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Author Topic: Explosions Rock the Boston Marathon  (Read 6061 times)

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Offline RubySlippers

Re: Explosions Rock the Boston Marathon
« Reply #150 on: April 20, 2013, 10:59:50 PM »
...The Public Safety Exception is a completely different set of rules/exemptions than those governing enemy combatants/wartime rules. If he were an 'enemy combatant', he wouldn't be getting any Miranda rights at all, he'd be getting disappeared out to Guatanamo or Syria or something. This situation is exactly why the public safety exception was written and affirmed by the Supreme Court in the first place - in 1980, I don't see even the flimsiest argument why it's not appropriate here.
http://www.fbi.gov/stats-services/publications/law-enforcement-bulletin/february2011/legal_digest

I have one the law enforcement and the FBI among others said they worked alone and with both eliminated as threats what is the security risk they are basing this on. And if he wakes up and insists on a lawyer they have no grounds to refuse unless they placed him under Military code of laws and he is a naturalized American he has rights.

This could be an issue if they argue in court a testimony collected is to be used and the defense says they had no grounds by the government own statements to assume an immediate risk, a judge could toss the evidence out then what?

Just pointing out this should be handled with the assumption all the defendants right be upheld to the book just in case.

Offline consortium11

Re: Explosions Rock the Boston Marathon
« Reply #151 on: April 20, 2013, 11:01:33 PM »
I can't believe there's even a question of whether or not a US citizen facing criminal charges in the US will get a lawyer, Miranda rights read, etc. I guess several senators released a statement calling for him not to be given a lawyer and whatnot, among them John McCain. That one made me go holy what the fuck - I realize the US is probably not going to put the bombing suspect through what McCain had to endure but you would think that he would be concerned with giving other people civil rights.

Then again, he is a Republican, maverick or not. >.>

The Republicans may be getting the press but in reality it's Obama and his administration you need to look at for corrupting Miranda.

Specifically you need to look at the memo Holder sent out in October 2010 and specifically the part that states:

3. There may be exceptional cases in which, although all relevant public safety questions have been asked, agents nonetheless conclude that continued unwarned interrogation is necessary to collect valuable and timely intelligence not related to any immediate threat, and that the government's interest in obtaining this intelligence outweighs the disadvantages of proceeding with unwarned interrogation.

Put simply, under the Obama administration they never have to read someone their Miranda rights as long as there is other information (even not relating to an immediate threat) they want.

Offline Trieste

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Re: Explosions Rock the Boston Marathon
« Reply #152 on: April 21, 2013, 06:12:03 AM »
It clearly wasn't obvious so I should probably clarify that the last sentence of that post was tongue-in-cheek.  :-)

Offline RubySlippers

Re: Explosions Rock the Boston Marathon
« Reply #153 on: April 21, 2013, 08:45:16 AM »
Okay but what if the suspect wakes up and with witnesses and a recording system his first words are: I will not talk before I have a lawyer.

The instant that happens by Constitutional rights and precedent he has right to a legal defense and they said this would be a civilian system matter he has rights. If they refuse any judge would be compelled to toss out everything said after that if under duress at all.

This could get very sticky that is all I am saying unless every right he has is upheld.

Offline Oniya

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Re: Explosions Rock the Boston Marathon
« Reply #154 on: April 21, 2013, 09:47:08 AM »
Then they get him a lawyer.  That's what we're supposed to do in this country.


Offline Dashenka

Re: Explosions Rock the Boston Marathon
« Reply #155 on: April 21, 2013, 10:25:04 AM »
Chezhnyan terrorists don't deserve lawyers. Execute them in public in the half time of a big sports match.

Offline Scribbles

Re: Explosions Rock the Boston Marathon
« Reply #156 on: April 21, 2013, 12:08:58 PM »
I can understand the anger but I personally believe that the best way to treat a terrorist is with an even hand. Otherwise, you'll just end up creating a martyr.

Offline Oniya

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Re: Explosions Rock the Boston Marathon
« Reply #157 on: April 21, 2013, 12:20:32 PM »
John Adams himself defended the British soldiers that were a part of the 'Boston Massacre'. 

Other than that - what Scribbles said.

