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Author Topic: Will feminism really bring women happiness?  (Read 9193 times)

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Offline Rhapsody

Re: Will feminism really bring women happiness?
« Reply #225 on: March 13, 2013, 01:19:32 PM »
Because the so-called "extremists" aren't a "tiny" minority and are *not* shun by the rest of them.

I don't want to sound like a broken record, but feel free to read my previous posts. I have given examples of clearly misadrist statements by Magdalena Środa, who is considered to be one of the *leaders* of feminists in my country.

They are tiny and a minority. They just tend to be louder and pushier than the rest of us.

Offline Ack Arg

Re: Will feminism really bring women happiness?
« Reply #226 on: March 13, 2013, 01:35:40 PM »
They are tiny and a minority. They just tend to be louder and pushier than the rest of us.

Don't forget that we like to watch the loud and crazy people. They always seem to be picked up by the television aliens and given a big ol' echo chamber to make noise in.

Offline Oniya

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Re: Will feminism really bring women happiness?
« Reply #227 on: March 13, 2013, 01:42:53 PM »
'An empty barrel makes the most noise.'

Offline Ephiral

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Re: Will feminism really bring women happiness?
« Reply #228 on: March 13, 2013, 01:59:23 PM »
Because the so-called "extremists" aren't a "tiny" minority and are *not* shun by the rest of them.

I don't want to sound like a broken record, but feel free to read my previous posts. I have given examples of clearly misadrist statements by Magdalena Środa, who is considered to be one of the *leaders* of feminists in my country.

She seems to be a leading and respected feminist in Poland, yes. Poland is, I hope you'll agree, a pretty tiny minority of the world, and she doesn't seem to have much influence outside its borders. So you're not really making your case here. Oh, and I did go through your previous posts:

Google "Magdalena Środa", guys. Believe me, if you came over here and tried to convince *anyone* that she's not a real feminist, you'd get laughed at. Especially by feminists themselves.

I just did. Extensively, including about five variants on each of the statements you claim she made. I was unable to find them. I did find "controversial" statements by her - that Catholic culture is not properly condemning of violence against women, and one comment that did seem to privilege women... being repudiated by a Polish feminist. So I remain unconvinced that she is a horrible misandrist constantly spewing bile, or that her problematic statements are reflective of Polish feminist culture as a whole.

Offline Beorning

Re: Will feminism really bring women happiness?
« Reply #229 on: March 13, 2013, 02:14:09 PM »
I just did. Extensively, including about five variants on each of the statements you claim she made. I was unable to find them. I did find "controversial" statements by her - that Catholic culture is not properly condemning of violence against women, and one comment that did seem to privilege women... being repudiated by a Polish feminist. So I remain unconvinced that she is a horrible misandrist constantly spewing bile, or that her problematic statements are reflective of Polish feminist culture as a whole.

Well, she *did* say these things. The fact that they can't be found in English-language Internet doesn't mean they didn't happen.

Aaaaand... the blog you linked *does* point out that Środa is a leading Polish feminist. And yet, she *is* a misandrist. So, that means that misandrist feminists aren't always some sort of minority that aren't representative of feminism movement at all.

Offline Oniya

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Re: Will feminism really bring women happiness?
« Reply #230 on: March 13, 2013, 02:19:36 PM »
So, by your argument, Sarah Palin and Paul Ryan should be held up as representatives of the whole Republican party, and the Phelps clan should be held up as representatives of all of Christianity?

Offline Beorning

Re: Will feminism really bring women happiness?
« Reply #231 on: March 13, 2013, 02:25:24 PM »
So, by your argument, Sarah Palin and Paul Ryan should be held up as representatives of the whole Republican party, and the Phelps clan should be held up as representatives of all of Christianity?

I have never heard the Phelps clan being described as "leading Christians". When it comes to Palin - well, she *was* a VP candidate. It makes her an important Republican to me and yes, I have no problem with her being seen as representative of her party.

Offline Lilias

Re: Will feminism really bring women happiness?
« Reply #232 on: March 13, 2013, 02:33:36 PM »
'An empty barrel makes the most noise.'

