issue is not how Desus accomplished his goals (using social magic), it's what he accomplished (slavery) and why he did it (because he's a sadist who likes to hurt people.)

A sword isn't evil just because you can stab innocent people with it.

Quote
The Virtues aren't insanity. Epic Zeal/Cosmic Transcendence are insanity. You don't have to beat a child to death for insulting you, you could tell his parents he was a rude kid, or insult him back, or make a really scary face - "retribution" isn't defined, but I'm pretty sure it's not meant to imply "draw sword and decapitate".

I used the vague 'retribution' for a reason.  I didn't say anything about decapitating kids.

Offline RajahTopic starter

Re: ->| EXALTED |<- "Should The Sun Not Rise"
« Reply #82 on: August 22, 2013, 03:00:35 PM »
*shudder*

Alignment.

Quote from: Zaer Darkwail
So in my opinion; virtue rules (and how they conflict and force mīburn WP depending how virtuous you are) were poorly written. Example temperance hinders in lying but when taking RL examples the best liars are those who have strict self-control.

HA! I never thought about that - Temperance shackling honesty to self-control and to non-bias is definitely a bit of a clusterfuck, isn't it? But yeah, they're an idea that maybe could have used a lot more wordcount and wiggle room. Still, I think an open-minded approach makes them workable.

Quote from: AndyZ
Oh, and Zaer, the reason Lilith couldn't do anything to Desus was because he's her Solar Mate, not so much because of social magic.

He beat her until she miscarried. Twice. I'm pretty sure "Solar Mate" doesn't cover that one. In any case, it's explicit that she could never tell anyone or fail to kill anyone who found out because of his UMI. He locked her in a mental prison not unlike the Ebon Dragon Charm, Our Little Secret.

Online Zaer Darkwail

Re: ->| EXALTED |<- "Should The Sun Not Rise"
« Reply #83 on: August 22, 2013, 03:02:36 PM »
Desus used social magic disguise his personal life actions to appear saint and make others 'deaf and blind' to Lilith's blight. I remember in some canon material Lilith actually describes Desus using social-fu to inflict cruelty on her indirectly (by isolating her likely). Desus acts may had been private physical beating and Lilith's in-action may had come from intensely strong solar bond (rating 5), but then again there is charm which forces this sort bond to any lunar mate (to extend even force lunar come to you). Plus Lilith murdered anyone who found it out so it smells pretty strongly a UMI effect (and can explain why she so badly wants murder each and every incarnation of Desus).

But as said, virtue conflict rules were not likely so thoroughly written and so directly following them leads to point where most players avoid embracing higher tier of virtues. So the usual golden ruling 'if something does not work/dismiss gaming fun if followed according rules, change or ignore them' applies there.

Offline meikle

Re: ->| EXALTED |<- "Should The Sun Not Rise"
« Reply #84 on: August 22, 2013, 03:05:19 PM »
Yes.  You are just reinforcing my point: Desus did terrible things with magic, but using magic was not why these things were terrible.

For what it's worth, the description of a Compassion 5 character is "Always spares their enemy's life."  Instead of a Deathlord, change the sample character to an Abyssal (so, a character who cannot be argued to be 'undead', is absolutely alive.  Or an Infernal, or a god, or whatever -- anything that can't be written off with "Lethe makes it okay to kill things.")

Offline AndyZ

Re: ->| EXALTED |<- "Should The Sun Not Rise"
« Reply #85 on: August 22, 2013, 03:06:09 PM »
But as said, virtue conflict rules were not likely so thoroughly written and so directly following them leads to point where most players avoid embracing higher tier of virtues. So the usual golden ruling 'if something does not work/dismiss gaming fun if followed according rules, change or ignore them' applies there.

That's an ST's call, not a player's.

Offline meikle

Re: ->| EXALTED |<- "Should The Sun Not Rise"
« Reply #86 on: August 22, 2013, 03:08:18 PM »
That's an ST's call, not a player's.

I think that it makes high virtues more interesting and fun, not less, if they mean something more than "I get 1.5 successes more when I channel a virtue!"