Offline gaggedLouise

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Re: Explosions Rock the Boston Marathon
« Reply #158 on: April 21, 2013, 12:24:27 PM »
I fully understand your anger, Dashenka, but having the guy hanged (in public, or whatever way it's done) without any attempt at a fair trial is going to inspire new guys doing the same thing.

Then they get him a lawyer.  That's what we're supposed to do in this country.


Yes, he should have a lawyer for sure, but what kind of truth will they get from him? He's the only surviving witness at this point who can offer any insight into what drove the plot, under U.S. law he can't be accused of perjury or anything substantial even if he tells a bunch of tall tales, and nothing that comes only from his testimony can be decisive in sentencing him, right? Also he has damn little to lose by anything he does, especially if he was thinking of becoming a martyr all along. Plus he may never be able to talk again, meaning he'd have to be heard by him offering replies in writing. And to boot, he's likely to be angry when he wakes up. It's going to be a *very* tough, and spmetimes boring,  trial.
« Last Edit: April 21, 2013, 12:28:30 PM by gaggedLouise »

Offline Callie Del Noire

Re: Explosions Rock the Boston Marathon
« Reply #159 on: April 21, 2013, 12:29:47 PM »
Chezhnyan terrorists don't deserve lawyers. Execute them in public in the half time of a big sports match.

You know the difference between a partisan, freedom fighter and terrorist?

Damn little. Actions from one angle in one time are 'patriotic' and 'terroristic' in another.

You know what lets us keep that line from fading?

Respecting our own laws and practices. We keep to the rules when they don't. We don't whittle away at them. We don't get fucking selective with them. We DO NOT every put up a barrier between us and them. We try them in the light of day by the rules we profess to follow. We find them guilty.

Then we sentence them by the laws we put up. And we don't EVER stoop to their level.


I know some of our allies play fast and loose with the law. That it's possible to face jail time without representation, the ability to face our accussers or even due process.

If we do that..those that kill the innocent in our lands and theirs.. win. We ARE the villain they make us out to be.

Following the law ain't supposed to be easy. Fair isn't easy. Just isn't always what you want it to be. But then..when it's your turn to face the press of the law.. you know you'll get the fairness and justice you merit. 

Offline Trieste

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Re: Explosions Rock the Boston Marathon
« Reply #160 on: April 21, 2013, 01:07:13 PM »
I fully understand your anger, Dashenka, but having the guy hanged (in public, or whatever way it's done) without any attempt at a fair trial is going to inspire new guys doing the same thing.

Yes, he should have a lawyer for sure, but what kind of truth will they get from him? He's the only surviving witness at this point who can offer any insight into what drove the plot, under U.S. law he can't be accused of perjury or anything substantial even if he tells a bunch of tall tales, and nothing that comes only from his testimony can be decisive in sentencing him, right? Also he has damn little to lose by anything he does, especially if he was thinking of becoming a martyr all along. Plus he may never be able to talk again, meaning he'd have to be heard by him offering replies in writing. And to boot, he's likely to be angry when he wakes up. It's going to be a *very* tough, and spmetimes boring,  trial.

I think you might be referring to the fifth amendment against self-incrimination. If you are, it doesn't quite have the wide reach described here. When testifying on the stand or talking with police, he can invoke his fifth amendment rights. If he answers, however, it can be used against him - which is why that is part of the Miranda warning. "Anything you say can be used against you in court." Also, this is a nuance so you may want to confirm it with a lawyer, but I believe you cannot be compelled to testify at your own trial. You can be compelled to testify at someone else's trial and then that testimony can be used against you if I'm remembering correctly. So he has some rights against self-incrimination but he doesn't have a magic "I can say anything and not have it admissible in court" exemption.

Well, that is, unless they violate his rights as a citizen.

Offline Dashenka

Re: Explosions Rock the Boston Marathon
« Reply #161 on: April 21, 2013, 01:25:09 PM »
You know the difference between a partisan, freedom fighter and terrorist?

Damn little. Actions from one angle in one time are 'patriotic' and 'terroristic' in another.

You know what lets us keep that line from fading?

Respecting our own laws and practices. We keep to the rules when they don't. We don't whittle away at them. We don't get fucking selective with them. We DO NOT every put up a barrier between us and them. We try them in the light of day by the rules we profess to follow. We find them guilty.

