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Author Topic: Fallon Fox: Transgendered Athletes in Sports  (Read 1669 times)

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Offline Caela

Re: Fallon Fox: Transgendered Athletes in Sports
« Reply #25 on: April 16, 2013, 07:41:41 PM »
My own personal opinion, is that gender shouldn't play into it at all in sports. It should just be: Here are the criteria, if you can meet them, you make the team regardless of what your sex is. I've never really understood why women should be forced to compete on what are, typically, viewed as second-class teams just because they're girls. If the girls can keep up with the boys, let them play with the boys. And vice-versa, regardless of what genitalia they were born with.

Offline Kythia

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Re: Fallon Fox: Transgendered Athletes in Sports
« Reply #26 on: April 16, 2013, 07:47:19 PM »
Because that could well - I suspect it would but I don't think we'll ever know for sure - result only in all male teams in some sports as women didn't make the criteria.  I see the options as split gender teams or no females involved in the sport at all.

Saying "these are the criteria" only works if the criteria are gender neutral.  If one is favoured its just a way of keeping it single gendered while pretending to be objective.

Offline consortium11Topic starter

Re: Fallon Fox: Transgendered Athletes in Sports
« Reply #27 on: April 16, 2013, 08:04:19 PM »
I think the reality is that if the rules were made completely gender-neutral for the big main-stream sports then you'd likely see the complete disappearance of women in them. As a general rule those mainstream sports... be they football/soccer, gridiron, rugby, cricket, tennis, basketball, baseball, Aussie Rules or almost anything you can think of... are sports which emphasis things men are generally better at.

Tennis is the example often brought up where women actually get a good deal out of it. Unlike most women's versions of sports where the women's league are seen as massively inferior and generally have far less economic rewards and profile, women's tennis has almost as high a profile as the men's game and basically equal remuneration (which some people actually take exception to due to the three/five sets divide). If the sport was gender-neutral I think even the best women would struggle to even make the first round of a Grand Slam.

What is important is that in sports where there isn't a big divide between the two that women get the opportunities they deserve. Motor Sport is pretty big news in the U.K. at the moment after some ill-advised/ignorant comments by legendary driver Sterling Moss. Motor Sport is an discipline where women shouldn't be at a large natural disadvantage to men and it's good that more and more we're seeing them compete on an even playing field. As much as people complain about Danica Patrick getting more attention then male drivers with similar results it's surely a good thing that she's competing and having at least some success at her level.

Offline Sethala

Re: Fallon Fox: Transgendered Athletes in Sports
« Reply #28 on: April 17, 2013, 10:09:56 PM »
My own personal opinion, is that gender shouldn't play into it at all in sports. It should just be: Here are the criteria, if you can meet them, you make the team regardless of what your sex is. I've never really understood why women should be forced to compete on what are, typically, viewed as second-class teams just because they're girls. If the girls can keep up with the boys, let them play with the boys. And vice-versa, regardless of what genitalia they were born with.

The problem with getting rid of both leagues and just having one for both genders, as others have pointed out, is that generally men are going to be much more able to fit the physical requirements of the sport.  So, as others have said, having one intermixed league will likely end up with getting rid of the women's league and not actually letting women play at all.

However... I'm curious what people would think of letting the "normal" league open up to both genders, but still have a women-only league.  This would only apply to sports like basketball and hockey where there's a separate women's league but the men's league is significantly more popular.  Basically, if a woman ends up being just as good at basketball as the top male players, she can join in, but since women that fit that criteria are significantly more rare than men, the women's league offers a secondary way for women to join in the sport.  (I might also say that a woman can't be in both leagues at the same time; she can retire from one to join the other, however.)

Offline Ephiral

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Re: Fallon Fox: Transgendered Athletes in Sports
« Reply #29 on: April 18, 2013, 12:07:44 AM »
Mmm... I dunno about that. One of the big problems I have with gender stereotyping when it comes to my daughter is just how many toys have the "normal" version and the version "for girls", which generally means it's pink and dumber. Thinking of extending that to not just toys but potential idols leaves a really bad taste in my mouth, at least.