Offline RajahTopic starter

Re: ->| EXALTED |<- "Should The Sun Not Rise"
« Reply #87 on: August 22, 2013, 03:12:28 PM »
For what it's worth, the description of a Compassion 5 character is "Always spares their enemy's life."  Instead of a Deathlord, change the sample character to an Abyssal (so, a character who cannot be argued to be 'undead', is absolutely alive.  Or an Infernal, or a god, or whatever -- anything that can't be written off with "Lethe makes it okay to kill things.")

It is totally a Compassion check to kill those folks after they're defeated. Agreed 100%. For what it's worth, it's not Lethe that makes it okay to kill things (to me) it's the nature of a ghost.

Online Zaer Darkwail

Re: ->| EXALTED |<- "Should The Sun Not Rise"
« Reply #88 on: August 22, 2013, 03:20:23 PM »
That's an ST's call, not a player's.

Aye, that's true. Likely decision done so players could have more fun (ofc not made so the players can ignore virtues whenever they want as virtues need roleplayed still properly).

Yes.  You are just reinforcing my point: Desus did terrible things with magic, but using magic was not why these things were terrible.

For what it's worth, the description of a Compassion 5 character is "Always spares their enemy's life."  Instead of a Deathlord, change the sample character to an Abyssal (so, a character who cannot be argued to be 'undead', is absolutely alive.  Or an Infernal, or a god, or whatever -- anything that can't be written off with "Lethe makes it okay to kill things.")

Aye, social magic in itself is not evil but ways how it's used is evil. Compassion as rules written should ping always when you use social magic because anyways robbing free will is not a compassionate act.

Anyways abyssal can be monstrous as a deathlord but I agree compassion 5 person has harder time to kill abyssal as it means doom their souls to oblivion and they are living people who are infused with necrotic energy (where as deathlord is a ghost who needs to be send to Lethe as he should had been originally intended as all solar souls go lethe without delay time). That's why purified Ashbringer which 'overwrites' such fate by design makes it perfect tool for compassion 5 guy when fighting abyssals who cannot be redeemed (as their souls go Lethe instead but it would still ping but being less harsh decision to slay them). As tainted Ashbringer would send souls either lethe or oblivion (not by choice of wielder but judged by the sword itself). A compassion 5 char cannot use tainted Ashbringer because it holds 50% chance doom soul to eternal void. But Compassion 3 can with Conviction 5 but to purify it you need to achieve perfect virtuous nature while wielding it and use the item in it's intended purpose; slaying and purifying evil.

Background wise artifact was once property of a fire aspect lover of a Zenith in a first age who worked as Zenith's crusader. A blade blessed by Zenith by giving it spark of power from Sol Invictus through the Zenith. So that's why opened this whole can of worms known as 'how virtues should work despite how they are written by the rules'.

So as said, there is conflict in canon material where Compassion 5 should not work as canon material presents a virtuous person doing something (prime example being Zenith's anima power which overwrites a soul's choice to be ghost or go lethe and instead 'doom' soul go to lethe despite what soul haves to say in said matter).

Offline meikle

Re: ->| EXALTED |<- "Should The Sun Not Rise"
« Reply #89 on: August 22, 2013, 03:24:34 PM »
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robbing free will
Again, I do not thing that UMI is meant to be seen as 'robbing people of their free will'; that's an outgrowth of the playerbase's reading of UMI, and it's explicitly something that the authors have opposed and are doing their best to strike from the game moving forward.  The people in the Exalted setting don't treat UMI as mind control, for the most part -- mostly because it makes playing social characters who aren't categorically evil impossible.

The woman who wrote the rules has this to say:

Quote
It's fine to conclude that it's mind control, but please don't categorize it so quickly that you prevent the rules from working. I chose to locate the super-convincing effects in the target's mind so that players could always *choose* to say, "I think that's mind control, and I reject it!"---but I think that it's vital to be able to recognize phenomena that are mind control or are not mind control based on circumstances, personalities, and how the people involved choose to interpret them at the time of the effect.

When you declare all UMI to be mind control, you are doing exactly what she asks you not to: categorizing it so quickly that you prevent the rules from working.
« Last Edit: August 22, 2013, 03:26:31 PM by meikle »

Online Zaer Darkwail

Re: ->| EXALTED |<- "Should The Sun Not Rise"
« Reply #90 on: August 22, 2013, 03:30:53 PM »
I agree the strong influential charms are worded wrong way and term UMI is bad for them as it directly classifies each and every UMI as 'will freedom robbing' effect.