Alternatively, 'The bigger the jackass, the louder the bray.' ;)

Offline Ephiral

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Re: Will feminism really bring women happiness?
« Reply #233 on: March 13, 2013, 02:38:59 PM »
Well, she *did* say these things. The fact that they can't be found in English-language Internet doesn't mean they didn't happen.

No, but it does mean citation needed.

Aaaaand... the blog you linked *does* point out that Środa is a leading Polish feminist. And yet, she *is* a misandrist. So, that means that misandrist feminists aren't always some sort of minority that aren't representative of feminism movement at all.

Except it also specifically rejects her female-chauvinist (not misandrist) comments. Someone can be a leader without every one of their positions being embraced. The fact that she's a leader and she made a problematic comment does not mean that this problematic comment is representative.

And again, Polish feminism is not feminism as a whole. Even if it were rotten to its core, painting a global movement with that brush seems... misguided.

Offline Kythia

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Re: Will feminism really bring women happiness?
« Reply #234 on: March 13, 2013, 02:44:44 PM »
There's a Polish couple living in my apartment.  If its easier for you just chuck us the Polish links and I'll get them to look over them.  She's a translator by profession.

Offline Avis habilis

Re: Will feminism really bring women happiness?
« Reply #235 on: March 13, 2013, 02:47:53 PM »
There's also Google translate. Good enough to get the gist.

Online Valerian

Re: Will feminism really bring women happiness?
« Reply #236 on: March 13, 2013, 02:51:54 PM »
I have never heard the Phelps clan being described as "leading Christians". When it comes to Palin - well, she *was* a VP candidate. It makes her an important Republican to me and yes, I have no problem with her being seen as representative of her party.
I don't think people are still taking Palin seriously, are they?  Even Fox News doesn't want her around anymore.

I know no one's still taking Paul Ryan seriously.  His approval ratings are hovering somewhere around 35%.

Offline Oniya

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Re: Will feminism really bring women happiness?
« Reply #237 on: March 13, 2013, 02:58:28 PM »
I don't think people are still taking Palin seriously, are they?  Even Fox News doesn't want her around anymore.

I know no one's still taking Paul Ryan seriously.  His approval ratings are hovering somewhere around 35%.

That's exactly what I was trying to get across.  Both of them were rather noisy (Ryan still is, with his new budget), but calling them 'representative' is a very narrow view.

Offline Beorning

Re: Will feminism really bring women happiness?
« Reply #238 on: March 13, 2013, 03:22:17 PM »
No, but it does mean citation needed.

I really wish I could provide some links here...

Quote
Except it also specifically rejects her female-chauvinist (not misandrist) comments. Someone can be a leader without every one of their positions being embraced. The fact that she's a leader and she made a problematic comment does not mean that this problematic comment is representative.

Yeah, but if a leader continues to make misandrist comments and still *remains* a leader, then... what does it say about the movement itself?

Quote
And again, Polish feminism is not feminism as a whole. Even if it were rotten to its core, painting a global movement with that brush seems... misguided.

That's true. But let's say that my contacts with our local brand of feminism have made me... distrustful.

There's a Polish couple living in my apartment.  If its easier for you just chuck us the Polish links and I'll get them to look over them.  She's a translator by profession.

Unfortunately, I can't find any links :(

Alright, found it!  ;D

http://www.tokfm.pl/Tokfm/1,102433,10066132,Sroda_dla_tokfm_pl__Ta_meska_bylejakosc.html

An example of Środa's misandrist views - this is where she complains about "male sloppiness" that is destroying Poland and urges people to vote for women. Because women would be better at running everything.
« Last Edit: March 13, 2013, 03:31:34 PM by Beorning »

Offline Ack Arg

Re: Will feminism really bring women happiness?
« Reply #239 on: March 13, 2013, 03:34:55 PM »

People get way more credit on their reputation than their work. So most people brought up in the news or that write a book are noted as leaders, experts or thinkers. Since I'm pretty sure expert just means "someone that made money off of it" at this point. A shoplifter being brought in to comment on the opening of a convenience store would be called an expert.

