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Author Topic: Something I found on the net...  (Read 2384 times)

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Offline Ack Arg

Re: Something I found on the net...
« Reply #50 on: March 21, 2013, 05:31:21 PM »

I could get into a lot of arguments here. Ephiral is demonstrating exactly why protection for religion, especially from religion is so necessary. Personal autonomy is a big claim mostly unnecessary. I suspect it's simpler to say something like "women should be able to abort babies in a safe way." That might be preferable.


Valthazar, I'm more amazed by your "economics" than I am of your narrative about American society. I suppose that's something for another thread more suited to the topic. Three bits of reality to inject here:


1) A firm isn't for or against providing a service like women's healthcare. They're indifferent to it. They exist to make a profit. That's not the kind of firm we'd like when trying to grapple with reality but that's the bare bones, undergraduate economics assumption.


2) In reality, citizens fought private power and private interests (companies, corporations, individuals) to create standards for work and living. There's no magical free market where things solve themselves.


3) It's really important to question your assumptions. If you think it's uncontroversial that in America X, Y and Z and healthcare works a certain way, that's just dogmatism.


Does Beorning have a suggestion about where the conversation should be at this point? If not I'm thinking the best material is found in the linked statement from Sisters of Life. It might be good to slam our heads against that specifically.

Offline Ephiral

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Re: Something I found on the net...
« Reply #51 on: March 21, 2013, 06:07:30 PM »
I could get into a lot of arguments here. Ephiral is demonstrating exactly why protection for religion, especially from religion is so necessary. Personal autonomy is a big claim mostly unnecessary. I suspect it's simpler to say something like "women should be able to abort babies in a safe way." That might be preferable.
I think the wider claim is still valuable. Nobody has the right to tell you what you must, or what you cannot, do with your own body. Full stop. Are there any real grounds for dispute on this one?

Offline Kythia

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Re: Something I found on the net...
« Reply #52 on: March 21, 2013, 06:21:25 PM »
I think the wider claim is still valuable. Nobody has the right to tell you what you must, or what you cannot, do with your own body. Full stop. Are there any real grounds for dispute on this one?

Vaccinations?  I know its wildly off topic but an individual being vaccinated against whatever has benefits to all of society.

Meh.  Only one I thought of.  Drunk, so might not even make sense.

Offline Ephiral

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Re: Something I found on the net...
« Reply #53 on: March 21, 2013, 06:24:21 PM »
Vaccinations?  I know its wildly off topic but an individual being vaccinated against whatever has benefits to all of society.

Meh.  Only one I thought of.  Drunk, so might not even make sense.
...actually, that's a good one. Perhaps an "Except in the case of clear danger to the general population" clause is needed.

Offline BeorningTopic starter

Re: Something I found on the net...
« Reply #54 on: March 21, 2013, 07:41:43 PM »
Does Beorning have a suggestion about where the conversation should be at this point?

Not really - I'm just following the conversation, it's quite enlightening...

Offline Caela

Re: Something I found on the net...
« Reply #55 on: March 21, 2013, 09:20:55 PM »
Normal Saline, D5 1/2NS and Lactated Ringers can all be used to increase fluid volume.  This can be done to replenish lost blood, but when too much blood then they are at a significant deficit for hemoglobin.  Hemoglobin carries oxygen.  Without enough hemoglobin to supply oxygen to tissue the cells will die as they cannot make energy.  So while replacement fluids can be used to an extent, blood transfusions are optimal in cases of low hemoglobin.  Now what can be done if a Jehovah's Witness is awake and consent is the blood can be administered as platelettes (sp?) and plasma.  Apparently the stipulation is "whole blood."  By separating the whole blood into components there is a work around solution. 

Off topic I know, but just thought it was interesting enough to say.

[off topic] This actually depends on how strict the JW is. Working in surgery we have some come through that will not take any sort of blood products at all. This ends up including some of our hemostatic agents, most notably thrombin, which can be a real pain if they just won't stop bleeding. For a major surgery, and even a minor one if we know the patient is a JW, we'll set up a device called a "cell saver" that hooks up to our suction so that we can actually collect and spin down their own red blood cells to return to them. [/ off topic]

Offline Caela

Re: Something I found on the net...
« Reply #56 on: March 21, 2013, 09:25:24 PM »
Vaccinations?  I know its wildly off topic but an individual being vaccinated against whatever has benefits to all of society.

