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Author Topic: CNN Reports on the "Promising Future" of the Steubenville Rapists  (Read 11085 times)

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Offline Ephiral

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Re: CNN Reports on the "Promising Future" of the Steubenville Rapists
« Reply #400 on: April 04, 2013, 10:47:09 AM »
1) Moral rules can be even fuzzier than legalities. Everything tends to be situation, which makes for fun conversations, but not so great absolutes in right/wrong.
I'm an act utilitarian. What absolutes? I'm saying that this rule is a good idea, and spreading and following it will lead to less rape. Not that it is inflexible or will always lead to perfect situations.

2) I think there should be a distinction but there is a huge situational difference in two drunks being stupid and a sober person taking advantage of a drunk one. In the first, someone being hurt can be arguable, in the second the drunk person was clearly taken advantage of.
Mmm... not so much. If, after the fact, someone is hurt, then hurt was caused. If an action that you are going to take has a strong possibility of hurting another person and any alternative is less likely to cause pain (or equally likely to cause less pain), you need to take responsibility for it and either accept that you're being a horrible person, or not take that action. Drunkenness is not an excuse, it's a further example of your poor judgement.

Offline Healergirl

Re: CNN Reports on the "Promising Future" of the Steubenville Rapists
« Reply #401 on: April 04, 2013, 11:17:47 AM »
The willingness of the legal system to accept intoxication as a mitigating circumstance in criminal behavior has plummeted over the years. Just look at the way drunk drivers used to be treated compared to now.  And yes, it was once considered a mitigating factor if not officially, then informally in many other crimes.  Social acceptance of bad behavior while drunk has dropped as well.  People do not seem to drink as much as they used to  - not out in public, anyway.

Online Callie Del Noire

Re: CNN Reports on the "Promising Future" of the Steubenville Rapists
« Reply #402 on: April 04, 2013, 12:09:40 PM »
I have kept quiet for a long while after pointing out my own personal experiences in the military. I haven't seen a lot of rape by violence.. but a whole lot of date rape/rape with alcohol involved. I find it interesting the parallels between bullying and rape. Similar behaviors with a similar root ties. A lot to think on. The comments on what and when we should be educating our kids to stifle both were something to think on. All in all, a lot to think on. I've said my thoughts on the offenders list and what it needs to be reformed on. Too often it's being used as a weapon to get pleas rather than protecting the innocent.

In the end though..my outlook on the Steubenville Rapists hasn't changed. These kids raped a girl who was so totally out of it..she didn't recall ANY of it. They put her degradation up on social media, violated her repeatedly, and generally used her as a toy/trashcan rather than a human being. When I was their age, I went to a party with a bunch of friends, and during the night we found one of the girls passed out in the woods outside dead drunk. We put her in the recliner by the fire inside the cabin, took turns watching her while we had beers, drank PJ and generally did stupid teenager shit. We also were generally more human than the kids as we put a blanket over her as the fire burned down, kept a bottle of water for her when she woke up, and got two of the girls in the core group to walk her to the bathroom to be sick and help clean her up after. We weren't jocks and star athletes, we were a trio of geeks, a couple of metalheads, and two stoner guys. We were also basically fucking human. Of the eight of us that took time out of having a good time looking after the girl, five of us have kids, one died in service to our country, and the rest of are normal folks who haven't found the right person yet.

Those boys, and the ones who LET it happen, aren't worth the time to think on their 'destroyed' life. What if the girl had gotten pregnant? Or god forbid she'd gotten sick from alcohol poisoning or choked on her vomit. Would they have done the right thing and taken responsibility of her.. or seen her way to the hospital.

I shall shed no tears for them. My sympathy and empathy are for the victim. I got a lot of issues, pro and con, on the issue of rape.. but this seems fairly clean cut. The fucking media needs to stop pitying these boys and wonder what scars they left on the girl.

Offline Healergirl

Re: CNN Reports on the "Promising Future" of the Steubenville Rapists
« Reply #403 on: April 04, 2013, 12:20:15 PM »
Callie,

I agree completely.  I don't give a dead rat's ass about the ruined lives of the rapists.  Boo effing hoo.