What leader means? Meh. That bit about the barrels was good. I wrote that one down.



So, by your argument, Sarah Palin and Paul Ryan should be held up as representatives of the whole Republican party, and the Phelps clan should be held up as representatives of all of Christianity?

Lots of people think they're representitives, especially they themselves.


Offline Ephiral

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Re: Will feminism really bring women happiness?
« Reply #240 on: March 13, 2013, 03:42:28 PM »
Yeah, but if a leader continues to make misandrist comments and still *remains* a leader, then... what does it say about the movement itself?
That, in its estimation, the positive contributions that leader brings to the table outweigh the damage done by the harmful elements?

That's true. But let's say that my contacts with our local brand of feminism have made me... distrustful.

I'd say "judgemental". You're not seeking evidence to confirm/deny statements, you're flatly stating (on no evidence) that this one person's worst statements are representative of a massive global movement. I humbly suggest doing a bit of research. I can point you to some sources, if you'd like, including ones that specifically speak to why the existing gender stereotypes and power structure are harmful for men.

http://www.tokfm.pl/Tokfm/1,102433,10066132,Sroda_dla_tokfm_pl__Ta_meska_bylejakosc.html

An example of Środa's misandrist views - this is where she complains about "male sloppiness" that is destroying Poland and urges people to vote for women. Because women would be better at running everything.

And I, as a feminist, reject this as harmful, sexist, and bullshit.


Offline Cyrano Johnson

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Re: Will feminism really bring women happiness?
« Reply #242 on: March 13, 2013, 03:54:26 PM »
Worth pointing out that Magdalena Sroda is not a "leader of the feminist movement" in Poland as Beorning is portraying her. She's a Polish academic figure who happens to be some stripe of feminist and to have been politically active, with some connections to the government after Solidarnosc's victory. That doesn't make her a "leader" of "the feminists," with whom as a broader movement she has actually had some quite spectacular blow-outs.

Offline Beorning

Re: Will feminism really bring women happiness?
« Reply #243 on: March 13, 2013, 04:06:41 PM »
That, in its estimation, the positive contributions that leader brings to
the table outweigh the damage done by the harmful elements?

Wait. Sexism is evil, right? Then shouldn't a sexist leader be condemned?

Quote
I'd say "judgemental". You're not seeking evidence to confirm/deny statements, you're flatly stating (on no evidence) that this one person's worst statements are representative of a massive global movement. I humbly suggest doing a bit of research. I can point you to some sources, if you'd like, including ones that specifically speak to why the existing gender stereotypes and power structure are harmful for men.

I have never said that I like gender stereotypes. Being a feminine man, I'm a victim of stereotypes myself...

And let me stress that: I'm not saying that I know every feminist in the world. I'm not saying that there are no sensible feminists. The only thing I'm trying to say is that my experiences with our local brand of feminism has made me distrustful to the movement (even though I started out as a person *sympathetic* to it). Because I've noticed that, at times, feminisms drifts into absurd and man-hate.

Quote
And I, as a feminist, reject this as harmful, sexist, and bullshit.

Good!  ;D

The translated version:

http://translate.googleusercontent.com/translate_c?depth=1&hl=en&ie=UTF8&prev=_t&rurl=translate.google.com&sl=auto&tl=en&u=http://www.tokfm.pl/Tokfm/1,102433,10066132,Sroda_dla_tokfm_pl__Ta_meska_bylejakosc.html&usg=ALkJrhjQlF3yIhk6r2hnA-pZXDDYDX-qiA

Oh dear. It reads... pretty strange.

BTW. If you wonder why there's Wednesday in the title... it's because "Środa" means "Wednesday" in Polish.

Worth pointing out that Magdalena Sroda is not a "leader of the feminist movement" in Poland as Beorning is portraying her. She's a Polish academic figure who happens to be some stripe of feminist and to have been politically active, with some connections to the government after Solidarnosc's victory. That doesn't make her a "leader" of "the feminists," with whom as a broader movement she has actually had some quite spectacular blow-outs.

