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Author Topic: Crush the Xenos Scum! [40k discussion]  (Read 6838 times)

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Offline consortium11

Re: Crush the Xenos Scum! [40k discussion]
« Reply #50 on: May 09, 2013, 08:30:04 PM »
I'm not sure it would entirely insure victory; no single race in 40K has the power to destroy the others, even if supported by the Reapers directly although it would certainly give them a big edge (and make future indoctrination easier).

The issue seems to me to be how they take over a faction. Indoctrination requires prolonged exposure to Reapers (or at least Reaper artefacts) directly. It's not as simple as saying "let's indoctrinate the Orks today" and them indoctrinating the Orks; they'd need to land on an Ork planet and spend enough time to indoctrinate one planet without having waves of greenskins with axes managing to carve chunks off them. And if they did that is still a single planet. They'd likely have more success indoctrinating an individual leader but one of the main points of most of the inspiring leaders in the 40K verse is their unbreakable willpower and/or absolute dedication to a power that wouldn't let them be indoctrinated (the Chaos gods are unlikely to simply sit back and let say Abbadon become a thrall).

To apply a rough outline of their plan from Mass Effect 1, they'd likely indoctrinate an inquisitor and from there possibly an imperial planet (the other races are unlikely to look as favourably on an inquisitor visiting them as the Geth were). The end result... a "fallen" inquisitor and planet, which is something the Imperium has dealt with through fire, brimstone and an excessive amount of bolter shells a number of times.

As has been mentioned previously I think the 40k verse is simply so excessively grim-dark (the entire thing can basically be summed up as "life's shit and then you die/have your soul consumed/have something eat your face") and on such a ridiculous scale that it's hard to imagine anything from other universe that can compete. The Reapers do better than most as they can actually use 40K against itself... but its method of doing so is also something that the 40k verse is used to; it's a universe where it's second nature for those in charge to worry about and hunt down those who look like they may be influenced by an outside force.

Offline Cold Heritage

Re: Crush the Xenos Scum! [40k discussion]
« Reply #51 on: May 09, 2013, 09:30:11 PM »
The thing about indoctrinating Orks is that it'd be like Chaos corrupting Orks: the unaffected Orks would see that there's something that ain't Orky about that lot there an' krump 'em 'til they's dead or 'til they's right Orky again, I figure.

Offline Vekseid

Re: Crush the Xenos Scum! [40k discussion]
« Reply #52 on: May 09, 2013, 09:41:52 PM »
As has been mentioned previously I think the 40k verse is simply so excessively grim-dark (the entire thing can basically be summed up as "life's shit and then you die/have your soul consumed/have something eat your face") and on such a ridiculous scale that it's hard to imagine anything from other universe that can compete. The Reapers do better than most as they can actually use 40K against itself... but its method of doing so is also something that the 40k verse is used to; it's a universe where it's second nature for those in charge to worry about and hunt down those who look like they may be influenced by an outside force.

I'm not sure how much you'd count non-mass appeal sources. The Culture has 'gridfire' which basically lets them apply Planck power wherever they care to. The humans in the Xeeleeverse series would laugh at them. The Xeelee considered humanity themselves to be a minor, misguided irritant. And then there's that thread on SpaceBattles where they just invented as big of numbers as they could come up with. "Grahamfoe!" ...ooookaaaaay.

At some point, it's important to be able to relate to what's going on in order to consider it a story. At least Exterminatus, the Death Star, etc. can be presented to an audience in a visual fashion. Star Wars in general has rough industrial/numerical/firepower parity with the WH40k verse, and vastly superior maneuverability and communication abilities.

The thing about indoctrinating Orks is that it'd be like Chaos corrupting Orks: the unaffected Orks would see that there's something that ain't Orky about that lot there an' krump 'em 'til they's dead or 'til they's right Orky again, I figure.

A not insignificant portion of humanity in WH40k doesn't have biological brains anymore anyway. To say nothing of forces like say,the Necrons, or even the training and augmentation that Sisters of Battle, Space Marines, Psykers, etc. have.

That's saying nothing of the firepower and numerical disparity involved.

Online TheGlyphstone

Re: Crush the Xenos Scum! [40k discussion]
« Reply #53 on: May 09, 2013, 10:38:21 PM »
Cultureverse, Xeeleeverse - anything past Type II on the Kardashev scale will whip the 40Kverse before lunchtime. Star Wars can give them a solid run for their money, though the most likely outcome is two galaxies utterly devoid of sentient life/inhabitable planets by the end of the fight. A militarized Star Trek will wreck them in fleet combat by virtue of tactical FTL, they can't compete otherwise. Reapers, as mentioned, might have a shot at doing some damage, but in the end they're nothing significantly more threatening than the enemies 40K fights or allies with on a regular basis.

