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Author Topic: Alternative Gender Pronouns: The Reboot  (Read 2894 times)

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Offline Missy

Re: Alternative Gender Pronouns: The Reboot
« Reply #75 on: March 19, 2013, 10:08:00 PM »
I personally think the Liege tag is pretty cool, I admire people who can be themselves and comfortable with it. Even if that is only in some places for some, I hope society will improve eventually. I think the best thing about the tag for me is that it makes me curious about gender identity theory, even if I am often too shy to ask and it ends up just being pushed onto a lost of things to do.

As for the original topic: I think the primary issue with third-gender pronouns comes from implementation. I would like to see them in action and I would use them out of support for the transgender community, but I don't see it coming to be for a while, at least not generally. No change worthwhile will ever happen overnight however, so just because it takes a while doesn't mean it shan't can't be done.

I also agree with Alice somewhat on her statements of gender. I'm personally of the opinion that the difference between genders, and especially cisgendered opposites, is overstated. Just as one point of evidence is I've met more than one transfemale individual whose into stereotypically male activities such as first person shooters or strategy games. This suggestion is also backed up by studies done having nothing to do with transgenderism in which adults were told an infant was a specific gender (not always the true or accurate gender) and then given a series of toy options to give them child based on his or her perceived gender. Generally the toy given was the stereotypically assigned item, the child ultimately followed what was given to him or her based on an adults impression and not actuality. The concept that most gendered behaviors are learned could be further supported by the fact that in most instances elementary aged children associate almost exclusively with members of their own gender. So I'm personally of the belief that many of our strongest held beliefs about gender are little more than the result of a social construct. I do honestly wonder if the roles were reversed, how persons of one cisgender or the other might react.

Offline Greytrail

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Re: Alternative Gender Pronouns: The Reboot
« Reply #76 on: March 19, 2013, 10:13:25 PM »
Your friend isn't the only one. For some of us, this is the first place we've ever felt comfortable just being completely out from day one. And I, for one, am forever appreciative that E's community and staff go to such great lengths to make that true.

And yeah, 10%? That's... wow. I wonder if E's community drives that number up, because my gut says it's way high for the population at large.
Hi, I'm TopCat's genderfluid friend and I've been reading the backlog of this discussion. Now, I don't always feel I have the words to get involved in conversations such as this, but this comment caught my eye. (and I'm not gonna stay quiet, dammit!) I haven't had a lot of nibbles for RPing at this site, but that's secondary to the Liege thing. It's very cool, freeing even to be able to experiment with oneself. (Not like that, you pervs. :)  I've lived long enough to grow resigned to the shape I was born to, but my imagination is a more comfortable place than the physical for me anyway. So, this forum is an excellent place for any sense of safety we that don't fit in could find. Yes, I've probably repeated things already said in this thread, but there's my take on it.

As for those that 'don't get it', I don't agree with you, but I understand you. You cannot know the aching discomfort with being disassociated with something so completely integral to the human experience as our sexuality and our very personal gender identity any more than I can know what I would have been like to indeed, be my mother's other son.

Offline Greytrail

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Re: Alternative Gender Pronouns: The Reboot
« Reply #77 on: March 19, 2013, 10:19:44 PM »
About this 10% thing? Years ago, my younger sister and I had a fascinating conversation about homosexuality as a biological modification to the human species. If it were a true mutation (same as our walking upright and have true thumbs) the numbers would be a solid 25%. That's always made me look around and wonder who the one in four were and what sort of world we could be if fear were less of a factor. As a younger entity, might I have had the freedom to try at least living LIKE a man? I wonder what sort of comfort that freedom would have brought me.

10%? No, I don't have any trouble believing that at all.

