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Author Topic: Soldier killed in terror attacks in woolwich  (Read 1286 times)

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Online SilkTopic starter

Soldier killed in terror attacks in woolwich
« on: May 23, 2013, 09:37:54 AM »
As we thought things were calming down, in the middle of the day on a busy street in southwest London a off duty soldier in a help for heroes tshirt was chased down the road by a car, knocked down, then attacked by two suspected Muslim extremists with machetes, decapitated then dragged his body into the middle of the road before being fired on by Trojan police officers, the two suspects are now in hospital and we here in the UK are very decided on the matter, just thought I'd bring it here for discussion

Offline Beguile's Mistress

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Re: Soldier killed in terror attacks in woolwich
« Reply #1 on: May 23, 2013, 09:51:30 AM »
Could you provide some links to reports on this please.

Offline Silverfyre

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Re: Soldier killed in terror attacks in woolwich
« Reply #2 on: May 23, 2013, 09:59:00 AM »
From a UK news outlet source (there are some pretty bloody pictures present, just a fair warning):

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2329089/Woolwich-attack-Two-men-hack-soldier-wearing-Help-Heroes-T-shirt-death-machetes-suspected-terror-attack.html

What perplexes me is that people just keep walking around, oblivious to what was going on.  The guy ranting at the camera is clutching a bloodied knife with blood-covered hands near a stabbed, dead body in the middle of the road.  Some people did confront them and the police did intervene (timing wise, I didn't catch it) but still, you'd think the people would have been a bit more freaked out by this whole thing. 

It's terrible regardless.

Offline Scribbles

Re: Soldier killed in terror attacks in woolwich
« Reply #3 on: May 23, 2013, 10:17:48 AM »
Before I say anything, I'd just like to express my condolences...

That said, I was reading through what the terrorist said and was surprisingly taken aback...

His methods are indefensible, backwards, barbaric and gruesome but it's difficult to fault his reasoning. They see themselves as protecting their land, avenging their dead and bringing the fight to the enemies soil. Perhaps it's time the developed world considered leaving the developing one to its own machinations, to sort itself out and find its own footing? It might take time but I feel that meddling is hobbling development (perhaps for all involved) rather than furthering it...

For now, this is just my initial reaction to a brief skim, I haven't had time to read over everything properly.
« Last Edit: May 23, 2013, 10:20:25 AM by Scribbles »

Offline Avis habilis

Re: Soldier killed in terror attacks in woolwich
« Reply #4 on: May 23, 2013, 10:20:18 AM »
... you'd think the people would have been a bit more freaked out by this whole thing.

My money's on it not registering even when they looked right at them. One person told a radio interviewer that when he & his wife first came on the scene they thought the attackers were trying to help him up. Your average urban pedestrian would never even imagine a violent daylight knife attack is possible, so their brain just wouldn't see it.

Offline Silverfyre

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Re: Soldier killed in terror attacks in woolwich
« Reply #5 on: May 23, 2013, 10:24:42 AM »
True enough and a good point. Shock is something that makes people react on different levels.

Before I say anything, I'd just like to express my condolences...

That said, I was reading through what the terrorist said and was surprisingly taken aback...

His methods are indefensible, backwards, barbaric and gruesome but it's difficult to fault his reasoning. They see themselves as protecting their land, avenging their dead and bringing the fight to the enemies soil. Perhaps it's time the developed world considered leaving the developing one to its own machinations, to sort itself out and find its own footing? It might take time but I feel that meddling is hobbling development (perhaps for all involved) rather than furthering it...

For now, this is just my initial reaction to a brief skim, I haven't had time to read over everything properly.
.

When reasoning comes down to "let's murder this man in the streets in front of people and rant crazily at a crowd and camera", I would say it is not that difficult to find fault in it all.  Murdering someone in cold blood is not something you can validate, regardless of who does it.  Politics and the argument of whether imperialism is truly dead or not and what constitutes an "invasion" versus "adding allies" can be set aside for another time when someone is brutally slaughtered in the streets in the name of a protest.  Simply disgusting.

Offline Scribbles

Re: Soldier killed in terror attacks in woolwich
« Reply #6 on: May 23, 2013, 10:33:32 AM »
My money's on it not registering even when they looked right at them. One person told a radio interviewer that when he & his wife first came on the scene they thought the attackers were trying to help him up. Your average urban pedestrian would never even imagine a violent daylight knife attack is possible, so their brain just wouldn't see it.

I hear there was little they could do even after they realized...

They have fairly strict gun control laws, so there isn't exactly an armed person around every corner. I think it would take a fair amount of bravery to charge at someone, whose covered in blood and holding a cleaver, without a weapon of some kind.

