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Author Topic: ->| EXALTED |<- "Should The Sun Not Rise"  (Read 2475 times)

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Online Zaer Darkwail

Re: ->| EXALTED |<- "Should The Sun Not Rise"
« Reply #50 on: August 22, 2013, 08:04:15 AM »
Well, my dragon-blood has Compassion 3, Conviction 5, Temperance 5, Valor 5 and to purify a tainted artifact he needs cap Compassion also to 5 (and it only happens after he forgives a deathlord from turning his home village into shadowland and turning every person dear to him to zombies which he had to cut down before burning and salting the village and forest around it, and then stab him with purified holy artifact which releases deathlord from torment of his unlife). The artifact is cool though as it allows turn all virtue channels into automatic successes (when used in thematic suitable situation) and has 'highest virtue amount dmg dice added in after you roll dmg after all soak and reducers had been applied'. Aggravated dmg vs creatures of darkness so it's pretty nasty 'bad touch' effect. Plus it sends all souls slain with the blade to Lethe and vaporizes bodies into ash (a 5th dot reaper daiklave). Weapon as tainted has all traits expect it judges targets send to oblivion or lethe depending who or what they are (and does wielder hate them).

Anyways a another player suggested I should play a high virtue char as paragon of knightly virtue (with Creation flavor). Kind of take inspiration from tales of Gabriel from king Arthur tales (the son of Lancelot who held and found Holy Grail). My char have questioned some his past although to make it happen needed hardcore proofs (like he was originally raised on Immaculate Faith but later discovered it was all bogus and now his intimacy switched from positive to negative in regards the order).

Offline meikle

Re: ->| EXALTED |<- "Should The Sun Not Rise"
« Reply #51 on: August 22, 2013, 08:13:12 AM »
If you beat this Deathlord, you would have to fail a compassion check to kill it if you had Compassion 5.  You would probably hit a conflict between Conviction and Compassion and have to decide which one to blow WP on.

I don't know that a knight is a good example of a character with all of their virtues capped.  Knights were still normal people; someone with all of their Virtues at 5 will have gone well beyond that.  I don't think there are any real-life examples to look to for someone like this.
« Last Edit: August 22, 2013, 08:20:02 AM by meikle »

Online Zaer Darkwail

Re: ->| EXALTED |<- "Should The Sun Not Rise"
« Reply #52 on: August 22, 2013, 08:19:43 AM »
Even while compassion 5 would tell me leaving the said deathlord dooms lives of those under dragon-blood's protection? Leaving deathlord alive would cause loss of thousands more lives? More so, when my char could get insight how deathlord became to be deathlord and that he is basically tormented ghost who cannot let go from hatred and is so trapped in own suffering like my char was moment's ago (he is driven avenger at this point but idea is later him get free from his own dark hatred).

More so he has conviction screaming out for him finish one way or another the task what he started; to defeat deathlord for good. But now it would not be matter of personal satisfaction to his hatred, but compassionate act bring end to suffering to said deathlord and those whom he may plaque later (and end to those who suffer under his reign as targeted deathlord is Mask of Winters and so liberating Thorns from his tyranny).

More so, it's my char's motivation to vanquish all darkness. So it would go against motivation also to spare deathlord who is creature of darkness and even without that label; a representative of gloomy darkness of Neverborn who threatens slay Creation. I just arguing here that virtues can be read differently; it just depends what ideals were taught to mean valor, compassion etc. It explains why abyssal virtues are messed up compared standard ones.

Offline meikle

Re: ->| EXALTED |<- "Should The Sun Not Rise"
« Reply #53 on: August 22, 2013, 08:22:35 AM »
Even while compassion 5 would tell me leaving the said deathlord dooms lives of those under dragon-blood's protection? Leaving deathlord alive would cause loss of thousands more lives? More so, when my char could get insight how deathlord became to be deathlord and that he is basically tormented ghost who cannot let go from hatred and is so trapped in own suffering like my char was moment's ago (he is driven avenger at this point but idea is later him get free from his own dark hatred).
Yes.  Because you are ultimately compassionate.  You cannot look beyond your compassion for this Deathlord.  If you want Greater Good compassion, you have to look to Cosmic Transcendence of Compassion -- you need magic to overcome this.  This magic isn't available to Dragonblooded, but only Infernals and Solars.

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More so he has conviction screaming out for him finish one way or another the task what he started; to defeat deathlord for good. But now it would not be matter of personal satisfaction to his hatred, but compassionate act bring end to suffering to said deathlord and those whom he may plaque later (and end to those who suffer under his reign as targeted deathlord is Mask of Winters and so liberating Thorns from his tyranny).
This is why you have conflict.  Do you shut off your Compassion, or do you shut off your Conviction?  You have to choose one.  You can't have both, if your conviction tells you kill someone you've already beat.

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More so, it's my char's motivation to vanquish all darkness.
If your character's motivation is to kill lots of people, then they probably should not have Compassion 5.  They're not compatible.

