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Author Topic: mark of the beast?  (Read 4002 times)

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Offline Healergirl

Re: mark of the beast?
« Reply #100 on: May 14, 2013, 11:35:12 AM »
Well, if we ar going to bring corruptions of original meaning into play, 666, is the hebrew numerology value for Nero, I believe.  then you get into the whol "The Second coming will occur in thelifetime of thse who remember the end of the First coming thing."

Which implies that this earth has been abandoned to the devil - and several philosopher's have made the case for that.

Offline chaoslord29

Re: mark of the beast?
« Reply #101 on: May 14, 2013, 11:39:36 AM »
Well, if we ar going to bring corruptions of original meaning into play, 666, is the hebrew numerology value for Nero, I believe.  then you get into the whol "The Second coming will occur in thelifetime of thse who remember the end of the First coming thing."

Which implies that this earth has been abandoned to the devil - and several philosopher's have made the case for that.

I'm assuming you mean Theologians or Biblical Historians there, as speculation on the fulfillment of scripture isn't really the purview of philosophy (Not to say there aren't plenty of Theologians who weren't also Philosophers).

In regards to the actual prediction of the 2nd Coming, I think as long as you interpret the Bible anything less than literally you don't have to assume the world has been abandoned to the Devil haha. Not to mention that the Devil himself is more of a creation of the medieval Church and Milton than anything based in scripture.

Offline Healergirl

Re: mark of the beast?
« Reply #102 on: May 14, 2013, 12:02:57 PM »
If Milton had realized how influential his superb characterization of the Devil in Paradise Lost was going to be, I wonder if he would have written Him Below differently?  He created one of the great characters of literature in that work, and it is amazing how many people treat Paradise Lost as canon, literal canon.

Offline chaoslord29

Re: mark of the beast?
« Reply #103 on: May 14, 2013, 12:11:33 PM »
If Milton had realized how influential his superb characterization of the Devil in Paradise Lost was going to be, I wonder if he would have written Him Below differently?  He created one of the great characters of literature in that work, and it is amazing how many people treat Paradise Lost as canon, literal canon.

Isn't it though? I mean, Milton's depiction is something of a synthesis of the evolution of the devil over the centuries, but the point is that it's the most cohesive representation of the Christian Devil, and it's totally incongruous with the depiction of the Devil in the Bible. Yet when people today think of Satan, Lucifer, Mephistopheles, Beelzebub, etc. they almost invariably picture Milton's fallen angel and leader of the rag tag rebel angels against God's Kingdom XD

Offline Healergirl

Re: mark of the beast?
« Reply #104 on: May 14, 2013, 12:28:20 PM »
Isn't it though? I mean, Milton's depiction is something of a synthesis of the evolution of the devil over the centuries, but the point is that it's the most cohesive representation of the Christian Devil, and it's totally incongruous with the depiction of the Devil in the Bible. Yet when people today think of Satan, Lucifer, Mephistopheles, Beelzebub, etc. they almost invariably picture Milton's fallen angel and leader of the rag tag rebel angels against God's Kingdom XD

Fundamentalists of the  Dispensationalist and  Dominionist stripes  do not want to hear that.  It throws a lot of the book of  Revelation's baby out with the bath water.

Offline chaoslord29

Re: mark of the beast?
« Reply #105 on: May 14, 2013, 12:46:36 PM »
Fundamentalists of the  Dispensationalist and  Dominionist stripes  do not want to hear that.  It throws a lot of the book of  Revelation's baby out with the bath water.

Seems to me though there's a simple enough solution if only they were willing to double down on their own particular reinterpretation of the Bible: Make Milton Canon. Declare Milton the subject of Divine Inspiration, elevate him as a prophet and Paradise Lost becomes Scripture.

Offline Healergirl

Re: mark of the beast?
« Reply #106 on: May 14, 2013, 12:58:27 PM »
Oh, that would set the cat among the pigeons.  Giving a Church of England author Divine sanction...  Oh I'd love to listen in to the debates over that by the Fundies!

Offline chaoslord29

Re: mark of the beast?
« Reply #107 on: May 14, 2013, 01:04:38 PM »
Oh, that would set the cat among the pigeons.  Giving a Church of England author Divine sanction...  Oh I'd love to listen in to the debates over that by the Fundies!

Not that the fundy leadership has anything the Anglicans or Catholics would consider Divine Sanction themselves; or even much comparable by way of leadership. Seriously? Who speaks for the fundamentalists? Part of their whole problem is that even the most Biblically illiterate amongst them is a mouthpiece for the movement.

Offline Healergirl

Re: mark of the beast?
« Reply #108 on: May 14, 2013, 01:06:45 PM »
The fundamentalist movement as a whole is very disorganized.  Pretty much the nature of the thing.

