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Author Topic: To Drone or NOT to Drone?  (Read 3735 times)

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Offline Callie Del Noire

Re: To Drone or NOT to Drone?
« Reply #25 on: February 23, 2013, 09:08:10 AM »
It has been said once and it will be said again.

"Technology is outpacing our ability to regulate it."

A mere FOUR years ago I got offered a job to go out and service military drones in one of FIVE sit within the US that the military could fly them out off. Another job I applied for was to work with Blackwater on their border surveillance blimp UAV.

Today there is talk about putting next gen hand sized drones controlled by tablets into the hands of the police in some jurisdictions.

Tomorrow? Who knows.

Should there be concrete rules on UAV surveillance? Definitely. Will there be? Who knows.  It is getting harder and harder to keep oversight of some tools. 

Used to be that protecting the rights of the public and the phrase 'innocent till proven guilty' was the guideline. Expedience and post-9/11 fear mongering has whittled at our right to privacy, protections and civil liberties. A lot of folks have said a lot of things about it pro or con.

Me? I think rules and definite boundaries need to be set. What is justified against a pedophile or drug lord today can be used as a reason against YOU tomorrow because you are: a member of the wrong party, ethnicity, go to the wrong website or any other justification. 


Consider this. In some jurisdictions it is illegal to record a law officer in the commission of his duties BUT they can record you and provide evidence 'edited' to try YOU with. I recall this because a few years back one savvy kid had a full on video rig set up to record his dash to prove he wasn't speeding after a few tickets. He got stopped and harassed by a highway patrolman. Where was the troopers footage? 'Lost'.


« Last Edit: February 23, 2013, 09:12:09 AM by Callie Del Noire »

Offline elone

Re: To Drone or NOT to Drone?
« Reply #26 on: February 23, 2013, 10:48:05 AM »
Elone, I can honestly tell you need to hear this.

Relax.

So far, we have one case, a case where a sheriff only used the drones to locate known criminals, something I think we all want them to be used for. They didn't kill citizens with them inside the US border. They didn't spy into innocent civilian's homes. They didn't do anything that couldn't have been done with a helicopter with a camera attached to it.

Human on drone violence. That's cute. Um, ya what the animal-right's group did was illegal and yes I am sure that someone with an RC toy that comes with or had a camera attached to it has used it to spy on people. And no one raised a fuss then. The only difference is that we all have this image stuck in our heads of these war machines the military uses rather than the machines the police use that are actually a tenth of the size of those if that!

Actually in the first instance the police used an Air Force predator, not what you referred to in the second paragraph.

In addition, I don't know that it is illegal for the animal rights group to observe a hunt. It may have been illegal to shoot down their drone. As Callie said, "Technology is outpacing our ability to regulate it"

As for relaxing, I am, but obviously you have not been around long enough or just dismiss the myriad of abuses of power that our government and police have perpetrated on citizens over the years. Do you really trust in these people to do the right thing and be open and honest with their dealings with the public. Hell  I guess that is why people have to go to the freedom of information act to get things they try to hide on a regular basis.

Offline MonfangTopic starter

Re: To Drone or NOT to Drone?
« Reply #27 on: February 23, 2013, 01:05:11 PM »
Elone, I think the fact that they passed the Freedom of Information ACT proves they want to do their best for those they represent. It's an Act of Congress that was started by the House, supported by the Senate, signed by the President and backed up by the Supreme Court. If you are so scared of the Government, why are you using something that more than 2/3's of it started?

The only reason why technology is outpacing government is because The People haven't taken action to educate their Representatives. When was the last time you sent a letter to your Congressman or Senator or to the President about these issues? When was the last time you took time to educate them on what is going on? Have you ever? They are there to Represent us, but unless the People keep a close watch on those who do represent them, then they will Represent themselves.

The Native American issue is one that will have to be discussed in another thread. Not here.