This isn't ambiguous; it's in the rules.  "A character must fail a compassion check to ... slay a defeated foe."  If you go around murdering ghosts, then you're failing compassion to "ignore the powerful abusing the helpless."  If you go around killing ghosts because they're ghosts, and they ask you to not kill them, then you have to fail Compassion to "ignore the pleas of the oppressed."

A character with 5 in every Virtue doesn't have the luxury of justifications.  Maybe they make them up, say this is my cause and it's what I live to do, but they know it's wrong, they know better, they don't want to do it.  That's why they spend Willpower: to drown out the part of their mind that is telling them this is not right.
« Last Edit: August 22, 2013, 08:29:07 AM by meikle »

Online Zaer Darkwail

Re: ->| EXALTED |<- "Should The Sun Not Rise"
« Reply #54 on: August 22, 2013, 08:44:25 AM »
I elaborate my char's motivation better; He does not destroy ghosts or demons because they are creature of darkness. He goes slay them if they are causing harm to others with their actions (so motivation is compassion driven as char cares about other people's blights with these beings). It also applies he would interfere with Guild merchant doing cruelties but he may use peaceful methods as he is aware how Guild works (so he would plea to merchant's greed over his compassion as he knows he has no compassion). But if something is unredeemably 'evil' as he views it and causes great deal of suffering, the soft gloves are off.

Anyways in the game where char is there was vote/decision in OOC was that the person who has two virtues (of same rating) conflicting can choose which virtue to follow without WP cost (so long they can justify their behavior properly or they have +2 more virtues pressing do one action while only one virtue would demand deny the action). If other virtue is superior (like Compassion 4 vs conviction 3), then compassion wins out and if want ignore compassion (and follow conviction) you need spend WP.

So high virtue people are conflicted often but they can choose what virtues they follow without burning WP to do so if they can justify their decision in satisfactory manner to virtue which they 'suppress' with other virtue (example delzhan person made promise not kill his wife's brother but brother then taunts him for duel so delzhan has both valor and temperance 3, so he chooses follow temperance to keep his word than follow valor to duel the brother). If single virtue is called to action they cannot ignore it if they get even 1 sux with it like normal.

At least this how in the other game it's understood.

Offline meikle

Re: ->| EXALTED |<- "Should The Sun Not Rise"
« Reply #55 on: August 22, 2013, 10:30:09 AM »
You understand, though, that this is a house rule and not the way the game is designed.  Exalted, as it is designed, does force people with high virtues to often find conflict between them and I feel confident that that is an intentional design decision.  It certainly takes a lot of the bite out of a character who is a paragon of every virtue if there is a clause that says, "Except not when it's hard or unpleasant."  High virtues are designed to have drawbacks, though I can understand that some tables aren't interested in that kind of drama.
« Last Edit: August 22, 2013, 10:32:01 AM by meikle »

Offline AndyZ

Re: ->| EXALTED |<- "Should The Sun Not Rise"
« Reply #56 on: August 22, 2013, 11:22:46 AM »
Everyone blissfully overlooks that Willpower has always been capped at 8 (unless a character has two virtues at 4) at character creation anyway.  Having two Virtues to constantly roll against / eat your WP and add limit is a pretty hefty cost for those last two dots.  The game describes such characters as "unreasonably intense."

Oh, definitely.  I'm not arguing the merits of taking such things.  It's more that, if you want your character to eventually go that route, you're far better off doing so at creation as per the standard rules.

Many games are designed so that you start out relatively normal and turn extreme.  Exalted is designed to encourage you to either start extreme or never go that route.

That's personally why I like the XP method.  If you want to start out with less Valor, for example, and build your way up throughout the game as more and more people die and you just can't bring yourself to stand idly by anymore, the hefty XP cost doesn't make that RP opportunity difficult.

It's kinda like how VtM is set up so that it's very difficult to go from being a sinner to a saint, because of the hefty XP costs of Humanity, and it reflects how the Beast drags you down to its level.

Offline RajahTopic starter

Re: ->| EXALTED |<- "Should The Sun Not Rise"
« Reply #57 on: August 22, 2013, 12:54:05 PM »
Everyone blissfully overlooks that Willpower has always been capped at 8 (unless a character has two virtues at 4) at character creation anyway.  Having two Virtues to constantly roll against / eat your WP and add limit is a pretty hefty cost for those last two dots.  The game describes such characters as "unreasonably intense."

Heroes always are, though, and it's much less a problem if you just play your virtues consistently. If you want a conniving poisoner, don't max Valor.

If you beat this Deathlord, you would have to fail a compassion check to kill it if you had Compassion 5.  You would probably hit a conflict between Conviction and Compassion and have to decide which one to blow WP on.

This would be true if it was some random human mercenary captain, but a Deathlord is a monstrous undead in constant suffering and madness due to its state. Returning it to Lethe is not a mercy in the sense that euthanasia is arguably a mercy, it's a metaphysical hard truth. Leaving him alive would force the Compassion check because seriously, no one wins in that circumstance, especially not the guy you just beat. Ghosts and undead aren't people, and there are different considerations involved; death means something very different to them.

