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Author Topic: Economic Discussion of Minimum Wage Laws  (Read 3896 times)

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Offline ValthazarTopic starter

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Re: Economic Discussion of Minimum Wage Laws
« Reply #25 on: March 21, 2013, 08:50:54 AM »
Firstly let me get this out of the way before discussing some of the other points from this thread.



Australian minimum wage: AUD$15.96 or US$16.59 (source)
U.S. minimum wage: US$7.25 (source)

Australian unemployment rate: 5.4% (source)
U.S. unemployment rate: 7.7% (source)



So yes, I do find it strange hearing Americans talking about higher minimum wages like no one knows what will happen and we have to use advanced economic theory and thought experiments to predict it.

Caehlim,

I appreciate you bringing Australia into this discussion, because they are one of the few countries that actually knows how to properly go about setting a minimum wage.  There are many differences between the minimum wage laws of Australia and the US.  When the US passes minimum wage laws, they generally tend to be of a sweeping nature, applying to all workers in the economy.  As we have discussed so far, this creates significant problems with entry-level employees and the elderly.  Let us examine how Australia goes about doing things:

First and foremost, the minimum wage is set accordingly based on age:

    Under 16 years of age  $5.87
    At 16 years of age   $7.55
    At 17 years of age   $9.22
    At 18 years of age   $10.90
    At 19 years of age   $13.17
    At 20 years of age   $15.59.
Source: http://www.fairwork.gov.au/pay/national-minimum-wage/pages/default.aspx

Notice how the minimum wage for workers around age 18 is much less than your over 20 minimum wage?  This makes it easier for entry-level workers to find employment, since it gives businesses a competitive advantage to hire younger employees.

Also, let us examine the minimum wage laws in Australia for individuals with disabilities and the elderly:

"The percentage is based on ‘assessed productive capacity’. For example, someone with a capacity of 70% would get 70% of Special National Minimum Wage 1 (ie. 70% of $15.96 per hour)."
Source: http://www.fairwork.gov.au/employment/employees-with-disability/pages/special-national-minimum-wage-for-employees-with-disability.aspx

In other words, Australia's minimum wage policies are done the way it should be done.  It allows for a base standard of living, without creating a scenario where the minimum wage laws ultimately end up hurting the employment prospects of the people it strives to help.  Obviously my knowledge of Australia's economic policies is limited, but it is clear to me that these caveats in the laws play a large role in why it is so successful for your country.  I'm interested to hear your insight on this.
« Last Edit: March 21, 2013, 09:22:45 AM by ValthazarElite »

Offline Caehlim

Re: Economic Discussion of Minimum Wage Laws
« Reply #26 on: March 21, 2013, 09:52:54 AM »
Forgive me for not going into detail about the differing laws for younger employees, I honestly assumed that yours worked the same way and we could just use the adult rates for comparisons without going into the complexities of different age groups and other special cases.

Are you telling me that you don't have different rates for younger workers in America?  :o I'm surprised. It seems very common sense. I think I fell victim to my cultural biases prejudicing my opinion.

Obviously my knowledge of Australia's economic policies is limited, but it is clear to me that these caveats in the laws play a large role in why it is so successful for your country.  I'm interested to hear your insight on this.

I definitely agree that something like this is essential to making a minimum wage system work correctly. I definitely understand your concerns a lot more if you don't have anything like this.

We also have a million of other mechanisms built in. There are government subsidies provided to businesses who take on apprentices, tax-breaks to companies who hire the long-term unemployed and a comprehensive national job-seeking network.

You can receive unemployment benefits for your entire life here, at $497 a fortnight base rate (source) it's enough to meet basic standard of living, although it is contingent on proving that you're applying to jobs and attending any offered interviews.

If you're unemployed and receiving benefits you're required to attend jobsearch meetings where a case manager helps you find work. They're given funds from the government that they can spend on providing you with training, interview clothes, transport, assistance moving closer to employment, whatever is required. That company then receives a massive bonus from the government when you start work and remain employed for 6 months or more. Whoever hires you is given a bonus as well.

When I was unemployed when I was younger, my jobsearching agency paid for me to attend a training course for a security license and also paid for the licensing fees etc. This got me employed for the next two years working in security and I only left that field due to an injury.