Offline consortium11Topic starter

Re: Fallon Fox: Transgendered Athletes in Sports
« Reply #30 on: April 18, 2013, 07:32:40 AM »
However... I'm curious what people would think of letting the "normal" league open up to both genders, but still have a women-only league.  This would only apply to sports like basketball and hockey where there's a separate women's league but the men's league is significantly more popular.  Basically, if a woman ends up being just as good at basketball as the top male players, she can join in, but since women that fit that criteria are significantly more rare than men, the women's league offers a secondary way for women to join in the sport.  (I might also say that a woman can't be in both leagues at the same time; she can retire from one to join the other, however.)

As I understand it Basketball is like this already; there's no official rules preventing women from competing in the NBA as opposed to the WNBA. I seem to recall Mark Cuban making some noise about bringing in a female player on a trial although as with many Cuban things it came across as a bit of a publicity stunt.

My concern is that this may still kill of the women's leagues. In general the star players are going to be the best and so what would happen is that the star female players end up leaving the women's leagues for the men's. And what interest is there likely to be in watching a league where the most talented players leave each year?

Moreover, I also think it might end up leading a loss of stars in general. A female player moving to the NBA would go from being a big fish in a small pond to a tiny fish in a massive pond. The reality is that even the most talented female players are unlikely to be anything more than a squad player (at best) and may even struggle to get games at all. Instead they'd likely spend their whole time sat on the bench doing very little.

Offline Oniya

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Re: Fallon Fox: Transgendered Athletes in Sports
« Reply #31 on: April 18, 2013, 08:20:48 AM »
My concern is that this may still kill of the women's leagues. In general the star players are going to be the best and so what would happen is that the star female players end up leaving the women's leagues for the men's. And what interest is there likely to be in watching a league where the most talented players leave each year?

College basketball is a huge draw (March Madness, anyone?).  Every year, seniors (usually the most talented players) graduate and sometimes move on to other leagues.

Offline consortium11Topic starter

Re: Fallon Fox: Transgendered Athletes in Sports
« Reply #32 on: April 18, 2013, 09:46:42 AM »
College basketball is a huge draw (March Madness, anyone?).  Every year, seniors (usually the most talented players) graduate and sometimes move on to other leagues.

College sports are somewhat of an exception compared to professional sports though. If it applied to the pro-game then development and minor league teams would have much more support.

Offline Sethala

Re: Fallon Fox: Transgendered Athletes in Sports
« Reply #33 on: April 18, 2013, 01:31:18 PM »
Mmm... I dunno about that. One of the big problems I have with gender stereotyping when it comes to my daughter is just how many toys have the "normal" version and the version "for girls", which generally means it's pink and dumber. Thinking of extending that to not just toys but potential idols leaves a really bad taste in my mouth, at least.

Point, but how is that any different from, say, the current state of pro basketball, where the women's league is largely ignored and the men's league is given all of the attention?  I know it's not an ideal solution, but do you have a different one that would let exceptional women get just as much coverage as men?

Offline Tamhansen

Re: Fallon Fox: Transgendered Athletes in Sports
« Reply #34 on: April 28, 2013, 03:57:42 AM »
I think the main problem would be that there are a number of sports where transgendered women would have a serious advantage over those women who were born such. Take for example the 100 meter dash. The woman's WR is 10.49. Every single man competing on the top level runs that same event in under 10 seconds. Now imagine that Ussain Bolt suddenly decided to have gender reassignment surgery. His physiology would still be male. (Muscle mass and proportions, centre of gravity, et al) So he, or in that case I guess she, would have a massive advantage over born women.

Offline ofDelusions

Re: Fallon Fox: Transgendered Athletes in Sports
« Reply #35 on: April 28, 2013, 04:07:23 AM »
I think the main problem would be that there are a number of sports where transgendered women would have a serious advantage over those women who were born such. Take for example the 100 meter dash. The woman's WR is 10.49. Every single man competing on the top level runs that same event in under 10 seconds. Now imagine that Ussain Bolt suddenly decided to have gender reassignment surgery. His physiology would still be male. (Muscle mass and proportions, centre of gravity, et al) So he, or in that case I guess she, would have a massive advantage over born women.

Except that, as mentioned in this thread few times, Hormones would reduce that Muscle mass to female levels. Surgery isn't the only part of the transitioning nor the most important to most either.