Also, and this is important, that's if the Deathlord is helpless before you. If he's alive and kicking, you're defending the innocent, and you can channel Compassion to destroy him. Slaying DEFEATED foes is the Compassion issue. You don't check to kill someone in a lethal situation. They have to surrender or be made unable to continue the fight; so long as they're trying to end you, you're within Compassion to respond.

That's personally why I like the XP method.  If you want to start out with less Valor, for example, and build your way up throughout the game as more and more people die and you just can't bring yourself to stand idly by anymore, the hefty XP cost doesn't make that RP opportunity difficult.

I hate it because it strongly discourages that kind of character growth at all; that's why flat XP was invented, so you're not punished for caring about anything but more magic. Want to represent an increasingly heroic swordsman? That's fine, but with the 21xp you payed to raise your Valor from 3 to 5, I bought two Melee charms and a new bit of artifact gear so I'm a way better swordsman. Attributes are even more of a punishment. Flat XP says, "the mortal stuff is not as powerful or interesting as the magic stuff, so let's let the cost reflect that" and encourages you to consider spending some of your XP to represent character growth rather than pure magical power. Now raising Valor to 5 is only 6xp, and that's not a bad deal. Spending 12xp on four Ability dots at any rank is okay and makes me feel like I can have a character who learns in play, rather than starting as an expert and descending ever-deeper into mysticism alone.

I'm not actually a fan of the pure XP method WITHOUT flat because it means you don't even have the grace of character creation to build a character without thinking about the dot costs. When every dot of everything has to be weighed against everything else, it creates pressure to design far less whimsically or unusually and focus on what's going to work. Exalted isn't FATE, you know? I don't like having to leverage Virtue against competence.
« Last Edit: August 22, 2013, 01:27:45 PM by Rajah »

Offline meikle

Re: ->| EXALTED |<- "Should The Sun Not Rise"
« Reply #58 on: August 22, 2013, 01:13:12 PM »
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This would be true if it was some random human mercenary captain, but a Deathlord is a monstrous undead in constant suffering and madness due to its state. Returning it to Lethe is not a mercy in the sense that euthanasia is arguably a mercy, it's a metaphysical hard truth. Leaving him alive would force the Compassion check because seriously, no one wins in that circumstance, especially not the guy you just beat. Ghosts and undead aren't people, and there are different considerations involved; death means something very different to them.

I don't believe this is true.  Ghosts are absolutely people, as much as any other spirit is a person in Exalted.  The Deathlords are still alive because they want to be; they were given the option to become what they are, after all, and chose it willingly -- likewise, it's been suggested pretty straight-forwardly that a big part of why the Deathlords are so bad at their job is because they don't actually want to die and dive into Oblivion.  The Deathlords are not the Neverborn; save for the First and Forsaken Lion who is being intentionally tortured, they don't live in a state of constant suffering.  They're not suicidal.  The only reason most of them would fight to the death is because they can be reasonably certain that they'll just respawn (because Deathlords do that.)  Many of them would surrender before being killed, I think, because they're maybe a little crazy but they're also incredibly smart and value their (un)lives.

I don't think that characters who fight to their last dying breath are super realistic, and I think that a confrontation with a character as a significant as a deathlord would end without a post-combat event, though that's up to individual tables.  If I had a player at my table whose character was okay with using a sword that sends souls to Oblivion, though, I absolutely wouldn't let that character buy their Compassion up to 5 in the first place.

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Heroes always are, though, and it's much less a problem if you just play your virtues consistently.
Even among the Exalted, characters with multiple virtues at 4+ are considered unreasonably intense.  I know people want to have their cake and eat it too, but the Virtues were designed to be constraining, not just a way to get more boom from your Willpower expenditures.
« Last Edit: August 22, 2013, 01:19:53 PM by meikle »

Offline RajahTopic starter

Re: ->| EXALTED |<- "Should The Sun Not Rise"
« Reply #59 on: August 22, 2013, 01:22:51 PM »
I don't believe this is true.  Ghosts are absolutely people, as much as any other spirit is a person in Exalted.  The Deathlords are still alive because they want to be; they were given the option to become what they are, after all, and chose it willingly -- likewise, it's been suggested pretty straight-forwardly that a big part of why the Deathlords are so bad at their job is because they don't actually want to die and dive into Oblivion.  The Deathlords are not the Neverborn; save for the First and Forsaken Lion who is being intentionally tortured, they don't live in a state of constant suffering.

What they want doesn't matter. If the human mercenary captain wants you to kill him and end the Adorjan-instilled genocidal urge that drives him, you still check Compassion. However much ghosts and Deathlords want to live, they're Creatures of Death and they can't live; Lethe is not Oblivion, it's peace. Making a ghost deliberately should check Compassion. Letting one live is fine if it's a good ghost, but if you're enabling death and destruction - in the case of a Deathlord - the whole undead status and Lethe reality are different considerations than people get.

