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Author Topic: Crush the Xenos Scum! [40k discussion]  (Read 6853 times)

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Offline Inkidu

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Re: Crush the Xenos Scum! [40k discussion]
« Reply #225 on: May 17, 2013, 06:17:25 AM »
I often thought the iconography was just superstition. I mean pre-crapsack humanity had Gellar fields, but no God Emperor (at least openly) so they got from point A to point B without much demonic (daemonic) nastiness, it never makes it clear how aware everyone but the Emperor was. Though, unless you believe Event Horizon is a prequel to 40K then maybe they did know :P

Online TheGlyphstone

Re: Crush the Xenos Scum! [40k discussion]
« Reply #226 on: May 17, 2013, 09:25:01 AM »
I often thought the iconography was just superstition. I mean pre-crapsack humanity had Gellar fields, but no God Emperor (at least openly) so they got from point A to point B without much demonic (daemonic) nastiness, it never makes it clear how aware everyone but the Emperor was. Though, unless you believe Event Horizon is a prequel to 40K then maybe they did know :P

Not really. 40K is weird like that - genuine faith in the Emperor can protect you from things like evil nommy demons. Faithful people and open display of icons or religious symbols can deal physical damage to manifested demons, and if you're sufficiently pious (like, uber-pious), it gives you superpowers. Pre-crapsack humanity didn't need their Gellar fields as much because the warp was calm - it was only after the Eldar orgied Slaanesh into existence that the Warp turned all twisted and evil.

Offline Inkidu

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Re: Crush the Xenos Scum! [40k discussion]
« Reply #227 on: May 17, 2013, 10:02:38 AM »
Not really. 40K is weird like that - genuine faith in the Emperor can protect you from things like evil nommy demons. Faithful people and open display of icons or religious symbols can deal physical damage to manifested demons, and if you're sufficiently pious (like, uber-pious), it gives you superpowers. Pre-crapsack humanity didn't need their Gellar fields as much because the warp was calm - it was only after the Eldar orgied Slaanesh into existence that the Warp turned all twisted and evil.
Ah, I thought the Eldar had gone all dark before humanity went all crapsack. I mean the reason why the Emperor even came into existence was because the old shamans of prehistoric Earth were beginning to fear the corruption of the warp, but I suppose they just had uber precognitive powers.

Online TheGlyphstone

Re: Crush the Xenos Scum! [40k discussion]
« Reply #228 on: May 17, 2013, 10:13:05 AM »
Ah, I thought the Eldar had gone all dark before humanity went all crapsack. I mean the reason why the Emperor even came into existence was because the old shamans of prehistoric Earth were beginning to fear the corruption of the warp, but I suppose they just had uber precognitive powers.

Not really, but sort of. The Dark Age of Technology was humanity's golden years, lasting until the 25th millennium, where we discovered all kinds of awesome science and colonized all over the galaxy.
- Then the Age of Strife began, when the Men of Iron rebelled and the Warp turned more dark and nasty and made it harder to travel, complete with huge Warp storms everywhere shattering interstellar travel.
-The Emperor made his existence known here (he was already a lot of thousands of years old by this point), between the 25th and 29th millennium, and since he had uber precognititive power, he spent a thousand years or so uniting humanity under his banner and designing the Space Marines. The AoS is when humanity mostly turned crapsack, but it wasn't quite as terrible because Big E was still personally overseeing most of it.
- The Fall of the Eldar happened in the 29th millennium, released Slaanesh (who then retroactively existed throughout history, because Warp). This calms the warp storms all over the place for some reason, and the Emperor launches the Great Crusade to reunite humanity into an empire again.
- Works great, right up until Horus betrays him in the 31st millennium. Marines hammered, Empie is a vegetable.
-10 thousand years later, we're at the grimdark grimdarkness of 40K (technically 41K) that we all know and love.
« Last Edit: May 17, 2013, 10:17:30 AM by TheGlyphstone »