I'm saying that she's *one* of the leaders. Isn't she currently connected to Kongres Kobiet?

I've honestly never heard about Środa having any kind of "blow-outs" with other feminists.
« Last Edit: March 13, 2013, 04:08:12 PM by Beorning »

Offline Ack Arg

Re: Will feminism really bring women happiness?
« Reply #244 on: March 13, 2013, 04:11:05 PM »
That, in its estimation, the positive contributions that leader brings to the table outweigh the damage done by the harmful elements?

.... You're not seeking evidence to confirm/deny statements, you're flatly stating (on no evidence)...

People that end up as leaders are sometimes there due to a crapshoot. It does happen. Assuming you buy the leader thing as being true.

And I don't really think beorning should have to prove his impression of feminists from his own experiences. I think he's trying to explain that his impression is his impression and that's why he has a certain take on it.


... The only thing I'm trying to say is that my experiences with our local brand of feminism has made me distrustful to the movement ...

Ah, there we are.

Offline Cyrano Johnson

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Re: Will feminism really bring women happiness?
« Reply #245 on: March 13, 2013, 04:20:54 PM »
Wait. Sexism is evil, right? Then shouldn't a sexist leader be condemned?

If feminists actually acted like people whose worldview was this irresponsibly oversimplistic and binary, would you not condemn them for it? Do you believe that every male politician with a personality flaw or retrograde view should by run out on a rail by men?

Quote
I'm saying that she's *one* of the leaders.

Surely Manuela Gretkowska is a far more relevant figure to mention in connection with Kongres Kobiet, since AFAIK she created it and currently leads it? But then, perhaps she hasn't said anything outrageous.

Quote
I've honestly never heard about Środa having any kind of "blow-outs" with other feminists.

It's how I first heard of her. Google her 2008 comments on pregnant women and labour relations.

Offline Kythia

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Re: Will feminism really bring women happiness?
« Reply #246 on: March 13, 2013, 04:22:02 PM »
Quote
I've honestly never heard about Środa having any kind of "blow-outs" with other feminists.

Just look at the comments on the article you provided.

Offline Beorning

Re: Will feminism really bring women happiness?
« Reply #247 on: March 13, 2013, 04:27:41 PM »
If feminists actually acted like people whose worldview was this irresponsibly oversimplistic and binary, would you not condemn them for it? Do you believe that every male politician with a personality flaw or retrograde view should by run out on a rail by men?

Well, it does happen. There was this Węgrzyn MP who made one comment about lesbians and it costed him his whole political career...

Quote
Surely Manuela Gretkowska is a far more relevant figure to mention in connection with Kongres Kobiet, since AFAIK she created it and currently leads it? But then, perhaps she hasn't said anything outrageous.

I think you're mixing up Kongres Kobiet with Partia Kobiet.

Quote
It's how I first heard of her. Google her 2008 comments on pregnant women and labour relations.

Ah, this. Okay, I'll give you that.

Just look at the comments on the article you provided.

These aren't comments by feminists, but by average Internet users :)

Offline Kythia

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Re: Will feminism really bring women happiness?
« Reply #248 on: March 13, 2013, 04:31:36 PM »
These aren't comments by feminists, but by average Internet users :)

I'm sorry, I'm not certain what the distinction you're drawing is?

Offline Cyrano Johnson

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Re: Will feminism really bring women happiness?
« Reply #249 on: March 13, 2013, 04:36:12 PM »
I think you're mixing up Kongres Kobiet with Partia Kobiet.

Whoops, my bad. So, you mean this? She's one of a number of Shadow Cabinet members -- she doesn't govern the organization, I don't see why she should be the yardstick of Polish feminism as opposed to the hundreds of other women involved with that same organization. And I don't see why they should be judged for failing to run her off because she has one or two controversial views; those would be signs of an ideologically narrow and despotic movement, which would be a bad thing, right?