Then we sentence them by the laws we put up. And we don't EVER stoop to their level.


I know some of our allies play fast and loose with the law. That it's possible to face jail time without representation, the ability to face our accussers or even due process.

If we do that..those that kill the innocent in our lands and theirs.. win. We ARE the villain they make us out to be.

Following the law ain't supposed to be easy. Fair isn't easy. Just isn't always what you want it to be. But then..when it's your turn to face the press of the law.. you know you'll get the fairness and justice you merit.


I fail to see how blowing up people in Boston and Moscow is fighting for freedom or patriotic in any way. It's the trials and everything that makes them do it again. They can't die. They get arrested, get a fair trial and then go to prison for the rest of their life. Sounds like a fair deal. Family's rich, they get their 73 virgins and some 50 years free food and shelter.

Yes that will stop any desperate terrorist from doing it again.

I understand the US is bound by law and stuff like that but what happened to that law at Guantanamo Bay? Or when Bin Laden was to be trialled? Your the country thats invented 'bending the rules', this is the ideal situation to bend the rules a bit :)
« Last Edit: April 21, 2013, 01:26:48 PM by Dashenka »

Offline ShadowFox89Topic starter

Re: Explosions Rock the Boston Marathon
« Reply #162 on: April 21, 2013, 01:35:20 PM »
Your the country thats invented 'bending the rules', this is the ideal situation to bend the rules a bit :)

 Except we aren't? Except "bending the rules" is what every country does, whether or not it comes out to public knowledge? Except.... I could keep going, but the US is hardly unique. And hardly the first to do something like Guantanamo (see also: how Australia was formed)

Offline Trieste

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Re: Explosions Rock the Boston Marathon
« Reply #163 on: April 21, 2013, 01:39:25 PM »

I fail to see how blowing up people in Boston and Moscow is fighting for freedom or patriotic in any way. It's the trials and everything that makes them do it again. They can't die. They get arrested, get a fair trial and then go to prison for the rest of their life. Sounds like a fair deal. Family's rich, they get their 73 virgins and some 50 years free food and shelter.

Yes that will stop any desperate terrorist from doing it again.

I understand the US is bound by law and stuff like that but what happened to that law at Guantanamo Bay? Or when Bin Laden was to be trialled? Your the country thats invented 'bending the rules', this is the ideal situation to bend the rules a bit :)

While what you're saying makes sense, you're missing the point a little bit. It doesn't actually matter what they do as much as it matters what we do in response. The US has done some things I'm not proud of, certainly, but to me and to citizens like me it is a matter of character. We can be better than that and I always will advocate that we do so.

Offline Dashenka

Re: Explosions Rock the Boston Marathon
« Reply #164 on: April 21, 2013, 01:47:40 PM »
While what you're saying makes sense, you're missing the point a little bit. It doesn't actually matter what they do as much as it matters what we do in response. The US has done some things I'm not proud of, certainly, but to me and to citizens like me it is a matter of character. We can be better than that and I always will advocate that we do so.

I understand and accept that but all that is achieved by giving the man a fair trial is that basically put him on a stage and give him his moments of fame. For example Anders Breivik, who killed all those young people in Oslo, Norway. Norway being one of the most open and fair countries in the world gave him a fair trial where he could say what he wanted and why he did it, thus giving him what he wants. Attention and to tell his story. No matter how sick and twisted there will always be people who sympathise with him and will copy or follow him. Had they just shot him right there on his little island, everybody would see him as a crazy psychopath.

What happens to this Charnaev guy is that during his trial he will explain why he did it and somewhere on the planet people will think.. hmm the guy is actually right, I'm gonna do that too. So by giving him a fair trial, in my opinion, you are making it worse. This isn't just a homecide or a traffic offence we're talking about here.

Offline Ephiral

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Re: Explosions Rock the Boston Marathon
« Reply #165 on: April 21, 2013, 01:49:38 PM »
I understand and accept that but all that is achieved by giving the man a fair trial is that basically put him on a stage and give him his moments of fame. For example Anders Breivik, who killed all those young people in Oslo, Norway. Norway being one of the most open and fair countries in the world gave him a fair trial where he could say what he wanted and why he did it, thus giving him what he wants. Attention and to tell his story. No matter how sick and twisted there will always be people who sympathise with him and will copy or follow him. Had they just shot him right there on his little island, everybody would see him as a crazy psychopath.

