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Author Topic: The idolizing of a cop-killer.  (Read 1255 times)

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Offline MonfangTopic starter

The idolizing of a cop-killer.
« on: February 14, 2013, 05:53:24 PM »
I'm sure if you surf the net or watch the news, you heard or saw this. Facebook pages, twitters, online organizations and a political movement all siding with Christopher Dorner, the man who killed two civilians and two cops in his attempt to 'clear his name'. While this speaks about the culture we now live in, we can't talk about that before we learn more about the man in question.

Christopher was an Navy Reservist before joining the LAPD in 2005. He completed his training in 2006 and after returning from his deployment as a reservist to Bahrain for 13 months, was partnered with Sergeant Teresa Evans to complete his probationary training. During this training, in 2007, they were called to  the DoubleTree Hotel in San Pedro where Christopher Gettler was causing a disturbance. When Dorner and his training officer showed up, they found Gettler. He was uncooperative and threw a punch at one of the officers, prompting Sargent Evans, to use an electric Taser weapon on him and then arrest him. Here is where the story changes.

Dorner attests that Evans then kicked the man in the face, chest and the shoulders. However, not only where there no markings on the man or his clothing to coinside with being kicked. Three witnesses from the DoubleTree Hotel who watched the events testified to not seeing any kicking occurring. There are also two other issues with the story. First, Dorner was given a poor rating prior to him coming forward about the incident and second, it took him two weeks to come forward.

It was this incident that cause Dorner to be fired and lose his security clearance which also made him lose his job with the Navy Reserves, it was unclear whether this was before or after his divorce in 2007. Dorner did fight the termination, taking it to court several times. However the judges all found that there was no sufficient evidence to support Dorner's claims. The last time was in 2011.

Dorner goes off the radar for a time after this before posting his manifesto online in early February. Here's the timeline that I found of the events:

Spoiler: Click to Show/Hide
On February 1, Anderson Cooper of CNN received a package at his office containing a DVD that states Dorner's case against the LAPD. The package also contained a bullet-ridden Challenge coin issued by LAPD Chief William Bratton and a note inscribed with "1MOA" (1 Minute of Angle), implying that the coin was shot at 100m.

In the city of Irvine, in the evening hours of February 3, 2013, 28-year-old Monica Quan, and her fiance, 27-year-old Keith Lawrence, were found shot to death in Lawrence's parked car, outside their condominium complex. Quan, an assistant women's basketball coach at Cal State Fullerton, was the daughter of Randal Quan, a former Los Angeles Police Department captain and lawyer who formerly represented Dorner during Dorner's dismissal hearing from the LAPD. Lawrence was a campus security officer for University of Southern California.

On February 4, a manifesto was published online, purportedly by Dorner, outlining his experiences and stating his motives for the shootings as being to clear his name. In it he wrote, "I will not be alive to see my name cleared. That's what this is about, my name." Dorner's manifesto had also specifically named Randal Quan and his family as targets, so Irvine police named Dorner as the primary suspect in the murders of Monica Quan and Keith Lawrence on the afternoon of February 6, 2013. The manifesto said that Quan had failed to represent Dorner's interests, in favor of those of the department. Dorner reported specific acts of specific officers participating in the retaliation but their names have been redacted by media sources at the request of law enforcement who have cited officer safety concerns.

At approximately 1:30 am on February 7, two LAPD officers were driving to a protection detail where they were assigned as security for one of the officers potentially targeted by Dorner, when they were flagged down by a civilian. The person who flagged them down reported seeing a man matching Dorner's description at a gas station in Corona. The officers investigated the report, and they were following a pickup truck when the driver stopped, got out, and fired a rifle at them, grazing the head of one officer.
Shortly after that incident, two police officers were ambushed while stopped in their marked patrol unit at a red light in the city of Riverside. One officer, Michael Crain, died shortly after the shooting; the other was rushed to a nearby hospital in critical condition for surgery but survived.

It was after this event that police put their entire force on 'Tactical Alert'. This meant that each officer was now working 12-hour shifts 7 days a week. When they found evidence that Dorner was moving out of the LAPD's jurisdictions, other police forces joined in. They followed the trail to the Big Bear mountain range. Most of us know the incidents that follow which lead to the final firefight on the 13th.

During the events, Dorner becomes something of a cult hero in some circles. These circles already had their grevences about the LAPD or police in general, and to have someone whom they can believe is fighting against them was enough for them to cheer for more deaths by the officers and apparently by anyone related to them seeing as they didn't shed a tear about the two civilians.

I can't even begin to understand why they would do this beyond mental deficiency. To call for the killing of people just because of the organization they belong to is rather unusual to me.

I'm sure we could hit the usual suspects for the growth of these circles; The Internet for making it easier for them to get together, Rap music that often have negative lyrics on the topic of the police, video games that reward their killing. However, I think it may be something deeper than that. However, I am unsure as to what it is. What do you folks think? Do you think Dorner is a hero? Or do you have any idea as to why he is treated as such?

