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Author Topic: Feminism and Adria Richards's PyCon experience  (Read 4392 times)

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Offline DTW

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Re: Feminism and Adria Richards's PyCon experience
« Reply #125 on: April 06, 2013, 06:22:34 PM »
...

Relevant:

Inappropriate as judged by who? It amazes me that we have people who believe people have rights no matter their sexual orientation , race , creed , color , nationality  or age but those same people don't believe in the freedom speech.

It wasn't just homophobia that sent Oscar Wilde to prison. It was an unfair  group of  elitist  who thought their way was the only way.


I support gay rights because I believe freedom. People should be free. Period. I don't care if it offends you because you're a christian and your god tells you two men shouldn't get married or your a woman and someone made a joke. Freedom  is what man deserves above all and this.


You can't Fascism with Fascism . That's illogical. This isn't like  MLK Jr fighting racism by giving speeches and staging sit ins. This is  like MLK Jr fighting racism by  ostracizing racists. 

Mandela said it best when he said "People must learn to hate, and if they can learn to hate, they can be taught to love, for love comes more naturally to the human heart than its opposite.Ē

Segregation didn't end because MLK Jr called out the Klan. It ended because people figured out racism was wrong. At the end of the day , their are good people in this world that are misguided and if you give them enough time they'll learn  and change.

I'm done.

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Offline Trieste

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Re: Feminism and Adria Richards's PyCon experience
« Reply #126 on: April 06, 2013, 06:24:08 PM »
I absolutely agree. It was good to see the backlash on that one and I hope it discourages such things from coming up again.

However I think that there could be a case made for that being in the public domain due to his position. I personally don't feel that politicians should benefit from the same level of privacy as the average citizen due to the public nature of their profession.

While I understand that (and agree), I also feel that it's a good example of what Sethala asked for. A relatively public individual says something at a private, closed event (such as Mitt Romney did) seems roughly equivalent, to me, to a relatively unknown individual making a comment at a fairly public venue. It had nothing to do with sexist discrimination but clearly indicates discrimination of another kind, and it was a private comment that was brought to the public via the Internet (through a video, no less) that produced a socially acceptable backlash of "You should be ashamed for this".

So it seemed quite relevant.

Offline SethalaTopic starter

Re: Feminism and Adria Richards's PyCon experience
« Reply #127 on: April 06, 2013, 06:25:37 PM »
To me? No. It doesn't matter if it's directed at someone in particular, or if it's just a general comment. See, the problem isn't what people say, it's the general attitude behind it. Traditionally male industries, like computers and video games and RPGs, are rampant with sexism and misogynistic behaviour, even to the point where it's implicit that certain behaviours are acceptable from men whereas they are not from women (including jokes about sex); inappropriate comments shouldn't need to be directed at anyone in particular to be called out as inappropriate. This isn't even touching the fact that it was a professional gathering, and commenting about sex in any respect is opening yourself to harrassment accusations.

As for the prevalent behaviour, let me give you a personal example: I'm a pretty avid gamer, both console and PC. Back before Christmas, I went to the electronics section of Wal-Mart to buy a currency card for the PlayStation store. The card wouldn't swipe properly to ring up, and the clerk (who was very apologetic but had a hard time looking me in the eyes) had to call in a manager to fix it. The CSM didn't look at me once, didn't apologize, didn't even address me at all. Instead, he addressed my seven-year-old son, who he assumed the card was for.

The attitude is even reinforced in areas you'd never expect. I love Big Bang Theory, but there was one episode in particular that really bothered me. The guys were on their way to a Star Trek convention, and the girls decided to give comic books a try. Now, the parts of nerdity I really enjoy (comics, video games, fantasy shows, etc) are typically male-dominated in the show, to the point where the guys, overhearing a fairly heated discussion the girls are having about the Hulk and Thor's Hammer, wonder if it's a new shade of nail polish they're discussing. Where the comic book shop has basement dwellers staring awkwardly at the girls in the shop. You laugh, because you think it's funny. Hell, I did too. But at the same time, it's enraging, because it's subtly reinforcing the idea that girls are out of place in a world of nerds and geeks, because they're pretty or they have boyfriends or they don't have some mental disorder -- the sole girl they showed at the comic book shop had social anxiety disorder, and she just wandered in to "get out of her comfort zone".

The attitude is everywhere. Everywhere. And people think it's normal. And that's wrong on so many levels, I can't even begin to count them.

To make a long story short, yes. Inappropriate comments are inappropriate, no matter who they appear to be directed at.

