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Author Topic: Explosions Rock the Boston Marathon  (Read 6054 times)

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Offline Dashenka

Re: Explosions Rock the Boston Marathon
« Reply #125 on: April 20, 2013, 04:09:51 AM »
There was an earth quake in China within an hour of them catching the second bomber, but none of the major networks so much as mentioned the 100+ people who died in that, or the one in Iran earlier in the day that killed people. The bottom line is... if it happens in the US, it's treated and seen as more important, which is bull. A human life is a human life, and the region in which a person lives does not make their death more important than another elsewhere.

+1

Offline Aislinn

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Re: Explosions Rock the Boston Marathon
« Reply #126 on: April 20, 2013, 04:14:18 AM »
There was an earth quake in China within an hour of them catching the second bomber, but none of the major networks so much as mentioned the 100+ people who died in that, or the one in Iran earlier in the day that killed people. The bottom line is... if it happens in the US, it's treated and seen as more important, which is bull. A human life is a human life, and the region in which a person lives does not make their death more important than another elsewhere.

My problem comes in when people equate what the news does with an inflated American sense of self...which is not the case. In most cases, one thing has absolutely nothing to do with the other.

Offline Dashenka

Re: Explosions Rock the Boston Marathon
« Reply #127 on: April 20, 2013, 04:17:00 AM »
My problem comes in when people equate what the news does with an inflated American sense of self...which is not the case. In most cases, one thing has absolutely nothing to do with the other.

The Americans don't have that inflated sense of self, the world gives it to the Americans. Just as the majority of the world think of Russians as violent drunk imbeciles who can't drive a motor vehicle :) You shouldn't care (too much) what the world thinks of you.

Offline Bloodied Porcelain

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Re: Explosions Rock the Boston Marathon
« Reply #128 on: April 20, 2013, 04:17:52 AM »
Apologies, numbers from the initial news report on the quake in China have been updated. 32 dead, 600+ injured. Still a far larger number than what happened in Boston but the major news networks didn't even mention it, so the point still stands.

My problem comes in when people equate what the news does with an inflated American sense of self...which is not the case. In most cases, one thing has absolutely nothing to do with the other.

You don't think Americans have an inflated sense of self? Really? Then what do you say to people who's comments on the news story online about the quake in China or the one in Iran are things like "sorry, too busy following the story about the bomber to read this." Perhaps you do not have an inflated sense of importance, but if you don't think most people in this country don't care about tragedies elsewhere because they're not "close to home", I think you're being a bit naive.

The news reports what will get them the best ratings. Had any major news network in the US had stopped reporting the stuff about the bomber being caught to mention an earth quake in China, most people would have lost their ever loving minds, because they don't care. It happened here, so it's more important.

Offline Aislinn

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Re: Explosions Rock the Boston Marathon
« Reply #129 on: April 20, 2013, 04:25:25 AM »
Apologies, numbers from the initial news report on the quake in China have been updated. 32 dead, 600+ injured. Still a far larger number than what happened in Boston but the major news networks didn't even mention it, so the point still stands.

You don't think Americans have an inflated sense of self? Really? Then what do you say to people who's comments on the news story online about the quake in China or the one in Iran are things like "sorry, too busy following the story about the bomber to read this." Perhaps you do not have an inflated sense of importance, but if you don't think most people in this country don't care about tragedies elsewhere because they're not "close to home", I think you're being a bit naive.

The news reports what will get them the best ratings. Had any major news network in the US had stopped reporting the stuff about the bomber being caught to mention an earth quake in China, most people would have lost their ever loving minds, because they don't care. It happened here, so it's more important.

I choose to believe that a good deal of Americans have a better head on their shoulders then you are portraying. I watched several news stations tonight that had stories on the China quake in depth....


Offline ShadowFox89Topic starter

Re: Explosions Rock the Boston Marathon
« Reply #130 on: April 20, 2013, 04:30:32 AM »
You don't think Americans have an inflated sense of self? Really? Then what do you say to people who's comments on the news story online about the quake in China or the one in Iran are things like "sorry, too busy following the story about the bomber to read this." Perhaps you do not have an inflated sense of importance, but if you don't think most people in this country don't care about tragedies elsewhere because they're not "close to home", I think you're being a bit naive.