Offline Trieste

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Re: The idolizing of a cop-killer.
« Reply #1 on: February 14, 2013, 05:56:10 PM »
Would you mind citing your sources for all of the facts you've presented? Things like the description of the altercation can be altered greatly by inherent bias - and most writing is biased. Discerning that bias is a big part of analyzing the information given.

It would be appreciated.  :-)

Offline MonfangTopic starter

Re: The idolizing of a cop-killer.
« Reply #2 on: February 14, 2013, 06:42:35 PM »
Would you mind citing your sources for all of the facts you've presented? Things like the description of the altercation can be altered greatly by inherent bias - and most writing is biased. Discerning that bias is a big part of analyzing the information given.

It would be appreciated.  :-)
I pulled it from the LA Times and from the Wiki page associated with the incidents and the person in question.

Offline Trieste

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Re: The idolizing of a cop-killer.
« Reply #3 on: February 14, 2013, 06:48:01 PM »
Thank you. Which parts did you pull from which sources?

Offline MonfangTopic starter

Re: The idolizing of a cop-killer.
« Reply #4 on: February 14, 2013, 06:54:45 PM »
Thank you. Which parts did you pull from which sources?
I pulled the timeline and the information about him and his service from the wiki page and the information about the kicking incident from the LATimes. The rest of it is commentary.

Offline Cyrano Johnson

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Re: The idolizing of a cop-killer.
« Reply #5 on: February 14, 2013, 06:55:20 PM »
IMO, the so-called "idolizing" of Chris Dorner appears to be the province of a tiny handful of kooks on the Internet, and mostly of interest to conservatives extremely desperate for a talking point. It is little more interesting than the "secessionists" who cropped up both times Obama was elected and turned out to be mostly a small subgroup of people demanding "secession" on behalf of a bunch of states they didn't live in.


Offline MonfangTopic starter

Re: The idolizing of a cop-killer.
« Reply #6 on: February 14, 2013, 07:01:08 PM »
IMO, the so-called "idolizing" of Chris Dorner appears to be the province of a tiny handful of kooks on the Internet
Of course they are the minority, however this doesn't offer an explanation as to why they think like they do.

Offline Cyrano Johnson

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Re: The idolizing of a cop-killer.
« Reply #7 on: February 14, 2013, 07:06:38 PM »
Of course they are the minority, however this doesn't offer an explanation as to why they think like they do.

They're quite explicit about why they think like they do: they've had bad experiences with cops, and Dorner must now be a hero because he became the enemy of what they think of as their enemy. It's not hard to see the fallacy at work there, some amount of people thinking like this about X item in the news is not entirely novel.

But a pro-Chris Dorner site getting 90 whole "likes" on Facebook is not earth-shattering news. I think probably the more interesting story is not the pro-Dorner kooks, but those parties who are so very interested in making hay of them as some kind of significant, newsworthy political story.

Offline MonfangTopic starter

Re: The idolizing of a cop-killer.
« Reply #8 on: February 14, 2013, 07:16:01 PM »
They're quite explicit about why they think like they do: they've had bad experiences with cops, and Dorner must now be a hero because he became the enemy of what they think of as their enemy. It's not hard to see the fallacy at work there, some amount of people thinking like this about X item in the news is not entirely novel.

I can't say I had all positive experiences with cops as well, however I am epathic to them and learned to understand why they behave as they do. I ask though, how did we as a culture become one that looks at cops as a whole in such a negative way?

Offline Trieste

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Re: The idolizing of a cop-killer.
« Reply #9 on: February 14, 2013, 07:19:58 PM »
I can't say I had all positive experiences with cops as well, however I am epathic to them and learned to understand why they behave as they do. I ask though, how did we as a culture become one that looks at cops as a whole in such a negative way?

I would argue that it is mixed. "Cop-killer" is actually a fairly inflammatory term in itself. Cops are respected, admired, and called heroes by a pretty wide swathe of the population.

Offline Oniya

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Re: The idolizing of a cop-killer.
« Reply #10 on: February 14, 2013, 07:24:44 PM »
I can't say I had all positive experiences with cops as well, however I am epathic to them and learned to understand why they behave as they do. I ask though, how did we as a culture become one that looks at cops as a whole in such a negative way?

Because people focus on the 'bad apples' like Mark Fuhrman's use of the 'N-word' or the the Rodney King beating, and ignore the people that quietly do the best job that they can do.  Horrific video and damning audio tapes fall under the 'If it bleeds, it leads' category of journalism.

Offline Cyrano Johnson

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Re: The idolizing of a cop-killer.
« Reply #11 on: February 14, 2013, 07:26:49 PM »
we as a culture become one that looks at cops as a whole in such a negative way?

"We" didn't. Cops are reflexively idolized by most of the populace in both Canada and America. I would go so far as to say they are still reflexively idolized, on the whole, even by groups that have disproportionately bad experiences with law enforcement. They just aren't idolized by some of the people who've had bad experiences with them, some of whom take it too far.

