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Author Topic: Crush the Xenos Scum! [40k discussion]  (Read 6861 times)

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Offline Hemingway

Re: Crush the Xenos Scum! [40k discussion]
« Reply #100 on: May 10, 2013, 08:07:56 PM »
Creed probably learned from the Tau, the only species to actually use, you know, actual tactics. I like the one section in one of their codices where one of their commanders says that last stands are just a lack of imagination.

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Re: Crush the Xenos Scum! [40k discussion]
« Reply #101 on: May 10, 2013, 08:14:45 PM »
Creed probably learned from the Tau, the only species to actually use, you know, actual tactics. I like the one section in one of their codices where one of their commanders says that last stands are just a lack of imagination.
"Yeah, we suck at melee, not that you'll get close enough use it!" The Tau unofficial motto.

Necrons win the prize for lack of imagination, "I move, I shoot."

Offline Ravien Delapor

Re: Crush the Xenos Scum! [40k discussion]
« Reply #102 on: May 10, 2013, 08:15:30 PM »
Creed probably learned from the Tau, the only species to actually use, you know, actual tactics. I like the one section in one of their codices where one of their commanders says that last stands are just a lack of imagination.

Lack of imagination...*shrugs*  I suppose that there might be alternatives, but really, where's the fun of barely surviving when you could have a five-page long, drawn out, bloody hissy fit that ends with the last man alive lighting off a decommissioned doomsday-device that immolates half the enemy force and destabilizes the planet's orbit?

White flag, or doomsday nuke?  Hmmmmmmmm...

Offline Hemingway

Re: Crush the Xenos Scum! [40k discussion]
« Reply #103 on: May 10, 2013, 08:23:04 PM »
"Yeah, we suck at melee, not that you'll get close enough use it!" The Tau unofficial motto.

Necrons win the prize for lack of imagination, "I move, I shoot."

I like to think of it more as: You wanna know how to get Space Marines? They pull a chainsword, you pull a pulse rifle. He sends one of yours to the hospital, you OBLITERATE THEIR UNIT WITH A RAILGUN.

Don't bring chainswords to railgun fights.

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Re: Crush the Xenos Scum! [40k discussion]
« Reply #104 on: May 10, 2013, 08:25:26 PM »
I like to think of it more as: You wanna know how to get Space Marines? They pull a chainsword, you pull a pulse rifle. He sends one of yours to the hospital, you OBLITERATE THEIR UNIT WITH A RAILGUN.

Don't bring chainswords to railgun fights.
Until god-damned Creed comes from behind with a bunch of Space Marine Assault troops and they jump on the Tau and cut them to pieces.

Offline Ravien Delapor

Re: Crush the Xenos Scum! [40k discussion]
« Reply #105 on: May 10, 2013, 08:28:36 PM »
I like to think of it more as: You wanna know how to get Space Marines? They pull a chainsword, you pull a pulse rifle. He sends one of yours to the hospital, you OBLITERATE THEIR UNIT WITH A RAILGUN.

Don't bring chainswords to railgun fights.

Space Marines would rather wear tutu's to battle than give up melee combat, Tau warriors would rather wear tut'us than engage in melee combat.  When the two meet, inevitably someone's going to have to ballet.  And since 40K is written and produced by humans, my money's on the Space Marines.

Offline TheGlyphstone

Re: Crush the Xenos Scum! [40k discussion]
« Reply #106 on: May 10, 2013, 09:14:24 PM »
I like to think of it more as: You wanna know how to get Space Marines? They pull a chainsword, you pull a pulse rifle. He sends one of yours to the hospital, you OBLITERATE THEIR UNIT WITH A RAILGUN.

Don't bring chainswords to railgun fights.

The irony being that, aside from things like flamers, the railgun is the worst weapon to fight Marine infantry with in the Tau arsenal? ;D



EDIT:
Only mildly related, but HOLY CRAP THIS IS AWESOME.
« Last Edit: May 10, 2013, 09:40:00 PM by TheGlyphstone »

Offline Ravien Delapor

Re: Crush the Xenos Scum! [40k discussion]
« Reply #107 on: May 11, 2013, 01:02:56 AM »
Two things in reply...first, what would the Tau ideally use a railgun against?  Second, what would be best against Marine infantry?

And on a side not...truly epic link.  Thank the gods for fanatics with money.

Offline TheGlyphstone

Re: Crush the Xenos Scum! [40k discussion]
« Reply #108 on: May 11, 2013, 01:23:33 AM »
Two things in reply...first, what would the Tau ideally use a railgun against?  Second, what would be best against Marine infantry?