We don't have student loans. To pay for university we have HECS loans, which you don't need to pay back until you start earning over a particular threshold (Source). You're also paid to attend university (Source).




There is a lot of assistance to help people find work here, but there's also a lot of assistance for people who don't have work. I think it's a good system personally and it's hard not to feel patriotic pride about it.

Offline Callie Del Noire

Re: Economic Discussion of Minimum Wage Laws
« Reply #27 on: March 21, 2013, 09:58:54 AM »
No, Caehlim, we don't vary minimum wage. It's the same if you're a 17 or 90 year old. You get paid the same rate throughout a state. Supposedly you can live off of it.. but more often than not, it takes more than one person in a household to make a viable living in a LOT of homes. You have about a year, I think, to start paying back your loans after getting through with school too. (Folks feel free to correct me)

I'm willing to bet you don't have a lot of the corporate welfare we give out via our government either.

Business isn't always fair. If you a BIG company..like.. say.. GE, you can make record profits and thanks to the way the laws are written actually earn a tax CREDIT. While laying off thousands of US jobs and outsourcing..and get compensated for it all. The BIG companies have gamed the system for the last 5 or 6 decades and now we're starting to fall apart because they aren't paying their share, all the while whining about what they DO pay.


Offline ValthazarTopic starter

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Re: Economic Discussion of Minimum Wage Laws
« Reply #28 on: March 21, 2013, 10:15:12 AM »
There is a lot of assistance to help people find work here, but there's also a lot of assistance for people who don't have work. I think it's a good system personally and it's hard not to feel patriotic pride about it.

Caehlim, thanks for the information.

It definitely seems like you have a great system in Australia.  I think Americans are torn when they hear about programs like that.  On one hand, it is ingrained into us culturally that there is a sense of pride that comes from being self-sufficient, and being able to independently take care of yourself and your family without the help of the government.  That culture is starting to change, but even so, we can't help but feel a sense of respect for people who do whatever it takes (working 3 jobs plus overtime) just to make ends meet.

The reality is that if you earn above an average income, America is an amazing place to live.  If you earn average or below income, you will face significant challenges.  For what it's worth though, maybe that's the price of living in a completely free society with (currently) limited laws and government intervention.  That is quickly changing though.

Offline Caehlim

Re: Economic Discussion of Minimum Wage Laws
« Reply #29 on: March 21, 2013, 10:16:18 AM »
I'm willing to bet you don't have a lot of the corporate welfare we give out via our government either.

I wish I could say that, although to be fair there are problems with that here too.

Here's an article about it Corporate welfare looms as major hurdle. (This is from the IPA, which is an Australian think-tank that I think is roughly analogous to the CATO institute in America so don't forget to account for their biases).

Quote
Business isn't always fair. If you a BIG company..like.. say.. GE, you can make record profits and thanks to the way the laws are written actually earn a tax CREDIT. While laying off thousands of US jobs and outsourcing..and get compensated for it all. The BIG companies have gamed the system for the last 5 or 6 decades and now we're starting to fall apart because they aren't paying their share, all the while whining about what they DO pay.

To the best of my knowledge (which is minimal on this topic), we have less corporate tax dodges over here. As my last post suggested, we have a fairly large government involvement in things so there's a fairly high tax rate.

Lately our scandals have more been union bosses embezzling. For example the AWU affair.

Offline Caela

Re: Economic Discussion of Minimum Wage Laws
« Reply #30 on: March 21, 2013, 03:55:11 PM »
Callie, it's actually six months before you're expected to start paying back student loans. However it's not that hard to get them put into a forbearance if you can't afford to pay them and if you are still in school you can have them deferred completely. The main difference between the two being that some of your loans (can never remember if it's subsidized or un-subsidized) will continue to accrue interest while in a forbearance but will be completely static while deferred.

Some people have them in a forbearance, or deferred, for YEARS.

Offline Trieste

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Re: Economic Discussion of Minimum Wage Laws
« Reply #31 on: March 22, 2013, 12:31:23 AM »
The subsidized loans are essentially when the government pays interest (which is where the subsidy is from). Unsubbed loans, you pay the interest. (Technically, they both accrue interest while you're in school. It's just that you don't have to pay that interest on some.)