Offline Caela

Re: CNN Reports on the "Promising Future" of the Steubenville Rapists
« Reply #404 on: April 04, 2013, 12:23:50 PM »
I have kept quiet for a long while after pointing out my own personal experiences in the military. I haven't seen a lot of rape by violence.. but a whole lot of date rape/rape with alcohol involved. I find it interesting the parallels between bullying and rape. Similar behaviors with a similar root ties. A lot to think on. The comments on what and when we should be educating our kids to stifle both were something to think on. All in all, a lot to think on. I've said my thoughts on the offenders list and what it needs to be reformed on. Too often it's being used as a weapon to get pleas rather than protecting the innocent.

In the end though..my outlook on the Steubenville Rapists hasn't changed. These kids raped a girl who was so totally out of it..she didn't recall ANY of it. They put her degradation up on social media, violated her repeatedly, and generally used her as a toy/trashcan rather than a human being. When I was their age, I went to a party with a bunch of friends, and during the night we found one of the girls passed out in the woods outside dead drunk. We put her in the recliner by the fire inside the cabin, took turns watching her while we had beers, drank PJ and generally did stupid teenager shit. We also were generally more human than the kids as we put a blanket over her as the fire burned down, kept a bottle of water for her when she woke up, and got two of the girls in the core group to walk her to the bathroom to be sick and help clean her up after. We weren't jocks and star athletes, we were a trio of geeks, a couple of metalheads, and two stoner guys. We were also basically fucking human. Of the eight of us that took time out of having a good time looking after the girl, five of us have kids, one died in service to our country, and the rest of are normal folks who haven't found the right person yet.

Those boys, and the ones who LET it happen, aren't worth the time to think on their 'destroyed' life. What if the girl had gotten pregnant? Or god forbid she'd gotten sick from alcohol poisoning or choked on her vomit. Would they have done the right thing and taken responsibility of her.. or seen her way to the hospital.

I shall shed no tears for them. My sympathy and empathy are for the victim. I got a lot of issues, pro and con, on the issue of rape.. but this seems fairly clean cut. The fucking media needs to stop pitying these boys and wonder what scars they left on the girl.

+1, totally agree.

Offline Ephiral

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Re: CNN Reports on the "Promising Future" of the Steubenville Rapists
« Reply #405 on: April 04, 2013, 12:25:46 PM »
Same here - the only reason they're even worthy of any spotlight time at all is as an example pour encourager les autres. I also think you've got a point on the weaponization of the sex-offender registries - they're well-intentioned but horribly misguided ideas that effectively shift the justice system another step away from actually rehabilitating anyone.

I think you're on to something re: bullying and rape as related symptoms of the same root cause, too. I know it would make a lot of the things I've seen and experienced make more sense. In short... *golf clap*

Online Callie Del Noire

Re: CNN Reports on the "Promising Future" of the Steubenville Rapists
« Reply #406 on: April 04, 2013, 12:33:16 PM »
Same here - the only reason they're even worthy of any spotlight time at all is as an example pour encourager les autres. I also think you've got a point on the weaponization of the sex-offender registries - they're well-intentioned but horribly misguided ideas that effectively shift the justice system another step away from actually rehabilitating anyone.

I think you're on to something re: bullying and rape as related symptoms of the same root cause, too. I know it would make a lot of the things I've seen and experienced make more sense. In short... *golf clap*

I got a BIG problem with the offenders list being used to cop pleas and pursue vendettas. I know people who got put on the list for public urination, one got put on it for being NAKED in his OWN house while the woman and child were trespassing through his yard. Too many parents use it as a way to break up their kid with someone they don't like. DAs use it as a club to ruin folks lives.

It needs reform. It needs a board of review. It needs someone to consider things a bit who isn't involved in his/her conviction rate or if his drinking buddy's kids might be dating folks from the wrong side of the tracks. It needs accountability. It makes it hard to track the true perverts when your limited manpower has to cover the public urinations and other stupid shit.