And on a side not...truly epic link.  Thank the gods for fanatics with money.

Railguns are anti-vehicle weaponry - they crack Land Raider and Predators. Using them against infantry of any kind would be overkill, if such a thing existed.

To kill MEQs (Marine EQuivalents, anything with Toughness 4 and 3+ Armor), the best Tau options are plasma rifles, ion cannons, neutron blasters, or just mass pulse rifle fire...either bypass their save in volume, or force enough saving throws that they have to lose troops.

Offline Hemingway

Re: Crush the Xenos Scum! [40k discussion]
« Reply #109 on: May 11, 2013, 09:12:07 AM »
Railguns still have S6 AP4 large blast submunitions. While not exactly ideal for taking out Space Marines, I just thought I'd mention that. ;)

But, yeah. Plasma Rifles ( S6 AP2 ) and Ion Cannon ( S7 AP3 as standard, S8 AP2 with overcharge ) are the ideal options. Ion Cannon overcharge is even powerful enough to cause instant death, so it would totally obliterate little things like Terminators, if my understanding of the rules is correct.

Railguns ( having a range of 72", generally bigger than the battlefield, and S10 AP1 ) are for when something absolutely positively needs to disappear.

Offline TheGlyphstone

Re: Crush the Xenos Scum! [40k discussion]
« Reply #110 on: May 11, 2013, 09:40:17 AM »
Railgun submunitions are fun, but as you mentioned, they're AP4, so they fall under the 'force enough volume of saves', and being a template means their effectiveness is variable based on enemy spread/strength - if you get a large number of hits, that means ou've scored on a squad with low casualties, so they have plenty of disposable meatshields to soak the wounds you deal. There are worse options, but since every submunition is a turn you're not firing solid shot into their armor units, it's still inefficient.

Against anything worse than an MEQ, they are vicious though.

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Re: Crush the Xenos Scum! [40k discussion]
« Reply #111 on: May 11, 2013, 09:55:11 AM »
Railgun discussions aside. We've talked about how various factions would do in the 40K universe, but I'm curious: What lone individuals would be able to hold their own in the setting? Like I previously mused I believe Samus Aran would have no problem. Setting-wise she has a power suit that the Tau would covet. That and the suit itself often is able to adapt technology to its systems as well as energy to keep it powered. Seriously,  I don't think it would be hard for her to augment her armor with and Iron Halo or to enhance her missiles with bolter tech. Orks can reverse-engineer IoM tech for crying out loud. :D

Naturally, these people would be easily swamped in a battlefield setting by virtue of simply being outnumbered but on a one on one or even small group basis how would they do?

Offline Hemingway

Re: Crush the Xenos Scum! [40k discussion]
« Reply #112 on: May 11, 2013, 10:12:23 AM »
Gordon Freeman. How? I have no idea. That seems to be his MO.

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Re: Crush the Xenos Scum! [40k discussion]
« Reply #113 on: May 11, 2013, 10:19:25 AM »
Gordon Freeman. How? I have no idea. That seems to be his MO.

"Brother-Captain!"
"Yes, marine?"
"We have found a holy weapon of immense power."
"What is this weapon you speak of?"
"This." Produces Freeman's crowbar.
"By the Emperor..."

Offline Cold Heritage

Re: Crush the Xenos Scum! [40k discussion]
« Reply #114 on: May 11, 2013, 02:16:34 PM »
Orks can reverse-engineer IoM tech for crying out loud.

Is that what they do now? Last time I looked at Orkz if you opened up a shoota you'd just find gud bitz 'n otha wotsits. Do they still reproduce by spores?

Offline TheGlyphstone

Re: Crush the Xenos Scum! [40k discussion]
« Reply #115 on: May 11, 2013, 02:32:44 PM »
Is that what they do now? Last time I looked at Orkz if you opened up a shoota you'd just find gud bitz 'n otha wotsits. Do they still reproduce by spores?

They still reproduce by spores, yeah.