Offline Tamhansen

Re: Fallon Fox: Transgendered Athletes in Sports
« Reply #36 on: April 28, 2013, 04:27:11 AM »
Except that, as mentioned in this thread few times, Hormones would reduce that Muscle mass to female levels. Surgery isn't the only part of the transitioning nor the most important to most either.

Actually, that's not really true. Yes the hormones would have an effect, but his body would not suddenly stop being trimmed the way it is. Maybe after years of being a woman, but for the first few years, his muscle mass would remain proportioned as any other well trained male athlete.

Offline Ephiral

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Re: Fallon Fox: Transgendered Athletes in Sports
« Reply #37 on: April 28, 2013, 02:55:55 PM »
Actually, that's not really true. Yes the hormones would have an effect, but his body would not suddenly stop being trimmed the way it is. Maybe after years of being a woman, but for the first few years, his muscle mass would remain proportioned as any other well trained male athlete.
And you have data to refute that presented upthread, I presume?

Offline Oniya

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Re: Fallon Fox: Transgendered Athletes in Sports
« Reply #38 on: April 28, 2013, 04:19:53 PM »
Actually, that's not really true. Yes the hormones would have an effect, but his body would not suddenly stop being trimmed the way it is. Maybe after years of being a woman, but for the first few years, his muscle mass would remain proportioned as any other well trained male athlete.

Keep in mind that the hormone therapy itself takes several years before the person can realistically present as a woman.

Offline Funguy81

Re: Fallon Fox: Transgendered Athletes in Sports
« Reply #39 on: April 29, 2013, 09:54:08 PM »
Considering the subject at this time. Here is someone that I think you all should get to know.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parinya_Charoenphol

I first heard about Parinya Charoenphol a couple of years ago when the history channel did a special about the sport of muiy thai. (hoping i spelled it right.) Parinya is a thai post-op male to female transgender. In order to gather the money to get the operation, she started to step into the kickboxing tournaments in thailand. At the time even as a male, she had a very feminine look and even came into the ring with feminine walk, prance about, and even kissing her opponent in the cheek....just before completely demolishing almost every "male" opponent to become one of Thailand's best fighters and champion.

she's retired officially from the sport now and got her operation done. she still does exhibition fights at times against different male or female athletes, and now opened up her own school.

Just thought I drop this little nickel of information.

Offline consortium11Topic starter

Re: Fallon Fox: Transgendered Athletes in Sports
« Reply #40 on: April 29, 2013, 10:10:33 PM »
Considering the subject at this time. Here is someone that I think you all should get to know.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parinya_Charoenphol

With all due respect to Parinya, she was never one of Thailand's best or a true champion Nak Muay; her Muay Thai career was basically a novelty act and a tourist attraction (she had around 20 bouts; a top level Nak Muay will likely have had 300 or so). Good for her in truth; it enabled her to reap financial benefits she otherwise wouldn't.

It should be noted though that she competed against men while taking part in non-exhibition bouts which puts her in a somewhat different category to Fox, who is competing against women.

In boxing I'm aware of Mercedes Newbiggin (the former Rob Newbiggin) but I'm unaware of her actually boxing after her operation and transition.

Offline Sethala

Re: Fallon Fox: Transgendered Athletes in Sports
« Reply #41 on: April 30, 2013, 12:13:55 AM »
Honestly, I think we need to have more data to say anything for sure.  Specifically, I would like more info on post-op athletes and what kind of capabilities they have currently compared to both other men and women, and to their performance pre-op.

But, I can go on with hypothetical thoughts for now.  If the data shows that a MtF post-op athlete performs at a general female level (e.g. can't run as fast, isn't as strong, etc), and is on the same level as most female athletes, then I'm fine with them being part of a women's division for their sport of choice.  However, if they still perform at levels similar to male athletes, even if it's lower than their previous ability, then I wouldn't agree with them joining a women's division.  The same goes for a FtM athlete, of course.