Now you speak of the Sheriff using a Preditor class War Drone. Do you not think that he would have used something smaller and designed for just hunting for criminals, he would have used it? These small drones will be the go to machines for police when they need to hunt for criminals. They can be stashed in trunks, controlled from the passenger seat while another officer drives. These aren't war machines but cameras attached to helicopter rotors. There is no evidence for what ya'll claim of. All of this is hearsay and panicking over horror stories we are being fed.

The Police recording issue will have be addressed in another thread, not here.

Can there be individual cases of abuses? Of course. You give a man a reach at power and he will show his true colors. Some men step up and use it for good, others let it drag them down to evil. But we do not punished the good along with the bad. We find the bad cases, we weed the out, we let the good do their jobs and their duty. I don't know what caused you to hold such mistrust of people who take up an occupation where they could die any day. Even ona simple traffic stop.

Traffic Stop Goes wrong old man with an assault rifle kills two officers 1999 footage

Attempted Murder of Police Officer During Traffic Stop

Dashcam Ark Police Officer Shot Dead by Angry Gunman During Routine Traffic Stop.

Everything that I hear about cops becoming cops to abuse power is foolishness. These men and women put their lives on the line to keep order and let us know that we can go outside and not be afraid of being killed. Yet you spit on them and on the graves of those who have fallen.

Do you have no shame?

Offline Scribbles

Re: To Drone or NOT to Drone?
« Reply #28 on: February 23, 2013, 01:23:15 PM »
I think the fact that they passed the Freedom of Information ACT proves they want to do their best for those they represent.

I just had to wiggle in here as I've witnessed the (in)effectiveness of such Acts in multiple countries. It's certainly a nice gesture to have a small piece of paper proclaiming your right to know what the government is up to, but getting that piece of paper to carry any weight is like pulling teeth. You'll normally be drowned beneath a mountain of nonsense, ranging from national "security" to convenient bureaucratic delays, and if that isn't bad enough, there's always the drawn out legal battle to look forward to. It's annoying but more often than not such acts are passed to simply give the impression of doing good, rather than actually doing any good.

Offline MonfangTopic starter

Re: To Drone or NOT to Drone?
« Reply #29 on: February 23, 2013, 01:28:36 PM »
I just had to wiggle in here as I've witnessed the (in)effectiveness of such Acts in multiple countries. It's certainly a nice gesture to have a small piece of paper proclaiming your right to know what the government is up to, but getting that piece of paper to carry any weight is like pulling teeth. You'll normally be drowned beneath a mountain of nonsense, ranging from national "security" to convenient bureaucratic delays, and if that isn't bad enough, there's always the drawn out legal battle to look forward to. It's annoying but more often than not such acts are passed to simply give the impression of doing good, rather than actually doing any good.
Would you rather they do nothing?

I've seen this act lead to a lot of discoveries. I never once heard of a case where it was deny'd.

Offline Scribbles

Re: To Drone or NOT to Drone?
« Reply #30 on: February 23, 2013, 02:23:01 PM »
Would you rather they do nothing?

That's a strange question... If nothing is the opposite of working their butts off to conceal information, then yes, I'd rather they do nothing. Personally, I don't think it's enough to simply pass a bill, for me that's nothing more than a pretty gesture. It's what happens afterwards, when the bill is tested, that I consider whether government is following through or not.

Quote
I've seen this act lead to a lot of discoveries. I never once heard of a case where it was deny'd.

Depending on which country you mean, outright refusal might be considered illegal, although I've seen it denied in plenty of places, mostly in an a round about manner. If you mean the US then I believe redactions are the flavour of the day, although they do tend to have more success with their FOIA. However, I think that's thanks to the sheer stubborness of some people/organisations as well as their particular legal system rather than a helpful government.
« Last Edit: February 23, 2013, 03:02:20 PM by Scribbles »

Offline MonfangTopic starter

Re: To Drone or NOT to Drone?
« Reply #31 on: February 23, 2013, 03:15:51 PM »
Redactions are usually to protect national secrets such as names of operatives, military secrets, or secrets that other countries share with us.