As for Ork tech...GW has never been clear on that, and in fact deliberately contradicted themselves and obscured the issue. As far as there is a 'canon', the degree to which Orks can break physics with their tech depends on the density of the Ork population and the resultant WAAAAAAAUGH field. Most Ork guns - shootas and whatnot - are functional firearms in their own right, though heavy and extremely prone to misfires in the hands of anyone who's not an Ork (cuz Orks know it won't break), and their vehicles can be driven by humans willing to put up with the discomfort. When the Orks get thicker, you start getting mildly weird stuff like fighta-bommas that can fly with a full gas tank and disconnected fuel line as long as the pilot hasn't opened up the engine and seen the broken bitz. In the middle of the biggest WAAAAUGHS, the ones sporting Roks and Gargants, the green tide is strong enough to have 'Shootas' that don't have any actual moving parts inside, but still work just fine.

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Re: Crush the Xenos Scum! [40k discussion]
« Reply #116 on: May 11, 2013, 03:12:06 PM »
They still reproduce by spores, yeah.

As for Ork tech...GW has never been clear on that, and in fact deliberately contradicted themselves and obscured the issue. As far as there is a 'canon', the degree to which Orks can break physics with their tech depends on the density of the Ork population and the resultant WAAAAAAAUGH field. Most Ork guns - shootas and whatnot - are functional firearms in their own right, though heavy and extremely prone to misfires in the hands of anyone who's not an Ork (cuz Orks know it won't break), and their vehicles can be driven by humans willing to put up with the discomfort. When the Orks get thicker, you start getting mildly weird stuff like fighta-bommas that can fly with a full gas tank and disconnected fuel line as long as the pilot hasn't opened up the engine and seen the broken bitz. In the middle of the biggest WAAAAUGHS, the ones sporting Roks and Gargants, the green tide is strong enough to have 'Shootas' that don't have any actual moving parts inside, but still work just fine.
The orks are kind of a living contradiction anyway. So maybe GW's being deliberate.

Offline Hemingway

Re: Crush the Xenos Scum! [40k discussion]
« Reply #117 on: May 11, 2013, 03:31:06 PM »
I may be part of a minority, but I don't find the ork fluff that hilarious.

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Re: Crush the Xenos Scum! [40k discussion]
« Reply #118 on: May 11, 2013, 04:29:21 PM »
I may be part of a minority, but I don't find the ork fluff that hilarious.
I guess you go in for the whole 50 shades of grimdark then, because the Orks are the only comic relief in the entire universe. :\


Offline Ravien Delapor

Re: Crush the Xenos Scum! [40k discussion]
« Reply #119 on: May 11, 2013, 04:40:34 PM »
They still reproduce by spores, yeah.

As for Ork tech...GW has never been clear on that, and in fact deliberately contradicted themselves and obscured the issue. As far as there is a 'canon', the degree to which Orks can break physics with their tech depends on the density of the Ork population and the resultant WAAAAAAAUGH field. Most Ork guns - shootas and whatnot - are functional firearms in their own right, though heavy and extremely prone to misfires in the hands of anyone who's not an Ork (cuz Orks know it won't break), and their vehicles can be driven by humans willing to put up with the discomfort. When the Orks get thicker, you start getting mildly weird stuff like fighta-bommas that can fly with a full gas tank and disconnected fuel line as long as the pilot hasn't opened up the engine and seen the broken bitz. In the middle of the biggest WAAAAUGHS, the ones sporting Roks and Gargants, the green tide is strong enough to have 'Shootas' that don't have any actual moving parts inside, but still work just fine.

So to be clear...Orks can break just about every existing law of mechanical physics as long as there's enough greenskins around to break them and none of them ask why?

I guess you go in for the whole 50 shades of grimdark then, because the Orks are the only comic relief in the entire universe. :\

I beg to differ; humor can be found in many factions, even in the anal-retentive Mechanicus.
Excerpt from Titanicus (Dan Abnet), page 372, para.6 to para.8, follows:
<You've got one hour,> canted Gearheart. <Disarm the forge and surrender to Governor Aleuton, or I'll come for you.>
<You've got one hour,> Enhort canted back.  <Declare your engines in full and unqualified support of the forge, and I will erase this unpleasant conversation from my memory buffers.  Failure to do so will result in your removal from both command and your engine.>
<I'm Invictus Antagonistes, you little fool.  Who exactly is going to do that?>


Say what you will, but attempting to win a pissing contest against a man-machine with a codpiece cannon is funnier than a cowboy in a shark tank.
Sighs.  Poor Tex.  He was quite a shark.