 People posting in the online news comments are some of the stupidest, most bigoted idiots you can find. It's like claiming that Jersey Shore represents the entire New England coast.

Offline Bloodied Porcelain

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Re: Explosions Rock the Boston Marathon
« Reply #131 on: April 20, 2013, 04:35:02 AM »
I choose to believe that a good deal of Americans have a better head on their shoulders then you are portraying. I watched several news stations tonight that had stories on the China quake in depth....

Until Americans chose to behave better than they do, I'm taking them at face value. I'm quite tired of giving people the benefit of the doubt only to have it thrown back in my face. I swear if I hear "the USA is the greatest nation on earth" one more time I may lose my mind. It's so... self important and arrogant. I'm cool with "proud to be American" and that kind of thing, but when it goes so far as to elevate us above everyone else and claim that we're some pinnacle that everyone else should try to live up to, all I can do is facepalm.

People posting in the online news comments are some of the stupidest, most bigoted idiots you can find. It's like claiming that Jersey Shore represents the entire New England coast.

And the people I know in person who when I asked about the quake basically said they didn't care? People who I would like to think are decent people, but who are of the general mind set as the rest of the nation that things that happen here are somehow more important and worthy of their attention?


Note: I fully admit that I am about as far from an optimist as you can get. I call things as I see them and consider myself a realist. For good or for bad, if I notice trends, I'm going to make note of them and they're going to color my view of things until something comes along to prove me wrong. So far, nothing has proven me wrong on the general trend that a great number of Americans consider this country "better" than others and "more important", as if the rest of the world would cease to turn without us and should stop what they're doing to pay attention to our troubles. And yes, other countries totally indulge ours in that demand, doing just as they're expected, which is totally part of the problem, but I find the general American attitude toward these things to be far more obnoxious than anything else.
« Last Edit: April 20, 2013, 04:38:28 AM by Bloodied Porcelain »

Offline ShadowFox89Topic starter

Re: Explosions Rock the Boston Marathon
« Reply #132 on: April 20, 2013, 04:39:43 AM »
And the people I know in person who when I asked about the quake basically said they didn't care? People who I would like to think are decent people, but who are of the general mind set as the rest of the nation that things that happen here are somehow more important and worthy of their attention?

 Honestly, I'm too tired to argue. But we're getting off topic here.

Offline Aislinn

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Re: Explosions Rock the Boston Marathon
« Reply #133 on: April 20, 2013, 04:41:33 AM »
Until Americans chose to behave better than they do, I'm taking them at face value. I'm quite tired of giving people the benefit of the doubt only to have it thrown back in my face. I swear if I hear "the USA is the greatest nation on earth" one more time I may lose my mind. It's so... self important and arrogant. I'm cool with "proud to be American" and that kind of thing, but when it goes so far as to elevate us above everyone else and claim that we're some pinnacle that everyone else should try to live up to, all I can do is facepalm.

So you are going to judge the group as a whole? So since you personally have issues with Americans, let's just lump them all together and consider their actions as a whole instead of individually? That's a dangerous path...

But I'm done. This is a topic for a reason. If people want to debate this, there are other places to do so. I'm not going to engage further and take away from the original intent of this thread.

Offline Bloodied Porcelain

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Re: Explosions Rock the Boston Marathon
« Reply #134 on: April 20, 2013, 04:41:54 AM »
Honestly, I'm too tired to argue. But we're getting off topic here.

Agreed, I apologize for derailing things.

Offline gaggedLouise

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Re: Explosions Rock the Boston Marathon
« Reply #135 on: April 20, 2013, 08:25:37 AM »
It appears that Dzhokhar wasn't read his Miranda rights when he was arrested, I hope they remember to do that later so whatever he says in interrogation doesn't get compromised.  ::)

http://edition.cnn.com/video/?hpt=hp_c2#/video/us/2013/04/20/erin-bts-boston-bomber-suspects-miranda-rights.cnn

Offline Ephiral

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Re: Explosions Rock the Boston Marathon
« Reply #136 on: April 20, 2013, 08:41:11 AM »
They're claiming they don't need to under the public safety exception. Because somehow war rules and enemy combatant status apply to a US citizen on US soil. War with whom, exactly? Now that sounds like a tricky question, citizen...