Offline Scribbles

Re: To Drone or NOT to Drone?
« Reply #32 on: February 23, 2013, 03:34:38 PM »
Redactions are usually to protect national secrets such as names of operatives, military secrets, or secrets that other countries share with us.

"Usually" but they're often misused to hide a lot more under the guise of national security.

Offline MonfangTopic starter

Re: To Drone or NOT to Drone?
« Reply #33 on: February 23, 2013, 03:41:44 PM »
"Usually" but they're often misused to hide a lot more under the guise of national security.
I would like to hear of your evidence, but we are getting off topic.

Is there any reason to not give police tools to help protect citizens aside from the failings a few members?

Offline Scribbles

Re: To Drone or NOT to Drone?
« Reply #34 on: February 23, 2013, 04:00:24 PM »
I would like to hear of your evidence, but we are getting off topic.

Easy enough to give an answer without going off topic. For the USA, visit the American Civil Liberties Union website (www.aclu.org). It has so much evidence of the US's abuse of national security, it isn't funny.

On the topic at hand...

For now, I'm actually in favour of the use of drones but only if regulated properly. We've already armed our police with deadly weapons and trust them (or not) enough with that responsibility, so I don't see the harm in giving them a flying camera. It sounds like it would perform the same operation as a helicopter.

Offline MonfangTopic starter

Re: To Drone or NOT to Drone?
« Reply #35 on: February 23, 2013, 04:02:28 PM »
For now, I'm actually in favour of the use of drones but only if regulated properly. We've already armed our police with deadly weapons and trust them (or not) enough with that responsibility, so I don't see the harm in giving them a flying camera. It sounds like it would perform the same operation as a helicopter.
That's all they are. Mini-unmanned helicopters. It won't do anything that a police copter wouldn't do already aside from it being smaller.

Offline Skynet

Re: To Drone or NOT to Drone?
« Reply #36 on: February 23, 2013, 08:53:24 PM »
There's a relevant YouTube clip from a source I respect and trust.  LiberalViewer, a guy who discusses political and legal issues.  He's an ACLU lawyer, and he discusses the potential ramifications for drone warfare.

Limits on Obama's Flying Killer Robots?

Offline MonfangTopic starter

Re: To Drone or NOT to Drone?
« Reply #37 on: February 23, 2013, 09:17:26 PM »
LiberalViewer.. a lawyer for the ACLU.. Right.

Skynet, I'm sorry. But none of that has to do with this. As I explained in my original post, we are not talking about war machines. we are talking about small drones for surveillance, search and rescue and other services I can not think of at the moment.

Offline elone

Re: To Drone or NOT to Drone?
« Reply #38 on: February 23, 2013, 11:18:41 PM »
Elone, I think the fact that they passed the Freedom of Information ACT proves they want to do their best for those they represent. It's an Act of Congress that was started by the House, supported by the Senate, signed by the President and backed up by the Supreme Court. If you are so scared of the Government, why are you using something that more than 2/3's of it started?

The only reason why technology is outpacing government is because The People haven't taken action to educate their Representatives. When was the last time you sent a letter to your Congressman or Senator or to the President about these issues? When was the last time you took time to educate them on what is going on? Have you ever? They are there to Represent us, but unless the People keep a close watch on those who do represent them, then they will Represent themselves.

The Native American issue is one that will have to be discussed in another thread. Not here.

Now you speak of the Sheriff using a Preditor class War Drone. Do you not think that he would have used something smaller and designed for just hunting for criminals, he would have used it? These small drones will be the go to machines for police when they need to hunt for criminals. They can be stashed in trunks, controlled from the passenger seat while another officer drives. These aren't war machines but cameras attached to helicopter rotors. There is no evidence for what ya'll claim of. All of this is hearsay and panicking over horror stories we are being fed.

The Police recording issue will have be addressed in another thread, not here.

