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Author Topic: The idolizing of a cop-killer.  (Read 1256 times)

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Offline Caehlim

Re: The idolizing of a cop-killer.
« Reply #25 on: February 15, 2013, 08:09:42 AM »
Because people focus on the 'bad apples' like Mark Fuhrman's use of the 'N-word' or the the Rodney King beating, and ignore the people that quietly do the best job that they can do.

This is true, however in many of the 'bad apple' cases there have been signs that there is a culture of covering up and sticking up for your fellow officers even when you know that they're in the wrong. I certainly don't believe that this is the case for all, or even many of the police officers but there have often been people in positions of authority who have permitted, abetted or even encouraged these abuses to occur.

(For the record, I know nothing about the LAPD. I'm thinking more of some of the corruption scandals in the Victorian and New South Wales police forces over here back in the 70s and 80s and what subsequent investigations have revealed).

On the other hand as you say there are many responsible and dedicated people serving in law enforcement who are unfairly tarnished by this reputation. I have a lot of respect for the ideals of the police, this is what makes it such a disappointment to me when corruption and scandals exist within the police force.

Offline Brittany

Re: The idolizing of a cop-killer.
« Reply #26 on: February 15, 2013, 10:23:44 AM »
There was a man in the United Kingdom recently, Raul Moat.

He was one of these people who had a bit of a dodgy background, nightclub bouncer and a history, and as such the police used to pester him and make his life difficult.  This is kind of common in the UK.  Then his ex girlfriend dated a policeman and bragged about it, knowing he hated the police, and generally to make him feel small.

He went and shot her, and the policeman, then knowing he was in trouble, shot another policeman and took out his eye.  The result was quite a large undercurrent of support for him.  Facebook tributes, messages, a shrine.   The term "legend" was thrown around a lot.  That policeman could never understand that while the majority of sympathy was for him, there was also sympathy for Moat, and eventually killed himself.  The press were really nasty to anyone who sympathised with Moat, but the press were hated at this time for scandals, so that seemed to grow the support.  It was as though people felt they were sticking it up to the establishment by supporting him.  Lots of people blamed his ex girlfriend rather than him too.  Around the same time, a man Derek Bird did a similar thing, but killing taxi drivers instead of cops.  He was met with hatred and scorn.  Yet people were fine with Moat killing police.  I heard someone in a bar wishing he would take out a few more.

I think it's because people can relate.  While the majority of police do a good job, it is true there is still an element of bullying, and there are still people drawn to that job because they want authority, and superiority over others.  The story of someone like Moat resonates with the people who have had issues with the police and police harrassment (be they rightly or wrongly harrassed) and people identified with the fact that he seemed to be trying to turn his life around, but faced difficulties in doing so.  While he was on the run I regularly heard people say "go on Moat" and from people you would not expect to take such an attitude too.   Young intelligent students who had been pushed around by police while protesting government fees for example.  It happened around the same time, and a large group of them really supported him.   

Does it make what he did right?  Of course not, he was completely wrong.  Can I understand that certain people would gravitate to and identify with him?  Yes.  But this is really an indictment of society and morals as they are today.  If you gave people reason to believe the police do a good job and are important, rather than the government's private army, and if people didn't see "them" and "us" and identified with the policeman as they do the taxi driver, then he would have been met with the same anger as Derek Bird was. 

There has been a long standing decay of respect and trust, and that is down to the government and police to earn it back.  People here are very anti-establishment right now, as we've been let down by our government, media and police.  The press scandal, the banking crisis, the MP expenses scandal, immigration benefits culture, light sentences, student protests, London riots, police covering up the Hillsborough disaster, it's all happened within a few years.  Therefore a rebel will earn some support, even when it is misplaced.

Every single one of us can emphasize with someone who has been pressured too much and finally "snaps".  Where we differ is on how much of the "snap" we can justify and tolerate.  For me, the moment someone takes another life, I lose any sympathy I may have had if they had killed themselves or sought help.  But there are some that will tolerate and sympathise with them, no matter how they choose to vent their frustration.
« Last Edit: February 15, 2013, 02:21:20 PM by Brittany »

Offline Braioch

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Re: The idolizing of a cop-killer.
« Reply #27 on: February 18, 2013, 08:56:34 AM »
Too often things like this play on people's dislike of established authority, or should I say authority that is and has been abused before. All too often do I meet people who intensely dislike and/or fear cops the minute they see them. When someone turns around and 'sticks it to them' they have a new folk hero, or a new way to thumb their noses at the established authority. Times like this when a lot of people are unhappy with who is in charge, I suspect people will flock to the support of events like this more often than they would in calmer, less turbulent and generally stressful times.