Offline Pumpkin Seeds

Re: Economic Discussion of Minimum Wage Laws
« Reply #32 on: March 22, 2013, 01:40:35 AM »
Student loans are probably the nicest loans you can get.  There are some professions where they are cracking down on non-payment, such as refusing a nurse a license if they go into default on the loan.  By and large though the companies are pretty eager to work with you on getting those loans at least somewhat paid.  Hopefully some sort of student loan forgivness plan is going to come down from the government though as I believe student debt is supposed to be surpassing all other forms soon.  I could be wrong.
« Last Edit: March 22, 2013, 01:43:52 AM by Pumpkin Seeds »

Offline ValthazarTopic starter

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Re: Economic Discussion of Minimum Wage Laws
« Reply #33 on: March 22, 2013, 12:29:04 PM »
Student loans are probably the nicest loans you can get.  There are some professions where they are cracking down on non-payment, such as refusing a nurse a license if they go into default on the loan.  By and large though the companies are pretty eager to work with you on getting those loans at least somewhat paid.  Hopefully some sort of student loan forgivness plan is going to come down from the government though as I believe student debt is supposed to be surpassing all other forms soon.  I could be wrong.

I actually think student loans are one of the worst kinds of loans out there, even though it is essential for most people.  The reality is that you cannot file for bankruptcy on student loans - so they stick with you for life.  In contrast, if you have thousands of dollars in credit card debt, you can simply file for bankruptcy and have a clean slate (despite a terrible credit score). 

You are right that many employers want to work with the employees on their loan payments, but this is usually only for federal student loans.  Many individuals have taken out sizable private loans to attend expensive private universities from companies like Sallie Mae, which have variable interest rates, and little flexibility with income-based repayments. 
« Last Edit: March 22, 2013, 12:33:00 PM by ValthazarElite »

Offline crabmouse003

Re: Economic Discussion of Minimum Wage Laws
« Reply #34 on: June 01, 2013, 04:39:26 PM »
Increasing minimum wage is a good idea, and most economists agree. Look up IGM's polling for more information. Increasing minimum wage will increase prices for commodities like fast food, but not by a notice amount. Since companies still have to compete with each other, most of the cost will come out of profits. This will help the economy, since people who are paid minimum wage spend their entire paychecks.

Offline crabmouse003

Re: Economic Discussion of Minimum Wage Laws
« Reply #35 on: June 01, 2013, 04:47:00 PM »
Raising minimum wage won't really cost extra jobs, since most companies pay minimum wage to maximize profits, not because they can't afford to pay more. Raising minimum wage may make it harder for inexperienced wieners to get a job, since min wage jobs will look slightly better to more experienced people, but the benefits of the extra income outweighs this cost.

Offline crabmouse003

Re: Economic Discussion of Minimum Wage Laws
« Reply #36 on: June 01, 2013, 11:58:07 PM »
Student loans are probably the nicest loans you can get.  There are some professions where they are cracking down on non-payment, such as refusing a nurse a license if they go into default on the loan.  By and large though the companies are pretty eager to work with you on getting those loans at least somewhat paid.  Hopefully some sort of student loan forgivness plan is going to come down from the government though as I believe student debt is supposed to be surpassing all other forms soon.  I could be wrong.

The sequester has raised interest rates on student loans. It might be possible that the sequester is canceled, but it's not likely that a bill that benefits students will get through the house.

Offline Retribution

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Re: Economic Discussion of Minimum Wage Laws
« Reply #37 on: June 02, 2013, 08:32:01 PM »
Reading this with all the economics makes my eyes glaze over. Thankfully my wife is the one with the MBA who thinks about such things. So here is my entirely unempirical thoughts on it. Over the last say decade I have seen companies I inspect close, move over seas, so on and so forth. Being an environmental professional I can often tell how a company is doing when I look at their waste streams. Not much waste generated not much work is being done. Many large companies that I inspect are now warehouses the jobs gone over seas.