Can there be individual cases of abuses? Of course. You give a man a reach at power and he will show his true colors. Some men step up and use it for good, others let it drag them down to evil. But we do not punished the good along with the bad. We find the bad cases, we weed the out, we let the good do their jobs and their duty. I don't know what caused you to hold such mistrust of people who take up an occupation where they could die any day. Even ona simple traffic stop.

Everything that I hear about cops becoming cops to abuse power is foolishness. These men and women put their lives on the line to keep order and let us know that we can go outside and not be afraid of being killed. Yet you spit on them and on the graves of those who have fallen.

Do you have no shame?

I suppose I should not even reply to this since you seem to have taken this beyond the topic and are getting personal. However, just for your information, I have written many letters to my representatives and even gotten a reply from the President (probably robosigned but still nice).

I have yet to find anywhere that I mentioned people joining the police force for the purpose of abusing power. Your words, not mine.

I do mistrust government on many levels, and perhaps when you are mature enough to think for yourself you may as well. However, since you have no idea of my personal views on the police, it is a long and unwarranted step to say I spit on them and have no shame. That sort of tactic is not welcome on Elliquiy and you should be aware of it. For your information, I have served my country, and carried a badge in that capacity, so don't pretend to tell me about respect for law enforcement.

All of which has nothing to do with drones and their use by government within our borders. As you said "You give a man a reach at power and he will show his true colors." Why give them that opportunity.
« Last Edit: February 23, 2013, 11:45:11 PM by elone »

Offline MonfangTopic starter

Re: To Drone or NOT to Drone?
« Reply #39 on: February 23, 2013, 11:35:06 PM »
I suppose I should not even reply to this since you seem to have taken this beyond the topic and are getting personal. However, just for your information, I have written many letters to my representatives and even gotten a reply from the President (probably robosigned but still nice).

I have yet to find anywhere that I mentioned people joining the police force for the purpose of abusing power. Your words, not mine.

I do mistrust government on many levels, and perhaps when you are mature enough to think for yourself you may as well. However, since you have no idea of my personal views on the police, it is a long and unwarranted step to say I spit on them and have no shame. That sort of tactic is not welcome on Elliquiy and you should be aware of it. For your information, I have served my country, and once carried a badge, so don't pretend to tell me about respect for law enforcement.

All of which has nothing to do with drones and their use by government within our borders. As you said "You give a man a reach at power and he will show his true colors." Why give them that opportunity.
First off, thank you for your service both on the battlefield and on protecting our streets. You are right, I allowed my emotions to get the best of me. All I want is to give the police the best tools they need to insure that both they are able to do their jobs and can come home safely.

The cases we have found of abuse of power are commonly of individuals and they are quickly stopped. Yes, there are cases of individual departments in cities like New York and Chicago turning corrupt, they should be taken as individual  and unique cases and not as a sign of a problem on the whole.

Offline elone

Re: To Drone or NOT to Drone?
« Reply #40 on: February 24, 2013, 12:23:10 AM »
As I stated, I am not opposed to drones being used for search and rescue etc. It is also not the police that I fear using this technology for legitimate law enforcement purposes. I did sit on a jury once and had a fire marshall testify to observing a suspect start a fire when in fact in his position at the time his view of the alleged crime was blocked by a building. Two others did see it, and videos did show the crime, but he could not possibly have seen it. Prosecutors are particularly good at hiding exculpatory evidence as well. I am digressing, sorry.

However, I do see government corruption as an endemic part of our nation (look at the influence of lobbyists, legal bribery, and look at our justice department and their record).  I have no doubt that they would find a way to use drones in an inappropriate manner. We are just testing the waters with this technology and we need to tread carefully before we allow this type of surveillance to go forward. Here is the 4th amendment:

"The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized."

I would think that at some point in the future this will be a decision to be made by the Supreme Court as to whether or not drone surveillance  constitutes a search. Probably not, since they use video now, but it may depend on the circumstance and use of the drone.

Do we all want to be safe, of course, but at what cost to our freedom?


Offline MonfangTopic starter

Re: To Drone or NOT to Drone?
« Reply #41 on: February 24, 2013, 12:28:21 AM »
You have many a good point, Elone.