Offline Inkidu

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Re: Crush the Xenos Scum! [40k discussion]
« Reply #229 on: May 17, 2013, 10:19:42 AM »
Not really, but sort of. The Dark Age of Technology was humanity's golden years, lasting until the 25th millennium, where we discovered all kinds of awesome science and colonized all over the galaxy.
- Then the Age of Strife began, when the Men of Iron rebelled and the Warp turned more dark and nasty and made it harder to travel, complete with huge Warp storms everywhere shattering interstellar travel.
-The Emperor made his existence known here (he was already a lot of thousands of years old by this point), between the 25th and 29th millennium, and since he had uber precognititive power, he spent a thousand years or so uniting humanity under his banner and designing the Space Marines. The AoS is when humanity mostly turned crapsack, but it wasn't quite as terrible because Big E was still personally overseeing most of it.
- The Fall of the Eldar happened in the 29th millennium, released Slaanesh (who then retroactively existed throughout history, because Warp). This calms the warp storms all over the place for some reason, and the Emperor launches the Great Crusade to reunite humanity into an empire again.
- Works great, right up until Horus betrays him in the 31st millennium. Marines hammered, Empie is a vegetable.
-10 thousand years later, we're at the grimdark grimdarkness of 40K (technically 41K) that we all know and love.
http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/God-Emperor_of_Mankind#.UZZlzMor7dQ

This condenses all I found: Most sources state that the GEoM is a lot, lot older than the Age of Strife. :\

Offline chaoslord29Topic starter

Re: Crush the Xenos Scum! [40k discussion]
« Reply #230 on: May 17, 2013, 10:40:31 AM »
On the note of retroactive existence, is there anything to the theory that the Warhammer Fantasy world actually exists in the loosest chronological sense after the 41st Millennium?

I'd heard a crazy idea once that Warhammer Fantasy is what happens after Chaos finds itself victorious in the 41st Millenium, only to realize that without the Order represented by the various other factions, the Chaos Gods have little enough to corrupt and generally be anarchic against. Sure they could keep up their petty squabbles with one another, but they'd do that anyway, so they decide to reforge the universe into a slightly smaller more manageable manifestation of their will, one where they can perpetuate the struggle between Chaos and everything else ad infinitum.

Online TheGlyphstone

Re: Crush the Xenos Scum! [40k discussion]
« Reply #231 on: May 17, 2013, 10:50:26 AM »
http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/God-Emperor_of_Mankind#.UZZlzMor7dQ

This condenses all I found: Most sources state that the GEoM is a lot, lot older than the Age of Strife. :\

That's why I said he made his existence known, not that he was born. They've gotten murkier over the years, but the original canon had him 'born' in the 8th millennium MC or so, just living as an immortal and behind-the-scenes guardian of humanity until the AoS. Then that happened, and he realized he'd have to be more overt to accomplish his goals, becoming a warlord and openly taking over Earth.

On the note of retroactive existence, is there anything to the theory that the Warhammer Fantasy world actually exists in the loosest chronological sense after the 41st Millennium?

I'd heard a crazy idea once that Warhammer Fantasy is what happens after Chaos finds itself victorious in the 41st Millenium, only to realize that without the Order represented by the various other factions, the Chaos Gods have little enough to corrupt and generally be anarchic against. Sure they could keep up their petty squabbles with one another, but they'd do that anyway, so they decide to reforge the universe into a slightly smaller more manageable manifestation of their will, one where they can perpetuate the struggle between Chaos and everything else ad infinitum.
No real evidence for or against it. Older editions had the Fantasy world as a single planet in the 40K universe surrounded by warp storms that prevented travel, complete with loads of obscure and not-so-obscure crossovers (you could get Beastman allies in a 40K Chaos army, the Albion Fantasy campaign module had two mystical artifacts that were totally a Power Sword and Power Fist, I think I read a fanfiction or WD story once about an Ultramarine who got stranded there and became the 'Blue Knight'). They phased that out or retconned it a long time ago.

Offline Inkidu

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Re: Crush the Xenos Scum! [40k discussion]
« Reply #232 on: May 17, 2013, 11:03:10 AM »
That's why I said he made his existence known, not that he was born. They've gotten murkier over the years, but the original canon had him 'born' in the 8th millennium MC or so, just living as an immortal and behind-the-scenes guardian of humanity until the AoS. Then that happened, and he realized he'd have to be more overt to accomplish his goals, becoming a warlord and openly taking over Earth.
No real evidence for or against it. Older editions had the Fantasy world as a single planet in the 40K universe surrounded by warp storms that prevented travel, complete with loads of obscure and not-so-obscure crossovers (you could get Beastman allies in a 40K Chaos army, the Albion Fantasy campaign module had two mystical artifacts that were totally a Power Sword and Power Fist, I think I read a fanfiction or WD story once about an Ultramarine who got stranded there and became the 'Blue Knight'). They phased that out or retconned it a long time ago.
Sorry, I misread.