What I think is causing this is a vicious circle and I am not sure how to fix it or if minimum wage has an effect. Basically we are want products as cheap as we can get them and we tend to buy cheap. Heck, I often by new things at an elevated price thinking they will work better and they often do not so I generally go cheap. Money often gets tight after all. I think a lot of people do the same. But in the US we have an elevated standard of living as well as an elevated cost of things. So, you need well a lot more than minimum wage to make ends meet. But it is hard to fill jobs at that price when we buy cheap and to get that cheap price the labor say goes to China.

And companies are out for companies, labor is out for labor, all trying to squeeze every red cent out of things. It makes a vicious circle with the working stiff caught in the middle because I do not think companies or organized labor have the 9-5 person's best interest in mind. No idea on earth how to fix this but it just makes it hard all the way around. There is an inherent thought process in the worker that they are owed something for minimum effort and that all large profitable companies are bad. There is an inherent thought process on the say corporate side that workers are lazy and they should be squeezed. Then toss in those who do not educate themselves, learn a trade, or do anything to help their cause while decrying their plight in life. Minimum wage does not fix any of these things and I kind of look at it as a feel good approach.

Offline Callie Del Noire

Re: Economic Discussion of Minimum Wage Laws
« Reply #38 on: June 02, 2013, 09:24:51 PM »
You want jobs to come back?

My take is this: stop rewarding big international businesses exporting the jobs, lower the higher (30%+) corporate tax rate to something competative with European rates while cutting out the 'tax dodges' and instead of rewarding outsourcing reward corporate reinvestment in our communities.

Offline Retribution

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Re: Economic Discussion of Minimum Wage Laws
« Reply #39 on: June 02, 2013, 09:30:01 PM »
Well if you want to talk taxes I favor a flat tax. Cross the board all incomes all companies pick a number I do not care what the number is and we -all- pay it. No deductions, no tax breaks, no well those who earn more can pay more. Pick a number and everyone pays that number rich, poor, big business, small business. Stop using the tax code to try and social engineer as well as influence the economy....simplify it.

But that is for another discussion.

Offline crabmouse003

Re: Economic Discussion of Minimum Wage Laws
« Reply #40 on: June 03, 2013, 01:30:33 AM »
Reading this with all the economics makes my eyes glaze over. Thankfully my wife is the one with the MBA who thinks about such things. So here is my entirely unempirical thoughts on it. Over the last say decade I have seen companies I inspect close, move over seas, so on and so forth. Being an environmental professional I can often tell how a company is doing when I look at their waste streams. Not much waste generated not much work is being done. Many large companies that I inspect are now warehouses the jobs gone over seas.

What I think is causing this is a vicious circle and I am not sure how to fix it or if minimum wage has an effect. Basically we are want products as cheap as we can get them and we tend to buy cheap. Heck, I often by new things at an elevated price thinking they will work better and they often do not so I generally go cheap. Money often gets tight after all. I think a lot of people do the same. But in the US we have an elevated standard of living as well as an elevated cost of things. So, you need well a lot more than minimum wage to make ends meet. But it is hard to fill jobs at that price when we buy cheap and to get that cheap price the labor say goes to China.

And companies are out for companies, labor is out for labor, all trying to squeeze every red cent out of things. It makes a vicious circle with the working stiff caught in the middle because I do not think companies or organized labor have the 9-5 person's best interest in mind. No idea on earth how to fix this but it just makes it hard all the way around. There is an inherent thought process in the worker that they are owed something for minimum effort and that all large profitable companies are bad. There is an inherent thought process on the say corporate side that workers are lazy and they should be squeezed. Then toss in those who do not educate themselves, learn a trade, or do anything to help their cause while decrying their plight in life. Minimum
wage does not fix any of these things and I kind of look at it as a feel good approach.

Raising the minimum wage won't move jobs to other countries, since most of the jobs that pay minimum wage are in the service industry, like fast food, janitorial work etc. Saying people should just go learn a trade or work harder isn't a viable option, since these are jobs that need to be filled either way. With more people educating themselves, the value of the education decreases.  Raising the minimum wage is a good way to make sure people who are working hard don't have to live in poverty. You will find that people who work minimum wage are forced to work multiple jobs.