When reasoning comes down to "let's murder this man in the streets in front of people and rant crazily at a crowd and camera", I would say it is not that difficult to find fault in it all.  Murdering someone in cold blood is not something you can validate, regardless of who does it.  Politics and the argument of whether imperialism is truly dead or not and what constitutes an "invasion" versus "adding allies" can be set aside for another time when someone is brutally slaughtered in the streets in the name of a protest.  Simply disgusting.


They specifically picked a soldier -- to them, they've taken down an enemy combatant. It was cowardly and sick, but to me it sounds like a response to an invasion on their own soil, one which they claim has killed innocents, not just soldiers, of their land. We all know that a lot worse is happening over the border compared to the death of a single soldier.

I need to clear up that I'm not defending them, I'll never condone such acts, I'm just torn on the issue at the moment since it seems like the developing world is answering to an attack by the developed world.

Offline Healergirl


Offline Shjade

Re: Soldier killed in terror attacks in woolwich
« Reply #8 on: May 23, 2013, 11:17:13 AM »
Yeah, people ignoring/not registering what was happening doesn't really surprise me, but the ladies who stopped to apparently have a conversation with those guys do.

Offline Moraline

Re: Soldier killed in terror attacks in woolwich
« Reply #9 on: May 23, 2013, 12:20:47 PM »
What's scary is that acts like this turn average people against average innocent people of middle eastern decent. Which might be what they want to do. Acts like this are just terrible.

Offline Healergirl

Re: Soldier killed in terror attacks in woolwich
« Reply #10 on: May 23, 2013, 12:28:25 PM »
Moraline,

This is exactly what they want to do.  Provoke a response that will "radicalize the masses" in their favor.

Offline Cyrano Johnson

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Re: Soldier killed in terror attacks in woolwich
« Reply #11 on: May 23, 2013, 12:30:14 PM »
I wouldn't be surprised to find that the political rhetoric is ultimately window-dressing and that one or both of these guys are just flat-out mentally ill. This story reminds me of the attack on a Greyhound bus in Canada where a guy sat down with a random passenger, started chatting with him and then stabbed and decapitated him. There was a similar kind of impervious-to-reality behaviour: the guy was playing with the head and taunting the cops when they came for him.

Offline Neysha

Re: Soldier killed in terror attacks in woolwich
« Reply #12 on: May 23, 2013, 12:50:13 PM »
Sounds more like its a twisted version of a hate crime as opposed to a terrorist attack IMHO.

Offline Healergirl

Re: Soldier killed in terror attacks in woolwich
« Reply #13 on: May 23, 2013, 12:54:35 PM »
Cyrano,

Terrorism and mental illness can go hand in hand.  many suicicide bombers are recruited from those with a tenuous grasp on normality. Someone primed these men to do what they did.  they may not fit your definition of terrorist, but whoever loaded, cocked, and sent them out will, I think.

Neysha,

The line between terrorism and whatever definition of hate crime you use... a distinction without a difference in my eyes.



edited for numerous typos.  sigh. 
« Last Edit: May 23, 2013, 01:41:31 PM by Healergirl »

Offline consortium11

Re: Soldier killed in terror attacks in woolwich
« Reply #14 on: May 23, 2013, 01:12:47 PM »
Before I say anything, I'd just like to express my condolences...

That said, I was reading through what the terrorist said and was surprisingly taken aback...

His methods are indefensible, backwards, barbaric and gruesome but it's difficult to fault his reasoning. They see themselves as protecting their land, avenging their dead and bringing the fight to the enemies soil. Perhaps it's time the developed world considered leaving the developing one to its own machinations, to sort itself out and find its own footing? It might take time but I feel that meddling is hobbling development (perhaps for all involved) rather than furthering it...

For now, this is just my initial reaction to a brief skim, I haven't had time to read over everything properly.

I struggle to see why someone who's British born (of Nigerian heritage) can class Iraq and/or Afghanistan as "their" land or that they're avenging "their" dead. There is an Islamic fundamentalist movement/terrorist group in Nigeria (Boko Haram) but their efforts are generally targeted at the Nigerian government and have a distinct domestic as opposed to international flavour.

Offline Scribbles

Re: Soldier killed in terror attacks in woolwich
« Reply #15 on: May 23, 2013, 01:26:15 PM »
I struggle to see why someone who's British born (of Nigerian heritage) can class Iraq and/or Afghanistan as "their" land or that they're avenging "their" dead. There is an Islamic fundamentalist movement/terrorist group in Nigeria (Boko Haram) but their efforts are generally targeted at the Nigerian government and have a distinct domestic as opposed to international flavour.