Offline Inkidu

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Re: Crush the Xenos Scum! [40k discussion]
« Reply #54 on: May 10, 2013, 07:19:59 AM »
I'm not sure how much you'd count non-mass appeal sources. The Culture has 'gridfire' which basically lets them apply Planck power wherever they care to. The humans in the Xeeleeverse series would laugh at them. The Xeelee considered humanity themselves to be a minor, misguided irritant. And then there's that thread on SpaceBattles where they just invented as big of numbers as they could come up with. "Grahamfoe!" ...ooookaaaaay.

At some point, it's important to be able to relate to what's going on in order to consider it a story. At least Exterminatus, the Death Star, etc. can be presented to an audience in a visual fashion. Star Wars in general has rough industrial/numerical/firepower parity with the WH40k verse, and vastly superior maneuverability and communication abilities.

A not insignificant portion of humanity in WH40k doesn't have biological brains anymore anyway. To say nothing of forces like say,the Necrons, or even the training and augmentation that Sisters of Battle, Space Marines, Psykers, etc. have.

That's saying nothing of the firepower and numerical disparity involved.
Actually, I'm thinking that not having a biological brain will save anyone. The Reapers are A.I. first. It might be incredibly easy for them to hack the Necrons. Indoctrinating races is fine, but I think the Reaers and the Necrons would be Allies in arms at best. Seeing as both want to wipe out all life. The Reapers are very adept at hacking synthetic life even if the necrons don't outright make a deal like the Geth did.

Offline chaoslord29Topic starter

Re: Crush the Xenos Scum! [40k discussion]
« Reply #55 on: May 10, 2013, 09:05:18 AM »
Actually, I'm thinking that not having a biological brain will save anyone. The Reapers are A.I. first. It might be incredibly easy for them to hack the Necrons. Indoctrinating races is fine, but I think the Reaers and the Necrons would be Allies in arms at best. Seeing as both want to wipe out all life. The Reapers are very adept at hacking synthetic life even if the necrons don't outright make a deal like the Geth did.

But the necrons aren't quite pure technology either, they're warp fueled necrotic automatons of the Star Gods, and their agenda is as far as I know wholly incompatible with allies of any kind, even the Reapers. I have to think that the influence of their gods would overwhelm any indoctrination attempts by the Reapers (maybe some of the non-necrons, like tomb spiders).

Offline consortium11

Re: Crush the Xenos Scum! [40k discussion]
« Reply #56 on: May 10, 2013, 09:24:42 AM »
I'm not sure how much you'd count non-mass appeal sources. The Culture has 'gridfire' which basically lets them apply Planck power wherever they care to. The humans in the Xeeleeverse series would laugh at them. The Xeelee considered humanity themselves to be a minor, misguided irritant. And then there's that thread on SpaceBattles where they just invented as big of numbers as they could come up with. "Grahamfoe!" ...ooookaaaaay.

At some point, it's important to be able to relate to what's going on in order to consider it a story. At least Exterminatus, the Death Star, etc. can be presented to an audience in a visual fashion. Star Wars in general has rough industrial/numerical/firepower parity with the WH40k verse, and vastly superior maneuverability and communication abilities.

I have to plead ignorance to the other universes. Perhaps it is best to say that in conventional warfare it's hard to imagine the 40K Universe losing.

Actually, I'm thinking that not having a biological brain will save anyone. The Reapers are A.I. first. It might be incredibly easy for them to hack the Necrons. Indoctrinating races is fine, but I think the Reaers and the Necrons would be Allies in arms at best. Seeing as both want to wipe out all life. The Reapers are very adept at hacking synthetic life even if the necrons don't outright make a deal like the Geth did.

Have there been any demonstrations of the Reapers showing particularly high level hacking abilities? They controlled the Geth through exploiting religious dogma and outside of that I struggle to think of anything that shows them hacking synthetic life directly.

Offline Inkidu

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Re: Crush the Xenos Scum! [40k discussion]
« Reply #57 on: May 10, 2013, 09:45:00 AM »
I'm assuming that there is no real magic just sufficiently advanced tech.

The Reapers are at least 50,000 years ol d making them the oldest thing to exist in the mixed universe (that's actually in this dimension). True the Reapers hacking ability is mostly infomed, but they are a sufficiently advanced A.I. which means they'd have ome method of fighting or dominating other A.I. and they could in theory really screw up the computers used by the rest of the races.

Can you imagine a corruption of the Machine Cult?