What happens to this Charnaev guy is that during his trial he will explain why he did it and somewhere on the planet people will think.. hmm the guy is actually right, I'm gonna do that too. So by giving him a fair trial, in my opinion, you are making it worse. This isn't just a homecide or a traffic offence we're talking about here.
Your logic would hold if you could point to a single copycat of Breivik anywhere ever.

Offline Scribbles

Re: Explosions Rock the Boston Marathon
« Reply #166 on: April 21, 2013, 02:04:01 PM »
Dashenka,

The people that indoctrinate the young (or foolish) into becoming terrorists absolutely love it when their enemies show any signs of hypocrisy as it allows them to point toward specific events and say, "See, their laws and words are so pretty but their people are savage and show their true colours in their bloodthirsty actions." We simply can't afford to give these propagandists ammunition.

Offline Moraline

Re: Explosions Rock the Boston Marathon
« Reply #167 on: April 21, 2013, 05:13:00 PM »
I think first there should be a hearing to determine if this was an act of terrorism or a criminal act. The way I see it, those things are not the same.

If he's a criminal or a deranged lunatic then he should be treated with civilian laws.

However, in my opinion these guys were terrorists. He should be treated as an enemy combatant.

Presuming they were terrorists - They thought it through, they planned it, then they executed an act of terror to declare war on the people of the US. These aren't a couple of people that robbed a bank and deserve a chance at rehabilitation (which is what the penal system is for.) They weren't a couple of psychopaths and the survivor doesn't need counseling.

He should be sent to a military base where information is extracted from him by whatever means are allowed/necessary then he should be shoved into a cell some place along with other terrorist/enemy soldiers until he is sent to trial then executed for war crimes.

Offline Trieste

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Re: Explosions Rock the Boston Marathon
« Reply #168 on: April 21, 2013, 05:31:50 PM »
Except the fact of the matter is that he is not an enemy combatant - he is a US citizen. As a US citizen, I fully expect and deserve that my rights will be respected if ever I was brought into custody. I expect the same for other US citizens. As soon as we granted him citizenship, his right to a lawyer, his right against self-incrimination, his right to a speedy trial, his right to face his accusers - all of those were signed, sealed, and delivered.

I think first there should be a hearing to determine if this was an act of terrorism or a criminal act. The way I see it, those things are not the same.

I believe that's what the trial is supposed to do - going into the trial, law enforcement decides what laws he potentially broke. Then throughout the trial, it's determined whether he actually broke them. That's... that's the whole point of a trial. >.>

Offline Scribbles

Re: Explosions Rock the Boston Marathon
« Reply #169 on: April 21, 2013, 06:06:45 PM »
Trieste,

Speaking of which, I'm really hoping the trial goes smoothly. My heart's in knots just at the thought of it.

Offline Moraline

Re: Explosions Rock the Boston Marathon
« Reply #170 on: April 21, 2013, 06:14:32 PM »
I understand your desire to protect the rights of citizens.

Perhaps they should give him a regular trial but if he's seen as a terrorist and not as a common criminal then perhaps he should be treated differently? Maybe?

Of course if he is part of a larger terrorist group and he goes to trial... then during the weeks/months that it takes for the trail to play out... all of his terrorist buddies will be long gone and off planning to blow up more innocent children.

In my opinion, terrorists should not be treated like common criminals. To much is at stake to be that lax.

Offline Trieste

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Re: Explosions Rock the Boston Marathon
« Reply #171 on: April 21, 2013, 06:24:00 PM »
I think that if he is guilty of the bombing, he should be treated like the murderer he is. He took peoples' lives away. I also think he's only 19 and 19 year olds are not always the best at recognizing the effects they have on other people. I sincerely hope that, if he is guilty, maturity only brings with it a nigh-unbearable burden of guilt. I'm personally okay with that.

