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Author Topic: Crush the Xenos Scum! [40k discussion]  (Read 6828 times)

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Online TheGlyphstone

Re: Crush the Xenos Scum! [40k discussion]
« Reply #200 on: May 14, 2013, 08:42:51 PM »
Orks have genetically encoded knowledge, but I've never seen any fluff about them with genetic memories. Besides, one Ork will shed thousands of spores in his lifetime, plus a big burst when he dies, so if all of his 'offspring' shared his memories, you'd get weird things happening.

Offline Inkidu

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Re: Crush the Xenos Scum! [40k discussion]
« Reply #201 on: May 14, 2013, 08:51:02 PM »
That makes better sense.

Also, I know this is a sticking point with a lot of fans, but why no female space marines? Also, what would the fanbase do if GamesWorkshop retoconned the no female space marines rule? It's really just intellectual exercise, because I kind of know why it's a dudes club and there are the sisters o'battle and all that. I just want a place where I can suggest it without being hunted down and killed. GamesWorkshop did do away with a lot of the chapters of space marines, so they could in theory re-introduce an all female chapter. I just wonder what would happen.

What if... if you will...

Online TheGlyphstone

Re: Crush the Xenos Scum! [40k discussion]
« Reply #202 on: May 14, 2013, 09:11:19 PM »
The fanbase would erupt in a torrent of RAEG like you've never seen before. All-out war between the diehard no-female-marine players and the now-vindicated pro-female marine players.

Offline Inkidu

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Re: Crush the Xenos Scum! [40k discussion]
« Reply #203 on: May 14, 2013, 10:07:18 PM »
The fanbase would erupt in a torrent of RAEG like you've never seen before. All-out war between the diehard no-female-marine players and the now-vindicated pro-female marine players.
I always tell people that they really want to see a seven foot tall woman in battle armor wielding a chainsword or a thunder hammer, and they just go right on denying it.  ::)

Oh, and FYI if I ever end up doing fluff for the GamesWorkshop you can count on that happening. I've got at least 5 chapters planned out. ;D

Bring on the assassins!
« Last Edit: May 14, 2013, 10:09:22 PM by Inkidu »

Offline chaoslord29Topic starter

Re: Crush the Xenos Scum! [40k discussion]
« Reply #204 on: May 15, 2013, 09:39:03 AM »
Suppose Gamesworkshop went forward with a middle ground? You could carefully tailor the retconning to say that Space Marines aren't male at all, they're asexual, perhaps even androgynous. After all, wouldn't it make more sense to have them as such from the Emperor's perspective in creating them as such?

If that's the case, you could easily retcon things to say that in fact, over the centuries there have been thousands of women chosen for candidacy as a Space Marine, it's just that the process robs them of any defining features of their previous gender (in much the same way it robs them of their humanity). Thus, you could introduce a chapter whose geneseed profile allows for a little more, shall we say, gender divergence?

Offline Inkidu

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Re: Crush the Xenos Scum! [40k discussion]
« Reply #205 on: May 15, 2013, 09:58:50 AM »
Suppose Gamesworkshop went forward with a middle ground? You could carefully tailor the retconning to say that Space Marines aren't male at all, they're asexual, perhaps even androgynous. After all, wouldn't it make more sense to have them as such from the Emperor's perspective in creating them as such?

If that's the case, you could easily retcon things to say that in fact, over the centuries there have been thousands of women chosen for candidacy as a Space Marine, it's just that the process robs them of any defining features of their previous gender (in much the same way it robs them of their humanity). Thus, you could introduce a chapter whose geneseed profile allows for a little more, shall we say, gender divergence?
I think that would be worse for some fans then letting women have a chapter to themselves. :\

My point is that if humanity has to fight to the death every day of the of the year to keep from being wiped out. They allow women into the PDF and the imperial guard. All it would really take was someone in the imperium opening up female candidacy. Seriously, if they can use a highly advanced genetic concept like the geneseed then the simple act of tailoring it to accept one chromosome is nothing. -__-

The space marines could literally double their numbers overnight by accepting the other gender. I'm not even asking for co-ed chapters. They could be as segregated as you please. My point is that sex is a useless divide in the grimdark future of the 41st Century. :| Do women get treated any better by the imperium? Not from where I'm standing.