Reapers aside what about the Sul'Kath from Sword of the Stars? A race of infinitely intelligent psychic beings that probably dwarfwh the God-Emporer of Mankind's powers in his peak. Oh, and like the Emperor they're biologically immortal. They're so massive that their space suits are considered bigger than Leviathan-class ships in the SotS universe. Granted in that universe even the dreadnaught-class ships are realistic (smaller than even the U.S's supercarrier-class Nimitz). However, it's a sentient being of trans-dimensional capabilities that can appear anywhere. They could in theory destroy any ship in any fleet because they're so maneuverable.

 

Online TheGlyphstone

Re: Crush the Xenos Scum! [40k discussion]
« Reply #58 on: May 10, 2013, 10:53:44 AM »
Actually, I'm thinking that not having a biological brain will save anyone. The Reapers are A.I. first. It might be incredibly easy for them to hack the Necrons. Indoctrinating races is fine, but I think the Reaers and the Necrons would be Allies in arms at best. Seeing as both want to wipe out all life. The Reapers are very adept at hacking synthetic life even if the necrons don't outright make a deal like the Geth did.

That also depends on which version of the Necrons you're using. In the newest iteration of the fluff, they're not genocidal kill-all-organics, only a small subset cult of them are. The NewCrons are Egyptian Zombie Robots IN SPAAAAACE, focused on reclaiming their lost imperial glory...they'd fight the Reapers as hard as anyone else, and NewCron technology is so scarily advanced beyond anything else in 40K it's pushing Clarke's Third Law. They're not even actually AIs or synthetic intelligences, more like ghosts possessing living metal shells via the working of reality-warping minor gods.

AIs in 40K are actually incredibly rare - only the Tau use them in any significant quantity. Eldar have ghosts running their machines, the Imperium is terrified of 'thinking machines' and only uses autonomous Machine Spirits in the oldest and holiest of their equipment, Chaos uses demons, Tyranids are organic.

Offline Hemingway

Re: Crush the Xenos Scum! [40k discussion]
« Reply #59 on: May 10, 2013, 01:19:07 PM »
I imagine it would end with Mat Ward writing a novel.

I'm kidding. I didn't even know who Mat Ward was until two days ago.

Given what we saw in Mass Effect, I have no idea how Reapers would stand a chance. Indoctrination is slow, and I imagine it's the sort of thing the Imperium is quite adept at finding. And nuking entire planets to get rid of. Indoctrination isn't all that different from corruption by Chaos. Both are supposed to be subtle and sinister forces that infiltrate society, creating sort of sleeper agents.

Well, anyway, it doesn't matter, because we're all getting eaten by 'nids.

A Reaper lost in the warp returning would make for an excellent story, though. Or any sentient ship. A Chaos-corrupted evil AI. Good times.

Offline Inkidu

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Re: Crush the Xenos Scum! [40k discussion]
« Reply #60 on: May 10, 2013, 01:25:08 PM »
I imagine it would end with Mat Ward writing a novel.

I'm kidding. I didn't even know who Mat Ward was until two days ago.

Given what we saw in Mass Effect, I have no idea how Reapers would stand a chance. Indoctrination is slow, and I imagine it's the sort of thing the Imperium is quite adept at finding. And nuking entire planets to get rid of. Indoctrination isn't all that different from corruption by Chaos. Both are supposed to be subtle and sinister forces that infiltrate society, creating sort of sleeper agents.

Well, anyway, it doesn't matter, because we're all getting eaten by 'nids.

A Reaper lost in the warp returning would make for an excellent story, though. Or any sentient ship. A Chaos-corrupted evil AI. Times.
I think the key difference is that indoctrination works almost 100% of the time. It doesn't rely on the morals of the person in question.

Offline MercyfulFate

Re: Crush the Xenos Scum! [40k discussion]
« Reply #61 on: May 10, 2013, 01:27:46 PM »
I've wondered what would happen to the 40k Universe if the Emperor was reborn/returned, or if the whole grimdark permanent war ended.

Online TheGlyphstone

Re: Crush the Xenos Scum! [40k discussion]
« Reply #62 on: May 10, 2013, 01:38:14 PM »
I think the key difference is that indoctrination works almost 100% of the time. It doesn't rely on the morals of the person in question.

Strictly speaking Chaos corruption doesn't either. That's what makes it so insidious, that it can masquerade as other things and taint even the most righteous and good people by appealing to their goodness in the middle of a terrible universe. They don't stay good and righteous very long once Chaos has its hooks into them and can start changing them, but I doubt indoctrination's much different on that end.

Offline Inkidu

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Re: Crush the Xenos Scum! [40k discussion]
« Reply #63 on: May 10, 2013, 01:42:52 PM »
I've wondered what would happen to the 40k Universe if the Emperor was reborn/returned, or if the whole grimdark permanent war ended.
HERESY! *BLAM!*

In the grimdark future of the grimdark grimdark, there is only grimdark!

