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Author Topic: Explosions Rock the Boston Marathon  (Read 6065 times)

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Offline Retribution

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Re: Explosions Rock the Boston Marathon
« Reply #175 on: April 21, 2013, 08:54:02 PM »
I have mixed feelings on it all: 1) I find it hard to view terrorists as anything other than those engaged in an act of war. That being the case it is hard to try enemy soldiers when they charge the lines and last I checked POWs do not get a trail. 2) I fully support the death penalty and this fellow deserves death if anyone does. 3) Yes, he is a US citizen so I believe you will find a provision in the US constitution that addresses treason if one wished to approach it that way. But you get a trial for that. 4) Suspension of rights well troubles me even in my mostly conservative heart.

So this is complicated and I think that is partly by terrorist design. Look at the discussion here and it shows how they sew discontent. I firmly believe many of the enemies of the US use the fact that the US mostly plays by the rules and they do not to their full advantage. We are right now forgetting the victims while worrying about this fellow's rights. This shows that in that how do you address a terrorist?  If they are a foreign citizen then well I am sorry Bin Laden was dealt with in exactly the right way shot like the rabid animal he was. In the case of this fellow I suspect the enemy combatant tag is being applied because there is a wish to get military intelligence from him without having to publish that information publicly. Remember part of why terrorism succeeds is it blurs the line between military and civilian matters and causes these issues.

What I would like to see is that he is interrogated sans lawyer so intelligence may be extracted and put to use preventing furthers acts such as this. Then once that is done try him for treason with legal representation. If found guilty which I think he most likely will be exterminate him. Harsh yes, but I have no use for someone he blows up an eight year old child. And that is just the most striking to someone who is a father like me of the many reprehensible things that happened that day. Lives shattered and yes the kid is only 19, but you are a legal adult at age 18 so he should face the music like an adult. Our legal system is too slow, too cumbersome, and too complicated. It gives criminals and animals too many easy outs and I am quite tired of it. Or rather lets them delay things when their victims never had that luxury.

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Re: Explosions Rock the Boston Marathon
« Reply #176 on: April 21, 2013, 09:04:11 PM »
I realize that what I'm about to say can be very badly misinterpreted and I'm trying to phrase it carefully. Please bear with me.

Insisting on justice and a fair trial for the accused does not have anything to do with the victims or their families, except for the fact that the victims will be possibly involved in the trial. The fact that they are affected by this man's actions does not give them the right to have more say about what is done with him than any other citizen. It is not forgetting the victims to want to ensure that this man is treated according to the law.

Offline consortium11

Re: Explosions Rock the Boston Marathon
« Reply #177 on: April 21, 2013, 09:16:30 PM »
I realize that what I'm about to say can be very badly misinterpreted and I'm trying to phrase it carefully. Please bear with me.

Insisting on justice and a fair trial for the accused does not have anything to do with the victims or their families, except for the fact that the victims will be possibly involved in the trial. The fact that they are affected by this man's actions does not give them the right to have more say about what is done with him than any other citizen. It is not forgetting the victims to want to ensure that this man is treated according to the law.

Getting slightly jurisprudential here, there's actually an argument for purposefully excluding the victims and their families' wishes and thoughts in the interests of justice (as opposed to vengeance) on the basis that they're too personally involved. To give a simple example, if someone beat up say my mum I may want them castrated, crippled and then put to death painfully... but that's because it's my mum who got hurt. Looking at it objectively I don't think that should be the punishment dealt out.

Offline Retribution

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Re: Explosions Rock the Boston Marathon
« Reply #178 on: April 22, 2013, 04:18:35 AM »
Fair and reasonable are two entirely differing things. For example in my area there are two fellows accused of murdering an entire family. It has now been six years since the crime and still no trail and all I can say about that is give me a break. Or on a more infamous level the Trevon Martin killing still has not gone to trail. There is a point where this gets ridiculous. And some things are so heinous they certainly deserve the express lane.

I am not related to anyone involved in the Boston bombing. But ignoring what was done to those people is just plain wrong. The degree of the crime should have a bearing and we should not be spending forever sorting out the punishment. At least with Oklahoma City the perpetrator was put to death like he deserved in relatively short order.

Offline consortium11

Re: Explosions Rock the Boston Marathon
« Reply #179 on: April 22, 2013, 05:41:26 AM »
At least with Oklahoma City the perpetrator was put to death like he deserved in relatively short order.