But it does not change that any will freedom robbing effect still pings compassion roll, so even if target is not aware of the effect the user is aware what they are doing. So wanting change social-fu to less compassion pinging climate you need entirely remove all strong influential charms from UMI category and give a new label for them which does not anyway say 'strongly affects target's minds, even against their will to point their psyche is pressured to struggle against it's persuasive power'. The new label should be instead 'sparking emotions inside the target which target needs use actively rebel against their own emotions to resist them'. So it does not sound person is burning WP to resist a charm but resist themselves.

Offline meikle

Re: ->| EXALTED |<- "Should The Sun Not Rise"
« Reply #91 on: August 22, 2013, 03:36:55 PM »
I can agree with that, I guess.  I think that it is healthier just to treat mental influence that way, because that is generally how it is treated in the background of the game -- there is no real issue in Exalted where people freak out whenever UMI is used against them, so whatever it takes to make the mechanics reflect how the people in the setting actually behave is what ought to be done.

Online Zaer Darkwail

Re: ->| EXALTED |<- "Should The Sun Not Rise"
« Reply #92 on: August 22, 2013, 03:45:02 PM »
Aye and if I would be ST I would relax the virtue rules bit so playing two or three virtue maxed char is not willpower burning experience (but conflict and strong passions need played out still) and that all UMI's are not meant screamed about. Some UMI's sound more inspirational (my own idea for new label for some social-fu charms) than mind wiping effects (there are charms which are UMI and do terrible things on person's psyche; whole Golden Years Tarnished Black tree is all about mind fuck people and some other TED charms).

Offline meikle

Re: ->| EXALTED |<- "Should The Sun Not Rise"
« Reply #93 on: August 22, 2013, 03:55:33 PM »
I don't see a reason for having lots of high virtues without the conflict between them.  I think that it adds texture; without those conflicts, I'm not sure what makes high virtues distinct from lower ones.  I want to see people struggle with the decision to slay the bad guy (and fulfill their conviction) or let her go (and appeal to their compassion.)  I want the Unconquered Sun to surrender to the Primordial Host and offer himself as a hostage in exchange for saving a single mortal life.  I want those hard decisions for heroes.

There is definitely UMI that is terrible and can serve no purpose other than hurting people, and the Ebon Dragon's magic often does it in really petty ways.  I'm okay with that; just like some blades can be used to kill tyrants, others are used by inquisitors to flay 'heretics'.  Being stuck in the category 'sharp things' isn't what makes the latter terrible.

Online Zaer Darkwail

Re: ->| EXALTED |<- "Should The Sun Not Rise"
« Reply #94 on: August 22, 2013, 04:04:12 PM »
Conflict is okay but my issue is that 'it forces burn willpower constantly' is the main issue with rules as written regarding virtue conflict.

Would make more sense 'you loose one channel of suppressed virtue' instead. Meaning if you ignore compassion you loose channel of compassion without any gain from doing so. So person who repeatedly bastardizes his virtue and if he empties his pool with a action which is against the virtue, you loose permanently a dot of that virtue (so person who repeatedly ignores his compassion even if he starts with compassion 5 means he eventually sinks to compassion 1).

So part of solar madness from first age was that when solars repeatedly started ignore their former high virtues and 'corroded' their virtuous sides and becoming ugly petty individuals. Ignoring once or twice your high virtue does not cause problems (as they replenish over time) but constant ignorance eventually reduces virtue in the person.

Offline meikle

Re: ->| EXALTED |<- "Should The Sun Not Rise"
« Reply #95 on: August 22, 2013, 04:12:59 PM »
That's a much harsher penalty than willpower expenditure.  There are very few ways to regain Virtue channels except for completing a story; it's really easy to get Willpower back!

I would go the other direction: the Solar madness didn't come from becoming petty, it came from becoming too virtuous, less willing to put themselves in check.  I think it makes sense with them getting really haughty about their place as the rulers of Creation.  Either way works to lead things down the road to the Usurpation, though.