While I doubt that corruption is as wide spread and deep seeded as some say, I do agree there are forces in place that seek to push an agenda and some can do real harm. Technology is growing in leaps and bounds, as someone else in the thread suggested, and laws are having a hard time keeping up.

I believe I need to shift my position. Perhaps it would be best to slow down on the introduction of drones into the public security sector. At least until they can get a long and serious look and our laws updated so that they are better controlled.

Offline elone

Re: To Drone or NOT to Drone?
« Reply #42 on: February 24, 2013, 01:09:15 AM »
Of course we have been talking about the public security sector.

What the hell are we going to do when we are surveilled by the private sector using this technology?

This is going to be an interesting future.

Offline MonfangTopic starter

Re: To Drone or NOT to Drone?
« Reply #43 on: February 24, 2013, 01:13:14 AM »
I already brought up the little RC toys that come with 'spy cameras' on them. There are larger versions which wouldn't be too hard to stick a camera on and from what I saw, you could build most of these drones in your garage. It will be an interesting future indeed.

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Re: To Drone or NOT to Drone?
« Reply #44 on: February 24, 2013, 10:45:56 AM »
Of course we have been talking about the public security sector.

What the hell are we going to do when we are surveilled by the private sector using this technology?

This is going to be an interesting future.

In the case of the neighbor (or their kids) spying with RC cameras, I suspect that a simple signal jammer (i.e., closer and stronger tunable remote) and confiscation of their over-priced peeper would be a start.

Offline elone

Re: To Drone or NOT to Drone?
« Reply #45 on: February 24, 2013, 12:31:24 PM »
In the case of the neighbor (or their kids) spying with RC cameras, I suspect that a simple signal jammer (i.e., closer and stronger tunable remote) and confiscation of their over-priced peeper would be a start.

But what about say a private investigator or perhaps anti abortion folks flying over a clinic taking pictures of those who go in and out?

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Re: To Drone or NOT to Drone?
« Reply #46 on: February 24, 2013, 12:49:24 PM »
Same basic thing - at least, that's how I'd deal with it.  What you'll find as the incidence of 'snooping' tech increases is an increase in 'anti-snooping' tech.  People concerned about their privacy (which is a large market) will demand such a thing, and there will be people who see that as an opportunity to make a buck.  Kind of a cold reality, but I can see it happening quite easily.

Alternatively, there is the pigeon-hunter's method.  Jamming tech is just a lot quieter.

Offline MonfangTopic starter

Re: To Drone or NOT to Drone?
« Reply #47 on: February 24, 2013, 12:57:10 PM »
You mean like the increase in the effectiveness of armor in relation to the increase in effectiveness of weapons, Oniya?

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Re: To Drone or NOT to Drone?
« Reply #48 on: February 24, 2013, 01:05:19 PM »
Essentially.  As hackers got better at infiltrating computers, we saw better programs written to keep them out.  As virus-writers got better at creating malware, we've seen better anti-malware software.  As bacteria evolve to resist antibiotics, we've seen chemists work on better ways of killing them (both before and after they enter the body).  Although, you can still wreak havoc on someone with high-end night-vision goggles with nothing more than an old-style camera flash.  >:)

Offline MonfangTopic starter

Re: To Drone or NOT to Drone?
« Reply #49 on: February 24, 2013, 01:10:59 PM »
Essentially.  As hackers got better at infiltrating computers, we saw better programs written to keep them out.  As virus-writers got better at creating malware, we've seen better anti-malware software.  As bacteria evolve to resist antibiotics, we've seen chemists work on better ways of killing them (both before and after they enter the body).  Although, you can still wreak havoc on someone with high-end night-vision goggles with nothing more than an old-style camera flash.  >:)
Well, the police can't have criminals get their hands on systems to counter their equipment? It is why weapons and armor are regulated. People might be able to buy or make their own mini-jammers, but just like the systems that can detect speed traps or get into police radios, I think they would be illegal in different states.