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Author Topic: Anonymous: Operation Last Resort  (Read 3158 times)

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Offline Trieste

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Re: Anonymous: Operation Last Resort
« Reply #50 on: January 30, 2013, 06:45:09 PM »
The connection is that regardless of one's opinion of Anonymous in particular, your contention that "reform almost always happens from within" is just false.

And then you were disagreed with - and then your examples were refuted - but you're sort of handwaving those away with "oh, semantics".

So separatists work within the political structure but are not part of the establishment - not semantics.

Revolution is not equal to reform - semantics.

Please elaborate.

Offline Cyrano Johnson

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Re: Anonymous: Operation Last Resort
« Reply #51 on: January 30, 2013, 06:46:52 PM »
Trieste, I'll be honest: if citing actual facts somehow counts for you as "handwaving" and mere disagreement counts for you as "refutation," I just don't think you're engaging the conversation in good faith.

Quote
So separatists work within the political structure but are not part of the establishment - not semantics.

It would also be nice if you'd take the trouble not to misquote and distort what I've said.
« Last Edit: January 30, 2013, 06:49:26 PM by Cyrano Johnson »

Offline Callie Del Noire

Re: Anonymous: Operation Last Resort
« Reply #52 on: January 30, 2013, 07:13:33 PM »
Almost all separatist movements have segments that work within the system. The degree of success and integration are differing.  Basque groups on both sides of the French/Spanish border have folks within the system trying to get a Basque homeland though most of the actions/activity are by outside groups. No group, how 'outside' the establishment truly exists outside it. There is some level of interaction. It's not always diplomatic or a set order of detente but it exists.

I hate to say it but no group exists outside the system totally. Even if they are simply assaulting it without any discourse at all, they are interacting with it.


Offline Cyrano Johnson

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Re: Anonymous: Operation Last Resort
« Reply #53 on: January 30, 2013, 07:25:12 PM »
There is some level of interaction. It's not always diplomatic or a set order of detente but it exists.

Of course there is "some level of interaction." This just doesn't make every variant of reform an example of "reform from within."

Offline Chris Brady

Re: Anonymous: Operation Last Resort
« Reply #54 on: January 30, 2013, 07:25:36 PM »
More semantics. Separatists can be "part of the political landscape" without being part of the establishment. Those are different things.

(In point of fact, though, the PQ has effectively played out as a separatist movement, and its demise as such probably can be traced to its decision to participate in and thus legitimate federal politics.)
Actually, no.  It's played out because most of the old PQ guard are outnumbered by the immigrants, and will continue to be, as long as Canada doesn't turn into Switzerland (or at least I think it's Switzerland, where the only 'citizens' are those born in the country, and they're the only ones who can vote.  IF I'm remembering correctly, which I may not.)  In other words, they're played out because no one wants to leave Canada.  Hell, even they don't, when they sit down and try to figure out what they'd need to do.

(A couple of instances come to mind.  Like wanting to keep 'their' Canadian Military gear should they separate.  And keeping the Canadian Dollar as their 'national' currency after they leave.  Among others, more laughable notions.)

What it comes down to it is that no good change happens because of fear tactics.  And what this group of hackers claiming to be Anonymous is doing is fear tactics.

Offline Cyrano Johnson

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Re: Anonymous: Operation Last Resort
« Reply #55 on: January 30, 2013, 07:42:44 PM »
Chris, you're right that I'm oversimplifying somewhat in re: the PQ. Insiderness and outsiderness are of course not sole determining factors, it also helps if people actually want what your movement is selling. ("Sovereignty association" has always been a bit of a joke.)

I don't know that your conclusion follows, though. That's a separate question.

Offline Callie Del Noire

Re: Anonymous: Operation Last Resort
« Reply #56 on: January 30, 2013, 07:54:58 PM »
Of course there is "some level of interaction." This just doesn't make every variant of reform an example of "reform from within."

True.. and even the issues that you brought up have some 'internal elements'. South Africa wasn't a complete divide, otherwise the reforms that occurred would have never happened and the change over from Apartheid to what they have today would have been done with bullets..not ballots.

