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Author Topic: Education and the modern generation  (Read 4957 times)

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Offline Valerian

Re: Education and the modern generation
« Reply #175 on: May 24, 2013, 10:43:50 PM »
Speaking as someone who was put into a class full of bigger and older kids... yeah, it isn't a good plan.   ::)  The grade schools and high school I went to were all quite small, too small for any advanced programs as such, but it was also easier to have smaller class sizes, at least, and a bit more individualized instruction.  So overall it wasn't nearly as bad as it could have been, but still far from ideal.

Offline Oniya

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Re: Education and the modern generation
« Reply #176 on: May 24, 2013, 10:54:40 PM »
Actually, in the little Oni's elementary school, they did do 'class shuffling'.  There were four fifth grade teachers, and the kids rotated from one to the other for different subjects.  I forget exactly when that started, but it's all old hat to her now.  Her sixth grade is set up with different teachers too.  I wasn't about to skip her - I was skipped out of kindergarten, and I did lose a lot of socialization skills, but it shouldn't have been too difficult to have her go to one of the other teachers for math.  The kids are all changing classrooms anyways.

Offline Caela

Re: Education and the modern generation
« Reply #177 on: May 24, 2013, 11:01:57 PM »
Speaking as someone who was put into a class full of bigger and older kids... yeah, it isn't a good plan.   ::)  The grade schools and high school I went to were all quite small, too small for any advanced programs as such, but it was also easier to have smaller class sizes, at least, and a bit more individualized instruction.  So overall it wasn't nearly as bad as it could have been, but still far from ideal.

I don't know that there is a standardized way that would work for "everyone" but I certainly think we could be doing a far better job than we are.

We need (IMO) more teachers, smaller class sizes, to return at least some power to teachers to control their classrooms, to chuck at least 95% of standardized tests so that teachers can actually teach their subjects instead of just preparing kids to fill in bubbles, and for more parents to get off their asses and get involved in their children's education. It's not just the school's responsibility to ensure our children are educated, but ours as well.

Offline Caela

Re: Education and the modern generation
« Reply #178 on: May 24, 2013, 11:04:20 PM »
Actually, in the little Oni's elementary school, they did do 'class shuffling'.  There were four fifth grade teachers, and the kids rotated from one to the other for different subjects.  I forget exactly when that started, but it's all old hat to her now.  Her sixth grade is set up with different teachers too.  I wasn't about to skip her - I was skipped out of kindergarten, and I did lose a lot of socialization skills, but it shouldn't have been too difficult to have her go to one of the other teachers for math.  The kids are all changing classrooms anyways.

I think the idea could work, particularly in larger population areas where you have more kids so you'd get a better mix of ages, in general, and not just one little kid with a bunch of bigger ones. Also, depending on their skills, they might have more older kids in one class, and more of their own age in another and I would have classes like gym, and fun activities like recess, be done in age appropriate groups so that they still learn to socialize and make friends.

Offline Healergirl

Re: Education and the modern generation
« Reply #179 on: May 25, 2013, 06:58:21 AM »
Tracking.   Anecdontes are not the most reliable of data, but they are data.

My sister n law is a professor at a local Community College.  Much of her class load is remedial work.  Her students, by a very large margin, tell her they would lvoe, purely love for tracking to be reinstated once they find out what it is and can do.

This is another reason why Home Schooling is so popular.  yes, much of the motivation, most of teh motivation is not very thinlyt disguised White Flight,  but not all of it.

I have a brother whose kids are home schooled.  Very smart kids, both of them (of course they are, I'm their Aunt by blood!)  the amount of work my sister-in-law puts into their education is phenomenal.  But they have an advantage many Home Schooled kids do not.  One of their uncles and one of their aunts are teachers, their curriculum gets a once-over by those relatives.  And by the history-nerdette of yours truly.

My brother told me once he could tell that a history textbook didn't pass muster with me, I didn't have to say a word, just the way my eyes went wide and I  hyperventilated as I skimmed it were enough.  I had gone straight to the section on the Antebellum South in the USA, a sure litmus test for the tone of such a  book, I have found.

It was truly atrocious.  Went on at some length abut the bond of Christian faith that linked and moderated the relationship between black slaves and white masters, the mutual respect that arose from that.

It was vile.  Evil is not too strong a word.