Meh.  Only one I thought of.  Drunk, so might not even make sense.

These are actually becoming a wildly contentious subject, especially as more and more parents refuse to get their children vaccinated.

...actually, that's a good one. Perhaps an "Except in the case of clear danger to the general population" clause is needed.

I am distrustful enough of my gov't to say, NO. If you give politicians a clause like this to play, any rights we enjoy will evaporate before our eyes as, "X, Y, Z, is a clear danger to the general population," become a new political mantra!

Offline Valthazar

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Re: Something I found on the net...
« Reply #57 on: March 21, 2013, 09:38:17 PM »
Valthazar, I'm more amazed by your "economics" than I am of your narrative about American society. I suppose that's something for another thread more suited to the topic.

Ack Arg, I was simply providing an alternative perspective.  I think most of us are here to learn more about the justifications of differing perspectives on this issue in a peaceful manner.

Offline Pumpkin Seeds

Re: Something I found on the net...
« Reply #58 on: March 22, 2013, 01:26:44 AM »
Also depends on the surgery.  One of the surgeons for a transplant had a JW type and screened for blood.  We asked why and he said, "he might have a change of religion on the operating table."  Apparently once you accept an organ your survival is not entirely your own choice.

Offline Oniya

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Re: Something I found on the net...
« Reply #59 on: March 22, 2013, 07:18:39 AM »
...Possibly because once you accept that organ, it can't go to anyone else.  (Time constraints if nothing else.)

Offline Pumpkin Seeds

Re: Something I found on the net...
« Reply #60 on: March 22, 2013, 08:19:13 AM »
The alternative would be denying someone acceptance onto the organ recipient list based solely on religious belief.  Since that is illegal the physician cannot factor that into refusing or denying a candidate for an organ transplant.  A recipient though is required to give the organ the best chance of survival and the physician has to do everything they can to give the organ the best chance to survive and take with the new body.  By giving the organ to one person another is denied, so the law doesn’t quite take the same view.  I believe the protection goes under the same protection an emergency room uses in the instance of an emergency.  Calling for help (aka calling 911 or contacting emergency services) is consent if the patient is unconscious or unable to respond.  Because the person came to the physician for an organ, they are considered to be agreeable to any and all necessary steps.

Offline Oniya

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Re: Something I found on the net...
« Reply #61 on: March 22, 2013, 09:24:18 AM »
Right.  Actually, other alternatives would be for someone to not ask to be put on the list in the first place, because of transfusion beliefs, or to self-donate while waiting for the transplant (if feasible).  When I went in for jaw surgery, they actually suggested the self-donating because it avoided any possible compatibility issues.  I don't recall actually doing it, but then again, I don't have any particular interest in whether I get my blood or someone else's.

Offline Ephiral

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Re: Something I found on the net...
« Reply #62 on: March 22, 2013, 09:27:24 AM »
Right.  Actually, other alternatives would be for someone to not ask to be put on the list in the first place, because of transfusion beliefs, or to self-donate while waiting for the transplant (if feasible).  When I went in for jaw surgery, they actually suggested the self-donating because it avoided any possible compatibility issues.  I don't recall actually doing it, but then again, I don't have any particular interest in whether I get my blood or someone else's.
Huh. Self-donating is something I've never heard of before, and should really look into. My partner and I are both O+, which frankly scares me a bit given how strained our national blood supply constantly is.

Offline Pumpkin Seeds

Re: Something I found on the net...
« Reply #63 on: March 22, 2013, 09:29:45 AM »
Well any time you donate you're given some sort of guarantee or something regarding you getting blood transfusions.  I've never had a problem getting blood for a patient and I've given a lot of blood over my little career.

But yes you can actually donate before an operation for yourself and can also do personal blood drives for someone else specifically.  Sort of setting aside blood for them personally.
« Last Edit: March 22, 2013, 09:32:10 AM by Pumpkin Seeds »

Offline Oniya

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Re: Something I found on the net...
« Reply #64 on: March 22, 2013, 09:36:24 AM »
Huh. Self-donating is something I've never heard of before, and should really look into. My partner and I are both O+, which frankly scares me a bit given how strained our national blood supply constantly is.