Offline gaggedLouise

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Re: Explosions Rock the Boston Marathon
« Reply #137 on: April 20, 2013, 08:45:36 AM »
They're claiming they don't need to under the public safety exception. Because somehow war rules and enemy combatant status apply to a US citizen on US soil. War with whom, exactly? Now that sounds like a tricky question, citizen...

*nods* It would be good if the "unlawful combatant" tag could be used with more restraint than it was in the Bush years.

Offline DarklingAlice

Re: Explosions Rock the Boston Marathon
« Reply #138 on: April 20, 2013, 09:24:22 AM »
There was an earth quake in China within an hour of them catching the second bomber, but none of the major networks so much as mentioned the 100+ people who died in that, or the one in Iran earlier in the day that killed people. The bottom line is... if it happens in the US, it's treated and seen as more important, which is bull. A human life is a human life, and the region in which a person lives does not make their death more important than another elsewhere.

Mmmm...I think this is at risk of conflating a few things. Everybody makes a much bigger deal out of the actions of humans than so called 'acts of god'. For instance, normal yearly influenza kills more US citizens every year than terrorism has killed since 9/11...yet the DHS is better funded than the CDC and more people consider terrorism a personal threat. It's just how we prioritize things.

Offline RubySlippers

Re: Explosions Rock the Boston Marathon
« Reply #139 on: April 20, 2013, 09:37:19 AM »
I have one issue they didn't Mirandize the suspect, so they are risking evidence being thrown out and a remote chance a court could uphold his rights and toss out the state case as a result.

My guess the defense will use that going for a plea bargain there is a chance the suspect could not get life without parole over that mistake. Remote but why would they take the risk of not doing this by the book I don't get it?

Offline Nimmy

Re: Explosions Rock the Boston Marathon
« Reply #140 on: April 20, 2013, 09:45:03 AM »
This is speculation on my part, but news reports indicate that the suspect was bleeding and in poor condition. They may want to wait to read him his rights until the 1) know he's going to survive from his wounds and 2) is in a state where he can acknowledge that he heard and understood what he was just read.

Again, speculation and conjecture from someone who doesn't really have any experiences with law enforcement.

Offline gaggedLouise

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Re: Explosions Rock the Boston Marathon
« Reply #141 on: April 20, 2013, 10:14:53 AM »
Agree it's very useful if they can make sure he survives (and without brain damage) or there won't be a whole lot they can ask him about. Hopefully he does come out of this soon and they'll be able to question him. It will be interesting to see if he'd admit anyone assisted them. Most of the time in this kind of terrorist attack or attempted killing for political reasons, there is some kind of supporting circle.

Offline consortium11

Re: Explosions Rock the Boston Marathon
« Reply #142 on: April 20, 2013, 10:41:48 AM »
I have one issue they didn't Mirandize the suspect, so they are risking evidence being thrown out and a remote chance a court could uphold his rights and toss out the state case as a result.

My guess the defense will use that going for a plea bargain there is a chance the suspect could not get life without parole over that mistake. Remote but why would they take the risk of not doing this by the book I don't get it?

I'm no expert on US law but isn't there a general exception for Miranda with regards to terrorism?

Offline Healergirl

Re: Explosions Rock the Boston Marathon
« Reply #143 on: April 20, 2013, 10:49:31 AM »
Nimmy raised an excellent point:  It is not enough to merely read the suspect his Miranda rights, he must clearly and unambiguously acknowledge that he understands them.  If he is wounded, he is by definition at a reduced capacity, this has bitten more than one prosecution in the ass.

Offline TheGlyphstone

Re: Explosions Rock the Boston Marathon
« Reply #144 on: April 20, 2013, 11:04:51 AM »
They're claiming they don't need to under the public safety exception. Because somehow war rules and enemy combatant status apply to a US citizen on US soil. War with whom, exactly? Now that sounds like a tricky question, citizen...