Offline MonfangTopic starter

Re: The idolizing of a cop-killer.
« Reply #12 on: February 14, 2013, 07:32:12 PM »
Hmmm.. Perhaps I have allowed myself to be in the minority too much and now my world-view is a bit clouded to the truth.

Online Zeitgeist

Re: The idolizing of a cop-killer.
« Reply #13 on: February 14, 2013, 09:03:57 PM »
IMO, the so-called "idolizing" of Chris Dorner appears to be the province of a tiny handful of kooks on the Internet, and mostly of interest to conservatives extremely desperate for a talking point. It is little more interesting than the "secessionists" who cropped up both times Obama was elected and turned out to be mostly a small subgroup of people demanding "secession" on behalf of a bunch of states they didn't live in.

Really now. Like Marc Lamont Hill who talking out both sides of his mouth paying lip service to the killings while at the same time characterizing him as an action hero?

Chris Dorner's 'Exciting' Rampage 'Like Watching Django' Exact Revenge For Police Brutality

Offline MonfangTopic starter

Re: The idolizing of a cop-killer.
« Reply #14 on: February 14, 2013, 09:04:56 PM »
You know, I wanted to link to what the news media was doing to him, but I thought that would be hitting below the belt.

Online Zeitgeist

Re: The idolizing of a cop-killer.
« Reply #15 on: February 14, 2013, 09:07:10 PM »
You know, I wanted to link to what the news media was doing to him, but I thought that would be hitting below the belt.

How so?

It was like a Denzel Washington movie! Says one frothing talking head.

Offline Trieste

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Re: The idolizing of a cop-killer.
« Reply #16 on: February 14, 2013, 09:08:25 PM »
You know, I wanted to link to what the news media was doing to him, but I thought that would be hitting below the belt.

Providing concrete examples of something you're talking about is a good thing, for future reference.

Offline MonfangTopic starter


Offline Cyrano Johnson

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Re: The idolizing of a cop-killer.
« Reply #18 on: February 14, 2013, 10:55:03 PM »
Really now. Like Marc Lamont Hill who talking out both sides of his mouth paying lip service to the killings while at the same time characterizing him as an action hero?

You're aggressively misrepresenting Hill's comments. He said clearly that he was explaining what motivates these people to identify with the guy, not endorsing his actions. He's saying (correctly) that they're seeing him in a superheroic role, as a surrogate for their own frustrations. He is correct. He is also correct that the guy is a murderer and what he did was wrong. Understanding both things strikes me as honesty to the facts, not "talking out of both sides of his mouth"...

... unless of course you want the guy to be foaming and denouncing him as a terrorist and blathering about how these people are all probably Obama supporters, which someone on Fox is most surely doing right at this moment. The conservative fascination with this relatively minor phenomenon is of course to whip up another serving of red meat for its Negrophobic base, this also is nothing new.

Offline MonfangTopic starter

Re: The idolizing of a cop-killer.
« Reply #19 on: February 14, 2013, 11:00:19 PM »
You're aggressively misrepresenting Hill's comments. He said clearly that he was explaining what motivates these people to identify with the guy, not endorsing his actions. He's saying (correctly) that they're seeing him in a superheroic role, as a surrogate for their own frustrations. He is correct. He is also correct that the guy is a murderer and what he did was wrong. Understanding both things strikes me as honesty to the facts, not "talking out of both sides of his mouth"...

... unless of course you want the guy to be foaming and denouncing him as a terrorist and blathering about how these people are all probably Obama supporters, which someone on Fox is most surely doing right at this moment. The conservative fascination with this relatively minor phenomenon is of course to whip up another serving of red meat for its Negrophobic base, this also is nothing new.
And this is why I keep the media out of it.

Online Zeitgeist

Re: The idolizing of a cop-killer.
« Reply #20 on: February 14, 2013, 11:15:00 PM »
Ya'll right, it is all Bush and Fox News' fault. My bad. <chortle>

Offline Cyrano Johnson

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Re: The idolizing of a cop-killer.
« Reply #21 on: February 14, 2013, 11:22:02 PM »
Ya'll right, it is all Bush and Fox News' fault. My bad. <chortle>

Weak sauce, man.

Offline MonfangTopic starter

Re: The idolizing of a cop-killer.
« Reply #22 on: February 14, 2013, 11:22:58 PM »
Ya'll right, it is all Bush and Fox News' fault. My bad. <chortle>
Oh there is such an easy target with that, but that would derail the conversation.

We see now that the support expands more from fringe groups to people who actually have influence.

Offline Cyrano Johnson

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Re: The idolizing of a cop-killer.
« Reply #23 on: February 14, 2013, 11:27:01 PM »
We see now that the support expands more from fringe groups to people who actually have influence.

Is any of this claimed "support" anything different from Zeitgeist's attempt to misrepresent Marc Lamont Hill above? Because if all the claims are of that caliber, there's nothing going on but "conservative" self-abuse.

Offline Caehlim