Anyway, I find it very interesting to say that the GEoM (GEoH for the more egalitarian minded), has probably failed at nearly every big goal he had. He's partially responsible for humanity's current state of crappiness. Though this is 40K. The most successful factions in general are the Tyranids and Orks, and that's because their goals are too simple to fail. :\

Offline Cold Heritage

Re: Crush the Xenos Scum! [40k discussion]
« Reply #233 on: May 17, 2013, 12:10:59 PM »
In the end, even the Emperror was/is only human. Despite all of his power, he couldn't change that about himself, about the Primarchs, and certainly not about the rest of mankind.

No real evidence for or against it. Older editions had the Fantasy world as a single planet in the 40K universe surrounded by warp storms that prevented travel, complete with loads of obscure and not-so-obscure crossovers (you could get Beastman allies in a 40K Chaos army, the Albion Fantasy campaign module had two mystical artifacts that were totally a Power Sword and Power Fist, I think I read a fanfiction or WD story once about an Ultramarine who got stranded there and became the 'Blue Knight'). They phased that out or retconned it a long time ago.

Some fiction in Fantasy Chaos supplements also alluded pretty hard to Chaos Marines.

Offline Inkidu

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Re: Crush the Xenos Scum! [40k discussion]
« Reply #234 on: May 17, 2013, 06:47:40 PM »
In the end, even the Emperror was/is only human. Despite all of his power, he couldn't change that about himself, about the Primarchs, and certainly not about the rest of mankind.

Some fiction in Fantasy Chaos supplements also alluded pretty hard to Chaos Marines.
The only thing I really solely blame on the Emperor is that he should have had the foresight to see that his empire was kind based solely around one person, he should have learned from the entirety of human history that a powerful charismatic figure alone is not enough to hold and empire together (religion or not). It's especially jarring because it's heavily implied that he was some of those powerful, charismatic figures.

Then again it is 40K. Grimdark is as grimdark does. :\

Offline Cold Heritage

Re: Crush the Xenos Scum! [40k discussion]
« Reply #235 on: May 17, 2013, 07:02:58 PM »
Well, the thing that set it all off was that when the Emperor turned the Great Crusade over to Horus, it basically came out of nowhere, for no reason to Horus and Horus was not prepared to handle the position. At one point Horus says that the post of Warmaster should have gone to Sanguinius. There was a sense of abandonment that Horus experienced that made him vulnerable to corruption. Maybe if he had told Horus and the Primarchs that he was working on a way to seize the webway for humanity then it would have been an easier pill to swallow. If he had just generally been a better dad things probably would have gone better. Angron is basically the poster child of this to me: if the Emperor had sent down the World Eaters to support Angron during his last stand, then Angron probably would have been a loyal, if exceptional brutal, Primarch. I'm not sure what he could have done to Lorgar, but shaming him and the entire Legion for Lorgar's religion-boner was not the way to go. Maybe if he had made the Thousand Sons and Magnus the Red the go-to guys for psychic stuff and let them play around in their own little corner then they would not have gone full Tzentch.

Another major sticking point was setting up the administratum, which a lot of the Primarchs and Astartes felt was a betrayal. They sort of figured that they would be feudal lords, ruling over what they conquered, not the bureaucrats. Their martial culture clashed with the regulations of the administratum the Emperor sent out to take control of things.

The Imperium did hold together. For ten thousand years, with the better part of that time being Golden Throne time That's a better track record than anyone else.

Offline chaoslord29Topic starter

Re: Crush the Xenos Scum! [40k discussion]
« Reply #236 on: May 17, 2013, 07:47:01 PM »
Well, the thing that set it all off was that when the Emperor turned the Great Crusade over to Horus, it basically came out of nowhere, for no reason to Horus and Horus was not prepared to handle the position. At one point Horus says that the post of Warmaster should have gone to Sanguinius. There was a sense of abandonment that Horus experienced that made him vulnerable to corruption. Maybe if he had told Horus and the Primarchs that he was working on a way to seize the webway for humanity then it would have been an easier pill to swallow. If he had just generally been a better dad things probably would have gone better. Angron is basically the poster child of this to me: if the Emperor had sent down the World Eaters to support Angron during his last stand, then Angron probably would have been a loyal, if exceptional brutal, Primarch. I'm not sure what he could have done to Lorgar, but shaming him and the entire Legion for Lorgar's religion-boner was not the way to go. Maybe if he had made the Thousand Sons and Magnus the Red the go-to guys for psychic stuff and let them play around in their own little corner then they would not have gone full Tzentch.