Ok, thank you.  One last question for you, then: do you think that it was important she actually name the people doing it, or would it have been enough if she hadn't posted their picture and just said that they had "sponsor" badges (meaning they were there on actual business)?  Was their identity actually important to the story, considering they had also been thrown out of the convention?  (Sidenote: She didn't actually name them, but I get the feeling that if she actually knew their names, she would have.)

As for the story... wow.  Some people are just plain morons, honestly.  (As an aside, do you think the salesperson was trying to be rude by not looking you in the eye, or just shy?)

Offline gaggedLouise

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Re: Feminism and Adria Richards's PyCon experience
« Reply #128 on: April 06, 2013, 06:28:04 PM »
 
Mitt Romney's 47% comment.

The folks who called Obama out over his "people who cling to their Bibles and their guns" comments probably felt they were rightfullly shaming him, too. And defending everybody's freedom. (I admit it wasn't a joke, but it was a pithy way by Obama to spell out some aspects of the voter demographic, and to make his team aware of what lay ahead).

Speaking of Obama, how do you people feel about his comment over that Cali attorney? Was he being sexist and contributing to a condescending climate by making a cute compliment to a top-ranking woman, over her looks, in a field where most people at the top still are men? Is that kind of thing illegal or immoral, or just badly inappropriate?

And is it seriously on the table that he would not respect her professional skills as a legal professional? Does he have to *state* that he holds her knowledge of the law in high esteem?
« Last Edit: April 06, 2013, 06:32:19 PM by gaggedLouise »

Offline Caehlim

Re: Feminism and Adria Richards's PyCon experience
« Reply #129 on: April 06, 2013, 06:31:33 PM »
While I understand that (and agree), I also feel that it's a good example of what Sethala asked for. A relatively public individual says something at a private, closed event (such as Mitt Romney did) seems roughly equivalent, to me, to a relatively unknown individual making a comment at a fairly public venue. It had nothing to do with sexist discrimination but clearly indicates discrimination of another kind, and it was a private comment that was brought to the public via the Internet (through a video, no less) that produced a socially acceptable backlash of "You should be ashamed for this".

So it seemed quite relevant.

Yes you're absolutely right... between me finishing my post and you writing this one I'd realized this myself and edited my post to acknowledge it. I think you must have missed my edit.

Offline Trieste

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Re: Feminism and Adria Richards's PyCon experience
« Reply #130 on: April 06, 2013, 06:34:48 PM »

The folks who called Obama out over his "people who cling to their Bibles and their guns" comments probably felt they were rightfullly shaming him, too. And defending everybody's freedom.

Speaking of Obama, how do you people feel about his comment over that Cali attorney? Was he being sexist and contributing to a condescending climate by making a cute compliment to a top-ranking woman, over her looks, in a field where most people at the top still are men? Is that kind of thing illegal or immoral, or just badly inappropriate?

And is it seriously on the table that he would not respect her professional skills as a legal professional? Does he have to *state* that he holds her knowledge of the law in high esteem?

It'd be much easier to get commentary on something if you link to an article that actually contains the remarks in question, instead of just remarks about the remarks in question.

As far as I can tell, he was listing several attributes and the first three that he listed were brilliant, dedicated, and tough. Not sure why he felt the need to also comment on her appearance but it wasn't a comment only on her appearance. That makes a difference.

Further, she isn't a stranger but has apparently been a friend of his for years. So that also plays a role.

Yes you're absolutely right... between me finishing my post and you writing this one I'd realized this myself and edited my post to acknowledge it. I think you must have missed my edit.

No worries! I did see it, but I also didn't mind explaining further, either. I was kind of thrown off by the random unwanted injection of transphobia. >.>;

Offline SethalaTopic starter

Re: Feminism and Adria Richards's PyCon experience
« Reply #131 on: April 06, 2013, 06:36:40 PM »
While I understand that (and agree), I also feel that it's a good example of what Sethala asked for. A relatively public individual says something at a private, closed event (such as Mitt Romney did) seems roughly equivalent, to me, to a relatively unknown individual making a comment at a fairly public venue. It had nothing to do with sexist discrimination but clearly indicates discrimination of another kind, and it was a private comment that was brought to the public via the Internet (through a video, no less) that produced a socially acceptable backlash of "You should be ashamed for this".

So it seemed quite relevant.

I think I'm going to agree with Caehlim however, this is quite a bit different, partly because he's a politician, but also because the comment is actually related to his position.