...The Public Safety Exception is a completely different set of rules/exemptions than those governing enemy combatants/wartime rules. If he were an 'enemy combatant', he wouldn't be getting any Miranda rights at all, he'd be getting disappeared out to Guatanamo or Syria or something. This situation is exactly why the public safety exception was written and affirmed by the Supreme Court in the first place - in 1980, I don't see even the flimsiest argument why it's not appropriate here.
Quote
According to the Supreme Court, the public safety exception is triggered when police officers have an objectively reasonable need to protect the police or the public from immediate danger. Because the standard is objective, the availability of the exception does not depend on subjective motivation of the officers.
Quote
The "public safety" exception to Miranda is a powerful tool with a modern application for law enforcement. When police officers are confronted by a concern for public safety, Miranda warnings need not be provided prior to asking questions directed at neutralizing an imminent threat, and voluntary statements made in response to such narrowly tailored questions can be admitted at trial. Once the questions turn from those designed to resolve the concern for safety to questions designed solely to elicit incriminating statements, the questioning falls outside the scope of the exception and within the traditional rules of Miranda.

http://www.fbi.gov/stats-services/publications/law-enforcement-bulletin/february2011/legal_digest
« Last Edit: April 20, 2013, 01:10:54 PM by TheGlyphstone »

Offline Pumpkin Seeds

Re: Explosions Rock the Boston Marathon
« Reply #145 on: April 20, 2013, 05:52:07 PM »
Well was he technically arrested?  He may have been taken into custody but an actual arrest might not have been made.  I have seen many times where the police place a guard or detain someone in the hospital, but do not actually make the arrest until after that person is discharged.  I think this has something to do with processing the person.

Offline Trieste

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Re: Explosions Rock the Boston Marathon
« Reply #146 on: April 20, 2013, 06:56:34 PM »
"Everyone in the whole entire country is exactly like the people that I know and dislike personally." Shine on you crazy diamond.

For everyone else, CNN is reporting that the recovered suspect has throat injuries and might not be able to say what went on. Me, I'm sure he can write it, though, or type it.

I can't believe there's even a question of whether or not a US citizen facing criminal charges in the US will get a lawyer, Miranda rights read, etc. I guess several senators released a statement calling for him not to be given a lawyer and whatnot, among them John McCain. That one made me go holy what the fuck - I realize the US is probably not going to put the bombing suspect through what McCain had to endure but you would think that he would be concerned with giving other people civil rights.

Then again, he is a Republican, maverick or not. >.>

Offline gaggedLouise

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Re: Explosions Rock the Boston Marathon
« Reply #147 on: April 20, 2013, 07:12:33 PM »
"Everyone in the whole entire country is exactly like the people that I know and dislike personally." Shine on you crazy diamond.

For everyone else, CNN is reporting that the recovered suspect has throat injuries and might not be able to say what went on. Me, I'm sure he can write it, though, or type it.

I can't believe there's even a question of whether or not a US citizen facing criminal charges in the US will get a lawyer, Miranda rights read, etc. I guess several senators released a statement calling for him not to be given a lawyer and whatnot, among them John McCain. That one made me go holy what the fuck - I realize the US is probably not going to put the bombing suspect through what McCain had to endure but you would think that he would be concerned with giving other people civil rights.

Then again, he is a Republican, maverick or not. >.>

I share that view Trie, but considering the guy had only become a U.S. citizen last year (his brother wasn't one) there might be hotheads who would want him to be stripped of his citizenship right here and now, before there is any questioning.

Offline Trieste

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Re: Explosions Rock the Boston Marathon
« Reply #148 on: April 20, 2013, 07:16:45 PM »
I know.

But if we were only citizens until and unless it becomes inconvenient, the protections over citizens wouldn't mean very much, would they?  ::) I'm willing to bet that Beth Israel is getting a metric buttload of social engineering attempts right now by media and other interested parties.

Offline gaggedLouise

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Re: Explosions Rock the Boston Marathon
« Reply #149 on: April 20, 2013, 07:25:30 PM »
The petition to expel Piers Morgan is what crossed my mind. For what? for criticizing the gun lobby in a tv discussion, of course. I don't know if Morgan is a U.S. citizen but it shows how fast things can turn around even for a front-ranks TV personality.