Six years and mainly because McVeigh dropped all his appeals after the first failed.

Offline meikle

Re: Explosions Rock the Boston Marathon
« Reply #180 on: April 22, 2013, 07:41:58 AM »
I can understand the anger but I personally believe that the best way to treat a terrorist is with an even hand. Otherwise, you'll just end up creating a martyr.
And a police state.  That'll be fun.

Offline Callie Del Noire

Re: Explosions Rock the Boston Marathon
« Reply #181 on: April 22, 2013, 07:58:47 AM »
I am not supporting the fact that we need to support the rule of law and or due process because I like these people or condone their acts in any manner but for what could be said as a more selfish reason. What we do in the punishment of them for their actions could eventually be the manner in which those I care for or I myself get treated.  What we condone today against another is he precedent that we are facing tomorrow. We are, supposedly, all the same in front of the law.

Offline Chris Brady

Re: Explosions Rock the Boston Marathon
« Reply #182 on: April 22, 2013, 10:03:12 AM »
Actually, the best thing to do would be to treat this as a common criminal case.  By labeling him a "Terrorist" you ARE legitimizing his view in other's eyes as someone of import.

Don't do that.  Strip him and everyone of any sense of that.  He's just another hoodlum off the street.  Yes, the magnitude of the crime is severe, and he should be punished for it, but leave it at that.

Offline Oniya

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Re: Explosions Rock the Boston Marathon
« Reply #183 on: April 22, 2013, 10:27:45 AM »
Actually, the best thing to do would be to treat this as a common criminal case.  By labeling him a "Terrorist" you ARE legitimizing his view in other's eyes as someone of import.

Don't do that.  Strip him and everyone of any sense of that.  He's just another hoodlum off the street.  Yes, the magnitude of the crime is severe, and he should be punished for it, but leave it at that.

I kind of like this idea.  Put the entire burden on him as well - the planning, the construction of the bombs - treat him and his brother as 'lone nutjobs' and see what happens.

Offline Beguile's Mistress

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Re: Explosions Rock the Boston Marathon
« Reply #184 on: April 22, 2013, 10:30:38 AM »
I am not supporting the fact that we need to support the rule of law and or due process because I like these people or condone their acts in any manner but for what could be said as a more selfish reason. What we do in the punishment of them for their actions could eventually be the manner in which those I care for or I myself get treated.  What we condone today against another is he precedent that we are facing tomorrow. We are, supposedly, all the same in front of the law.

+1

 One of our co-workers was all for swift and immediate arrest, conviction and punishment until his son was caught on surveillance tape vandalizing a store.

Offline Callie Del Noire

Re: Explosions Rock the Boston Marathon
« Reply #185 on: April 22, 2013, 10:42:34 AM »
Actually, the best thing to do would be to treat this as a common criminal case.  By labeling him a "Terrorist" you ARE legitimizing his view in other's eyes as someone of import.

Don't do that.  Strip him and everyone of any sense of that.  He's just another hoodlum off the street.  Yes, the magnitude of the crime is severe, and he should be punished for it, but leave it at that.

Very well said. I liked the fact that the IRA terrorists in the 'H' blocks weren't accorded special standing when I lived in Ireland... though I disliked what I have heard about the actual prison conditions and I've already talked extensively about my thoughts on the UK's take on 'due process' in terror cases.

We exist in a society of laws and precedence. I agree that by refusing to further empower them and trying them for their acts, not their justifications, we are pursuing law and justice. I'm am.. still.. reserved about the hate crime laws so more 'special case' laws makes me nervouse.

Offline ShadowFox89Topic starter

Re: Explosions Rock the Boston Marathon
« Reply #186 on: April 22, 2013, 01:34:11 PM »
http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/04/22/17860373-boston-marathon-bomb-suspect-charged-with-using-weapon-of-mass-destruction?lite

 2 things gleaned from this:

 1) He is being charged as using a WMD

 2) He's not going to be charged as an enemy combatant.

 Wait, sorry, 3 things.

 3) The people who comment in the NBC discussions are complete idiots.

Offline TheGlyphstone

Re: Explosions Rock the Boston Marathon
« Reply #187 on: April 22, 2013, 01:35:55 PM »


 3) The people who comment in the NBC discussionson the internet are complete idiots.