It is, in my opinion and to me.. reflected in the changes I've seen in countries like Northern Ireland and South Africa and East Germany, infinitely better for some sort of political system reform than change at rifle point.

To proclaim that the system isn't fixable at all is to refute/refuse to consider options that could avoid loss of life.

Does the US Governent do things I disagree with. Of course. Do they do questionable acts overseas such as drone strikes.. yes. Could these actions be construed as terrorism.. possibly.

Consider this... would you trust many of the groups on most Western nations Terror lists..considering they typically suppress their own folks (I don't see the US running around shooting 16 year old girls in the head or lopping off the arms of minorities ), or engage in actions that are highly confrontational. I don't see the US, UK or anyone else promising dozens of virgins in the next life.. or forcing someone into a bomb vest.

I could tell stories of what people I met in the Gulf had done/seen/experienced or coworkers who had talked with family over there.

It would distract from this thread though. Simply put, it is better in effort, cost of lives and strain to work within the system than outside it.

No system is perfect, and a good system has a healthy critical-selfawareness of itself. We aren't as healthy as we should be.. but we aren't as bad as some. And internal reform has fixed systems a LOT worse than ours.

Malcolm X once gave a speech about the 'Ballot and the Bullet'. I read it, and just finished rereading it. It's long.. blunt and looking over the tide of the civil rights reforms he never got to see.. a bit weird. There is a chilling resonance in the things he rails against.  Social inequality.. politicians that represent small groups over their entire electorate, communities disenfranchised with little to no internal control things. It is chililng to see such things five decades later. Names and groups have changed.. but the issues haven't.

But he's right.. a Ballot is our bullet.. and when we use them together, even when we don't agree with each other totally.. it can do a lot of damage.

Offline Cyrano Johnson

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Re: Anonymous: Operation Last Resort
« Reply #57 on: January 30, 2013, 08:12:48 PM »
True.. and even the issues that you brought up have some 'internal elements'. South Africa wasn't a complete divide, otherwise the reforms that occurred would have never happened and the change over from Apartheid to what they have today would have been done with bullets..not ballots.

Well, like I said there can be people of goodwill -- or relative absence of ill-will -- within an establishment. (Even in the depths of apartheid, for example, the South African justice system, given the supremely Orwellian task of pretending apartheid was fair and fact-based, was not completely corrupt*. There were lies it would not buy and facts it would not or could not cover up.) The only really non-negotiable bone of contention in the South African case was apartheid; take it off the table and nobody really had any other problem with South Africa's system of government, which was an establishment to which the people otherwise wanted access.

Be that as it may, the apartheid establishment would never have reformed itself out of existence "from within." It killed and tortured tens of thousands of people trying to stay in power. It was external forces -- the ANC and other anti-apartheid groups first of all, and the economic realities of international pariah status which the ANC had worked to bring about second of all -- that forced it to the bargaining table. It's also correct that what kept it there, and kept full civil war from breaking out, was that the ANC's demands were actually reasonable, humane and required the establishment to reform itself, not to completely self-immolate; this was the important distinction between the ANC and "one settler, one bullet" Pan-Africanist Congress. As I said, 'internal' factors can play a part; that has nothing to do with whether all meaningful reform "happens from within." That external forces demand change does not mean they have to be demanding the destruction of every part of an establishment.

Relevant: note that Anonymous' acts -- assess their likely outcomes as you will -- are explicitly in the way of demanding reform and the return of the American justice system to its ideals, not the complete tearing-down of the American justice system.

(* edited. Thanks Oniya!)
« Last Edit: January 30, 2013, 08:23:13 PM by Cyrano Johnson »

Offline Oniya

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Re: Anonymous: Operation Last Resort
« Reply #58 on: January 30, 2013, 08:20:28 PM »
(Even in the depths of apartheid, for example, the South African justice system, given the supremely Orwellian task of pretending apartheid was fair and fact-based, was not completely venial. There were lies it would not buy and facts it would not or could not cover up.)

Wouldn't that be 'at least partially venial'?  It sounds as if there were some redeeming factors there.