Online Zaer Darkwail

Re: ->| EXALTED |<- "Should The Sun Not Rise"
« Reply #96 on: August 22, 2013, 04:15:27 PM »
I myself find it harder regain WP or overall I dislike besides activating charms and resist UMI I have to burn also WP resist urges of my virtues. So overall either there must be different price tag resist virtues (besides WP) or there is no penalty at all.

Offline meikle

Re: ->| EXALTED |<- "Should The Sun Not Rise"
« Reply #97 on: August 22, 2013, 04:19:03 PM »
Remember that any 2-dot stunt (that is, any stunt that incorporates an element of the environment) can restore a dot of Willpower.  Some STs house rule 2-dot stunts to be much more difficult to get han they are by the book though.

Online Zaer Darkwail

Re: ->| EXALTED |<- "Should The Sun Not Rise"
« Reply #98 on: August 22, 2013, 07:45:35 PM »
Aye and that is one reason why I dislike whole 'just burn WP ignore virtue' argument as WP is precious resource which should not fall under 5 unless invite CIFA moment to your char.

Anyways trying move off from virtue discussion I think my char is defiler with Adorjan favored as he has very intense curiosity about everything and thoroughly and methodically study any subject until he bores himself. In another token he likes do experiments to perfect human race to be more efficient and perfect who are strictly control of their emotions but in proper times can unleash intense emotions express themselves.

Offline RajahTopic starter

Re: ->| EXALTED |<- "Should The Sun Not Rise"
« Reply #99 on: August 24, 2013, 03:59:24 PM »
As the game "Ashes to Ashes" seems to have been locked, I am now considering throwing my hat into the ring to run a third game in addition to Jarick and Pumpkin's. We'll paint the site green! Anyone from Ashes to Ashes would have (slightly) preferential welcome, essentially a tiebreaker if it came down to their applications against someone of roughly equal app quality.

I'm open to setting ideas - I'm considering An-Teng, leaning heavily on its Indochina versus British Raj conflicts, as well as its dark Lovecraftian undercurrents of secret horror devouring both sides, and expanding that out into the rest of Creation as the troupe grew. I would be looking primarily at a Perfect Circle of mixed Infernal, Solar, and Abyssal Exaltations, and encourage applicants to compete for the slots they actually want rather than going with less enjoyable ideas just to get in - nothing ventured nothing gained, right? It would be fully 2.5e, which is bad for Infernals, I know; however I am very cooperative when it comes to custom material, so no one should feel too straitjacketed by the halfway-revised state of Exalted. Lunar Exalted will be additionally accepted; slots for this are entirely determined by the number of Solar-tier Exalted who want mates. You can apply together, but that means if one of you doesn't make the cut neither of you will.

I'd be using most of my ideas from the OP; the Unconquered Sun is gone, and An-Teng is lit by the efforts of the Golden Lord and the Realm, who have entered into an uneasy partnership of sorts against the rising darkness of the Pale Mistress and the hungry enemies of all mortal men. Lillun exists as the Coryphee of Hope (Hell's bubbly cheerleader-behemoth) and the Reclamation is a forgotten cause; Hell has shattered its alliances and become once more a bitter but disparate realm desperate to carve out what little it can of the world for its own. The Lunar-Solar Bond is a mutual vulnerability rather than a Background; both Lunars and their Solar/Abyssal/Infernal mates suffer halved DVs and MDVs against each other. Lunars will further be using the Terrifying Argent Witches variant.

Alternatively - people can vote on it if they like - we could try a post-Gunstar Autocthonia setting with most of the same rules; the Gunstar has crashed somewhere in the Titan-ruled Spiral, the Deliberative is dead, the Primordials seem too insane to be doing anything coherent, most of the Gunstar has gone dark, Luna's horrific sisters hunt between the stars...and everywhere the dark is left too long unlit, there is the whisper of Gremlin Syndrome, of the truly unspeakable.

Mechanically we would be using Solar costs for everyone, flat XP (Attributes always cost 6xp or 5 favored; Abilities always cost 4xp or 3 favored, et cetera) and an XP-buy system instead of Bonus Points. Essence would start at 4; Willpower would start at 10 and could be "bought down" for 3xp a dot, which cannot be raised later except by Charms that increase maximum Willpower. No Merits or Flaws, Revlid's Mutations, Revlid's Crafting, some revision to grappling, probably some other stuff. Questions or comments welcome; this is only a sketch at the moment.