Another major sticking point was setting up the administratum, which a lot of the Primarchs and Astartes felt was a betrayal. They sort of figured that they would be feudal lords, ruling over what they conquered, not the bureaucrats. Their martial culture clashed with the regulations of the administratum the Emperor sent out to take control of things.

The Imperium did hold together. For ten thousand years, with the better part of that time being Golden Throne time That's a better track record than anyone else.

As a political science major, your analysis is both critical and compelling *academic props*

Offline Inkidu

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Re: Crush the Xenos Scum! [40k discussion]
« Reply #237 on: May 17, 2013, 08:03:00 PM »
Well, the thing that set it all off was that when the Emperor turned the Great Crusade over to Horus, it basically came out of nowhere, for no reason to Horus and Horus was not prepared to handle the position. At one point Horus says that the post of Warmaster should have gone to Sanguinius. There was a sense of abandonment that Horus experienced that made him vulnerable to corruption. Maybe if he had told Horus and the Primarchs that he was working on a way to seize the webway for humanity then it would have been an easier pill to swallow. If he had just generally been a better dad things probably would have gone better. Angron is basically the poster child of this to me: if the Emperor had sent down the World Eaters to support Angron during his last stand, then Angron probably would have been a loyal, if exceptional brutal, Primarch. I'm not sure what he could have done to Lorgar, but shaming him and the entire Legion for Lorgar's religion-boner was not the way to go. Maybe if he had made the Thousand Sons and Magnus the Red the go-to guys for psychic stuff and let them play around in their own little corner then they would not have gone full Tzentch.

Another major sticking point was setting up the administratum, which a lot of the Primarchs and Astartes felt was a betrayal. They sort of figured that they would be feudal lords, ruling over what they conquered, not the bureaucrats. Their martial culture clashed with the regulations of the administratum the Emperor sent out to take control of things.

The Imperium did hold together. For ten thousand years, with the better part of that time being Golden Throne time That's a better track record than anyone else.
I thought the scattering of the Primarchs was something beyond the Emperor's control. I mean, I don't think he did it on purpose. It was the powers of chaos.

It's a good analysis. A good psychological look. It's just kind of funny to me that in reality like most things with humans there's a kind hubris in the God Emperor. He's supposed to be the best single entity that humanity could put forward. He had tens of thousands of years from humanity's mistakes, and in the end he still makes the most fundamental mistakes that any of us could make, and  ultimately humanity ends up worshiping him not because he's the best human, but because of his transhuman powers.

I like the bitter irony.

Offline Cold Heritage

Re: Crush the Xenos Scum! [40k discussion]
« Reply #238 on: May 20, 2013, 12:19:35 AM »
I thought the scattering of the Primarchs was something beyond the Emperor's control. I mean, I don't think he did it on purpose. It was the powers of chaos.

Well, yes. But once he found them, the Emperor pulled a lot of dick moves to a lot of them.

Online TheGlyphstone

Re: Crush the Xenos Scum! [40k discussion]
« Reply #239 on: May 20, 2013, 12:54:55 AM »
He was a great war leader. An inspirational commander. A god among men.

He was a terrible, terrible father.

Offline Inkidu

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Re: Crush the Xenos Scum! [40k discussion]
« Reply #240 on: May 20, 2013, 06:49:27 PM »


Once more, for your consideration ladies and gentleman.

Also in the spirit, I present Adeptus Sorotas Metroidus :D




Offline NotoriusBEN

Re: Crush the Xenos Scum! [40k discussion]
« Reply #241 on: May 25, 2013, 06:09:53 PM »
that's kind of the thing with being human isnt it? We can't hit the reset button and do it over again. Sometimes, in the heat of the moment, the decision you made seemed correct at the time, but it was worse than not acting at all.