If we want to bring jobs back to the US we can reverse the policies that sent them away in the first place. It's doubtful this would increase the real value of wages, since this will also raise prices.

Offline Retribution

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Re: Economic Discussion of Minimum Wage Laws
« Reply #41 on: June 03, 2013, 05:51:20 AM »
My point was I do not think you can live on minimum wage unless it is raised to impractically high levels. The proposed increase will not change that. One can say learning a trade or getting educated would be devalued or is not for everyone, but what is the alternative?

Offline crabmouse003

Re: Economic Discussion of Minimum Wage Laws
« Reply #42 on: June 03, 2013, 11:25:31 AM »
My point was I do not think you can live on minimum wage unless it is raised to impractically high levels. The proposed increase will not change that. One can say learning a trade or getting educated would be devalued or is not for everyone, but what is the alternative?

Raising minimum wage would help, but you're right, it wouldn't fix the poverty problem.
Don't get me wrong, education is great, and we need to give people in poverty better access. More social safety nets, a negative income tax, would help eliminate poverty. We should emulate the scandinavian countries who have basically already done it.

Offline Ephiral

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Re: Economic Discussion of Minimum Wage Laws
« Reply #43 on: June 03, 2013, 11:31:26 AM »
You want jobs to come back?

My take is this: stop rewarding big international businesses exporting the jobs, lower the higher (30%+) corporate tax rate to something competative with European rates while cutting out the 'tax dodges' and instead of rewarding outsourcing reward corporate reinvestment in our communities.

Err. I see two major problems here. First, during America's most prosperous years, when corporations were still at home and things were still made there, corporate tax rates were considerably higher. Second, the third-highest corporate marginal tax rate in Europe, at a hair over 33%,  is in Germany, while the lowest (10%) is shared by economic powerhouses Albania, Bosnia and Herzegovina, Cyprus, and Serbia.

Perhaps low corporate taxes aren't the answer?

Well if you want to talk taxes I favor a flat tax. Cross the board all incomes all companies pick a number I do not care what the number is and we -all- pay it. No deductions, no tax breaks, no well those who earn more can pay more. Pick a number and everyone pays that number rich, poor, big business, small business. Stop using the tax code to try and social engineer as well as influence the economy....simplify it.

But that is for another discussion.

So... rather than paying actual living wages, you would like the poor to shoulder even more of the economic burden? 'Cause that's kinda what a flat tax does.

Offline Retribution

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Re: Economic Discussion of Minimum Wage Laws
« Reply #44 on: June 03, 2013, 12:49:36 PM »
In order sans the quotes that make it hard to read:

Crabmouse003 -> Sorry I just plain do not buy it. I know school is not for everyone but learn a trade welder, plumber, mechanic, truck driver, something that you can do that has a value. We got plenty of social safety nets I have gone to work every day weather I liked to or not for the last 23 years and I am getting pretty tired of supporting those who do not. I am all for programs that would help these people learn a trade but not for handouts. How I view minimum wage jobs are they are meant for teens or young people just starting out until they get their feet under them not as a way of life.

Ephiral -> That sort of thinking is just plain wrong. They tried taking from the haves to give to the have nots in the old USSR and it did not work so well. Or feel free to ask someone in say Cuba about how that sort of economic model works for them. One does not encourage excellence by punishing excellence. I do not care if you inherited your money from great grandpa, great grandpa earned it and it is his right to leave it to his heirs it is not the government’s money.

Learn a trade, earn a living wage at that trade. Heck, I am all for the government paying to send you to trade school to learn that trade but get a job and be a productive member of society. As for flat taxes percentages working as they do you earn less you pay less you earn more you pay more it is simple math. This whole notion of lets punish people for earning a decent wage and having the ambition to go make something of themselves is why we have people sitting around decrying their plight in life and not doing something about it. As I used to tell the kids I coached I do not like excuses. Yoda was a very smart little green man “do or do not do not try.”

And do not bother telling me I do not know what it is like to be poor. I grew up poor and wondering at times where my next meal was coming from. I mean that in a very literal sense I will spare you the walked 5 miles to school uphill both ways details, but trust me I have seen hard times. I chose to take advantage of opportunities that are out there and got past that. I am not saying we should not help those who need help we should, but this is not and should not be a life style and punishing those who chose to better themselves by using the tax code is wrong.