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I don't think that characters who fight to their last dying breath are super realistic, and I think that a confrontation with a character as a significant as a deathlord would end without a post-combat event, though that's up to individual tables.  If I had a player at my table whose character was okay with using a sword that sends souls to Oblivion, though, I absolutely wouldn't let that character buy their Compassion up to 5 in the first place.

I don't think characters who fight to their last breath are unrealistic; if their Valor is 3 or higher, I'd say they're prepared to die fighting unless they have something important to think about or you're especially horrifying. Certainly below that hey're more likely to surrender and certainly even a Valor 5 Deathlord could beg for its life, but the fight-to-the-death scenario shouldn't be that uncommon. Mass combat has rout checks, maybe personal combat should have something similar for NPCs only?

Oblivion and Lethe are not similar things. A Reaper Daiklave of You're-Reincarnating-Now sounds like an awesome sword for a Compassion 5 character; no life taken is ever subjected to more suffering.
« Last Edit: August 22, 2013, 01:25:15 PM by Rajah »

Offline meikle

Re: ->| EXALTED |<- "Should The Sun Not Rise"
« Reply #60 on: August 22, 2013, 01:25:50 PM »
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Oblivion and Lethe are not similar things. A Reaper Daiklave of You're-Reincarnating-Now sounds like an awesome sword for a Compassion 5 character; no life taken is ever subjected to more suffering.

His character is running around using a sword that sends souls to Oblivion.  It will only stop if he raises his Compassion to 5.  At my table, I would make "is comfortable with sending souls to Oblivion" preclude "raises compassion to 5."  This is not me confusing Oblivion for Lethe, this is me actually reading what Zaer wrote.

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What they want doesn't matter.

When you can quote me something that says "By the way, ghosts aren't people and aren't subject to Compassion," I'll believe you.  However, "You're a ghost, so what you want doesn't matter, and I'm going to fucking kill you because you don't count" sounds like the opposite of a Compassionate kind of behavior.  Ghosts are single-souled beings, which makes them not-people I guess in the same way that the Unconquered Sun is not-a-person.
« Last Edit: August 22, 2013, 01:28:10 PM by meikle »

Offline AndyZ

Re: ->| EXALTED |<- "Should The Sun Not Rise"
« Reply #61 on: August 22, 2013, 01:27:37 PM »
Oblivion and Lethe are not similar things. A Reaper Daiklave of You're-Reincarnating-Now sounds like an awesome sword for a Compassion 5 character; no life taken is ever subjected to more suffering.

Going to vehemently disagree with this.  Even if you're a Zenith who just sends everyone to Lethe, you can't claim that you're going to just kill everyone.  For one, that person might have family.  Are you going to go around killing everyone who knew the person so that Lethe will make them forget?

Online Zaer Darkwail

Re: ->| EXALTED |<- "Should The Sun Not Rise"
« Reply #62 on: August 22, 2013, 01:32:43 PM »
Well as pointer the Ashbringer, as artifact is called, judges killed target send to Oblivion or Lethe as tainted holy artifact (it would send deathlords to oblivion example without doubt, it can send mortal souls to Oblivion if sword judges person wicked asshole). Where as once you reach compassion 5 (while other virtues also maxed) will send now any soul to Lethe when artifact is purified (it can rob souls which are pre-destined go to Oblivion like deathknights are example or nephwracks).

Anyways I got now concept; A Defiler which takes some traits from Sylar. Either choosing Adorjan, TED or Malfeas as favored yozi (kind bit coin toss so I let folks give me suggestions).

When you can quote me something that says "By the way, ghosts aren't people and aren't subject to Compassion," I'll believe you.  However, "You're a ghost, so what you want doesn't matter, and I'm going to fucking kill you because you don't count" sounds like the opposite of a Compassionate kind of behavior.  Ghosts are single-souled beings, which makes them not-people I guess in the same way that the Unconquered Sun is not-a-person.

Anyone who has studied occult knows that ghosts are unnatural manifestation in the system where souls should go to Lethe. Because neverborn there is glitch in the system. Of course you should not hunt each and every ghost (example kind grandmother lingering arond to give guidance to still living grand children a high compassion person would let linger until she is ready to go). But if a ghost of a serial rapist/killer haunts and kills the living, the said person is still a monster in death as it was in life and so compassion driven person should seek out end of the suffering of others.

So far as I understand it's fine two virtues conflict and forces choose burn WP but the virtue itself should not double conflict with itself even with high ratings (and Compassion in theory can do that unless your forced choose how you define your Compassion to work in given scenario). A high compassion person would wait and consider their actions before they make judgment if the serial rapist/killer then vouches for redeeming itself. Where as lower compassion person does zero fucks about it.