Offline Inkidu

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Re: Crush the Xenos Scum! [40k discussion]
« Reply #242 on: May 25, 2013, 06:21:09 PM »
that's kind of the thing with being human isnt it? We can't hit the reset button and do it over again. Sometimes, in the heat of the moment, the decision you made seemed correct at the time, but it was worse than not acting at all.
I was just pointing out the irony of it.

Offline Inkidu

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Re: Crush the Xenos Scum! [40k discussion]
« Reply #243 on: May 18, 2014, 09:38:05 AM »
Who are the C'tan and the Old Ones. I can't find a whole lot of info on them and their relation as precursors to the 40K setting.

Online TheGlyphstone

Re: Crush the Xenos Scum! [40k discussion]
« Reply #244 on: May 18, 2014, 11:36:56 AM »
Who are the C'tan and the Old Ones. I can't find a whole lot of info on them and their relation as precursors to the 40K setting.

This is going by the Newcron fluff, since it's overwritten Oldcrons and there's next to no information available elsewhere beyond the 5thE Necron book.


Waaaaaay back in history, there were the Old Ones, 40K's Precursor/Ancient race. They were uber-powerful and generally awesome, and worshipped as gods by their servant races like the eldar (separate from the actual Warp Gods of the Eldar, who were born from the tumultous warp as a side effect of this worship). There was a non-Old-One-created race called the Necrontyr, who were extremely expansionistic and territorial, and who decided to pick a fight with the Old Ones as a provocative cause to keep their people united instead of bickering with each other. This was a bad plan, and the Old Ones kicked their ass.

Cue the arrival of the C'Tan, a strange and enigmatic race...few in number, but the next best thing to literal physical gods within the universe, who fed off suns and stars, but considered life energy to be like cocaine-coated lollipops. One of them, the Deciever, came to the Necrons and offered their King a deal; swear eternal loyalty to the C'tan, and they'd grant the Necrontyr eternal life and unimaginable power. Sounded like a great deal, so the Silent King took it. The Necrontyr were all transferred into living metal necrodermises - voluntarily for the royalty and elite, forcibly rounded up and shoved into the conversion engines for commoners - and when it was over, the Necrons realized how badly they screwed up again, because now they were soulless and mostly-mindless automatons slaved to the will of their new 'Gods'. Awesome gods, though, because they went back for Round 2 against the Old Ones and cleaned house.

 Eating the souls of an entire species had glutted the C'tan, and they casually blew up stars and turned solar systems into black holes, exterminating the Old Ones and their servants bit by bit. But the Silent King was still free, and still realizing how badly he had betrayed his entire race by making the deal - so when the last of the Old Ones was dead, he gave the order for the entire Necron army to turn on the C'tan, who were now weak and fragile from spending all their power hunting and killing Old Ones. They destroyed the C'tan, tore them apart and sealed away the still-sentient and still-powerful fragments into individual pocket demiplanes, but were also weakened themselves and had to run away and hide from the vengeful Eldar that had survived the Old Ones' destruction. The Silent King went off on a solo extragalactic pilgrimage instead of going into hibernation, but he came back eventually to fight Tyranids.


That is the history. Physically, GW's never explained what they looked like, though earlier editions implied they were giant toad-people like Fantasy's Slann race. They created the Eldar and the Orks, and might have had a hand in seeding humans (never confirmed, as usual). Their warp-powered weapons used during the War In Heaven against the Necrontyr and C'Tan were responsible for stirring up the warp from a peaceful sea into the hell-dimension it is now.
« Last Edit: May 18, 2014, 11:39:37 AM by TheGlyphstone »

Offline Inkidu

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Re: Crush the Xenos Scum! [40k discussion]
« Reply #245 on: May 18, 2014, 12:02:19 PM »
This is going by the Newcron fluff, since it's overwritten Oldcrons and there's next to no information available elsewhere beyond the 5thE Necron book.


Waaaaaay back in history, there were the Old Ones, 40K's Precursor/Ancient race. They were uber-powerful and generally awesome, and worshipped as gods by their servant races like the eldar (separate from the actual Warp Gods of the Eldar, who were born from the tumultous warp as a side effect of this worship). There was a non-Old-One-created race called the Necrontyr, who were extremely expansionistic and territorial, and who decided to pick a fight with the Old Ones as a provocative cause to keep their people united instead of bickering with each other. This was a bad plan, and the Old Ones kicked their ass.