Offline Secretwriter

Re: mark of the beast?
« Reply #109 on: May 14, 2013, 01:36:57 PM »
QFT, and because it provides a little context for what I really wanted to add.

Secretwriter:  Not to worry - the true Christians make themselves known by their Christian actions as well.  Even a heathen like me can sort the wheat from that chaff.

When I was Pagan, I said the same thing. I still say the same thing. You can always tell when someone believes what they say or when they're spouting garbage. I get really irritated at Christians who read the bible and want to use every scripture against someone to discern how one should act or believe or who they should love instead of doing what they're supposed to and loving everyone and trying to follow the example of Jesus, who turned no one away and condemned no one. Not sure that sentence was all that grammatically sound, but heh lol I'm rather sleepies.

Healergirl - there are people who say that Revelations was about the fall of Rome, not a pending apocalypse. 


Any religion is disorganized, any run by humans. :P

Chaoslord - I agree. The Devil became more prominent when the Church started seeing people filling up the pews. The more people came the more Devil they got. It's like... modern day Horror movies. People flock to those because they give a thrill. It's just human nature to need something to fear.

However... to be honest, having been on more than one side of religious belief, if I had to chose between believing in a God that I wasn't sure was there, and with that having hope that things will get better and there's something other than me in control of my destiny -or- being with no belief, no hope, and no faith to look forward to, I'd still rather have hope and faith.

I'm not saying that I don't think that God exists, but if God didn't exist, then I'd rather live a life and a lie pretending that God did than sit on the couch with no hope at all and nothing to look forward to. I've seen far too many miracles in my time to think that there's nothing. ^.^

Offline Healergirl

Re: mark of the beast?
« Reply #110 on: May 14, 2013, 01:42:45 PM »
Secretwriter,

I agree with you about Revelations, very much so.

Offline Secretwriter

Re: mark of the beast?
« Reply #111 on: May 14, 2013, 02:04:01 PM »
Well, personally, I'm kind of mixed... I think that part of it was about Rome, but some if it is about things yet to come. There's only one way to find out if I'm right lol and unfortunately that's to wait and see. ^.^

When I was in high school, I was having a discussion with an Athiest. He told me that if I was wrong, that there was no God, then I've lost nothing. If he's wrong, and there is God, then he's screwed. lol. I always kept that thought in mind over the years. The... many... years xD

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Re: mark of the beast?
« Reply #112 on: May 14, 2013, 02:09:31 PM »
Well, personally, I'm kind of mixed... I think that part of it was about Rome, but some if it is about things yet to come. There's only one way to find out if I'm right lol and unfortunately that's to wait and see. ^.^

When I was in high school, I was having a discussion with an Athiest. He told me that if I was wrong, that there was no God, then I've lost nothing. If he's wrong, and there is God, then he's screwed. lol. I always kept that thought in mind over the years. The... many... years xD

That's the old Pascal's Wager argument.  I'm a little surprised that an Atheist would bring it up, as it's usually used as a debate point in favor of belief.

Offline Secretwriter

Re: mark of the beast?
« Reply #113 on: May 14, 2013, 02:15:13 PM »
The guy was and still is pretty open minded.

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Re: mark of the beast?
« Reply #114 on: May 14, 2013, 02:20:00 PM »
Openmindedness is regrettably rare.  Props to him!

Offline yobo

Re: mark of the beast?
« Reply #115 on: May 14, 2013, 02:29:34 PM »
When I was in high school, I was having a discussion with an Athiest. He told me that if I was wrong, that there was no God, then I've lost nothing. If he's wrong, and there is God, then he's screwed. lol. I always kept that thought in mind over the years. The... many... years xD

If one consider the possibility of picking the wrong deity things gets a bit more complicated, considering all the religions in the world. ;)

Offline Healergirl

Re: mark of the beast?
« Reply #116 on: May 14, 2013, 03:05:30 PM »
well, yes, but other than Yahweh, they don't seem to care who you worship.

Online TheGlyphstone

Re: mark of the beast?
« Reply #117 on: May 17, 2013, 10:53:56 AM »
well, yes, but other than Yahweh, they don't seem to care who you worship.

I haven't made an in-depth study of Islam, but I think Allah also has a 'nonbelievers go to Hell' clause in the Koran....but that just reminds me of the old science joke:

Quote
A thermodynamics professor had written a take home exam for his graduate students. It had one question: "Is Hell exothermic (gives off heat) or endothermic (absorbs heat)? Support your answer with a proof." Most of the students wrote proofs of their beliefs using Boyle's Law (gas cools off when it expands and heats up when it is compressed) or some variant. One student, however, wrote the following:

    First, we need to know how the mass of Hell is changing in time. So, we need to know the rate that souls are moving into Hell and the rate they are leaving. I think that we can safely assume that once a soul gets to Hell, it will not leave. Therefore, no souls are leaving. As for how many souls are entering Hell, let's look at the different religions that exist in the world today. Some of these religions state that if you are not a member of their religion, you will go to Hell. Since there are more than one of these religions and since people do not belong to more than one religion, we can project that all people and all souls go to Hell. With birth and death rates as they are, we can expect the number of souls in Hell to increase exponentially.