Now, let's say that I'm hiring someone to do a specific job, say a doctor that needs to do a checkup.  I overhear him making some remarks that make it seem he's not going to do a very good job.  I should have every right to go to his employer and voice my concerns.

It just so happens that in Romney's case, the "employer" is "everyone that might vote for him"...

Offline Caehlim

Re: Feminism and Adria Richards's PyCon experience
« Reply #132 on: April 06, 2013, 06:38:45 PM »
Speaking of Obama, how do you people feel about his comment over that Cali attorney? Was he being sexist and contributing to a condescending climate by making a cute compliment to a top-ranking woman, over her looks, in a field where most people at the top still are men? Is that kind of thing illegal or immoral, or just badly inappropriate?

I do think it's inappropriate, but I think he's acknowledged that himself now with his apology.

However it is an extremely common figure of speech, in my experience, to refer to solitary female figures within a group of all males as the best looking. Aside from being potentially condescending it's also somewhat contributes to hetero normative assumptions that males can't possibly be considered good looking. As such I think he was just cutting corners on writing a speech by using a common phrase without considering it's potential implication. Now that it's been brought to his attention I think he understands the problems with it and I'm willing to buy his apology as sincere.

 

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Re: Feminism and Adria Richards's PyCon experience
« Reply #133 on: April 06, 2013, 06:40:58 PM »
This is a highly confrontational topic and it would behoove all of you to take a step back and cool down before posting again.

Or we can lock the thread for as long as Staff thinks necessary.

Offline Ephiral

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Re: Feminism and Adria Richards's PyCon experience
« Reply #134 on: April 06, 2013, 06:44:28 PM »
I get that idea, definitely. But what makes me qualified to decide whether what you said was inappropriate or not.

What if someone snaps a picture of a trans* person struggling with their gender identity examining the women's clothing in their local target store and uploads it onto the internet along with sufficient information to identify them?

Now in this case, I think we would both agree that this was wrong. However this hypothetical bigot I'm describing would probably believe that they were doing the moral thing and would justify it with statements like "They shouldn't do this in public if they don't want people to see it".

From our external vantage point Adria Richards and this hypothetical person clearly have different motives, but from their own internal opinion they both have the same motive. They both want to shame someone for doing something that they think is wrong.
That is wrong, yes. Because it endangers someone - I don't see lynch mobs gathering for people who tell sexist jokes. If trans* people weren't still at massive risk of violence, and if (like the Richards case) there were no identifying info beyond the picture itself, it would be acceptable collateral damage in a shame-as-social-reinforcement-tool paradigm - because then the appropriate response is to shame the picture-taker and make it clear that this shit is not acceptable behaviour.

I'm willing to bite the bullet and accept the less-than-perfect aspects of the most effective strategy for actually changing the culture.

Offline Caehlim

Re: Feminism and Adria Richards's PyCon experience
« Reply #135 on: April 06, 2013, 06:45:16 PM »
Inappropriate as judged by who? It amazes me that we have people who believe people have rights no matter their sexual orientation , race , creed , color , nationality  or age but those same people don't believe in the freedom speech.

I've heard this argument frequently and don't get it.

How is us, freely expressing that we don't like what you said in any way against freedom of speech?

You said your opinion, we said ours and we were all quite free to do so.

Offline gaggedLouise

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Re: Feminism and Adria Richards's PyCon experience
« Reply #136 on: April 06, 2013, 06:46:38 PM »
It'd be much easier to get commentary on something if you link to an article that actually contains the remarks in question, instead of just remarks about the remarks in question.

As far as I can tell, he was listing several attributes and the first three that he listed were brilliant, dedicated, and tough. Not sure why he felt the need to also comment on her appearance but it wasn't a comment only on her appearance. That makes a difference.

Further, she isn't a stranger but has apparently been a friend of his for years. So that also plays a role.


http://edition.cnn.com/2013/04/05/opinion/navarrette-obama-comment/index.html

Of course, most media outlets focused on the remarks about her looks, these words being the most fetching ones.

I figured they would be friends, too - he's also a legal scholar, and they are not far apart in age  - but that probably would matter less if somebody wanted to make an example of it. And to use what somebody said for public shaming, you don't actually have to be the person who was being talked to, you don't even need to have been present. One can go "I'm feeling offended and belittled by what he said to..." and imply that everybody else (or everybody of a given group, gender, race etc) should also be feeling offended and angry.