Offline RajahTopic starter

Re: ->| EXALTED |<- "Should The Sun Not Rise"
« Reply #63 on: August 22, 2013, 01:35:56 PM »
Going to vehemently disagree with this.  Even if you're a Zenith who just sends everyone to Lethe, you can't claim that you're going to just kill everyone.  For one, that person might have family.  Are you going to go around killing everyone who knew the person so that Lethe will make them forget?

Not even vaguely my intention, my apologies if it looked that way; I mean that, when you DO have to kill, it's done in the most merciful way possible.

His character is running around using a sword that sends souls to Oblivion.  It will only stop if he raises his Compassion to 5.  At my table, I would make "is comfortable with sending souls to Oblivion" preclude "raises compassion to 5."  This is not me confusing Oblivion for Lethe, this is me actually reading what Zaer wrote.

Right, my bad on the misread. Still, so long as he doesn't use the sword to send souls to Oblivion, I don't see why a Compassionate character wouldn't carry it if only to keep it safe from other hands. Artifacts can't be destroyed (without extraordinary effort) so if he's looking for a way to purify the weapon, what's not Compassionate about that? Carrying isn't using, and if he's Compassion 3 he doesn't want to be using it all the time. Tormented heroes with dark powers are a thing, you know? Maybe not our first conception of Dragonblooded but it's not like the Exalted shouldn't have range when it comes to design.

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When you can quote me something that says "By the way, ghosts aren't people and aren't subject to Compassion," I'll believe you.  However, "You're a ghost, so what you want doesn't matter, and I'm going to fucking kill you because you don't count" sounds like the opposite of a Compassionate kind of behavior.  Ghosts are single-souled beings, which makes them not-people I guess in the same way that the Unconquered Sun is not-a-person.

Virtues are internal. What other people think or what is external. What anyone else wants is irrelevant to your Virtues. If your Abyssal husband wants you to humiliate and abuse him, you don't get a Compassion pass unless he invents some horrific Abyssal mindfu to warp your Intimacy into letting you do that. If a ghost wants to continue to eat people, it doesn't matter, sending it to Lethe is the right thing to do. Letting a ghost exist - not live, they're dead already - who doesn't want to hurt people is a grey area.

They're sentient, but they're incomplete echoes of people, not people. They don't have lives. They can't be slain. They don't enter Compassion as a value. Humans do. Demons do, sort of - if you know they just reform unless you Ghost Eating Technique them it's a grey area again - and the same with gods. But the undead are already, y'know.
« Last Edit: August 22, 2013, 01:38:04 PM by Rajah »

Offline meikle

Re: ->| EXALTED |<- "Should The Sun Not Rise"
« Reply #64 on: August 22, 2013, 01:40:13 PM »
Just because something is unnatural doesn't make it not a person.

If you feel that compassion conflicts with itself, you're arguing that the rules as they're written are wrong.  Compassion aids you in fighting for good; it also stays your sword against those who ask for mercy.  If you want it to stop doing that, you need magic.  That is how the game is designed.

Most ghosts are the former case, the not-actually-hostile-to-anyone variety.  They're just stuck, but they're alive, and usually they're that way because they want to be.  "It doesn't matter what they want because they're a glitch!" isn't something that someone with compassion would say, definitely not someone with Compassion 5.

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Artifacts can't be destroyed (without extraordinary effort) so if he's looking for a way to purify the weapon, what's not Compassionate about that?
Artifacts can't be destroyed without intentional effort; that's an important distinction.  You can't break a daiklave by trying to kill the person wielding it; you can break a daiklave by trying to break a daiklave.

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What anyone else wants is irrelevant to your Virtues.
You're trying to tell me that Compassion makes it okay to kill people because it doesn't care that they want to live.

Ghosts are undead.  The person that they were is dead.  The ghost is not dead, as evidenced by the fact that it is walking around and thinking and talking to you and living its life.  I mean, okay, have fun with your psychotic game of Exalted where Virtues don't matter and you ignore them to do whatever you want to do anyway.
« Last Edit: August 22, 2013, 01:41:37 PM by meikle »

Online Zaer Darkwail

Re: ->| EXALTED |<- "Should The Sun Not Rise"
« Reply #65 on: August 22, 2013, 01:52:10 PM »
Ok, my bad regarding the compassionate person not caring about glitch (as in effect compassion 5 exalt would care about raksha even if they are technically 'not real' and can change anytime from sweetheart into monstrous killers). But I still argue that virtue cannot conflict with itself twice or thrice over same issue.

Compassion 5 hero who faces a deathlord who it beats down to last inch of it's unlife and then deathlord begs for it's life (which in itself is epic achievement). The said deathlord is driven by vengeance, which you can partly sympathize as in first age the deathlord was a solar who was betrayed and then in death locked up in prison of souls and was tempted by neverborn to become a deathlord so they can become ghosts and so escape the place and then seek their vendetta and own goals.

But the deathlords serve neverborn and reason why you hunted him down is because it had caused lot of suffering on you, on Creation and on people whom you care about. As compassion 5 your heart bleeds upon witnessing suffering from strangers.