Offline Cyrano Johnson

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Re: Anonymous: Operation Last Resort
« Reply #59 on: January 30, 2013, 08:22:06 PM »
Wouldn't that be 'at least partially venial'?  It sounds as if there were some redeeming factors there.

Whoops. "Venal," I meant, not venial. It was not entirely corrupt.

Offline Callie Del Noire

Re: Anonymous: Operation Last Resort
« Reply #60 on: January 30, 2013, 08:31:08 PM »

Relevant: note that Anonymous' acts -- assess their likely outcomes as you will -- are explicitly in the way of demanding reform and the return of the American justice system to its ideals, not the complete tearing-down of the American justice system.

In this video. The problem with a group like Anon.. is there are many groups within the structure..and as time goes on.. you'll see the more radical come forward. A LOT of ill will was generated with the flurry of issues around Julian Assange. (Me, if I was the DoJ/DoS.. I'd declare him persona non grata and agree to not pursue extradition. Then watch his support wilt as he finds NEW reasons not to come out of that embassy)

Thing is.. even the cases you cite.. might have been spurred by external issues.. it was internal reform that fixed them. Ballots..not bullets.

I wish that we could get someone to step up and push the reform. I'm hoping folks will continue to pay attention to the issues that drove Aaron Swartz to suicide, but I fear that it won't. It would have been better, for him AND the reform movement, had he lived. With the release of the documents he was charged with 'stealing' to the public domain would have undercut the case and I figure that a certain prosecutor would be regretting life soon enough.

Offline Trieste

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Re: Anonymous: Operation Last Resort
« Reply #61 on: January 30, 2013, 08:42:47 PM »
Trieste, I'll be honest: if citing actual facts somehow counts for you as "handwaving" and mere disagreement counts for you as "refutation," I just don't think you're engaging the conversation in good faith.

It would also be nice if you'd take the trouble not to misquote and distort what I've said.

I was summarizing my understanding of what you have been arguing. You are free to correct me, of course.

And Kythia stated facts that ran counter to your stated conclusions, which is pretty much the definition of refuting said conclusion. Um. Further, this:

The connection is that regardless of one's opinion of Anonymous in particular, your contention that "reform almost always happens from within" is just false.

... is certainly stated as a fact, but it is an opinion. The support you have provided for that opinion was countered already, for example here:

Civil Rights were passed by the US congress/government.

... which you kind of ignored. I won't guess as to why.

Your disagreement about Gandhi proves that yes, there are other instances and other exceptions, but that would be why I specified "almost always comes from within".

I can't think of a rule that doesn't have exceptions, but those exceptions do not invalidate the rule, is what I'm saying here.

And - it also kind of supports the statement that reform =/= revolution, especially when you're talking about the refinement of a section of government without completely overthrowing it, rather than overthrowing an entire government (and probably keeping parts of the old apparatus in your new government anyway, but that's a debate for another thread).

As far as good faith goes, I'm affording good faith that your arguments have some sort of logical framework behind them and that you're not just arguing to argue, so that would be incorrect, also.

Offline Cyrano Johnson

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Re: Anonymous: Operation Last Resort
« Reply #62 on: January 30, 2013, 08:52:51 PM »
Ballots..not bullets.

If you mean nonviolent reform is preferable, I agree with you. But the difference between ballots and bullets is not that ballots are "internal" reform. If someone demands that, say, a city's police department reform its practices because it's acquired a reputation for abuse of authority and police brutality, and the department resists but is eventually compelled to act by public action campaigns, the arraignment of crooked officers, and by the voting-out of politicians who sheltered bad elements in law enforcement, that outcome doesn't mean that the department in question "reformed from within." It means it was forced, by means of the ballot and public pressure, to reform from without.

(There is something I can think of as at least close to really functional "reform from within," however, which is "whistle-blowing," often a powerful method of embarrassing and reforming institutions. A whistle-blower is by definition someone who has given up on "reforming from within," but is still an insider who can expose the relevant establishment's misdeeds to public scrutiny, leveraging external media, public opinion, and institutions in their favor. The RCMP in Canada is on the verge of imploding via multiple whistle-blowers. If there's a flaw in Anonymous' gambit here, it's that most "whistle-blowers" gain credibility, and sympathy, by their intimate knowledge of the subject matter and the enormity of what they're sacrificing to oppose activities they disagree with. Anonymous is effectively threatening to "blow the whistle" from outside, which I'm not nearly as sure can be effective. But I might be wrong about that.)