Offline Ephiral

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Re: Alternative Gender Pronouns: The Reboot
« Reply #78 on: March 19, 2013, 10:24:11 PM »
About this 10% thing? Years ago, my younger sister and I had a fascinating conversation about homosexuality as a biological modification to the human species. If it were a true mutation (same as our walking upright and have true thumbs) the numbers would be a solid 25%. That's always made me look around and wonder who the one in four were and what sort of world we could be if fear were less of a factor. As a younger entity, might I have had the freedom to try at least living LIKE a man? I wonder what sort of comfort that freedom would have brought me.

10%? No, I don't have any trouble believing that at all.
Well, current research points to gender-identity issues having nothing to do with genetics. It appears to be related to the dosages and timing of a fairly complex series of batches of prenatal hormones. So... that would drive the numbers down. And in my experience, the numbers who are willing to come to even a closed, secluded meeting are depressingly small. Then again, Veks might have had a point about people who aren't aware of it - that was the case with me for a depressingly long time.

Offline Greytrail

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Re: Alternative Gender Pronouns: The Reboot
« Reply #79 on: March 19, 2013, 10:34:56 PM »
Well, current research points to gender-identity issues having nothing to do with genetics. It appears to be related to the dosages and timing of a fairly complex series of batches of prenatal hormones. So... that would drive the numbers down. And in my experience, the numbers who are willing to come to even a closed, secluded meeting are depressingly small. Then again, Veks might have had a point about people who aren't aware of it - that was the case with me for a depressingly long time.
Ah, back to the old 'nature vs nurture' debate, eh? As for figuring out, I do agree that it is more psychology than biology. But the discussion with my sister was a good place to start.

Offline Vekseid

Re: Alternative Gender Pronouns: The Reboot
« Reply #80 on: March 19, 2013, 10:35:54 PM »
10% of -Elliquiy-, not of the general population. Mutations don't evenly distribute themselves - that's what natural selection is all about. Elliquiy is a place where we want you to feel actively accepted, even if we don't always meet that goal very well for various reasons. By the very nature of being non-normative people like you are more likely to seek out and find places like this.

Homosexuality being so common actually probably has more to do with homosexual behavior itself being attractive to mates. It's a transposed mutation - part of one chromosome hops to another - but it's ridiculously common considering how counterintuitive spreading it would be. Given I've met two lesbians who were open to the idea of trying things with me for a time, I do think there's something to suggest that homosexual behavior in humans thrives for the same reason it does in the animal kingdom.

Well, current research points to gender-identity issues having nothing to do with genetics. It appears to be related to the dosages and timing of a fairly complex series of batches of prenatal hormones. So... that would drive the numbers down. And in my experience, the numbers who are willing to come to even a closed, secluded meeting are depressingly small. Then again, Veks might have had a point about people who aren't aware of it - that was the case with me for a depressingly long time.

Met one transwoman who got outed to herself by a friend. It certainly happens.

Offline Ephiral

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Re: Alternative Gender Pronouns: The Reboot
« Reply #81 on: March 19, 2013, 10:38:06 PM »
Ah, back to the old 'nature vs nurture' debate, eh? As for figuring out, I do agree that it is more psychology than biology. But the discussion with my sister was a good place to start.
Oh, no - what I'm saying is that the cause of gender identity itself is biological - it has to do with the way the brain develops. It's just not genetic. Not a mutation, not hereditary. And that doesn't mean that any behaviour or preference we classify as 'masculine' or 'feminine' is inherent - that's pretty much pure social construct.

Offline Top Cat

Re: Alternative Gender Pronouns: The Reboot
« Reply #82 on: March 19, 2013, 10:38:50 PM »
Quote
Then again, Veks might have had a point about people who aren't aware of it - that was the case with me for a depressingly long time.
*nod* Greytrail is a friend of mine for over 20 years. When we first met, we were hormonal teenagers, and she was, at that time, a somewhat uncomfortable hetero female; I wasn't the only guy in our social circle who was carrying a torch for her. Some 5 years later, she found someone she could really connect with, and announced to all of her friends that she was gay. These days, she's still discovering her identity, and finds that she enjoys writing hetero smut with a male perspective. *shrug* For some people, it's as much a journey as a state of being.