Online Neysha

Re: Fallon Fox: Transgendered Athletes in Sports
« Reply #42 on: May 03, 2013, 01:37:04 PM »
Considering the subject at this time. Here is someone that I think you all should get to know.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parinya_Charoenphol

I first heard about Parinya Charoenphol a couple of years ago when the history channel did a special about the sport of muiy thai. (hoping i spelled it right.) Parinya is a thai post-op male to female transgender. In order to gather the money to get the operation, she started to step into the kickboxing tournaments in thailand. At the time even as a male, she had a very feminine look and even came into the ring with feminine walk, prance about, and even kissing her opponent in the cheek....just before completely demolishing almost every "male" opponent to become one of Thailand's best fighters and champion.

she's retired officially from the sport now and got her operation done. she still does exhibition fights at times against different male or female athletes, and now opened up her own school.

Just thought I drop this little nickel of information.

Her performance seems to run contrary to the statements and allegedly definitive research presented earlier which seemed to unequivocally imply that somehow transgendered post-op male to females are not only weaker then their original male selves, but even at a disadvantage to many naturally born female competitors considering Parinya's performance against male opponents.

I'm not sure why they are allowing Fallon Fox to compete against women when it seems apparent that there is still a lot of investigation and research that needs to be done. Ideally, she should probably only compete against other transgendered male to female opponents IMHO until sports supervisory and oversight groups and leagues do a lot more research on the issue at hand.
« Last Edit: May 22, 2013, 01:10:25 PM by Neysha »

Offline Silk

Re: Fallon Fox: Transgendered Athletes in Sports
« Reply #43 on: May 22, 2013, 09:05:35 AM »
My own personal opinion, is that gender shouldn't play into it at all in sports. It should just be: Here are the criteria, if you can meet them, you make the team regardless of what your sex is. I've never really understood why women should be forced to compete on what are, typically, viewed as second-class teams just because they're girls. If the girls can keep up with the boys, let them play with the boys. And vice-versa, regardless of what genitalia they were born with.

If there is a specfic cause for the required criteria I wouldn't have issue with it. Example being a specific criteria for being a fireman (Although I dislike the fact that the criteria got lowered for women, PC shouldnt come into play when it's there to preserve lives)

Offline Avis habilis

Re: Fallon Fox: Transgendered Athletes in Sports
« Reply #44 on: May 22, 2013, 12:45:19 PM »
Back on the subject of Fox, here's a background piece about her that appeared on Yahoo! News: http://sports.yahoo.com/news/mma--fallon-fox--transgender-mma-fighter-controversy-043035215.html

Offline ofDelusions

Re: Fallon Fox: Transgendered Athletes in Sports
« Reply #45 on: May 22, 2013, 05:13:30 PM »
If there is a specfic cause for the required criteria I wouldn't have issue with it. Example being a specific criteria for being a fireman (Although I dislike the fact that the criteria got lowered for women, PC shouldnt come into play when it's there to preserve lives)

IIRC didn't that firefighter criteria get dropped because it was only there to keep women out and not because it tested something that was at all likely to come up in the job?

Offline Silk

Re: Fallon Fox: Transgendered Athletes in Sports
« Reply #46 on: May 23, 2013, 06:56:05 AM »
IIRC didn't that firefighter criteria get dropped because it was only there to keep women out and not because it tested something that was at all likely to come up in the job?
the criteria that was dropped was the amount of weight the person would be able to carry to my knowledge

Offline Oniya

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Re: Fallon Fox: Transgendered Athletes in Sports
« Reply #47 on: May 23, 2013, 07:09:29 AM »
Considering some of the bariatric patients that my sister (paramedic) has had to get into ambulances (she's built like me, looks like a strong wind and a big umbrella would be enough for sustained flight), the amount of weight should be a criteria - but it shouldn't matter whether it's a man or a woman doing the lifting.

Offline Silk

Re: Fallon Fox: Transgendered Athletes in Sports
« Reply #48 on: May 23, 2013, 09:30:25 AM »
To my knowledge weight was the main criteria if met it didn't matter if you was male or female as long as you could do it

Offline ofDelusions

Re: Fallon Fox: Transgendered Athletes in Sports
« Reply #49 on: May 23, 2013, 03:15:32 PM »
the criteria that was dropped was the amount of weight the person would be able to carry to my knowledge

IIRC it was weight someone was able to carry over ones head. Which isn't likely to come up because the amount was so high you'd never carry it over your head in real situations anyway.