For the record, I think judging the validity of public shaming as a tactical move to gain the upper hand in a debate should not depend on whether you're on the same side as the person or media outlet using it. Just saying.
« Last Edit: April 06, 2013, 06:51:49 PM by gaggedLouise »

Offline Caehlim

Re: Feminism and Adria Richards's PyCon experience
« Reply #137 on: April 06, 2013, 06:52:11 PM »
I'm willing to bite the bullet and accept the less-than-perfect aspects of the most effective strategy for actually changing the culture.

Yeah, that's a fair answer. I think we both appreciate the risks and rewards inherent to these things. We're just judging them ever so slightly differently as to which takes precedence.

Offline Trieste

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Re: Feminism and Adria Richards's PyCon experience
« Reply #138 on: April 06, 2013, 06:55:43 PM »
I think I'm going to agree with Caehlim however, this is quite a bit different, partly because he's a politician, but also because the comment is actually related to his position.

Now, let's say that I'm hiring someone to do a specific job, say a doctor that needs to do a checkup.  I overhear him making some remarks that make it seem he's not going to do a very good job.  I should have every right to go to his employer and voice my concerns.

It just so happens that in Romney's case, the "employer" is "everyone that might vote for him"...

But "everyone that might vote for him" didn't overhear his remarks. His remarks were made in private and then specifically brought out into the open and given a "shame on you" commentary. No situation is going to be exactly the same, but the two situations are very much parallel.

For the record, I think judging the validity of public shaming as a tactical move to gain the upper hand in a debate should not depend on whether you're on the same side as the person or media outlet using it. Just saying.

I think that shame can be a very useful tool, although I personally dislike it and probably would not use it. However, the fact that I would not use it does not make it inherently an invalid tool - it just means that it's not a tool in my personal collection.

On the other hand, I have seen it used to great effect by other people, for specific furtherance of causes that I believe worthwhile. The context of shaming is extremely important, and cannot really be separated from its use. After all, I think it's wrong to shame a woman into trying to be less sexual. I have no problem with shaming someone - man or woman - into being less sexist, though.

Offline Rhapsody

Re: Feminism and Adria Richards's PyCon experience
« Reply #139 on: April 06, 2013, 06:56:44 PM »
Ok, thank you.  One last question for you, then: do you think that it was important she actually name the people doing it, or would it have been enough if she hadn't posted their picture and just said that they had "sponsor" badges (meaning they were there on actual business)?  Was their identity actually important to the story, considering they had also been thrown out of the convention?  (Sidenote: She didn't actually name them, but I get the feeling that if she actually knew their names, she would have.)

I honestly think that should be taken on a case-by-case basis. In this instance, with a crowd that size, the image was probably necessary to quickly identify the problematic guests to event staff. Perhaps not strictly necessary, but certainly helpful.

Quote
As for the story... wow.  Some people are just plain morons, honestly.  (As an aside, do you think the salesperson was trying to be rude by not looking you in the eye, or just shy?)

If it happened once, I'd say shy. Since it happens quite a lot when I shop for games or comics, I'd say ... not rude, but dismissive. It's the air of "oh, chick shopping. Not important. I think I'll stare at her tits." Sometimes it's slightly hostile, like I'm intruding into sacred space I shouldn't even know about. Those instances, thankfully, tend to be rare.

Some people are no doubt shy, but they tend to get lost in the shuffle of irritation. And some places I shop actually employ women, but most of their staff are males.

If you want another example, look at TIME's list of valuable Twitter feeds, which is a great cross-section of the problem. The fields where women dominate on TIME's list? Food, fashion, culture and celebrities.

Or take the example of the woman who runs the "I fucking love science" page, Elise Andrew. Sometimes, these people publicly shame themselves.

Offline Caehlim

Re: Feminism and Adria Richards's PyCon experience
« Reply #140 on: April 06, 2013, 07:02:30 PM »
Or take the example of the woman who runs the "I fucking love science" page, Elise Andrew. Sometimes, these people publicly shame themselves.

Hehe, her replies to the statements were hilarious. I will point out though, that she did redact their usernames and personally I don't feel that her responses were in any way diminished by this.

Offline Rhapsody

Re: Feminism and Adria Richards's PyCon experience
« Reply #141 on: April 06, 2013, 07:06:41 PM »
Hehe, her replies to the statements were hilarious. I will point out though, that she did redact their usernames and personally I don't feel that her responses were in any way diminished by this.

That's not her webpage. That's the webpage of someone else who picked up on the story. She edited the user names per libel laws (I think that's the right one); you can still see the user names on the Facebook page, which is publicly accessible.