And it came highly recommended by a Home Schooling association.  Which is why I have such deep reservations for Home Schooling, so many parents don't have access to, or trust in the "subject matter experts" the way the parents of my  nephew and niece have.

The kids' assessment  scores are splendid, by the way.  Of course they are.  My brother is (almost) as smart as I am.

Offline Caela

Re: Education and the modern generation
« Reply #180 on: May 25, 2013, 09:52:28 AM »
Healergirl, I'd love to be in a position to be able to homeschool my daughter. To have the ability to let her fly fast through subjects she excels in and find advanced work for her to do, and be there to help her with the subjects she struggles with...it would be wonderful! Being a single Mom though, that's not going to happen. SO she'll go to one of the local public schools...and then do work for me at home to fill in the gaps! lol I am lucky enough to have a core group of friends who are very smart people and have been volunteered (hehehe) to help her out with subjects I can't.

And I now know I need to be leery of her history textbooks. Thanks for the heads up! That may be a subject she will find herself doing research projects for Me during the summers off. :)

Any other pitfalls I should be looking out for??

Offline Healergirl

Re: Education and the modern generation
« Reply #181 on: May 25, 2013, 10:06:33 AM »
One pitfall to avoid is the social isolation that can befall some Home Schooled children - but there are bound to be others in your area who do this, and At least a semi-formal group that will organize field trips, cookouts, camouts so that Home schooled kids can find people to hang out with - and this is Vital!

Not just for your daughter, but for you as well, meeting other parents will hel ease your own sense of isolation, they will b sources of advice and supprt, and parents can have a much more critical eye of textbooks than many in the Home School movement find comfortable, especially when the parents cll shennanigns on textbooks.

I wish to God I remembered that history  book so I could warn you off by name.  It was published by an outfit with a strong religious affiliation.

But, and this is very important, there are quite a few robustly secular groups in the me school movement.  And frankly, for many if not most subjects, the standard school system books are just fine.

Parents take a number of approaches that differ in detail, and are perhaps not surprisingly, are very tolerant of others who take slightly different aproaches to educating their kids.  That's the  fundamental point of Home Schooling after all.

Now the "leadership" of the movement... they are all too often hidebound, pushing a broader agenda of their own.

Offline Caela

Re: Education and the modern generation
« Reply #182 on: May 25, 2013, 12:03:14 PM »
I don't have to worry about the isolation part, my own daughter will be going to a public school. As much as I wish I could home school her, so I could tailor her education to her abilities, I am a single Mom and can't just quit working. I will be supplementing her education at home though (this is where only working 3, 12 hr shifts a week comes in handy!) so it's still good to know what pitfalls and holes there are in some of the books. With public schools being forced to use a "one size fits all" approach to education, it just seems like kids end up lacking, especially if they get bored and stop listening, so I am planning on my own child having special projects to work on at home as well...especially during school breaks.

Offline Healergirl

Re: Education and the modern generation
« Reply #183 on: May 25, 2013, 01:23:52 PM »
Caela,

You, my dear, are a very good Mom!

Offline Lilias

Re: Education and the modern generation
« Reply #184 on: May 25, 2013, 01:32:26 PM »
Even though I'm not gainfully employed, if I were to homeschool the Spawn, I'd hire a governess or a tutor. Attempting to do it myself would be a disaster for both of us.

Offline Beguile's Mistress

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Re: Education and the modern generation
« Reply #185 on: May 25, 2013, 01:45:19 PM »
I'm totally in favor of parents who raise self-sufficient children.  Bosses don't want to be hearing from mom when junior complains about working condition.

Offline Caela

Re: Education and the modern generation
« Reply #186 on: May 25, 2013, 02:06:14 PM »
Caela,

You, my dear, are a very good Mom!

~blushes~ Thanks! I just want her to have a good education, and the choices in life that that opens up for a person. I've watched too many of my siblings struggle because they threw away the chance at even a basic education and I refuse to allow my daughter to go down that road. I don't mind at all if she chooses a vocational school, or some sort of artistic endeavor over college, but I want her to have the choice if she wants it. And even if she chooses not to go to college, in favor of other pursuits, I still want her to have a thirst for knowledge and the capability to find that knowledge.