Don't get me wrong, I am unhappy with our leadership and have my own very strong opinions and theories of correction on the matter, (which I will not be using this thread to express :P) killing a cop and then turning around and making up a story (sorry, you don't wait two weeks, and have no evidence and expect me to believe the cop was beating someone) is not the way to go about it. If it was a case of a cop genuinely abusing their authority, and I don't mean just being a all around dick, but actually using their authority to cause great harm to someone, I could understand and sympathize with the man. However, all I see in this case is one asshole who has a short temper, poor decision making skills and a lack of a set of balls to admit he done fucked up.

I'm all for making a point, the point however should not be written in blood.

Offline MonfangTopic starter

Re: The idolizing of a cop-killer.
« Reply #28 on: February 18, 2013, 09:06:58 AM »
I'm glad to see for the most part this culture doesn't exist here.

Offline Brittany

Re: The idolizing of a cop-killer.
« Reply #29 on: February 18, 2013, 09:50:27 AM »
I'm glad to see for the most part this culture doesn't exist here.

It doesn't exist in most places.  It's a very minority thing because most people hold themselves to a standard that doesn't condone murder. 

I can tell you I don't have much respect for the police, I feel more nervous than secure when I see them, and this is coming from somebody who's biggest crime in life was to steal a creme egg (small 30p chocolate egg) from a store when I was 12.  I also fear with our politically correct culture I can make a reasoned argument on a website such as this one and find the police actively pressing me for racism or something.  People have been arrested for making jokes online, and people have been jailed for attacking a gang of travellers who broke into their home in the middle of the night.  In Great Britain right now, they feel like David Cameron's politically correct personal army more than upholders of justice, and this really needs to change.

I can understand people hating the police, I can understand people protesting the police and government.  And I can understand cheering for the underdog and supporting a rebel.  But individual officers are people doing their jobs, in the same way a taxi driver, a butcher, a nurse does theirs.  If someone has an argument with the police, the lowest level cops are not usually the right target.

Taking another persons life is unjustifiable in almost any circumstances outside of defense in my view. 
« Last Edit: February 18, 2013, 09:52:51 AM by Brittany »

Offline Braioch

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Re: The idolizing of a cop-killer.
« Reply #30 on: February 18, 2013, 11:23:06 AM »
It doesn't exist in most places.  It's a very minority thing because most people hold themselves to a standard that doesn't condone murder. 

I can tell you I don't have much respect for the police, I feel more nervous than secure when I see them, and this is coming from somebody who's biggest crime in life was to steal a creme egg (small 30p chocolate egg) from a store when I was 12.  I also fear with our politically correct culture I can make a reasoned argument on a website such as this one and find the police actively pressing me for racism or something.  People have been arrested for making jokes online, and people have been jailed for attacking a gang of travellers who broke into their home in the middle of the night.  In Great Britain right now, they feel like David Cameron's politically correct personal army more than upholders of justice, and this really needs to change.

I can understand people hating the police, I can understand people protesting the police and government.  And I can understand cheering for the underdog and supporting a rebel.  But individual officers are people doing their jobs, in the same way a taxi driver, a butcher, a nurse does theirs.  If someone has an argument with the police, the lowest level cops are not usually the right target.

Taking another persons life is unjustifiable in almost any circumstances outside of defense in my view.

The problem is that a lot of that is the end result of the justice system failing those people, not necessarily the cops. Most cops that get the short end of the stick are just grunts, the beat cops sent in to do the dirty work and get left with the mess to clean up. Admittedly these are also the ones whom when dirty or just abusive of their power you are most likely to run into.

I myself have had to deal with cops whom I did not like, not purely because they were doing their jobs, but because I could tell they were just being dicks because they could get away with it. Most cops that I've known however are decent and respectable people whom are just doing their job as they are made to do their jobs.

Offline Callie Del Noire

Re: The idolizing of a cop-killer.
« Reply #31 on: February 18, 2013, 12:47:43 PM »
Do I condone his actions? No. Do I think there is more to things that the offical line of 'crazy ex-cop' that some are spouting. Yes, I imainge that the LAPD will get another black eye out of this. If there is any truth to some of his assertions of conflict of interest? Was there a clear sequence of bias?

I doubt that it will be easy as that to prove the deceased's claims. I think a LOT of ass covering (pro and con) will be involved.