In my case, it was a planned surgery, with enough lead-time that I would replenish the loss by the time the actual date arrived.  Mr. Oniya used to donate regularly (whole and platelets) until he had a bad reaction to something (he was donating platelets at the time), and I remember the guarantee because he asked if it could be applied to his mother (she's a senior, and lives several states away.)

Offline backlash84

Re: Something I found on the net...
« Reply #65 on: April 07, 2013, 12:28:58 AM »
Honestly, I don't see the issue here. Its legal, they have to pay for what is legal just like everybody else. Its a human right. I'm sure some KKK members don't like that their taxes go towards paying for black people's health care and such. There isn't an only white people option. I am agnostic, and I'm annoyed that the church is tax exempt.

Religion should have nothing to do with law, that's how you get countries where you can stone a woman for getting raped.

Offline Bandita

Re: Something I found on the net...
« Reply #66 on: April 07, 2013, 03:01:20 AM »
I see that no one has yet pointed out the inaccuracy of the nuns' argument yet.  Leaving out religion as a whole, because I've seen what that does on here...

They are wrong, and they are twisting the health care policy towards religious ends.  I say this not because of any definition of life or soul or child or whatever.  I say this because everyone here seems to have missed that the nuns have no idea how a health care policy works.  Or if they do, they are ignoring that information.  They are using a religious excuse to get out of their country's mandated obligations, and are doing it inaccurately.

What I mean by this is:
1.  By paying into a health care policy you are putting money into your own health.
2.  When you do so, they pay it back every time you need a doctor's appointment, blood test, pap schmear, mammogram, etc... all things a nun requires...
3.  Your collected money go towards paying back the lab, the doctor, and the radiology clinic.
4.  If there is money left in your 'account' at the end of the year, it makes your rates good.  You probably won't get a discount for a good record like you might for something like auto insurance, but it still helps out your rates if you shop around for other providers.
5.  Finally, if you stick with a company for a long time, which a nun would probably be able to do, they end up paying huge amounts as you draw close to your end of life.  Most people have some kind of disease, or wasting sickness that ends their life, particularly in 'first world countries' where people live so long.
6.  If, for some reason, you have an early death and don't use up your 'collected funds' that you paid in for years, yes, you lose the money.  But you still have not paid for any contraception or abortion.

Another person: 
1.  Buys healthcare from the same provider.
2.  Requires contraception.
3.  Gets it through their own contributions to the health care insurance company.
4.  Has still not cost the nun a dime, nor even met her, or been in contact with her or her money in any way.


What I'm saying here is, if you don't believe in abortion, then you don't have one, same for contraception.  The insurance company doesn't have to pay for one then. There could be an argument that the money goes into a huge fund that pays for abortion, but then again, my money in that same company goes in to saving a pedophile priest.  I can't dictate that, and they can't either.  But the fact is, if they don't have an abortion, then the company is not paying for said abortion. 

And yes, the plans are required to guarantee the option of having an abortion, but that doesn't mean that they are just paying for abortions willy nilly. And many of the policies already cover that. Now, if the insurance companies were jacking up their prices in order to cover all these abortions, and contraceptives, that would be a different story.  However, that is not the case, they are actually under even more stringent rules about their pricing than they were previously, another part of the health care plan.  They can't charge extra for the 'abortion option,' because they can't jack up their prices now. 

The argument that the nuns are paying left and right for abortions is incorrect.  Insurance doesn't work that way. The excess money they pay is more likely going to the pocket of an executive.

Edit to add:  This notion of insurance covering abortions is actually a great thing, and I can see why the church would want to fight it.  Especially in states like Mississippi.  If anyone doesn't follow this, there's a law that has been on the books, but suspended by a judge.  It would close down the last abortion clinic in the state due to a medical technicality.  The leadership of the state, including the governor, I believe, have said that it would "end abortions in Mississippi." 

The problem with that notion is that they are not ending abortion in a private, paid for manner, only in the one remaining clinic.  All those people who have health care or money are welcome to go to a hospital and have the same procedure, so in effect, this law is only ending abortion for the least wealthy people, who can't afford health care and hospitals.

So, if everyone is mandated to get health care, and they do, all of a sudden those clinics that the religious leadership in the state have worked so hard to shut down is now unnecessary, because now everyone can go to the hospital for their abortion, and go to their new primary care doctor to get contraception. 