Offline Ephiral

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Re: CNN Reports on the "Promising Future" of the Steubenville Rapists
« Reply #407 on: April 04, 2013, 12:51:07 PM »
I got a BIG problem with the offenders list being used to cop pleas and pursue vendettas. I know people who got put on the list for public urination, one got put on it for being NAKED in his OWN house while the woman and child were trespassing through his yard. Too many parents use it as a way to break up their kid with someone they don't like. DAs use it as a club to ruin folks lives.

It needs reform. It needs a board of review. It needs someone to consider things a bit who isn't involved in his/her conviction rate or if his drinking buddy's kids might be dating folks from the wrong side of the tracks. It needs accountability. It makes it hard to track the true perverts when your limited manpower has to cover the public urinations and other stupid shit.
I'd go a step further: it needs abolition. I don't buy the argument that there are people so dangerous that their freedom must be heavily restricted, but not dangerous enough for incarceration or institutionalization. Doesn't work for the no-fly list, doesn't work here.

But then, I am very firmly and angrily committed to the justice system as a tool of rehabilitation rather than revenge. I seem to be in the minority, these days.

Offline Healergirl

Re: CNN Reports on the "Promising Future" of the Steubenville Rapists
« Reply #408 on: April 04, 2013, 01:02:30 PM »
Callie, Ephiral,

I agree with you both.  the sex offenders list is just.... wrong.  I don't see how a thing survives clsoe scrutiny - the examples Callie gave are not, alas rare.  the more people know abut who ends up on that list, the less they like it.   education is the key to getting rid of it.

Offline Caehlim

Re: CNN Reports on the "Promising Future" of the Steubenville Rapists
« Reply #409 on: April 05, 2013, 01:00:11 PM »
The fucking media needs to stop pitying these boys and wonder what scars they left on the girl.

I'd hope actually that they leave her alone. Particularly the shockjocks in the media. She doesn't need the media harping on about her experiences (unless she decides that it's what she wants or needs but that should be her call not TV producers).

One thing that the media should be covering is how much of a cover-up apparently existed, because that is just sick. We need to know about it and expose the mechanisms that allowed that to happen.

I'd go a step further: it needs abolition. I don't buy the argument that there are people so dangerous that their freedom must be heavily restricted, but not dangerous enough for incarceration or institutionalization. Doesn't work for the no-fly list, doesn't work here.

I agree 100%

Online Callie Del Noire

Re: CNN Reports on the "Promising Future" of the Steubenville Rapists
« Reply #410 on: April 05, 2013, 02:44:51 PM »
I'd hope actually that they leave her alone. Particularly the shockjocks in the media. She doesn't need the media harping on about her experiences (unless she decides that it's what she wants or needs but that should be her call not TV producers).

One thing that the media should be covering is how much of a cover-up apparently existed, because that is just sick. We need to know about it and expose the mechanisms that allowed that to happen.

I agree that the girl herself needs no scrutiny.. but I get tired of OMG! Those poor boys! BS..why not put up what they did.. then show how they tried to HIDE it after the fact. Maybe highlight the results of their actions.

Personally I wonder why the impact on the victims is usually not highlighted. Like the fact that scars, physical and mental, stay with them for years.


Offline Healergirl

Re: CNN Reports on the "Promising Future" of the Steubenville Rapists
« Reply #411 on: April 05, 2013, 05:06:04 PM »
Callie,

I suspect highlighting victim impact is uncomfortable to most people. It reminds them that in many cases, there but for the Grace of God go they.

Online Callie Del Noire

Re: CNN Reports on the "Promising Future" of the Steubenville Rapists
« Reply #412 on: April 05, 2013, 05:23:01 PM »
Callie,

I suspect highlighting victim impact is uncomfortable to most people. It reminds them that in many cases, there but for the Grace of God go they.

You know.. I don't care. I've seen friends who flinch every-time a guy of a certain build drops a book behind them. Or who won't wear short sleeves because of scars from suicide attempts. I listen to a friend talk about talking down someone they know from kiling themselves because of what they thought their family will think because of a would be assault was done by someone of a 'good family' from where they live.

I listen to the corpman friends I have tell me about how they feel so frustrated hearing about wives coming in beaten (and the occasional husband), ditto with other folks I know who are EMTs and Law enforcement.

A little reality might make the people realize there are effects beyond what happened to 'those poor boys'.