I don't really care about fan rage. :D

EDIT: Just for shiggles I looked up the fluff behind the no-female SPESS MAHREENS rule. It's pretty much broad-strokes genetic handwaving. I mean it starts at the zygotic level (which is not the first level of genetics anyway). Besides, GamesWorkshop has a long history of violating its own cannon, fan-base be damned, so it's really just a waiting game. All they have to find is the experimental relics of the GEoM's daughter project or what have you and Bob's your uncle. :)

I could literally think of at least half a dozen ways it could be retconned. :\
« Last Edit: May 15, 2013, 10:08:05 AM by Inkidu »

Offline chaoslord29Topic starter

Re: Crush the Xenos Scum! [40k discussion]
« Reply #206 on: May 15, 2013, 10:44:20 AM »
Don't think it'd be quite as simple as twice as many candidates now meaning twice as many Space Marines. The number of space marines isn't due to a shortage of viable candidates, it's due to the complexity and time consuming nature of the process, not to mention the expense in equipping the Space Marines with the best arms and armor the Imperium can provide.

I'm inclined to agree that their are more than a few ways to retcon it however, but the stumbling block to me would be the whole problem of how much divergence the Imperium would actually allow. I mean, if the goal here is a more equal Imperium, and we're largely in agreement that women receive nothing akin to special treatment in the 41st millennium, I find it hard to believe there would be all female chapters. That just doesn't fit the MO. More likely it'd be a Samus Aran situation, with female space marines being largely indistinguishable from their Battle Brothers, especially when armored up.

Online TheGlyphstone

Re: Crush the Xenos Scum! [40k discussion]
« Reply #207 on: May 15, 2013, 10:49:35 AM »
I think that would be worse for some fans then letting women have a chapter to themselves. :\

My point is that if humanity has to fight to the death every day of the of the year to keep from being wiped out. They allow women into the PDF and the imperial guard. All it would really take was someone in the imperium opening up female candidacy. Seriously, if they can use a highly advanced genetic concept like the geneseed then the simple act of tailoring it to accept one chromosome is nothing. -__-

The space marines could literally double their numbers overnight by accepting the other gender. I'm not even asking for co-ed chapters. They could be as segregated as you please. My point is that sex is a useless divide in the grimdark future of the 41st Century. :| Do women get treated any better by the imperium? Not from where I'm standing.

I don't really care about fan rage. :D

EDIT: Just for shiggles I looked up the fluff behind the no-female SPESS MAHREENS rule. It's pretty much broad-strokes genetic handwaving. I mean it starts at the zygotic level (which is not the first level of genetics anyway). Besides, GamesWorkshop has a long history of violating its own cannon, fan-base be damned, so it's really just a waiting game. All they have to find is the experimental relics of the GEoM's daughter project or what have you and Bob's your uncle. :)

I could literally think of at least half a dozen ways it could be retconned. :\
The problem, from a purely in-universe perspective (whatever out-of-universe thoughts or bad pseudoscience might have justified it), is that the GoEM specifically designed Space Marines to be a one-gender race, or at the very least, incapable of breeding true. It's one of the few things about SM fluff that's remained 100% consistent - the Emperor wanted the Space Marines to serve and protect humanity, not replace them. Including both males and females in their ranks would threaten that, and put humanity in danger of being replaced by its superior version. So rather than just simply make them all sterile, he made them all sterile (outside of fanfiction :) ) and also restricted the design template to only work on males as a double failsafe (and because he was kind of a sexist bastard).

Offline Cold Heritage

Re: Crush the Xenos Scum! [40k discussion]
« Reply #208 on: May 15, 2013, 11:25:58 AM »
Let's bring back half-eldar Space Marines too.

And female Space Marines are a great idea. They can reuse all the Sisters of Battle molds. Just Finecast some of those stylized 'U's that Ultramarines have, and instant $$$.

Offline chaoslord29Topic starter

Re: Crush the Xenos Scum! [40k discussion]
« Reply #209 on: May 15, 2013, 11:42:26 AM »
Let's bring back half-eldar Space Marines too.

And female Space Marines are a great idea. They can reuse all the Sisters of Battle molds. Just Finecast some of those stylized 'U's that Ultramarines have, and instant $$$.

That would make a suitable amount of in universe sense actually. Suppose some hidden protocol or dogma was revealed that prescribed the ascension of the Adeptus Sororitas to the same kind of genetic evolution as the Space Marines. They're already 'wed' to the Emperor after all, and all their other distinguishing aspects.