So your saying that Compassion 5 person should be burn WP to kill deathlord.....but in same token he needs burn WP to spare the deathlord (because your ignoring call of compassion to stop suffering of others) and then burn WP again each and every day of his life when he sees the deathlord continues cause suffering to other people! So my argument is this; virtue cannot conflict with itself and if there are more compassion driven reasons to slay deathlord than spare it alive, then you would not need check for compassion.

True that 'greater good' virtue enhancing charms exists, but I would argue they are only good to help ignore compassion when it's not conflicting with itself.

Offline RajahTopic starter

Re: ->| EXALTED |<- "Should The Sun Not Rise"
« Reply #66 on: August 22, 2013, 01:56:12 PM »
Ghosts are undead.  The person that they were is dead.  The ghost is not dead, as evidenced by the fact that it is walking around and thinking and talking to you and living its life.  I mean, okay, have fun with your psychotic game of Exalted where Virtues don't matter and you ignore them to do whatever you want to do anyway.

You seem a little hostile here. I don't mean to offend.

I'm not saying that you're definitely wrong about this, I'm presenting an argument. Just an argument, it's not personal. Ghosts are under a chapter titled "the Dead" in Exalted Core, and they're explicitly not living; to my mind, that complicates questions that involve ending their existence and what it means. I think you mean living the way I mean existing. My argument is specifically that because they are not possessed of life, they are not valid considerations for the part of Compassion that deals with killing. When I say they're not people I don't mean they're not sapient and independent, I mean they're metaphysical echoes of things that were people and I feel that that differentiates them from that category. The ghost of Cindy Lou Tragicdeath is neither Cindy Lou Tragicdeath nor Queen Maryanne of the Happy Dead, even if it calls itself that; it's a ghost, a shadow.

I don't personally believe that believing the undead should be sent to their peaceful, natural return to the cycle of life and death qualifies my games as psychotic, or means that Virtue doesn't matter, or that I just ignore it and do what I want. Those are kinda harsh words. I'm saying, I don't think the undead ping Compassion. That's all.
« Last Edit: August 22, 2013, 02:00:05 PM by Rajah »

Offline meikle

Re: ->| EXALTED |<- "Should The Sun Not Rise"
« Reply #67 on: August 22, 2013, 02:05:39 PM »
Right... your argument is, "A soul isn't a person if it used to have a body that was destroyed."  The core of your argument is "Ghosts don't count because they're dead," as if in Exalted being dead stops someone from being a person.

Here is my stance:  If you need to justify why it's okay to kill someone/humiliate someone/ignore the pleas of someone impoverished because "they don't count," your character is probably not a good candidate for being a Compassion 5 character.

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So your saying that Compassion 5 person should be burn WP to kill deathlord.....but in same token he needs burn WP to spare the deathlord (because your ignoring call of compassion to stop suffering of others) and then burn WP again each and every day of his life when he sees the deathlord continues cause suffering to other people! So my argument is this; virtue cannot conflict with itself and if there are more compassion driven reasons to slay deathlord than spare it alive, then you would not need check for compassion.

You could come up with a more creative way to handle the problem than concluding that murder is the only acceptable way to deal with a bad guy.  The Deathlords are people capable of thought and independent action.  They can be persuaded to change their behavior; killing them is not the only answer.  If your character can't think of solutions beside destroying things they don't like, they are probably not a Compassion 5 character.

Even Theion, the King of Kings, the Ruler of Everything, was able to be brought down by the Exalted host without resorting to killing him (unless you feel that the transition from Theion to Malfeas was the same as killing him, I guess, but that's probably a different discussion.)
« Last Edit: August 22, 2013, 02:10:09 PM by meikle »

Offline RajahTopic starter

Re: ->| EXALTED |<- "Should The Sun Not Rise"
« Reply #68 on: August 22, 2013, 02:12:36 PM »
Right... your argument is, "A soul isn't a person if it used to have a body that was destroyed."  The core of your argument is "Ghosts don't count because they're dead," as if in Exalted being dead stops someone from being a person.

Half a soul. Yes, this is my argument. Being EDIT: a ghost (being dead covers a somewhat wider range of entities) in Exalted, in my opinion, stops you from being a person. You become a once-person. Humans are people; ghosts are not people.

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Here is my stance:  If you need to justify why it's okay to kill someone/humiliate someone/ignore the pleas of someone impoverished because "they don't count," your character is probably not a good candidate for being a Compassion 5 character.

That's not really a helpful stance because I'm not justifying any of those things. No killing, no humiliating, no ignoring pleas. I think Compassion 5's specific ruling on killing helpless enemies counts for neomah and blood apes alike. I think it counts for tyrants and paupers. For gods and the Leech Gods, for Lilith and Desus, for the Yozis and the raksha...