Offline Cyrano Johnson

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Re: Anonymous: Operation Last Resort
« Reply #63 on: January 30, 2013, 08:58:09 PM »
I was summarizing my understanding of what you have been arguing. You are free to correct me, of course.

And you are free to actually read my posts and object specifically to something you disagree with. The exchange with Kythia contained a fairly detailed discussion of facts and context, enough for you to engage constructively with. You can still go back and do so at any time, and I will respond. What you can't do is impress me with continued avoidance of specifics, distortions of out-of-context points, and attempts to "summarize" my position as handwaving.

(EDIT: So, just for example: don't keep trying to tell me I somehow "ignored" the point about the US government passing civil rights legislation when that's something I explicitly addressed in a subsequent post and said they addressed it because the civil rights movement put it on the public agenda, not because they wanted to. It's a better use of both our time if you respond to what I've actually said.)

(FURTHER EDIT:

Quote
Your disagreement about Gandhi proves that yes, there are other instances and other exceptions, but that would be why I specified "almost always comes from within".

The bigger picture beyond three examples is worth talking about, but I'm afraid the burden of proof for "almost always" is rather on you.

I'll grant you that history does afford some spectacular examples of "reform from within": when confronted by a competing system that is better at accumulating money, power or prestige, human institutions do occasionally manage to drive successfully for internal reform, since more money, power or prestige is generally something the whole hierarchy wants. Hence the Meiji Restoration in Japan, the Counter-Reformation in the Catholic Church, the transformation of Communist-ruled China into something decidedly un-Communist.

But I can't multiply those example indefinitely. I can do so, or come close to doing so, with example of failed attempts to reform-from-within (ranging from pre-revolutionary France to the Tsarist Russia -- and then the Soviet Union -- to Qing Dynasty China to virtually all attempts in American history to have the corporation "police itself," and beyond). So, is that just a function of most of anything sucking, including internal reform attempts?

(FINAL EDIT: I was going to let this particular example in the above pass, but since Trieste has since seen fit to PM me about how all they've been seeking is clarification, I'll discuss it here:

Quote from: Trieste
And Kythia stated facts that ran counter to your stated conclusions, which is pretty much the definition of refuting said conclusion.

Actually that's not what "refuting" means. "Refuting" means that one person proves another person wrong by providing a better interpretation of the facts. It doesn't mean just disagreeing with them. That you actually don't know this creates problems for your attempts to talk about who has "refuted" whom.

I would be doing this part by PM, Trieste, but of course after PM-ing me with a nasty tirade about how I supposedly "hold discussion in contempt," you blocked any reply. Which, protip, is the sort of behaviour that actually sort of undermines an attempt to sound off on who "holds discussion in contempt." Whether you accept it or not, I did attempt to have an actual conversation with you. Too bad.
« Last Edit: January 31, 2013, 05:25:47 PM by Cyrano Johnson »

Offline Callie Del Noire

Re: Anonymous: Operation Last Resort
« Reply #64 on: January 30, 2013, 09:01:56 PM »
If you mean nonviolent reform is preferable, I agree with you. But the difference between ballots and bullets is not that ballots are "internal" reform. If someone demands that, say, a city's police department reform its practices because it's acquired a reputation for abuse of authority and police brutality, and the department resists but is eventually compelled to act by public action campaigns, the arraignment of crooked officers, and by the voting-out of politicians who sheltered bad elements in law enforcement, that outcome doesn't mean that the department in question "reformed from within." It means it was forced, by means of the ballot and public pressure, to reform from without.