Offline Inkidu

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Re: Crush the Xenos Scum! [40k discussion]
« Reply #210 on: May 15, 2013, 11:44:34 AM »
The problem, from a purely in-universe perspective (whatever out-of-universe thoughts or bad pseudoscience might have justified it), is that the GoEM specifically designed Space Marines to be a one-gender race, or at the very least, incapable of breeding true. It's one of the few things about SM fluff that's remained 100% consistent - the Emperor wanted the Space Marines to serve and protect humanity, not replace them. Including both males and females in their ranks would threaten that, and put humanity in danger of being replaced by its superior version. So rather than just simply make them all sterile, he made them all sterile (outside of fanfiction :) ) and also restricted the design template to only work on males as a double failsafe (and because he was kind of a sexist bastard).
Eh, not really. There's many indications that they're made either sterile or mentally/hormonally asexual by the processes involved in making space marines.
I mean I don't think I've ever seen any fluff where a space marine has ever thought about or expressed interest in sex. So really, at least for me it's just the other side of humanity stepping up as protectors of the empire. True it's something that's remained consistent (making it kind of the exception all things considered), but apparently from what I've read GamesWorkshop has never done anything to really stop debunk it.

I mean they'd be just as zealous and duty-bound as their male marines in my mind. It's not like they'd suddenly become amorous chainmail... er power bikini wearing fan-service. I think some of the Sister o'battle artwork I've seen attests to GamesWorkshops ability to thoroughly avoid fan-service if they so desire. I mean, people are going to fap regardless of whether it actually exists within canon so I'd naturally need non-fappy reasons to even bother with this.

I mean, I'm hardly going to lose any sleep over, and I think people get a little too worked up over some silly things. If it continues as is, fine. I don't have the money to even play the table-top game proper so I'm only really interested in the fluff. So that means I'm going to postulate about stuff, what else is there really to do with fluff...

I mean... besides causing internet wildfires.  >:)

Nah, I wouldn't do that... would I?  O:)
« Last Edit: May 15, 2013, 11:46:18 AM by Inkidu »

Online TheGlyphstone

Re: Crush the Xenos Scum! [40k discussion]
« Reply #211 on: May 15, 2013, 11:58:20 AM »
I'm just saying that is the canonical reason in fluff for why the Emperor made Space Marine male-only. The bad psuedoscience about zygotes and chromosomal compatibility is how he did it, but his reason for doing so was a worry about creating a 'better' race that would end up driving 'true' humans to extinction, and he built in a double-layered protection against it just in case.

Offline Inkidu

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Re: Crush the Xenos Scum! [40k discussion]
« Reply #212 on: May 15, 2013, 12:01:17 PM »
I'm just saying that is the canonical reason in fluff for why the Emperor made Space Marine male-only. The bad psuedoscience about zygotes and chromosomal compatibility is how he did it, but his reason for doing so was a worry about creating a 'better' race that would end up driving 'true' humans to extinction, and he built in a double-layered protection against it just in case.
Fair enough, but I bet ten bucks when a 40K MMO comes out there's going to be a big call for female space marines (hopefully by female players XD).


Offline chaoslord29Topic starter

Re: Crush the Xenos Scum! [40k discussion]
« Reply #213 on: May 15, 2013, 12:10:23 PM »
Fair enough, but I bet ten bucks when a 40K MMO comes out there's going to be a big call for female space marines (hopefully by female players XD).



I'm not even sure how much I would actually enjoy that MMO . . . it's not a universe that lends itself well to playing the lone hero type, unless everyone is playing as an inquisitor or part of their retinue.

Online TheGlyphstone

Re: Crush the Xenos Scum! [40k discussion]
« Reply #214 on: May 15, 2013, 12:13:01 PM »
That's probably why the last few attempts at a 40K MMO have failed or gotten tabled - it's just not a setting that lends itself to MMO-style gameplay, as you pointed out.

Offline chaoslord29Topic starter

Re: Crush the Xenos Scum! [40k discussion]
« Reply #215 on: May 15, 2013, 12:56:25 PM »
There's the added problem of it being such a damn grimdark setting that it's hard to imagine it having the same widespread appeal of something as cartoonishly heroic as World of Warcraft or classically adventurous as Guild Wars. How do you convey the sense of crushing darkness of a galaxy where to be one human being is to be an insignificant spark of life in a sea of trillions when everyone in any given MMO needs to be a hero all their own.

Space Marine and Dawn of War weren't bad representations, but the best I could picture would be a sort of Neverwinter Nights or Baldur's Gate adaptation of Dark Heresy or possibly Deathwatch.