~grins~ Having a couple of friends that are librarians is going to be good fun when she's a bit older and I ask them for help in deciding on research projects for her. I'm thinking that for a few of them, I'll actually go so far as to limit her to resources she can find in, or get from, the library itself; computers only allowed for ordering such materials, not looking it up or sorting through them.

I'm totally in favor of parents who raise self-sufficient children.  Bosses don't want to be hearing from mom when junior complains about working condition.

This I totally don't get! I've heard of it, of course, but what self-respecting parent would actually call their child's workplace? If I grumble about work (which happens to all of us) my Mom just tells me to do something about it, or find something else to talk about!
« Last Edit: May 25, 2013, 02:07:59 PM by Caela »

Offline Beguile's Mistress

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Re: Education and the modern generation
« Reply #187 on: May 25, 2013, 02:20:11 PM »
This I totally don't get! I've heard of it, of course, but what self-respecting parent would actually call their child's workplace? If I grumble about work (which happens to all of us) my Mom just tells me to do something about it, or find something else to talk about!

Helicopter parents - those who have hovered over their children from day one.  They interfere in every aspect of the child's life rather than teach the child how to cope on their own.  I had a mother come storming into my office to berate me for abusing her child because he had a lunch schedule to adhere to.  Our policy is to let HR handle things so I call them.  He had been a problem from the start and we ended up firing him on the spot. 

Offline Healergirl

Re: Education and the modern generation
« Reply #188 on: May 25, 2013, 02:32:39 PM »
Caela,


Library only is a good way to teach some basic research skills that she will find  to be priceless when using them to winnow out all the dross that, say, google search will churn up.

Bei,

A helicopter parent getting wound up over a child's lunch schedule... I wish I could say I'm surprised.

Offline Beguile's Mistress

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Re: Education and the modern generation
« Reply #189 on: May 25, 2013, 02:42:34 PM »
Bei,

A helicopter parent getting wound up over a child's lunch schedule... I wish I could say I'm surprised.
She was the worst. 

Offline RubySlippers

Re: Education and the modern generation
« Reply #190 on: May 25, 2013, 02:55:46 PM »
Have you even thought about your own signature text?  You are referring to education that is designed to adjust the individual to society, rather than allowing people to develop to their full potentials.  I guess you must see leisure as a problem.

Education IS indoctrination by the government, to make good obedient little cogs who will do as they are told. The only way to fight the system is to get outside of it and go against the system. I for one work as little as I can my for of leisure is to work around 40 hours a month and I can earn enough to get by. I live modestly and just don't care what people think about that I don't care I hate working.

So why pretend otherwise get people in and out of the system as fast as possible.

Offline Caela

Re: Education and the modern generation
« Reply #191 on: May 25, 2013, 02:58:45 PM »
Helicopter parents - those who have hovered over their children from day one.  They interfere in every aspect of the child's life rather than teach the child how to cope on their own.  I had a mother come storming into my office to berate me for abusing her child because he had a lunch schedule to adhere to.  Our policy is to let HR handle things so I call them.  He had been a problem from the start and we ended up firing him on the spot.

These people need to get a life! If the person had some sort of schedule they needed to adhere to (because of being diabetic/hypoglycemic/some sort of medication they're on/etc.) then that was something that the employee should have handled with their manager, not something their parent should have been involved in in ANY way/shape/form.   ::)

And people wonder why kids are such brats! With parents like this it's no wonder.

Caela,


Library only is a good way to teach some basic research skills that she will find  to be priceless when using them to winnow out all the dross that, say, google search will churn up.


Hehehehe...I am evil enough, that if most still had card catalogues, I wouldn't let her use the computers at all!

Offline Healergirl

Re: Education and the modern generation
« Reply #192 on: May 25, 2013, 03:17:13 PM »
*sigh*

I miss card catalogues, I had anintuitive feel for them. 

I guess that tells you how much time I spent haunting libraries in my perhaps not so mis-spent youth.

Offline Beguile's Mistress

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Re: Education and the modern generation
« Reply #193 on: May 25, 2013, 03:19:34 PM »
These people need to get a life! If the person had some sort of schedule they needed to adhere to (because of being diabetic/hypoglycemic/some sort of medication they're on/etc.) then that was something that the employee should have handled with their manager, not something their parent should have been involved in in ANY way/shape/form.   ::)

And people wonder why kids are such brats! With parents like this it's no wonder.