(There is something I can think of as at least close to really functional "reform from within," however, which is "whistle-blowing," often a powerful method of embarrassing and reforming institutions. A whistle-blower is by definition someone who has given up on "reforming from within," but is still an insider who can expose the relevant establishment's misdeeds to public scrutiny, leveraging external media, public opinion, and institutions in their favor. The RCMP in Canada is on the verge of imploding via multiple whistle-blowers. If there's a flaw in Anonymous' gambit here, it's that most "whistle-blowers" gain credibility, and sympathy, by their intimate knowledge of the subject matter and the enormity of what they're sacrificing to oppose activities they disagree with. Anonymous is effectively threatening to "blow the whistle" from outside, which I'm not nearly as sure can be effective. But I might be wrong about that.)

The problem is down here.. in the US.. 'Whistle Blower' protections took a LOT of hits in the Bush II years. We had a lot of them rolled back and undone. The Tea Party continues to push for 'less regulation' and part of the ones that take the hits are the whistle blower protections. We've lost quite a bit in the last 12 years and look to lose more.

The first thing, in my opinion, is to have the public stop being ruled by fear. 9/11 was a MASSIVE shock to the system. Terrorism in the US is a rare thing. You can name the number of incidents on a hand or maybe two.. whereas when I lived in Ireland.. we heard/saw/got missed by some often.

I don't respect some of the things the UK does in the pursuit of justice, but I do respect that they aren't ruled by fear like we've been.  We've lost a LOT of freedoms in the last 12 years thanks to 'homeland protection' and 'justified sacrifice'.

It's crap. I said it when atrocities like the Patriot Act were passed, I said it when they were renewed and I will continue to say it till they are rolled back and our civil liberties are restored.

Offline Cyrano Johnson

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Re: Anonymous: Operation Last Resort
« Reply #65 on: January 30, 2013, 09:03:39 PM »
I can only agree with that, Callie.

Offline Shjade

Re: Anonymous: Operation Last Resort
« Reply #66 on: January 31, 2013, 01:11:02 AM »
The 1980s movie War Games and theme of "Do you want to play a game?" likely marks then in the range of 40-50 years old.

...what? I'm in my 20's and I liked Wargames. I thought they put too much of the movie in there because the reference was immediately obvious; it just made their clip unnecessarily lengthy having that whole finale with the computer in there.

But that's Anonymous: they do love their verbose drama.

The points raised are valid. I don't expect this to accomplish anything related to them.

Online Zeitgeist

Re: Anonymous: Operation Last Resort
« Reply #67 on: February 13, 2013, 10:52:50 PM »
...what? I'm in my 20's and I liked Wargames. I thought they put too much of the movie in there because the reference was immediately obvious; it just made their clip unnecessarily lengthy having that whole finale with the computer in there.

But that's Anonymous: they do love their verbose drama.

The points raised are valid. I don't expect this to accomplish anything related to them.

Granted. It's just one small piece of the pie that with other clues and references a profile could be assembled. I concede younger generations could certainly be aware of and like 'War Games'. Just saying.

Like the Una bomber released his manifesto which led not long thereafter his capture, the more information so-called Anonymous releases like this the more likely they are to be pegged.

As to the validity of their points and cause, I'm not especially curious enough to ponder. At first blush it all smells like Grandma's basement-Linux kernel-Conspiracy mumbo jumbo to me.

Offline Chris Brady

Re: Anonymous: Operation Last Resort
« Reply #68 on: February 14, 2013, 01:02:19 PM »
It's been a few weeks...   Aaaaaaaaaaaand nothing.  No great movement, no reform, just everyone truckin' along like nothing happened.

Offline Cyrano Johnson

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Re: Anonymous: Operation Last Resort
« Reply #69 on: February 21, 2013, 07:39:34 PM »
Chris, were you expecting the government to suddenly topple or something? You do realize it takes more than a couple of weeks for things like this to play out?

Operation: Last Resort appears to be ongoing.

As to Anonymous and the various parties who choose to castigate what they're doing, the Oklahoma Daily is talking sense.


Offline Trieste

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Re: Anonymous: Operation Last Resort
« Reply #70 on: February 21, 2013, 08:45:15 PM »
It's been a few weeks...   Aaaaaaaaaaaand nothing.  No great movement, no reform, just everyone truckin' along like nothing happened.