(And yes, I'm writing about all of this with her permission)

For someone who is only aware of the concepts of male/female, straight/gay/bisexual, how would someone discover that they "feel" male in a female body? It's like trying to describe a symphony, when you haven't ever been exposed to music. You don't even have the concepts to work from, much less the words. And attempting to strike out into that unknown can be fucking terrifying. For some, it's better to stick with a "safe" label, even if it's not really a comfortable fit.

Offline Ephiral

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Re: Alternative Gender Pronouns: The Reboot
« Reply #83 on: March 19, 2013, 10:40:05 PM »
Met one transwoman who got outed to herself by a friend. It certainly happens.
Yeah, I got outed to myself while doing research to support a trans friend. When I came out to my friends, the general consensus was "This isn't news, but it's nice to have a word for it."

Offline Greytrail

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Re: Alternative Gender Pronouns: The Reboot
« Reply #84 on: March 19, 2013, 10:43:01 PM »
Oh, no - what I'm saying is that the cause of gender identity itself is biological - it has to do with the way the brain develops. It's just not genetic. Not a mutation, not hereditary. And that doesn't mean that any behaviour or preference we classify as 'masculine' or 'feminine' is inherent - that's pretty much pure social construct.
Right, that makes more sense than what I said. Word choices can make me sound... muddy sometimes. But better to speak than be silent, eh?

Offline Greytrail

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Re: Alternative Gender Pronouns: The Reboot
« Reply #85 on: March 19, 2013, 10:49:22 PM »
*nod* Greytrail is a friend of mine for over 20 years. When we first met, we were hormonal teenagers, and she was, at that time, a somewhat uncomfortable hetero female; I wasn't the only guy in our social circle who was carrying a torch for her. Some 5 years later, she found someone she could really connect with, and announced to all of her friends that she was gay. These days, she's still discovering her identity, and finds that she enjoys writing hetero smut with a male perspective. *shrug* For some people, it's as much a journey as a state of being.

(And yes, I'm writing about all of this with her permission)

For someone who is only aware of the concepts of male/female, straight/gay/bisexual, how would someone discover that they "feel" male in a female body? It's like trying to describe a symphony, when you haven't ever been exposed to music. You don't even have the concepts to work from, much less the words. And attempting to strike out into that unknown can be fucking terrifying. For some, it's better to stick with a "safe" label, even if it's not really a comfortable fit.
Yes indeed, he asked. And I like your description in that final paragraph even better than mine! My resigned attitude to what I was born as is simply my way of coping. even if I won the lottery and could get gender reassigned, it would still be only skin deep. But who knows? Maybe it would be worth it. And that statement ONLY applies to me.

Offline DarklingAlice

Re: Alternative Gender Pronouns: The Reboot
« Reply #86 on: March 19, 2013, 11:09:08 PM »
And yeah, 10%? That's... wow. I wonder if E's community drives that number up, because my gut says it's way high for the population at large.

It's probably higher in the general population than you think. Maybe not 10%...but still. The thing is, again: how often does it really come up? And how poor of sample groups are our IRL social circles? I think we can safely say that the demographic studies low-ball it because for every alternately gendered person willing to be open about it there are probably two who can't.

About this 10% thing? Years ago, my younger sister and I had a fascinating conversation about homosexuality as a biological modification to the human species. If it were a true mutation (same as our walking upright and have true thumbs) the numbers would be a solid 25%. That's always made me look around and wonder who the one in four were and what sort of world we could be if fear were less of a factor. As a younger entity, might I have had the freedom to try at least living LIKE a man? I wonder what sort of comfort that freedom would have brought me.

10%? No, I don't have any trouble believing that at all.

It's an interesting conversation, but there are nonmendelian inheritance patterns with multiple levels of penetrance. Not that sexuality or gender identity is genetic.