    Now, we look at the rate of change of the volume in Hell because Boyle's Law states that in order for the temperature and pressure in Hell to stay the same, the volume of Hell has to expand as souls are added. This gives two possibilities.

        If Hell is expanding at a slower rate than the rate at which souls enter Hell, then the temperature and pressure in Hell will increase until all Hell breaks loose.

        Of course, if Hell is expanding at a rate faster than the increase of souls in Hell, then the temperature and pressure will drop until Hell freezes over.

    So which is it? If we accept the postulate given to me by Ms. Therese Banyan during my Freshman year, that "it will be a cold night in Hell before I sleep with you," and take into account the fact that I still have not succeeded in having sexual relations with her, then #2 cannot be true, and so . . .

    Hell is exothermic.

The student got the only A.

Offline RubySlippers

Re: mark of the beast?
« Reply #118 on: May 17, 2013, 11:02:37 AM »
If one consider the possibility of picking the wrong deity things gets a bit more complicated, considering all the religions in the world. ;)

My counter to this is if a deity or deities made humans they would know at some point we would have unbelievers so why would an Atheist have an issue if I meet this reality I will admit I was wrong, since it would be proven.

Offline Healergirl

Re: mark of the beast?
« Reply #119 on: May 17, 2013, 11:04:22 AM »
TGS,

Supposedly, Allah and yahweh and the christian Jehovah are all the same God.

And thank you for reminding me of that story!

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Re: mark of the beast?
« Reply #120 on: May 17, 2013, 12:18:07 PM »
*nods to HealerGirl*

The major difference in the 'Divine hierarchy' between the Abrahamic religions (Judaism, Christianity, and Islam) is the status of Jesus.  Was he the Messiah? Was he divine, but not the Messiah? Was he just a prophet? etc.

Offline chaoslord29

Re: mark of the beast?
« Reply #121 on: May 17, 2013, 01:36:29 PM »
As a group, they're referred to as the Abrahamic Religions since each one traces the lineage of their chosen people to Abraham, as the chosen of God, and then diverge from there.

I'm shakier though on the backdrop for Islam; does anyone know if they heel to the mythology of the Torah/Old Testament? Is the creation story with Adam and Eve in the Garden the same for all three?

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Re: mark of the beast?
« Reply #122 on: May 17, 2013, 02:00:39 PM »
Within a certain degree of poeticness.  I found a searchable English-language Koran online, put in 'creation' and found this:

Quote
[2.30] And when your Lord said to the angels, I am going to place in the earth a khalif, they said: What! wilt Thou place in it such as shall make mischief in it and shed blood, and we celebrate Thy praise and extol Thy holiness? He said: Surely I know what you do not know.
[2.31] And He taught Adam all the names, then presented them to the angels; then He said: Tell me the names of those if you are right.
[2.32] They said: Glory be to Thee! we have no knowledge but that which Thou hast taught us; surely Thou art the Knowing, the Wise.
[2.33] He said: O Adam! inform them of their names. Then when he had informed them of their names, He said: Did I not say to you that I surely know what is ghaib in the heavens and the earth and (that) I know what you manifest and what you hide?
[2.34] And when We said to the angels: Make obeisance to Adam they did obeisance, but Iblis (did it not). He refused and he was proud, and he was one of the unbelievers.
[2.35] And We said: O Adam! Dwell you and your wife in the garden and eat from it a plenteous (food) wherever you wish and do not approach this tree, for then you will be of the unjust.
[2.36] But the Shaitan made them both fall from it, and caused them to depart from that (state) in which they were; and We said: Get forth, some of you being the enemies of others, and there is for you in the earth an abode and a provision for a time.
[2.37] Then Adam received (some) words from his Lord, so He turned to him mercifully; surely He is Oft-returning (to mercy), the Merciful.

Offline chaoslord29

Re: mark of the beast?
« Reply #123 on: May 17, 2013, 03:41:38 PM »
Within a certain degree of poeticness.  I found a searchable English-language Koran online, put in 'creation' and found this:

Seems like it's very clearly influenced from the Christian/Greek reinterpretation of the story of the Garden according to the original Judaic tribes. No mention of Eve at all, even. Where does that appear in the Koran? As the defining creation myth?

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Re: mark of the beast?
« Reply #124 on: May 17, 2013, 04:10:39 PM »
I'm guessing it's near the beginning from the numbers.  Creation myths are usually the first part of any compendium.  Eve is mentioned, just not by name - verse 2.35