I have theories about how this all came about but I usually offend parents when I talk about them since I don't have children of my own.  Part of our management training is how to identify various motivations our team members experience.  We theorize that helicopter parents often come about because they the product of families where both parents work or single parent households.  They felt neglected and/or deprived and over-compensate with their children.  Of course, they also burden their children with high expectations of success.

Offline Oniya

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Re: Education and the modern generation
« Reply #194 on: May 25, 2013, 03:26:02 PM »
Education IS indoctrination by the government, to make good obedient little cogs who will do as they are told. The only way to fight the system is to get outside of it and go against the system. I for one work as little as I can my for of leisure is to work around 40 hours a month and I can earn enough to get by. I live modestly and just don't care what people think about that I don't care I hate working.

So why pretend otherwise get people in and out of the system as fast as possible.

You hate working, and yet you recommend vocational schools.  I hate to break it to you, but most vocational schools are lining you up to be one of those 'cogs' that you so despise.  Higher education is where people learn that there is more, that they can do more, and that they can be more.  They learn to appreciate learning for learning's sake, and thinking for thinking's sake. 

I just don't understand why you bother posting in these topics when you hate education so much. 

Offline Caela

Re: Education and the modern generation
« Reply #195 on: May 25, 2013, 03:27:59 PM »
I have theories about how this all came about but I usually offend parents when I talk about them since I don't have children of my own.  Part of our management training is how to identify various motivations our team members experience.  We theorize that helicopter parents often come about because they the product of families where both parents work or single parent households.  They felt neglected and/or deprived and over-compensate with their children.  Of course, they also burden their children with high expectations of success.

lol..I don't offend that easily. Just because you don't have children of your own, doesn't mean you can't have insight into them. Some of the best advice, and insights I've gotten came from a friend who doesn't particularly like children (with case by case exceptions) in general, but always enjoyed studying psychology and watching people.

I'm sure some helicopter parents come about exactly because of what you said, or perhaps they were middle children in large families and felt neglected because of that. No matter the cause, it does seem that they are overcompensating for something and need to learn balance.

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Re: Education and the modern generation
« Reply #196 on: May 25, 2013, 03:32:34 PM »
*nods*  I also think that competition to have the best kid or kids is in there, too.  My brother turned the raising of their sons over to his wife when they were born.  She is one of the most concerned and loving parents I know and also the most hands-off.  At sixteen and fourteen those two boys have more life skills than some men twice their age.

Offline Moraline

Re: Education and the modern generation
« Reply #197 on: May 26, 2013, 11:41:22 AM »
Every child is different, some thrive with a more hands on approach and others do better when left to "handle" life experiences on their own.

There is no one single method for raising good children. Because children are individuals, it's up to the parents to do their best to gauge just how involved or hands off they should be with them. Some get it right, some get it wrong, some don't bother trying, etc... There really is no one single method or approach that works best.

And in defense of the parents that come in and give grief to employers of teenagers. There are many times when those employers are really taking advantage of and abusing their positions. Far too often teenagers are treated terribly by employers that know they can always "just get another teenager to fill their place."  It often takes an adult to step in and say "what you are doing it wrong and I won't let you treat my child like that."

Teenagers are not adults and it is still the parents responsibility to protect them and help them. A parent has responsibility to show the child how to stand up to an abusive employer and sometimes that means going to face the employer themselves.

(I've seen teenagers in fast food restaurants be made to feel like they had to stay at work when they were actively getting sick. I've seen teenagers forced to work in rubber boots in a kitchen with ankle deep waste water around them after a flood. The list goes on. I can understand why some parents get defensive and over zealously stick up for their children. Not saying it's always warranted but we should take a step back and be a bit more understanding as to why they are doing it. It's not all, helicopter parenting.)

It's equally as bad for a parent to be to much hands off as it is for a parent to be too hands on.

Note: The same goes for school systems. One of the major flaws in our education system is the universal approach to learning. The one size fits all mold has never worked well. There needs to be more flexibility and different approaches (which doesn't happen in classes with 35 children to one single teacher.)
« Last Edit: May 26, 2013, 11:44:05 AM by Moraline »

Offline Healergirl

Re: Education and the modern generation
« Reply #198 on: May 26, 2013, 11:48:57 AM »
Moraline,

Oh absolutely, teenagers are treated as a renewable resource by even the best employers at times.