Fixed your typo for you, good sir.

Offline Ephiral

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Re: Explosions Rock the Boston Marathon
« Reply #188 on: April 22, 2013, 01:57:52 PM »
..wait, what? Is there any actual meaning to the term "weapon of mass destruction" any more? How exactly does US law work with terms like this? (Up here, these things have to be very clearly defined at the beginning of the statute.) I'm very confused.

Offline Chris Brady

Re: Explosions Rock the Boston Marathon
« Reply #189 on: April 22, 2013, 02:44:35 PM »
Do you guys think that a petition to make sure these two criminals are treated AS criminals, as opposed to trying to make this out to a 'terrorist attack' would get any traction?

Offline ShadowFox89Topic starter

Re: Explosions Rock the Boston Marathon
« Reply #190 on: April 22, 2013, 03:02:54 PM »
 I doubt it will make any difference.

 And I don't know how this could be considered a WMD, as far as we know no biological, chemical, or radioactive material was used in the explosives. Which precludes it under US law from being considered a WMD.

Offline Moraline

Re: Explosions Rock the Boston Marathon
« Reply #191 on: April 22, 2013, 03:06:29 PM »
They say in the video linked above that the charge of WMD is a federal legal term to define pretty much any bomb.

The charge of WMD allows the possibility of the prosecution to seek the death penalty via federal courts in the case (because there is no Death Penalty in Massachusetts.)


Offline Callie Del Noire

Re: Explosions Rock the Boston Marathon
« Reply #192 on: April 22, 2013, 03:22:16 PM »
They say in the video linked above that the charge of WMD is a federal legal term to define pretty much any bomb.

The charge of WMD allows the possibility of the prosecution to seek the death penalty via federal courts in the case (because there is no Death Penalty in Massachusetts.)

Well I think it should be persued as a state crime.. TILL such time as you can prove it crosses state lines. If the conspiracy/planners did this across state lines.. that makes it federal.

Offline Moraline

Re: Explosions Rock the Boston Marathon
« Reply #193 on: April 22, 2013, 03:24:02 PM »
Well I think it should be persued as a state crime.. TILL such time as you can prove it crosses state lines. If the conspiracy/planners did this across state lines.. that makes it federal.
It's too late. He's already been officially charged. They read those charges to him in his hospital bed.  (That's what the video above is all about.)

Offline Ephiral

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Re: Explosions Rock the Boston Marathon
« Reply #194 on: April 22, 2013, 03:59:00 PM »
That's, uh, kinda disgusting. "The justice system he actually violated won't kill him, so let's stretch definitions until we can kill him!"

Offline TheGlyphstone

Re: Explosions Rock the Boston Marathon
« Reply #195 on: April 22, 2013, 04:10:32 PM »
Do you guys think that a petition to make sure these two criminals are treated AS criminals, as opposed to trying to make this out to a 'terrorist attack' would get any traction?
It'd get you accused of being a damn dirty commie terrorist sympathizer, probably.

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Re: Explosions Rock the Boston Marathon
« Reply #196 on: April 22, 2013, 04:16:59 PM »
They seem to be following the logical course of throwing everything at him including the kitchen sink because once the bargaining starts it's hard to add charges with out hard new evidence.  There is going to be a lot of bargaining going on.

Offline Pumpkin Seeds

Re: Explosions Rock the Boston Marathon
« Reply #197 on: April 22, 2013, 05:04:49 PM »
Yeah, a lot of times the initial charges are just a bluff.  The prosecution just tries to build up as much fear and intimidation as possible so that there is more room and power to negotiate.

Online Valerian

Re: Explosions Rock the Boston Marathon
« Reply #198 on: April 22, 2013, 08:48:24 PM »
That's, uh, kinda disgusting. "The justice system he actually violated won't kill him, so let's stretch definitions until we can kill him!"
Well, a very quick google search hasn't found anything as to the official reasons why, but it's possible that they're charging him in federal court at least partly as an attempt to avoid accusations of bias on the part of state / local investigators, yes?  In the same way that changes of venue to other counties are common for murders that stir up a lot of local feeling.

Offline Formless

Re: Explosions Rock the Boston Marathon
« Reply #199 on: April 23, 2013, 04:12:16 AM »
I'm not sure who will agree with me on this but ...

Someone who takes away more than one life should be sentenced to death immediately , once proven that he committed the murder.