He messed with my home and I want him to pay. I do. But that's not what the justice system is for, and that's not why I'm working my ass off to contribute what I can to the justice system. The justice system is there to keep him the fuck away from other people, at the very least. I know it's sort of up in the air as to whether the US justice system is rehabilitative or punitive (and it really needs to make up its mind). And if he has buddies that are planning to commit further crimes, then we need to catch up with them - but I think it's a mistake to think of the justice system as being a deterrent, not for crimes like this. Yeah, okay, you don't steal gum at the grocery store because it might be an inconvenience. You don't speed gratuitously because you might get pulled over. But making a bomb and carrying out the kind of crimes that have been committed here? I don't think anything, up to and including the death penalty, really counts as a deterrent there.

Trieste,

Speaking of which, I'm really hoping the trial goes smoothly. My heart's in knots just at the thought of it.

I hope so, too.

Offline RubySlippers

Re: Explosions Rock the Boston Marathon
« Reply #172 on: April 21, 2013, 06:28:10 PM »
Simply put the US Constitution is not there to make the governments life easier, its largely there to limit the government and affirm the rights of a citizen to in this case due process is fully observed and this is supposed to apply to non-citizens there are rare exceptions POWs are under the Geneva Conventions. I never bought the enemy combatants marker if they are not POW or partisan fighters as per the Geneva Conventions they are criminals and criminals should be dealt with under either US law OR international criminal law in the Hague courts.

Offline Kythia

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Re: Explosions Rock the Boston Marathon
« Reply #173 on: April 21, 2013, 07:03:06 PM »
In my opinion, terrorists should not be treated like common criminals. To much is at stake to be that lax.

The issue there is that, as Callie has stated, its not an unambiguous definition.  What if Iran - to pick a country at pseudo random - started defining terms like "terrorist", "enemy combatant" etc. as people working against their government?  Set up a Guantanomo or similar, or started not giving trials, to US Citizens?  I dont think anyone would shrug and say "well, turnabout is fair play" but equally the US is highly visible.  And as a wise spider mutant once said "With great power comes great responsibility".  The best reason for following rules is so that everyone else does, IMHO.

I get that in this case he's a US Citizen, Iran isn't involved, etc.  I'm just talking about the wider point.


Offline Callie Del Noire

Re: Explosions Rock the Boston Marathon
« Reply #174 on: April 21, 2013, 07:52:37 PM »
.

I understand the US is bound by law and stuff like that but what happened to that law at Guantanamo Bay? Or when Bin Laden was to be trialled? Your the country thats invented 'bending the rules', this is the ideal situation to bend the rules a bit :)

emphasis mine. This from the person who is living in London. I find it ironic given that if the US justice system is modeling itself after anyone's questionable legal practices its the UK.  look into phrases like 'Diplock Courts' , Prevention of Terrorism Act (Northern Ireland) (Starting around the 1970s on)

The UK has LONG had the legal practice of locking up accused terrorists with little to no sustainable proof in a normal court. Or with the abilty to face (or even cross examine) your accusers, or retain legal counsel. Or in some cases even attend your own trial.

I have spoken against these practices here in the US. Got called a 'softie' and 'commie' for speaking out against the patriot act in the early part of this century. Had a Chief Petty Officer try and get my clearance pulled for speaking out, off shift and out of uniform, against it.

My biggest issues with the Bush 2 White House had to deal with our legal stance on terror and what it could lead to. Last years NDAA terrifies me more than words. That you can 'automagically' lose the right to trial, council, or even to know your charges and be sentence in absentia is terrifying. Who defines what an 'enemy' of the government?  How long till that definition goes from a single sentence to a long convoluted phrase that can be summed up as 'anyone that the government thinks will oppose them in anyway."

That being said.. and my comments on the UK legal system aside.. let me sum it up like this.

Are we at war with his country? No..he's an American Citizen.

He's committed mass murder. Try him. Put him in a super-max and let him rot. Or put a needle in his arm.

When you let the person doing the crimes set the tier on which he or she they are considered at. You let the person doing the crime set the battle ground for consideration. You lose standing in the public eye and in future cases. The UK learned that with the hunger strikers in Northern Ireland.
« Last Edit: April 21, 2013, 08:39:43 PM by Callie Del Noire »