In reality the GE of MK would probably finish his own webway network so they had the Eldar mobility advantage while having their massive numbers. Then he would abolish his own worship and much ass kicking would commence.

Offline Neysha

Re: Crush the Xenos Scum! [40k discussion]
« Reply #64 on: May 10, 2013, 01:50:26 PM »
Star Wars can give them a solid run for their money, though the most likely outcome is two galaxies utterly devoid of sentient life/inhabitable planets by the end of the fight.

Probably be more of a Cold War type of scenario, since making inroads into the hellish 40K universe would be a laboriously costly undertaking for the Empire (much less any version of the Republic) and likewise, the Star Wars factions could quite tidily restrict and respond to IoM probes or incursions into their galaxy utilizing superior force of ships and firepower due to superior communications and FTL travel.

Quote
A militarized Star Trek will wreck them in fleet combat by virtue of tactical FTL, they can't compete otherwise.

Stuff like warp strafing does seem rather underused in Star Trek.

Online HairyHeretic

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Re: Crush the Xenos Scum! [40k discussion]
« Reply #65 on: May 10, 2013, 02:15:06 PM »
I've wondered what would happen to the 40k Universe if the Emperor was reborn/returned

That's what the Rogue Trader era Sensei was. Think of them as Chaos Champions, with the Emperor as their patron power. They were in the old Realm of Chaos books, and then pretty much ignored.

Offline Hemingway

Re: Crush the Xenos Scum! [40k discussion]
« Reply #66 on: May 10, 2013, 02:30:30 PM »
... Wouldn't that basically be a Grey Knight?

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Re: Crush the Xenos Scum! [40k discussion]
« Reply #67 on: May 10, 2013, 04:19:54 PM »

Offline Hemingway

Re: Crush the Xenos Scum! [40k discussion]
« Reply #68 on: May 10, 2013, 04:41:07 PM »
Woah. It would be cool to actually play those. Outlaws, dangerous nihilists - what's not to love?

Offline Neysha

Re: Crush the Xenos Scum! [40k discussion]
« Reply #69 on: May 10, 2013, 04:42:35 PM »
Woah. It would be cool to actually play those. Outlaws, dangerous nihilists - what's not to love?

Their endgame doesn't seem to be very positive. :p

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Re: Crush the Xenos Scum! [40k discussion]
« Reply #70 on: May 10, 2013, 04:43:47 PM »
You could probably do them using the Inquisition rules, assuming those are in the current GK-dex.

Maaaaaaaybe using the Chaos-dex, though with the direction change in the latest codex that's probably a lot trickier.

Offline Hemingway

Re: Crush the Xenos Scum! [40k discussion]
« Reply #71 on: May 10, 2013, 05:01:30 PM »
Their endgame doesn't seem to be very positive. :p

It's WH40K. I don't think anyone's endgame doesn't include "get consumed by tyranids".

Online TheGlyphstone

Re: Crush the Xenos Scum! [40k discussion]
« Reply #72 on: May 10, 2013, 05:03:14 PM »
Tyranids avoid Necrons, so they should be fine.

At least, until whatever is chasing the Tyranids shows up. :D

Offline Inkidu

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Re: Crush the Xenos Scum! [40k discussion]
« Reply #73 on: May 10, 2013, 05:06:36 PM »
Tyranids avoid Necrons, so they should be fine.

At least, until whatever is chasing the Tyranids shows up. :D
I've often said that if it weren't for the audacious awesomeness that the setting can invoke with it's chainsaw swords and whatnot, the game would be unplayable for how damn bleak it is.

Offline Ravien Delapor

Re: Crush the Xenos Scum! [40k discussion]
« Reply #74 on: May 10, 2013, 06:24:44 PM »
I've often said that if it weren't for the audacious awesomeness that the setting can invoke with it's chainsaw swords and whatnot, the game would be unplayable for how damn bleak it is.

40K is bleak and grim, yes...it imposes a very definite mortality on every faction within it and reminds anyone who plays the game or reads the books that there are much larger, much scarier things in the universe than us.  That much isn't really new (H.P. Lovecraft, thank you), and given any thought on the matter, it should be apparent without 40K.  And, yes, without the chainswords and bolters, and Inquisitors and Marines and Tech-Adepts, and the planet-destroying torpedoes and the population-ravishing bio-bombs, there would be a lot less awesome in the universe.

That's why humans have to fight so hard; we preserve the universe's supply of awesomeness.  That's why we have to include audacious awesomeness in 40K, why we have to have the fantasy realm of 40K at all.  Because if we didn't, all that awesome would blow up the species, and then not even Khorne would have much fun in war.

........well, maybe Khorne, but that's it.