I've seen people who are devoted to countries that they've never even stepped foot in; It's actually a common occurrence so I'm surprised you've never met any yourself. Personally, while I might favour certain places, I don't feel a connection to any country. As far as I'm concerned, the entire world is my playground.

Offline Healergirl

Re: Soldier killed in terror attacks in woolwich
« Reply #16 on: May 23, 2013, 01:40:15 PM »
+1 to what Consortium!1 said, and I've met people like that, just don't understand the rationale for their thiking.  And since the ties in questin are emotional, I suppose rationale  is a concept tht does not aply.

Offline Scribbles

Re: Soldier killed in terror attacks in woolwich
« Reply #17 on: May 23, 2013, 02:03:01 PM »
And since the ties in questin are emotional, I suppose rationale  is a concept tht does not aply.

I think that sums it up nicely.

Online Callie Del Noire

Re: Soldier killed in terror attacks in woolwich
« Reply #18 on: May 23, 2013, 02:30:36 PM »
What's scary is that acts like this turn average people against average innocent people of middle eastern decent. Which might be what they want to do. Acts like this are just terrible.

That is EXACTLY what they want. Just like Charles Manson wanted to do with the killings he and his 'family' wanted to do. The intent of the killings were to ignite a race war between whites and blacks in the US. These men want to trigger such a response in the area, breaking down the lines of communication between their community and the rest of the area. They hope a violent response back against will show that they were 'right' and bring others out to strike out. Not exactly a rational response..

Offline consortium11

Re: Soldier killed in terror attacks in woolwich
« Reply #19 on: May 23, 2013, 02:57:05 PM »
I've seen people who are devoted to countries that they've never even stepped foot in; It's actually a common occurrence so I'm surprised you've never met any yourself. Personally, while I might favour certain places, I don't feel a connection to any country. As far as I'm concerned, the entire world is my playground.

+1 to what Consortium!1 said, and I've met people like that, just don't understand the rationale for their thiking.  And since the ties in questin are emotional, I suppose rationale  is a concept tht does not aply.

Are we really suggesting that the (technically alleged) perpetrators in this case had some deep connection or devotion to Iraq or Afghanistan in and of themselves?

I think it was pretty clear what he was alluding to in the video; the idea of a unified Islam, that an attack on one Muslim is an attack on all, that has become become fairly prevalent in a post-9/11 world. When he's talking about "our lands" he's talking about supposedly Islamic lands and the connection is he himself being a Muslim as opposed to him being connected to Iraq and Afghanistan beyond that.

The reason I pick it up is that it's pretty much a ludicrous idea. The first is in what other circumstances do we view a country as being a religion's lands? Do Catholics view Spain, Italy, Bolivia etc as "their" lands on account of being majority Catholic? Do Protestants do the same with Scandinavia? Hindu's Nepal and India? The only possible exception is Judaism and Isreal... but that's as much an ethnicity position as a religious one. The second is that even if we do view countries as being the "land" of the predominant religion it's still ludicrous to suggest this then gives justification. The perpetrators in this case had no connection with "their lands" beyond sharing a religion with many of the inhabitants. If a British Buddhist decided to attack people from Bangladesh would we see it as solid reasoning to point out the oppression of Buddhists in Bangladesh (while condemning the act itself)? Would we do the same for any other religion? Did we see the Russian/Georgian conflict as being a battle between Russian and Georgian Orthodoxy? Did we see the US interventions in South America as being a Protestant (which is the single largest religious block in the US) vs Catholic conflict.

I could perhaps see Scribbles point if the perpetrators had some connection to Iraq and Afghanistan beyond religion. Then they may well actually be talking about "their lands" (albeit this would still not offer justification). This group aren't and unlike Scribbles I can certainly fault his reasoning.

Online SilkTopic starter

Re: Soldier killed in terror attacks in woolwich
« Reply #20 on: May 23, 2013, 03:04:14 PM »
Regardless of motive we can be sure these guys will spend about ten years in comfortable British jail given new identities and released back into the public, all at the taxpayers expense of course.

Offline Scribbles

Re: Soldier killed in terror attacks in woolwich
« Reply #21 on: May 23, 2013, 04:05:52 PM »
Are we really suggesting that the (technically alleged) perpetrators in this case had some deep connection or devotion to Iraq or Afghanistan in and of themselves?

I donít see any reason to close our eyes to that possibility. We might as well try understand their rational although I understand why many are opposed to such thoughts. Honestly, thatís basically the reasoning he was yelling into the camera so unless we have something to dismiss their words, itís difficult to at least not consider they might have been truthful.