Oh, no - what I'm saying is that the cause of gender identity itself is biological - it has to do with the way the brain develops. It's just not genetic. Not a mutation, not hereditary. And that doesn't mean that any behaviour or preference we classify as 'masculine' or 'feminine' is inherent - that's pretty much pure social construct.

Only a portion of the behaviors that contribute to what is called 'gender identity' (if that...research is sketchy) comes from hormonal exposure in the womb. It's how that meshes with societal constructs that matters and I am willing to bet that there are biologically normal males who are trans* for social reasons alone. Also things can be hereditary without being genetic mutations. Worth noting.

*goes off to try to replace her biology circuits before overload*

Offline Ephiral

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Re: Alternative Gender Pronouns: The Reboot
« Reply #87 on: March 19, 2013, 11:13:17 PM »
Alice, you never cease to be intriguing and insightful and give me something to think about. Sorry for mangling your discipline.  :-[

Offline DarklingAlice

Re: Alternative Gender Pronouns: The Reboot
« Reply #88 on: March 19, 2013, 11:26:53 PM »
No sorry. I'm mainly just being a pedant. The point is that biological essentialism is almost never an appropriate explanation. Though it is often an expedient one for political purposes. It's far easier to pretend that sexuality and gendered behavior are inborn and thus not subject to choice than it is to understand that we are the sum of countless biochemical processes contextualized by our own individual life into a poorly understood conscious 'I' that can't simply choose to change its nature at a whim. It's just not, strictly, true. But if it helps to think about it that way it's not entirely wrong and I could just keep my mouth shut.

It's really similar to how HDL and LDL are not in fact any kind of sterol yet everyone will persist in calling them 'good' and 'bad' cholesterol. It's not true, but it's easier to understand than the truth and also will lead to similar decisions as knowing the truth.

Offline Ephiral

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Re: Alternative Gender Pronouns: The Reboot
« Reply #89 on: March 19, 2013, 11:45:38 PM »
Please don't apologise or shut up! I, at least, think it's pretty important to have a map of reality that has as much bearing on the territory as I can muster. It's never going to be perfect, of course, and sometimes it'll be easier to talk about things in simpler terms - but it's always good to be able to think about them accurately, at the very least. So thank you.

Offline Greytrail

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Re: Alternative Gender Pronouns: The Reboot
« Reply #90 on: March 20, 2013, 12:35:53 AM »
Please don't apologise or shut up! I, at least, think it's pretty important to have a map of reality that has as much bearing on the territory as I can muster. It's never going to be perfect, of course, and sometimes it'll be easier to talk about things in simpler terms - but it's always good to be able to think about them accurately, at the very least. So thank you.
I agree. Talking things out is always a good thing!

Offline Top Cat

Re: Alternative Gender Pronouns: The Reboot
« Reply #91 on: March 20, 2013, 01:43:27 AM »
No sorry. I'm mainly just being a pedant. The point is that biological essentialism is almost never an appropriate explanation. Though it is often an expedient one for political purposes. It's far easier to pretend that sexuality and gendered behavior are inborn and thus not subject to choice than it is to understand that we are the sum of countless biochemical processes contextualized by our own individual life into a poorly understood conscious 'I' that can't simply choose to change its nature at a whim. It's just not, strictly, true. But if it helps to think about it that way it's not entirely wrong and I could just keep my mouth shut.
It's really similar to how HDL and LDL are not in fact any kind of sterol yet everyone will persist in calling them 'good' and 'bad' cholesterol. It's not true, but it's easier to understand than the truth and also will lead to similar decisions as knowing the truth.
I had a fairly long, elaborate post written, but upon reading it, I realized that it was rambling and didn't really get to a point... and the way I was stating things could be badly misinterpreted. =>_<=
I'll just point out that suggesting that choice has no role in sexuality* is just as misguided as saying that you can simply choose to be gay, straight, etc. Some of it is wiring (biochemistry), but some of it is choice. It's just not one single choice, but a tightly woven array of past choices, not easily undone.