An acquaintance who is more in touch with these things than I am has mentioned, when I brought it up with him, that there is no chatter from confirmed Anonymous sources about this, and that the video is more than likely a copycat.

I expect more truckin', personally.

Offline Monfang

Re: Anonymous: Operation Last Resort
« Reply #71 on: February 22, 2013, 10:36:05 AM »
Getting back on subject.

Why doesn't Anonymous do something useful? Hacking Twitter accounts? Making threats against the Government that is trying to deal with a growing security problem with hostile nations launching cyber attacks to steal private property from not only US corporations but the US Government's military and economic secrets, basically putting our entire nation at risk on all fronts, and is looking for any solution that would stop it all together doesn't need a domestic threat that can be perceived as a terrorist threat that might make them pull the trigger on something bad. (Think SOPA was bad?)

Is there a problem with many of the laws written for an era past? Yes, aside from the Constitution, they need to be worked on. Does scaring people work? No, what does work (and we saw this with SOPA) is education. US Representatives and Senators were happy to put this in place to 'protect private citizens and corporations' which sounds like a great thing! But then the people and organizations they represent called them up and educated them on why this is bad and many of them changed their votes. Changing the opinions of those in power or just changing those in power is what drives the US Government.

The Founding Fathers built the government so that the People may put in people who will represent them and if they fail, the People can try to convince them to change or remove them from power. It was not built so a micro-minority faction of a subculture can dictate what they can or can't do at the end of a figurative gun.

Anonymous is usually called a 'hack'-tivist group. I heard them called a terrorist organization and maybe that's closer, but not a right fit ether as they haven't done the first part of the title: 'terror'. No one is honestly scared of these people. They might be worried about having their company secrets (like Coke's secret formula or the Wopper's secret sauce) leaked for their competitors to steal. But aside from that, they are more of a nusence like a bunch of neighborhood brats. And frankly, it is just going to take them egging the wrong person's house to get them in real trouble.

I really wish they did something useful. Hacking into real terrorist organizations and getting secrets for the US government. Breaking into China's internet wall and helping to connect their citizens to the outside world. Helping North Koreans get out of their country and into freedom. Or just protecting the US from cyber attacks that seek to hurt us and they would be hailed as heroes! Yet they make threats and protect criminals behind the shadows while accusing others of doing the same.

Offline Rhapsody

Re: Anonymous: Operation Last Resort
« Reply #72 on: February 22, 2013, 06:43:21 PM »
I haven't followed a good deal of this thread, but I will say something about Anonymous. They are very hit or miss with me.

Something like the USDoJ, miss.

Something like WBC or the shitstorm in Steubenville, I have to give them kudos. Especially with the rape case, because when a whole town, including the local LEOs and judges and various sundry authority figures is involved with the cover-up, where can you turn?

Offline Monfang

Re: Anonymous: Operation Last Resort
« Reply #73 on: February 22, 2013, 06:50:57 PM »
I haven't followed a good deal of this thread, but I will say something about Anonymous. They are very hit or miss with me.

Something like the USDoJ, miss.

Something like WBC or the shitstorm in Steubenville, I have to give them kudos. Especially with the rape case, because when a whole town, including the local LEOs and judges and various sundry authority figures is involved with the cover-up, where can you turn?
I am amazed. I had honestly thought they did nothing. Why can't they do this more often?

Offline Rhapsody

Re: Anonymous: Operation Last Resort
« Reply #74 on: February 22, 2013, 06:55:37 PM »
I am amazed. I had honestly thought they did nothing. Why can't they do this more often?

Nobody wants to talk about Steubenville, because it's absolutely horrifying. People first off don't want to think that their daughters or sisters or nieces or wives can be dragged from party to party to be raped while they were out cold, and they don't want to think their sons and brothers and nephews are callous and sociopathic enough to do it. Then they don't want to think that they'd be involved in a blanket of silence around the whole affair, because good, decent people don't do that. So it's easier to just not talk about it, forget it happened, hope it goes away.

This is why we need groups like Anonymous. This might never have come to light if not for them. I'm not saying everything they do is beneficial, not by a long shot. But in a few particular instances, they're quite necessary.