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Re: Crush the Xenos Scum! [40k discussion]
« Reply #120 on: May 11, 2013, 04:47:02 PM »
Well certainly there are funny instances anywhere. I find the Machine Cult's "Ritual of the Knock" (read: Hitting it really hard on the side) is hilarious. However, when it comes to intentionally written funny and it's the Orks for most people. Every place I've been pretty much agrees they're generally accepted to be the comic-relief faction. :\

Offline Ravien Delapor

Re: Crush the Xenos Scum! [40k discussion]
« Reply #121 on: May 11, 2013, 04:57:58 PM »
Well certainly there are funny instances anywhere. I find the Machine Cult's "Ritual of the Knock" (read: Hitting it really hard on the side) is hilarious. However, when it comes to intentionally written funny and it's the Orks for most people. Every place I've been pretty much agrees they're generally accepted to be the comic-relief faction. :\

Fair enough; the Orks are the comedic relief species, and they're not the only species that can get a laugh now and then.
The Ritual of the Knock?  Never heard of it before, but apparently I've been an avid practitioner for years.  Does it have a mantra?  So far, the one I've been using goes something like 'Why won't you gakking work, you gakking piece of scrap?!?'

Speaking of truncated curses, I've a question for the board.  40K brings its' players and readers into a brutal, graphically violent universe where on any given day, they might witness a hundred cultist's gut themselves for the Chaos Gods' pleasure, or see a Dark Eldar Haemonculus perform a vivisection on a conscious 'patient', or watch a world get torn apart from the inside out and detonate, not to mention that every day, a thousand souls get sacrificed to the Emperor.

My question, then, is why can't anyone bring themselves to drop the F-bomb in the fiction?  Is that the line in the bloody, body-strewn sand?

Offline TheGlyphstone

Re: Crush the Xenos Scum! [40k discussion]
« Reply #122 on: May 11, 2013, 05:13:26 PM »
So to be clear...Orks can break just about every existing law of mechanical physics as long as there's enough greenskins around to break them and none of them ask why?


They don't ask because they don't know enough to ask - and no one else does. They don't get a complete pass on any laws of mechanical physics, they just warp reality to make things they "know" to be true. To elaborate with the examples I already gave...Shootas shoot. That's what they do, and all Orks know that. You put bullets in, pull the trigger, it goes BANG and bullets come out. For one ork, or a few orks, that just means their shootas won't misfire any regular than a normal pistol would, despite having never been cleaned or repaired in its existence. When that ork becomes a mob of a few thousand or tens of thousands of orks, they all know that Shootas shoot, and their Shootas will shoot as long as they put bullets in it and pull the trigger - WAAAAAUGH power substitutes for all the missing bits between 'bullets in' and 'bullets out'. Ork vehicles painted red are measurably faster than otherwise identical vehicles not painted red, because the Orks "know" that Red Ones Go Fasta. Ork armor is more resilient than it should be based on its purely physical properties, because Orks 'know' armor's wot stops hurty things. An Ork cannot make his Wartrukk fly no matter how many Orks are in the area, even if he thinks Wartrukks fly, unless he somehow manages to convince a few thousand other orks in the vicinity to also believe this - which will be hard, because they already 'know' Wartrukks don't fly, but Koptas and Fighta-Bommas do.

Quote
My question, then, is why can't anyone bring themselves to drop the F-bomb in the fiction?  Is that the line in the bloody, body-strewn sand?

Conceit of the writers, not the setting. 40k fiction has 'feth', 'fething', 'frak', 'gek', 'fragged'....they have lots of F-bombs, just not the one we're used to. It's fairly common in speculative fiction to invent new profanity for some reason.
« Last Edit: May 11, 2013, 05:16:15 PM by TheGlyphstone »

Offline Hemingway

Re: Crush the Xenos Scum! [40k discussion]
« Reply #123 on: May 11, 2013, 05:20:28 PM »
I guess you go in for the whole 50 shades of grimdark then, because the Orks are the only comic relief in the entire universe. :\

Uhh, not really, no. I find the grimdark thing to be unintentionally hilarious at times, but that's about it. Also, Tau are, to many a fanboys frustration, far from grimdark. I'm a Tau player, first and foremost.

Offline HairyHeretic

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Re: Crush the Xenos Scum! [40k discussion]
« Reply #124 on: May 11, 2013, 05:27:22 PM »
Am I the only one who ever thought it would be funny to have an Apoc sized shokk attack gun that could fire trukkloads of madboyz instead of gretchen?

Admittedly they wouldn't be madboyz before being fired out of it, but it's still good for a laugh  >:)

I play Orks, amongst my various armies, and my Big Mek Wazdreg has an unhealthy fascination wiv bigga an betta shokk attack gunz.