...just not for the undead, because they're dead. You don't kill them, you send them to Lethe. They're beyond being killed. You make it sound like I'm advocating general genocide. I'm just saying ghosts are things that should not exist, and sending their souls to the peace all living things deserve is an act of Compassion, not its opposite.
« Last Edit: August 22, 2013, 02:16:16 PM by Rajah »

Offline meikle

Re: ->| EXALTED |<- "Should The Sun Not Rise"
« Reply #69 on: August 22, 2013, 02:14:57 PM »
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Half a soul. Yes, this is my argument. Being dead in Exalted, in my opinion, stops you from being a person. You become a once-person. The Yozis are people; the Neverborn are not people. Humans are people; ghosts are not people.
One soul.  Humans in Exalted have two, and ghosts are one of them.  Other one-souled beings include the Incarna, all demons, and all elementals.  The distinction you're making is one you made up; it isn't drawn from the source material.  Ghosts don't have the same drive that humans do (that's the soul that turns into Hungry Ghosts and is separated from standard ghosts), but they're still people: they have cultures, concerns, hopes and dreams and goals.  The fact that they're separated from their flesh doesn't seem like a strong reason for them to be "not people"; ghosts are spirits, and in Exalted, spirits are people.  The fact that ghosts can innately channel essence means that the Adorjan Charm that lets Adorjan stop seeing humans as people doesn't apply to them, which is kind of fun to consider.

Again, same point I made to Zaer: it's fine to run your games this way if you like, but it is not the game according to the rules in the book.

I don't think "you shouldn't exist" makes it okay to kill someone -- and I don't think that splitting hairs on the topic of putting a conscious, self-determining creature down is the kind of thinking that a Compassion 5 character should embrace.
« Last Edit: August 22, 2013, 02:20:44 PM by meikle »

Offline RajahTopic starter

Re: ->| EXALTED |<- "Should The Sun Not Rise"
« Reply #70 on: August 22, 2013, 02:19:49 PM »
One soul.  Humans in Exalted have two, and ghosts are one of them.  Other one-souled beings include the Incarna, all demons, and all elementals.  The distinction you're making is one you made up; it isn't drawn from the source material.

Again, same point I made to Zaer: it's fine to run your games this way if you like, but it is not the game according to the rules in the book.

Same point I've made before, perhaps more subtly: it's not the game according to your interpretation, which is fine, but I feel it's a perfectly valid interpretation to say "the Exalted Core and assorted supplements clearly delineate ghosts from being living beings" and then to follow with "therefore they cannot be slain". I don't mean to devalue your position, but you're taking an absolute stance which really isn't feasible because it's not crystal-clear. We have the language of slay and we have the language of no longer alive.

I would like to apologize for continuing the "what is a people" argument at all. That was a bad idea and I think you'll agree there's gonna be no way of determining that outside of personal metrics because Exalted never actually goes into that; it's like morality, something deliberately untouched. I feel your interpretation there is valid. I still like mine, but I see no issue with your conclusion from an objective stance. "What does it mean to slay" is the relevant question, specifically "can you do it to something that doesn't live."

My apologies for half soul. Half of a complete entity then, a category which includes only ghosts.
« Last Edit: August 22, 2013, 02:23:29 PM by Rajah »

Offline meikle

Re: ->| EXALTED |<- "Should The Sun Not Rise"
« Reply #71 on: August 22, 2013, 02:23:16 PM »
My apologies for half soul. Half of a complete entity then, a category which includes only ghosts.
A ghost is a complete hun soul or complete po soul.  Again: they're half of what makes a human, but humans are made of two complete things.

Again: Splitting hairs to say "It's okay to make this self-aware, self-determining creatures not exist anymore" is not something that reflects compassion -- and going through Lethe, not dying, is where Person A is wiped out and Person B is created.  There is a continuity of self in Exalted that ends with Lethe or Oblivion; that self remains in a ghost.

Anyway, we're not going to get anywhere.  In your game, you can have your Compassion 5 dudes who wander around doing ghosts Execution Style and I'll keep running mine where I hit players in the head with a newspaper for trying to pull that kind of thing.
« Last Edit: August 22, 2013, 02:25:48 PM by meikle »

Online Zaer Darkwail

Re: ->| EXALTED |<- "Should The Sun Not Rise"
« Reply #72 on: August 22, 2013, 02:25:34 PM »
You could come up with a more creative way to handle the problem than concluding that murder is the only acceptable way to deal with a person who is causing problems.

Okay, let's go through the list;

A) Imprison enemy all forever where it cannot cause any harm to anyone
= Compassion check as imprisonment to all eternity is cruel punishment on anyone. Deathlords do not age, they don't die nor they need eat nor drink. They do not die unless using charms or artifacts.

B) Forcibly redeem a person who seeks willingly cause harm and destruction in the world to achieve his goals (and I think most deathlords are willpower 8 and some even have conviction 5).
= Compassion check as breaking a will and forcing radical change upon someone is monstrously evil social-fu action in it's core even when it's done for good. As no matter of NMI can change deathlord from their motivation so you need UMI effects hammered on him.