Offline Healergirl

Re: CNN Reports on the "Promising Future" of the Steubenville Rapists
« Reply #413 on: April 05, 2013, 05:33:12 PM »
Oh, I totally agree with you, Callie!  I didn't say it was right or just, that's just my opinion of why victim impact isn't highlighted.

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Re: CNN Reports on the "Promising Future" of the Steubenville Rapists
« Reply #414 on: April 05, 2013, 05:34:39 PM »
The real question is, are the victims willing to have those effects highlighted?

Offline Healergirl

Re: CNN Reports on the "Promising Future" of the Steubenville Rapists
« Reply #415 on: April 05, 2013, 06:40:00 PM »
Oniya, that is a very good point!

Offline ShadowFox89

Re: CNN Reports on the "Promising Future" of the Steubenville Rapists
« Reply #416 on: April 05, 2013, 07:05:42 PM »
The real question is, are the victims willing to have those effects highlighted?

 There's a lot of victim shaming that goes around, that keeps the victim from wanting it highlighted.

Online Valerian

Re: CNN Reports on the "Promising Future" of the Steubenville Rapists
« Reply #417 on: April 05, 2013, 09:22:27 PM »
Of course it's doubtful that a victim would want that sort of 'fame', but you wouldn't have to work it that way, either.  A good writer could do a lot with an amalgam of several anonymous cases -- not histories of specific victims, but rather compilations of details from various cases.  Done well, it could still have quite a bit of impact.  I'm sure it's been done, though I don't know of any particularly noteworthy instances offhand.

Offline gaggedLouise

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Re: CNN Reports on the "Promising Future" of the Steubenville Rapists
« Reply #418 on: April 05, 2013, 10:06:59 PM »
Of course it's doubtful that a victim would want that sort of 'fame', but you wouldn't have to work it that way, either.  A good writer could do a lot with an amalgam of several anonymous cases -- not histories of specific victims, but rather compilations of details from various cases.  Done well, it could still have quite a bit of impact.  I'm sure it's been done, though I don't know of any particularly noteworthy instances offhand.

Agree, but the media today want a poster kid for any issue that is to be brought into the light. If you're trying to highlight some troubling issue of schools, sexual abuse, work conditions/illness, poverty etc and it's not something that's undeniably a crime in itself or widely recognized already as a grave problem, the media will only work with you if you can provide someone who "puts a human face to the issue" - and a face the public can easily sympathize with. Best if said person will also do picture shoots and is able to handle occasional live tv appearances in a favourable way.

I think this poster child fixation is kind of debilitating to the whole way things are discussed, and more often than not it narrows the range or the time window of topics that can be brought up, but it's plain a big part of the media at present want it run that way.
« Last Edit: April 05, 2013, 10:20:32 PM by gaggedLouise »

Online Callie Del Noire

Re: CNN Reports on the "Promising Future" of the Steubenville Rapists
« Reply #419 on: April 06, 2013, 01:01:24 AM »
Of course it's doubtful that a victim would want that sort of 'fame', but you wouldn't have to work it that way, either.  A good writer could do a lot with an amalgam of several anonymous cases -- not histories of specific victims, but rather compilations of details from various cases.  Done well, it could still have quite a bit of impact.  I'm sure it's been done, though I don't know of any particularly noteworthy instances offhand.

This is sort of what I was thinking. Of using enough of these tragic cases to point out, compared to the average person, things like suicide, drug abuse and such. Show that rape has LASTING harm.

Offline consortium11

Re: CNN Reports on the "Promising Future" of the Steubenville Rapists
« Reply #420 on: April 06, 2013, 04:19:08 AM »
Except throwing a ball doesn't first require a safety decision. Before you even get to the stage of deciding whether or not they can maintain control of a vehicle, they first need to have decided that they will drive. (If they didn't, then you never have to make that decision, did you?) So regardless of how you look at it, you must first be saying "I do not trust your assessment of your own competence."

Again, this is looking at the question in different ways. If someone asked me "would you trust that person to drive" and indicated to someone else, I'd be making my decision based on what I perceived their ability to drive to be, not the basis of whether they would make a decision about driving. I'd in essence ignore the first part of the question.