Yeah, I can see how they would want to stop that.
« Last Edit: April 07, 2013, 03:12:54 AM by Bandita »

Offline Ephiral

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Re: Something I found on the net...
« Reply #67 on: April 07, 2013, 03:17:34 AM »
It's not quite that simple, though, Bandita, much as I wish it were. The entire point of mandatory coverage is to widen the risk pool - because some people will be very very sick, and their "account" will never have the slightest hope of ever having a positive balance, and they should not be left to die, while others will be very healthy and run a constant and large positive balance. The healthy people do subsidize the sick ones - there is a definite transfer of resources occurring. That's how it works.

Offline Bandita

Re: Something I found on the net...
« Reply #68 on: April 07, 2013, 09:16:39 AM »
Well, first of all, the government funds abortions.  So if one pays their taxes they have already paid into a system that funds abortion.  So the "common pool" argument is null for every nun who has ever paid her taxes. And they do pay income taxes, not that the church pays them much.

To be honest, considering the demographics of nuns, we should all be saying... "You're going to eat up the pool in our health care."  I read somewhere that 70% of nuns are over sixty, and that was years ago.  The fact is that they are all elderly, there are very few young ones.  So if they're really stressed about it, they can just tell themselves they're paying in so another nun across the country can get her dialysis. 

The problem with their argument is that it's could hurt the poor.  They might convince a few people that they have been funding abortions and they'll drop their coverage. And then they fall down a flight of stairs, or get pancreatitis, or whatever...  and they're screwed. And I'm back to funding their trip to the ER.    <-----(my reason I have loved Obamacare all along... Because we pay for tons of medical stuff either way, but the ER is more expensive)

Offline Ephiral

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Re: Something I found on the net...
« Reply #69 on: April 07, 2013, 07:22:59 PM »
For the record, I am not supporting the nuns' argument in any way. Simply saying that pretending health resources are not pooled is not the way to argue against it, because that argument will fall the moment anybody examines it.

Offline Cyrano Johnson

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Re: Something I found on the net...
« Reply #70 on: April 08, 2013, 01:24:55 AM »
But yes, I do agree that for the average person living in the US, things are not ideal.  I guess the reality is that the US is an amazing country for people with above average financial means.  Personally, I respond to that positively by seeing the benefits of such a system - that ambition and hard work yields immense benefits.

The corollary of this kind of thinking of course is that all the less-fortunate people must be lazy and unambitious. Which, you know... at this point, I kind of have to admit to just cheering for the American conservative movement to continue digging its own grave by more-or-less openly denigrating and insulting (or just dismissing) larger and larger portions of the country's electorate. They've drifted so far out of touch with reality that it's just better for everyone in the long run, really. But at individual level, I'm still kind of puzzled at someone who can say something like the above and actually not realize, or not care, that this is what they're doing. Your country is only "amazing" for people with "above average financial means" and you think that's something to be celebrated, and you say this with a straight face as if you think the average person should buy into it*. Just, you know... wow.

(* I mean, the method used to be to get every "average person" to buy into the myth that they're really just a temporarily-embarrassed millionaire, which particular con used to be called "trickle-down economics." But bogus as it was, trickle-down at least tried to pretend that general prosperity was its aim; it wasn't just a flat-out dismissal of the notion that general prosperity should ever be a policy concern, much less an open defense of the notion that general poverty is actually preferable to interfering with the high times of the wealthy. I guess in that respect today's conservative movement has gotten more honest... but don't they still want to get, like, votes and stuff? From someone other than the Koch brothers?)

Offline Bandita

Re: Something I found on the net...
« Reply #71 on: April 08, 2013, 08:58:58 PM »
For the record, I am not supporting the nuns' argument in any way. Simply saying that pretending health resources are not pooled is not the way to argue against it, because that argument will fall the moment anybody examines it.

Okay.  But then if they object to paying in to an abortion 'pool' then they should refuse to pay their taxes too. 

But the fact is that with the demographic age range of nuns, they're probably more likely to be paying for elderly nuns, who need the care. And the insurance companies can't reject them based on age anymore.

And besides, if they really object, they can simply opt out of health care and pay their fines.  That is always an option.  If their health care is prohibitively expensive and they cannot, then they are not paying in to a pool, they are paying their own health care. 

The fact is, they are paying for a policy that covers exactly one person.  What that policy covers is their own body.  Nothing more.  If that body never receives birth control etc... then they aren't actually paying for it.  The company simply provides it to other customers who also pay.