Speaking of which, all this 40k talk and 40k fans has me thinking . . . XD

Offline Inkidu

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Re: Crush the Xenos Scum! [40k discussion]
« Reply #216 on: May 15, 2013, 01:40:27 PM »
Yeah, but in a weird way 40K is kind of comical in its audacity and the serious with which it is taken in and out of game. :\

Offline chaoslord29Topic starter

Re: Crush the Xenos Scum! [40k discussion]
« Reply #217 on: May 15, 2013, 01:45:16 PM »
Yeah, but in a weird way 40K is kind of comical in its audacity and the serious with which it is taken in and out of game. :\

Indeed, but its exactly those sort of complexities which don't usually translate well from an established setting into an MMO.

Offline Inkidu

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Re: Crush the Xenos Scum! [40k discussion]
« Reply #218 on: May 15, 2013, 04:56:04 PM »
Actually, I think a more Mount & Blade style multilayer would suit 40K the best. Lots of people killing everyone everywhere. 

Offline chaoslord29Topic starter

Re: Crush the Xenos Scum! [40k discussion]
« Reply #219 on: May 15, 2013, 05:09:05 PM »
Actually, I think a more Mount & Blade style multilayer would suit 40K the best. Lots of people killing everyone everywhere.

Oh man! That or Warhammer Fantasy and you could literally do warband style play! I wonder if they already have that mod . . ..

Offline HairyHeretic

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Re: Crush the Xenos Scum! [40k discussion]
« Reply #220 on: May 15, 2013, 07:06:01 PM »
Personally I wanted Dark Millenium Online to be Planetside 2 with a different skin.

No quest giving NPCs

No collecting 10 wotsits

In the grim darkness of the far future, there is only war.

Offline Cold Heritage

Re: Crush the Xenos Scum! [40k discussion]
« Reply #221 on: May 15, 2013, 11:36:46 PM »
That would make a suitable amount of in universe sense actually.

I'm not sure it would. I don't think they existed as such during the Emperor's time in anything really resembling what they are now, and they are basically the church's private army. The church having a private army on par with Astartes is probably pretty undesirable, since the whole reason they have the Sororitas is that someone in the church declared himself supreme ruler and went so batshit insane that there was a Siege of Terra II: Terra Harder and the law came down that the church could not have men under arms.

Online TheGlyphstone

Re: Crush the Xenos Scum! [40k discussion]
« Reply #222 on: May 15, 2013, 11:56:43 PM »
Sort of, yeah. Vandire (the high lord of the church) found an all-female cult called the Daughters of the Emperor on some bumbnut world and recruited them as his personal all-woman elite bodyguard squad, for when he made his grab for Emperorhood. They got talked into switching sides and murderizing their boss (possibly by the Emperor himself), so when the law was passed that forbade 'men under arms', they got to both stay alive and stay as a fighting force.

Offline Inkidu

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Re: Crush the Xenos Scum! [40k discussion]
« Reply #223 on: May 16, 2013, 09:29:50 PM »
My question for the day involves 40K's form of FTL travel.

Humans use special fields but also tend to paint their ships with iconography.
Tau barely skim the void meaning they don't get the full demonic effect.
Orks are effectively too stupid to be effected by the void.
The Eldar use their webway, and it circumvents that whole void thing (because they had it before they went all dark).
I imagine the dark eldar and chaos forces are kind of well duh.
The necrons doesn't really leave their planets much anymore.
I never looked up what they Tyranids do to traverse space.

Why is the void so crucial to FTL travel? Is it just because of its reality warping powers?

Online TheGlyphstone

Re: Crush the Xenos Scum! [40k discussion]
« Reply #224 on: May 16, 2013, 10:34:35 PM »
Because it's the only way humanity - or anyone except the Eldar races - knows of to go FTL at all - they never discovered a non-Warp based means of supralight travel. Without the Warp, there would be no Imperium.

The Dark Eldar use the Webway like the Eldar. Chaos also use Gellar fields, and substitute sacrifices or altars to their own gods for the Emperor iconography to protect themselves from all the demons who aren't on their side. Orks have 'Teef' which basically work like Gellar fields, but if the Teef stop working, it's less OH GOD EVERYONE DIES and more 'Oy boys, live-fire training session!". Oldcrons had inertialess FTL, the only race that did, but now they just hijack portions of the webway. Tyranids do a lot of drifting through space at sublight, but they also have these weird things called Narvhals that form a 'gravity tunnel' between stars for Nid fleets to ride supralight along.
« Last Edit: May 16, 2013, 10:36:43 PM by TheGlyphstone »