Moreover, let's return to the original point.

If I go for a meal out with a significant other and over the course of the date start we both start with a cocktail, then split a bottle of wine, then finish off with an aperitif and maybe a few more drinks at the bar afterwards then I suspect everyone would say that we couldn't be trusted to drive... that's a fair amount of alcohol.

Does that then mean if we have sex later in the night that we have morally (although not legally) raped each other because neither of us were in a position to consent on account of the alcohol?

Offline Healergirl

Re: CNN Reports on the "Promising Future" of the Steubenville Rapists
« Reply #421 on: April 06, 2013, 06:50:16 AM »
Consortium11,
I take your oint.   If both of you wake up together naked, sticky and confused, It's hard to see that as rape.

Online Valerian

Re: CNN Reports on the "Promising Future" of the Steubenville Rapists
« Reply #422 on: April 06, 2013, 07:12:45 AM »
Agree, but the media today want a poster kid for any issue that is to be brought into the light. If you're trying to highlight some troubling issue of schools, sexual abuse, work conditions/illness, poverty etc and it's not something that's undeniably a crime in itself or widely recognized already as a grave problem, the media will only work with you if you can provide someone who "puts a human face to the issue" - and a face the public can easily sympathize with. Best if said person will also do picture shoots and is able to handle occasional live tv appearances in a favourable way.

I think this poster child fixation is kind of debilitating to the whole way things are discussed, and more often than not it narrows the range or the time window of topics that can be brought up, but it's plain a big part of the media at present want it run that way.
Well, it still wouldn't be a living, breathing person appearing on the local news, no, but let me explain a little more now that I'm more awake.  In several of my psych classes, we studied case histories covering the progression and treatment of various disorders, which, rather than being simply one person's story with the names changed, actually represented a dozen or so sets of case notes that had some basic similarities.

For instance, we might read a narrative about "Tom", a college student recently diagnosed with paranoid schizophrenia, which actually contained details from twenty cases of male college students with paranoid schizophrenia.  But it was still written out smoothly, as if it was only one person's experience -- it wasn't just a listing of what was likely to happen, or discussing the odds of a particular symptom, it was a story.  So in the cases of rape victims, one could collect two or three dozen anonymous case histories (from police files, therapists' records, etc.) of roughly similar assaults on people from roughly similar backgrounds and compile them all into a single narrative.  It wouldn't give a face to the problem, exactly, but done well it could still be something pretty powerful and memorable.

Offline Healergirl

Re: CNN Reports on the "Promising Future" of the Steubenville Rapists
« Reply #423 on: April 06, 2013, 07:22:53 AM »
valerian,

I think the approach you outline would be very effective -- but Big Media just dos not act and think that way.  The poster child approach i,, well, more flashy and easier to do.

Offline Ephiral

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Re: CNN Reports on the "Promising Future" of the Steubenville Rapists
« Reply #424 on: April 06, 2013, 08:45:20 AM »
Again, this is looking at the question in different ways. If someone asked me "would you trust that person to drive" and indicated to someone else, I'd be making my decision based on what I perceived their ability to drive to be, not the basis of whether they would make a decision about driving. I'd in essence ignore the first part of the question.
Whereas I would answer the question that is actually being asked, ie "Do you trust...", not "Do you think that person is capable of..."

Moreover, let's return to the original point.

If I go for a meal out with a significant other and over the course of the date start we both start with a cocktail, then split a bottle of wine, then finish off with an aperitif and maybe a few more drinks at the bar afterwards then I suspect everyone would say that we couldn't be trusted to drive... that's a fair amount of alcohol.

Does that then mean if we have sex later in the night that we have morally (although not legally) raped each other because neither of us were in a position to consent on account of the alcohol?
This one is hard to call, honestly. And I'm fine with that. Because it's a rule of thumb, not an absolute. The fact that there are edge cases in which it may or may not be applicable does nothing to invalidate its general utility. I can say I'd be feeling extremely uncomfortable if I found myself in such a situation, at the very least.
« Last Edit: April 06, 2013, 09:44:09 AM by Ephiral »