For a (safe-ish) example, there are women out there who like the aesthetic appeal of the female body, but identify as heterosexual, because the choices they've made have turned them away from considering other women as sexual partners. The right circumstances could put such a woman in a position to actively make that consideration, and decide to act on it, either for themselves or for the pleasure of a chosen partner.

Which just goes back to what several people have already said - that the dichotomy of straight/gay is only useful for basic discussion, and is a false dichotomy when talking more broadly.

* And I know that you're not saying that, Alice, but it seemed a point that needed to be made, and is often disregarded, either implicitly or explicitly, in discussions about sexuality and choice.
« Last Edit: March 20, 2013, 01:44:29 AM by Top Cat »

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Re: Alternative Gender Pronouns: The Reboot
« Reply #92 on: March 20, 2013, 01:29:26 PM »
*slips in and tacks up a link*

Basically an article about some young kids who have invented a third person pronoun for their gender non-conforming friend.

Edit: Wrong article, need to find that one, but still an interesting article on kids and third person pronouns...
« Last Edit: March 20, 2013, 01:34:52 PM by Doncamiel »

Offline Ephiral

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Re: Alternative Gender Pronouns: The Reboot
« Reply #93 on: March 20, 2013, 01:37:54 PM »
Yo... haven't heard that one before, but I like it. Rolls off the tongue, cases are easy (due to mostly not existing)... it works.

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Re: Alternative Gender Pronouns: The Reboot
« Reply #94 on: March 20, 2013, 08:35:55 PM »
Some of the comments were actually interesting, too - which I always find surprising on many blog sites, sorry to say.

One suggested that it might have derived from a singularizing of 'y'all' (dropping the 'all' part), and another suggested that it might have derived from generically naming the unknown individual 'Joe' - one of several names that has an ambiguous gender in common speech (short for Joseph or Josephine, although the feminine form drops the silent 'e').

Offline Missy

Re: Alternative Gender Pronouns: The Reboot
« Reply #95 on: March 21, 2013, 12:03:05 PM »
Some of the comments were actually interesting, too - which I always find surprising on many blog sites, sorry to say.

One suggested that it might have derived from a singularizing of 'y'all' (dropping the 'all' part), and another suggested that it might have derived from generically naming the unknown individual 'Joe' - one of several names that has an ambiguous gender in common speech (short for Joseph or Josephine, although the feminine form drops the silent 'e').

I very much doubt that my point of view in any way represents the majority, friends often describe me as 'independent'. I always thought "Joe" implied masculine and "Jo" feminine, no idea if that represents the majority consensus or not.

Just my random thought for the day, of course you're all expected to agree with me on that, when it come to matters pertaining to the earth: I intend to rule it! :P

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Re: Alternative Gender Pronouns: The Reboot
« Reply #96 on: March 21, 2013, 12:09:18 PM »
I very much doubt that my point of view in any way represents the majority, friends often describe me as 'independent'. I always thought "Joe" implied masculine and "Jo" feminine, no idea if that represents the majority consensus or not.

Just my random thought for the day, of course you're all expected to agree with me on that, when it come to matters pertaining to the earth: I intend to rule it! :P

In text, yes.  In speech, the two are indistinguishable.  Just like you can't tell Chris(topher) from Kris(tina).

Offline Valerian

Re: Alternative Gender Pronouns: The Reboot
« Reply #97 on: March 21, 2013, 01:34:31 PM »
Although in Charles Dickens' Bleak House, there is a male character whose name is spelled Jo.  Your literary trivia for the day.  ;D

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Re: Alternative Gender Pronouns: The Reboot
« Reply #98 on: March 21, 2013, 01:36:39 PM »
Although in Charles Dickens' Bleak House, there is a male character whose name is spelled Jo.  Your literary trivia for the day.  ;D

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Re: Alternative Gender Pronouns: The Reboot
« Reply #99 on: March 21, 2013, 03:43:53 PM »
Not to mention Kim, Lee, Lou, Tony/Toni and Robin.