Cue the arrival of the C'Tan, a strange and enigmatic race...few in number, but the next best thing to literal physical gods within the universe, who fed off suns and stars, but considered life energy to be like cocaine-coated lollipops. One of them, the Deciever, came to the Necrons and offered their King a deal; swear eternal loyalty to the C'tan, and they'd grant the Necrontyr eternal life and unimaginable power. Sounded like a great deal, so the Silent King took it. The Necrontyr were all transferred into living metal necrodermises - voluntarily for the royalty and elite, forcibly rounded up and shoved into the conversion engines for commoners - and when it was over, the Necrons realized how badly they screwed up again, because now they were soulless and mostly-mindless automatons slaved to the will of their new 'Gods'. Awesome gods, though, because they went back for Round 2 against the Old Ones and cleaned house.

 Eating the souls of an entire species had glutted the C'tan, and they casually blew up stars and turned solar systems into black holes, exterminating the Old Ones and their servants bit by bit. But the Silent King was still free, and still realizing how badly he had betrayed his entire race by making the deal - so when the last of the Old Ones was dead, he gave the order for the entire Necron army to turn on the C'tan, who were now weak and fragile from spending all their power hunting and killing Old Ones. They destroyed the C'tan, tore them apart and sealed away the still-sentient and still-powerful fragments into individual pocket demiplanes, but were also weakened themselves and had to run away and hide from the vengeful Eldar that had survived the Old Ones' destruction. The Silent King went off on a solo extragalactic pilgrimage instead of going into hibernation, but he came back eventually to fight Tyranids.


That is the history. Physically, GW's never explained what they looked like, though earlier editions implied they were giant toad-people like Fantasy's Slann race. They created the Eldar and the Orks, and might have had a hand in seeding humans (never confirmed, as usual). Their warp-powered weapons used during the War In Heaven against the Necrontyr and C'Tan were responsible for stirring up the warp from a peaceful sea into the hell-dimension it is now.
Can you elaborate on that last paragraph. I can't determine who created whom. I know the Eldar were created by the Old Ones, but the Orks too?

Online TheGlyphstone

Re: Crush the Xenos Scum! [40k discussion]
« Reply #246 on: May 18, 2014, 12:18:22 PM »
Sorry, yeah. The Eldar were a servitor-race of the Old Ones. Pre-5E, it was pretty explicit that the Old Ones created the Orks as well, as a pure weapon of war that felt no fear and so was immune to the existential despair caused by the Nightbringer C'tan and its minions. It's since drifted back into the maybe-canon status, but without any contradiction, the Old Ones are still the 'Brain Boyz' who originally designed the Ork species.

The C'tan didn't create anything. They bought the creation of living metal and biotransference to the Necrontyr, but otherwise they were parasites and destroyers only.

Offline Inkidu

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Re: Crush the Xenos Scum! [40k discussion]
« Reply #247 on: May 18, 2014, 12:37:45 PM »
Sorry, yeah. The Eldar were a servitor-race of the Old Ones. Pre-5E, it was pretty explicit that the Old Ones created the Orks as well, as a pure weapon of war that felt no fear and so was immune to the existential despair caused by the Nightbringer C'tan and its minions. It's since drifted back into the maybe-canon status, but without any contradiction, the Old Ones are still the 'Brain Boyz' who originally designed the Ork species.

The C'tan didn't create anything. They bought the creation of living metal and biotransference to the Necrontyr, but otherwise they were parasites and destroyers only.
Ah, that makes it clearer. The Old Ones seemed like fairly abusive precursors, but the C'Tan make them look like boy scouts.

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Re: Crush the Xenos Scum! [40k discussion]
« Reply #248 on: May 18, 2014, 12:42:49 PM »
That's a fairly accurate description. In the Grim Darkness of the Ancient Past, there are Only Assholes.

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Re: Crush the Xenos Scum! [40k discussion]
« Reply #249 on: May 18, 2014, 01:01:30 PM »
That's a fairly accurate description. In the Grim Darkness of the Ancient Past, there are Only Assholes.
The thing I do like about the 40K universe over say regular Warhammer, is that Earth does exist, and sort of still exists. So the idea that people probably dicked with us (and gave us the psychics that we can barely control most likely) is interesting.