Offline Trieste

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Re: Economic Discussion of Minimum Wage Laws
« Reply #45 on: June 03, 2013, 01:04:09 PM »
Except it's not a punishment. The government taking 10% of your earnings when you make 20k a year? That's punishment. Success comes with responsibilities, but those responsibilities are not necessarily punishments, they're just Shit You Do Because You're Successful. It's not a punishment for success any more than homeowner's association fees, car insurance, cabana boy salary expenses and paying for the coconut oil with which to slather them are punishments. They are financial responsibilities that you accept because you're successful and you're living like a successful person.

Paying higher taxes is part of acknowledging that you are successful and your responsibility as a successful person to society has grown. It's kind of like being given more responsibility while you're growing up - being given more complicated or more numerous chores may seem like a punishment because they're not fun, but they're not - they're just a result of being recognized as being older, more mature, and (for example) able to reach the sink well enough to be able to do the dishes.

Bitching about having to pay more of your income to provide other people with the same help that you likely received to GET your higher income is really... well, that's really something, yes it is.

Offline Callie Del Noire

Re: Economic Discussion of Minimum Wage Laws
« Reply #46 on: June 03, 2013, 01:37:40 PM »
The problem is Retribution, it that it's getting harder and harder to find jobs in some areas with 'living wages' at the lower tiers. I got a few neighbors who have to work 60 hours a week, both of them, to make a living as the job market around here imploded. Trade schools are all well and find but there is a LOT of pressure to curtail or outright shut down vocational training in some public school districts.

There is a telling push for 'college' to succeed. I talked to about 3 dozen workers I had working for me in the Navy.. every last one of them were skilled technicians who thought they needed a degree to be a success. I pointed out an Electrician certification and/or Airframes/Powerplants License, FCC Certification would get them outstanding jobs in the commercial market for what we did. It was not even in their outlook.

I'm as much a victim of this 'college or starve' outlook in that my Uncle Earl offered me a job with his refrigeration firm. Had I taken him up on it, I'd have been making something like 50 grand a year by the second year after highschool. (We talked about it years later). I talked with a friend of my last year, he's a teacher, and in his rural community there is a massive push to shut down the vocational training section of the public school system. (The tea party took control on the local level). He found it ironic since three of the candidates came into the board electon as 'building the future' platform types.

Today we have a lot of candidates who push 'building the future' and yet I see little of it when it comes to education. You get more and more folks pushing for less and less education in the public system, and then pushing for less and less 'regulation' of business practices. 'Right to Work' cost me a job because they were looking to cut costs. (The guy point blank thanked me for giving him the excuse to let the new 25/hour guy so he could hire a less qualfied man who only rated a 17/hour rate. He tried to force 15 year vet workers to take 2 to 3 steps down in pay to make himself look good.

Let's face it.. in the last 3 decades the outlook in business has been to make everything cheaper/quicker or less costly. I have a handful of friends who can't get a job because they aren't qualified.. but because they are. I was told by one company that I was 'too good' to do the job. (IE.. the supervising manager feared I could do his job.. which, had I the FAA qualifications for civilian work.. I could, but I didn't want it. I LIKE working on aircraft and doing things with my hands.. not coordinating the shop and telling others what to do.)

Minimum wage hasn't moved with the times.. and won't for a long while. We got folks working 2 to 3 jobs to keep their kids fed, and never getting to see them and literally working themselves into a grave.  In Europe, I see folks working not as long but living as well. Because there is a consideation of both the worker and the business.

Here in the US.. there is no consideration for the worker anymore. Not really.

Offline Kythia

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Re: Economic Discussion of Minimum Wage Laws
« Reply #47 on: June 03, 2013, 01:46:44 PM »
Err. I see two major problems here. First, during America's most prosperous years, when corporations were still at home and things were still made there, corporate tax rates were considerably higher. Second, the third-highest corporate marginal tax rate in Europe, at a hair over 33%,  is in Germany, while the lowest (10%) is shared by economic powerhouses Albania, Bosnia and Herzegovina, Cyprus, and Serbia.