C) Let his foe go freely and threaten with punishment if he does his actions again.
= Leads to go back square 1 and forces willpower burn each time a unredeemed deathlord strikes again (and he will and he seeks make you suffer greatly as revenge from humiliation it received) because your Compassion kicks you on the nuts being such a idiot in believing deathlord would learn it's lesson and take your threat seriously (or deathlord awaits until you die and then uses necromancy capture your ghost and make you his bitch, either way your screwed).

Any further ideas how solve the issue besides sending deathlord onto Lethe? A Lethe which cleanses his soul from all negative memories, gives bliss and then erases all traces of personality from soul and sends it to new life which can be better than the one deathlord led? Your saying a compassion 5 Zenith priestess who works as ghost exorcists should roll compassion each time she sends ghosts to lethe who have no reason to linger behind (or linger because of negative influence and they inflict harm to the living)?

Sending ghosts to lethe is not murdering them as they had been already killed/died. Sending ghost to lethe is considered ultimate act of goodness and considering it's the anima power of Zenith may hint that Sol Invictus (who is paragon of compassion of the setting) considers the act holy and compassionate act (he would not had given Zeniths such power if he would consider it as act of cruelty). Destroying ghost (and the soul) with ghost-eating technique would call for compassion check (as it does not send soul to peace but purely vaporizes it out from existence).

However there is clear canon (if take Ink Monkeys as canon and the White Wolf has said they consider stuff from Ink Monkeys as canon even if they did not write it) reference that Sol Invictus can create ghosts from virtuous people by making them as righteous dead (they reside in Daystar). Some souls could be promoted to be unique heroic spirits (a kind to angels in the setting) from especially heroic souls which Sol Invictus paid attention to before they died (also to consider; every solar is tied to go lethe directly and never become a ghost unless they made deals like deathlords did as their case is unique thanks Jade Prison situation). But it mentions if they fail their test to become one, they are send to Lethe so it means Sol Invictus himself considers the act going Lethe as divine blessing reward which comes at end of your life (before your reincarnated as a soul with no memories from last life).

So, god of virtue (which includes Compassion) more than one ways conveys his will and design that sending souls to lethe (or ghosts) is compassionate act.

Offline meikle

Re: ->| EXALTED |<- "Should The Sun Not Rise"
« Reply #73 on: August 22, 2013, 02:27:27 PM »
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Okay, let's go through the list;
Yes.  It's all very difficult.

You could just spend the one willpower and kill them.  That's why the option is there.  It's not expensive.  It's not demanding.  What it is is a way of saying, "My character doesn't want to kill people who have surrendered no matter how much they hurt other people, but she's going to grit her teeth and do it because even if she knows it's wrong, she can't justify the alternative."

The same way that a character with Valor 5 might spend that one willpower to not seek retribution on a six year old orphan who insulted her haircut.

For what it's worth, the Ink Monkeys stuff was written by White Wolf authors.  Two of the people who did that stuff are now the lead designers on Third Edition.  A lot of the Ink Monkeys stuff was terrible though and I'd say most of the Daystar stuff falls under that umbrella, but again, different discussion.

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Compassion check as breaking a will and forcing radical change upon someone is monstrously evil social-fu action in it's core even when it's done for good.
Using Social Magic does not, on its own, trigger a Compassion check.  If your ST holds to the whole "All social magic is evil mind control," then I guess it might, but the whole "social magic is mind control" thing is probably one of the worst things to come out of Exalted 2e.
« Last Edit: August 22, 2013, 02:35:52 PM by meikle »

Offline RajahTopic starter

Re: ->| EXALTED |<- "Should The Sun Not Rise"
« Reply #74 on: August 22, 2013, 02:30:21 PM »
A ghost is a complete hun soul or complete po soul.  Again: they're half of what makes a human, but humans are made of two complete things.

Again: Splitting hairs to say "It's okay to make this self-aware, self-determining creatures not exist anymore" is not something that reflects compassion.

As I just edited, this is not a winnable argument. I don't even think ghosts count as self-determining; they've been determined, in one sense, and while they have agency I'd even go so far as to question their free will - can an entity made from another make its own choices, or are they dictated by its nature? Will Cindy Lou Tragicdeath's ghost act in a way that she would not in the same circumstance, with one of her souls temporarily suppressed? It's philosophically interesting but I don't think either of us can be "right" about it, which is why I'm phrasing in questions and not statements now.

I would like to note that splitting hairs to figure out what the game means isn't the same as a character doing it; the character doesn't have this dilemma, I do, and I'm not dealing with real things, I'm setting the boundaries of a game of make-believe. I don't think Compassion enters into it until the issue is settled and a character has beliefs and actions.

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Anyway, we're not going to get anywhere.  In your game, you can have your Compassion 5 dudes who wander around doing ghosts Execution Style and I'll keep running mine where I hit players in the head with a newspaper for trying to pull that kind of thing.

I could say something mean too, but I'm not, because I don't think that would be reasonable in this circumstance. I'd appreciate if you drop the snipes.