Offline SethalaTopic starter

Re: Feminism and Adria Richards's PyCon experience
« Reply #142 on: April 06, 2013, 07:18:16 PM »
I honestly think that should be taken on a case-by-case basis. In this instance, with a crowd that size, the image was probably necessary to quickly identify the problematic guests to event staff. Perhaps not strictly necessary, but certainly helpful.

Oh certainly, and I think she did the right thing by taking the photograph to show staff.  However, the staff has a vested interest in fixing the problem, and the means to do so through a fair and impartial system.  The internet at large, has neither, which makes identification of them unnecessary from my point of view.

Offline gaggedLouise

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Re: Feminism and Adria Richards's PyCon experience
« Reply #143 on: April 06, 2013, 07:28:40 PM »
Oh certainly, and I think she did the right thing by taking the photograph to show staff.  However, the staff has a vested interest in fixing the problem, and the means to do so through a fair and impartial system.  The internet at large, has neither, which makes identification of them unnecessary from my point of view.

Plus, identifying persons and spreading their ID's around the internet enveloped in a shame commentary carries the risk of attracting fanatics, crackpots and self-appointed vigilantists, online or in the real world - and inciting acts of vengeance or personal smearing that have absolutely no basis in what the listed persons actually said or did. And to justify themselves, some of these - the original whistleblowers or people who have picked up on the issue - might tend to crank up the volume and become ever more simplistic to boost their good cause, or their egos.

Offline BlackestKnight

Re: Feminism and Adria Richards's PyCon experience
« Reply #144 on: April 07, 2013, 12:29:11 AM »
I appreciate where this is coming from, but I think this is really dangerous thinking.

After all why should I accept someone's faults when those faults make me uncomfortable and they've shown an unwillingness to not do it?

Take us back a couple of decades to a time when women were, even in a professional environment, regular called, even in a supposedly professional environment "babe", "love", "darling" etc or worse "hot lips"... "big tits". When they were routinely groped and what would now be considered sexual abuse? When they were very much expected to sit there, look pretty, laugh at the jokes about them and not be taken seriously.  Should women in such circumstances have simply accepted people for their faults and let it go on?

Or when people were happy to use derogatory racial terms to describe people. Should people have learnt to accept people for their faults?

Surely life is also too short to put up with sexual jokes that make you feel uncomfortable and in reality have no place in a professional environment?

Dog, you reaching with that one. Obviously workplace harassment is wrong. I outlined that in my post as a legitimate grievance, We're talking about abstract jokes that don't refer to anyone in particular. Tell me how "forking a repo with a big dongle" is sexually demeaning to women? You can't because the shit is so abstract.

 Still, I don't think the punishment is fitting. You would be better served looking for actual sexual improprieties, rather than punishing people for cracking corny jokes. That's like pulling people over for jay walking when you get serial killers on the loose. Your arguing as if they two are somehow co-related like if only we cracked down on more jay walkers, there would be fewer serial killers. It's a slippery slope. No, you would just end up with a bunch non violent offenders behind bars.

Policing abstract innuendo's is not high on my priority. Did you know that the snozzberies referenced In Willy Wonka is a fictional euphemism for a mans reproductive organs? Now I've ruined Charlie and the Chocolate factory. Snozzberies and Dongle's sound like they belong in the same universe.

We're not robots, no one is 100% about their job that they don't engage in off topic convo's. We're all adults here, many of us have heard worse. As long as they aren't negatively polluting the work environment, I'll cut some slack. Ironically, Miss Richard's did more to harm the workplace ecology than either of those donglegate jokers did. 

You act like people got to act like perfect paragons just because they put on a suit and tie and walk into an office setting, the truth of the matter is that people do all kinds of unprofessional shit on the job. I've done it, everyone's done or said some things that weren't the most appropriate. I remember at my old job I remarked on the looks of one of the waitresses at my job, I reflexively said that she looked "good" and while I meant it as a compliment and not as a pick-up line,  it could have been misconstrued as such and I would have been out on my ass. If the President of the united states can't keep his foot out of his mouth at the nation's highest office, what makes you think most people can at whatever job they're work?

No matter where your work, people eventually drop their guard. I'm not saying we should change Tuesdays to make a casual rape joke day,  but it's rather one sided and sophistic to make these donglegate guys out to be the poster boys for big bad workplace patriarchal bullies whilst propping up Miss Richard's as some sort of Rosa Parks of workplace sexual suffrage. It's far more complex than that.