Glad to see I'm not the only one person who ignores the existence of Montenegro  :P

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Re: Economic Discussion of Minimum Wage Laws
« Reply #48 on: June 03, 2013, 01:50:12 PM »
Ephiral -> That sort of thinking is just plain wrong. They tried taking from the haves to give to the have nots in the old USSR and it did not work so well. Or feel free to ask someone in say Cuba about how that sort of economic model works for them. One does not encourage excellence by punishing excellence. I do not care if you inherited your money from great grandpa, great grandpa earned it and it is his right to leave it to his heirs it is not the government’s money.

Where do I even begin here? First, let's try your bullshit comparison to Cuba or the USSR. This is a facile, childish argument, and you know it. I'll rebut by simply pointing to the fact that pretty much every reasonably-successful country in the world uses a progressive tax system, and you're able to cite exactly one example of a nation brought down by economic policy. The weight of evidence is... not on your side. Next... let's define "excellence", shall we? I'd like to know exactly what criteria you're looking at. And finally for the first paragraph: It's his money, not the government's, right? So I assume that Great Grampa built the highway system? Paid the police directly to protect his workers? Used absolutely no tools or equipment that had ever seen any government funding, either via direct grants or tax incentives to the developers and manufacturers?

Learn a trade, earn a living wage at that trade. Heck, I am all for the government paying to send you to trade school to learn that trade but get a job and be a productive member of society. As for flat taxes percentages working as they do you earn less you pay less you earn more you pay more it is simple math. This whole notion of lets punish people for earning a decent wage and having the ambition to go make something of themselves is why we have people sitting around decrying their plight in life and not doing something about it. As I used to tell the kids I coached I do not like excuses. Yoda was a very smart little green man “do or do not do not try.”

Learn a trade, try to earn a living wage at that trade, realize that in America right now the supply of labour far outstrips the demand, deal with mounting debts from your education. Any model that assumes employment as a guaranteed and automatic result of qualifications regardless of field or circumstances is incredibly naive. And since it seems you haven't thought through the implications of what you're proposing: When you're making $20 000 a year, $4000 taken out of that can mean you can no longer afford to eat well or have a roof over your head. When you're making $20 000 000 a year, $4 000 000... really isn't going to affect your quality of life in any meaningful way. So while it might be an equal percentage, it is by no means an equal burden. Now we look at required revenue, and realize that under a flat-tax system, taxes on the poor - the ones for whom this is already a massive burden - will go up, while taxes on the people who can most afford it and are least affected by it go down. Does that seem right or fair or just to you?

And do not bother telling me I do not know what it is like to be poor. I grew up poor and wondering at times where my next meal was coming from. I mean that in a very literal sense I will spare you the walked 5 miles to school uphill both ways details, but trust me I have seen hard times. I chose to take advantage of opportunities that are out there and got past that. I am not saying we should not help those who need help we should, but this is not and should not be a life style and punishing those who chose to better themselves by using the tax code is wrong.

You're getting a little defensive there. I never said anything of the sort - but I do hope you can recognise that the opportunities you availed yourself of are not universal.

Glad to see I'm not the only one person who ignores the existence of Montenegro  :P
I stand corrected - they appear to be the lowest, at 9%. But... again, hardly known for being an economic powerhouse.
« Last Edit: June 03, 2013, 01:52:27 PM by Ephiral »

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Re: Economic Discussion of Minimum Wage Laws
« Reply #49 on: June 03, 2013, 02:02:02 PM »
No, I was actually perfectly serious.  I haven't sent an ambassador to Montenegro and refuse to take part in sporting competitions that acknowledge them.  That's why I wasn't in the Olympics.  But that's by the by.



Quote
Learn a trade, earn a living wage at that trade. Heck, I am all for the government paying to send you to trade school to learn that trade but get a job and be a productive member of society

This, to me, is where your argument starts to become inconsistent, Retribution.  That's a transfer payment just as much as anything you seem to object to.  It will end up (in the first instance) in money being taken from haves - taxpayers - and given to have nots - non-taxpayers.  Sure, it may or may not equal itself out eventually but I cant see why you support that sort of initiative but not a, functionally identical, raise in minimum wage.