Quote
I think it was pretty clear what he was alluding to in the video; the idea of a unified Islam, that an attack on one Muslim is an attack on all, that has become become fairly prevalent in a post-9/11 world. When he's talking about "our lands" he's talking about supposedly Islamic lands and the connection is he himself being a Muslim as opposed to him being connected to Iraq and Afghanistan beyond that.

The reason I pick it up is that it's pretty much a ludicrous idea. The first is in what other circumstances do we view a country as being a religion's lands? Do Catholics view Spain, Italy, Bolivia etc as "their" lands on account of being majority Catholic? Do Protestants do the same with Scandinavia? Hindu's Nepal and India? The only possible exception is Judaism and Isreal... but that's as much an ethnicity position as a religious one. The second is that even if we do view countries as being the "land" of the predominant religion it's still ludicrous to suggest this then gives justification. The perpetrators in this case had no connection with "their lands" beyond sharing a religion with many of the inhabitants. If a British Buddhist decided to attack people from Bangladesh would we see it as solid reasoning to point out the oppression of Buddhists in Bangladesh (while condemning the act itself)? Would we do the same for any other religion? Did we see the Russian/Georgian conflict as being a battle between Russian and Georgian Orthodoxy? Did we see the US interventions in South America as being a Protestant (which is the single largest religious block in the US) vs Catholic conflict.

This is going far off track, I wasnít trying to imply that the two were men of flawless logic; I wouldnít have called them backwards if I thought that. I wish I could relay how easy it is to grow a strong connection to something but thatís beside the point. Essentially, the point has nothing to do with how they formed their bond with the Islamic world but rather why they murdered the soldier. With that in mind, I feel it is possible (based on their very words) that they see themselves as attacking what they perceived to be a threat, a threat which they feel has already done a lot of damage. The fact that they didnít harm any civilians speaks to this as well.

Regardless of motive we can be sure these guys will spend about ten years in comfortable British jail given new identities and released back into the public, all at the taxpayers expense of course.

That would be a bizarre move. I'm sure the prosecution will press for a life sentence.
« Last Edit: May 23, 2013, 05:14:02 PM by Scribbles »

Offline SweetSerenade

Re: Soldier killed in terror attacks in woolwich
« Reply #22 on: May 23, 2013, 04:19:16 PM »
I'm not sure what emotion I want to feel at this moment.

Deeply saddened, at the death of a soldier. Though he was not one of my soldiers, he was still a soldier. Who was brutally murdered in cold blood, in the middle of the day. He didn't deserve what happened to him, and further than that he was not even defended while he was attacked.

Severely outraged, at the fact that so many people just walked by and did nothing - or outraged at the fact that those men did such a thing. Do they think they will get away with it? That they are making a 'statement'? That is not how you make a statement. That is how you procure the ire and anger of people. If their goal was to outrage people and start a war, they failed. Though I still wish that someone had defended that poor soldier.

Extremely Proud, of those three Angels who stood up. Even though the soldier was dead, those women did what they could. Though I have to admit had it been me, I wouldn't have reacted quite the way they had.

Of course, if I had been there and seen it happening from the start... I would have looked for something heavy to swing at the knife wielding psychos. I would have ripped at anything not bolted down, and started to assault them as hard and as fast as I could. Disarm them in some way, use clothing to tie them up, anything to keep them off of that soldier.


It is nice to have ideals, and beliefs; but those beliefs and ideals should not impinge upon or destroy the lives and hopes of others. I hope those killers get the full extent of brutality that they deserve. Were this the old days, I'd fully endorse them allowing the soldier's family to mete out the justice they saw fit. If that was one of my relatives, I would destroy those two men with my bare hands.


Of course, that's just the sort of person I am. 
« Last Edit: May 23, 2013, 04:20:39 PM by SweetSerenade »

Offline Neysha

Re: Soldier killed in terror attacks in woolwich
« Reply #23 on: May 23, 2013, 04:27:06 PM »

The line between terrorism and whatever definition of hate crime you use... a distinction without a difference in my eyes.

Perfectly understandable.

But beyond the tragedy of the situation, it might help to contextualize the issue by defining whether it qualifies as a terrorist attack, or some form of hate crime based murder.

Offline Valterre

Re: Soldier killed in terror attacks in woolwich
« Reply #24 on: May 23, 2013, 04:27:32 PM »
Regardless of motive we can be sure these guys will spend about ten years in comfortable British jail given new identities and released back into the public, all at the taxpayers expense of course.

I hope they get life, I really do, but this wouldn't surprise me. I think there's a limit to how much we can really do for someone who killed in broad daylight in public to incite terror. I would like to see these men spend their lives in prison and not receive such priveleges.

It's just shocking to think they stabbed him so brutally. Especially considering the soldier was here, at home. It's just unheard of.