« Last Edit: April 07, 2013, 12:49:07 AM by BlackestKnight »

Offline Ephiral

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Re: Feminism and Adria Richards's PyCon experience
« Reply #145 on: April 07, 2013, 12:34:59 AM »
I find your analogy to crime interesting, BlackestKnight. Because... know what? Police routinely issue tickets for jaywalking and track serial killers.

Unless you have a source that nobody else in this thread has seen, you don't know how abstract the joke was, because you don't have a transcript. Not that that's relevant, because it was against both the rules and the con's intentions. Really, why does it deserve defense once that's been established?

Offline SethalaTopic starter

Re: Feminism and Adria Richards's PyCon experience
« Reply #146 on: April 07, 2013, 12:55:04 AM »
Yeah, but they don't give people a 5-year sentence for jaywalking.  Unless the guy's like, a serial jaywalker or something, and has a few hundred counts on his record.

There's a thing called "disproportionate retribution".  Getting told to leave a con because you can't remain professional?  Yeah, that's fine.  I perfectly support PyCon's decision to kick people out that are being a nuisance.  I don't support anyone's decision to publicly lambast someone just because they slipped up and said something they shouldn't.

Another issue I have with the whole thing though: what would have happened if it were two women making a joke about things, and it was a guy that posted their picture and the name of their company on a blog that went viral?  Would you still be in support of him making that decision, to out those women and publicly shame them?  Or would it be oppressing women that want to get into the tech business?

Offline Ephiral

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Re: Feminism and Adria Richards's PyCon experience
« Reply #147 on: April 07, 2013, 01:10:30 AM »
Yeah, but they don't give people a 5-year sentence for jaywalking.  Unless the guy's like, a serial jaywalker or something, and has a few hundred counts on his record.
And Richards didn't punish this guy at all. She simply called out unacceptable behaviour.

There's a thing called "disproportionate retribution".  Getting told to leave a con because you can't remain professional?  Yeah, that's fine.  I perfectly support PyCon's decision to kick people out that are being a nuisance.  I don't support anyone's decision to publicly lambast someone just because they slipped up and said something they shouldn't.
This wasn't "slipped up". He didn't choose the wrong word. This was a deliberate decision to do something that happened to violate policy and encourage a hostile environment.

Another issue I have with the whole thing though: what would have happened if it were two women making a joke about things, and it was a guy that posted their picture and the name of their company on a blog that went viral?  Would you still be in support of him making that decision, to out those women and publicly shame them?  Or would it be oppressing women that want to get into the tech business?
In an ideal world where sexism wasn't a thing? Yeah, that'd be fine. Except it is. Look at the number of rape and death threats Richards has gotten. Or any other woman who dares point out that yes, sexism still happens. There is a serious distinction to be made, and pretending there isn't is just flat-out deceptive.

Offline BlackestKnight

Re: Feminism and Adria Richards's PyCon experience
« Reply #148 on: April 07, 2013, 01:29:04 AM »
I find your analogy to crime interesting, BlackestKnight. Because... know what? Police routinely issue tickets for jaywalking and track serial killers.

Unless you have a source that nobody else in this thread has seen, you don't know how abstract the joke was, because you don't have a transcript. Not that that's relevant, because it was against both the rules and the con's intentions. Really, why does it deserve defense once that's been established?

If we're going to go by the police example. I understand in many police circles, it's an unspoken rule to target young men of an "urban element" for stop and frisk searches , while I understand it's not relevant to the topic, I wanted to make a point about rules and their overarching purpose in an organization. Let's say hypothetically that the rules of the convention endorsed the mistreatment of women and minorities and it was somehow constitutional, what do you do now? Follow the rules because they're the rules? Rules are not always benign. Personally, I don't subscribe to rules I don't believe in.  Rules are constantly under review as well. Rules are meant to be challenged, I believe. I know a dongle joke isn't as noble as civil rights but still, it's wrong. Even if you think it's appropriate that the guy lost his job over a joke given the rules of the convention, she shouldn't have been fired for the joke she made on twitter days prior to even being present at the event.
« Last Edit: April 07, 2013, 01:50:55 AM by BlackestKnight »

Offline SethalaTopic starter

Re: Feminism and Adria Richards's PyCon experience
« Reply #149 on: April 07, 2013, 01:49:01 AM »
Even if you think it's appropriate that the guy lost his job over a joke given the rules of the convention, she shouldn't have been fired for the joke she made on twitter prior to all that.

Wait, what?