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Author Topic: Legend of the Five Rings Discussion  (Read 11422 times)

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Offline Pumpkin Seeds

Re: Legend of the Five Rings Discussion
« Reply #225 on: December 20, 2013, 01:58:30 PM »
I honestly don't attribute the failure to the dice.  L5R's combat system and dice system is very fluid and fast.  Plus AEG is known for having dice systems that help the plot and theme of the story.  Legend of the Five Rings is a fairly complex setting though which straddles a great many plots, styles and genres.  Being sorta Japanese, sorta fantasy, sorta political, sorta military, sorta ya da da and having only a sorta cohesive storyline over many centuries makes the game difficult to sort of nail down.  Especially when a forum game can take months just to proceed from one scene to the next and the storyline from AEG is then thrust forward a decade or so.

Offline kckolbe

Re: Legend of the Five Rings Discussion
« Reply #226 on: December 20, 2013, 09:30:25 PM »
Admittedly, I find the setting gets a bit ridiculous due to the CCG.  I generally prefer anything set in Four Winds or before, since after that it is no stop chaos.  Personally, though, I think the writing starts getting sloppy with the Spirit War. 

I agree with Pumpkin that dice are not the issue.  Situations in Rokugan require an unbiased arbiter, and time lost rolling dice is more than made up for by time spent arguing who the better duelist is.  Besides, the real threat of unplanned failure is what brings so much of the tension home.  Even little things like a minor misspeak can have significant consequences in Rokugan, and it adds a lot to the story and character creation.  I couldn't play it freeform.

Offline HairyHeretic

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Re: Legend of the Five Rings Discussion
« Reply #227 on: December 25, 2013, 07:46:36 AM »
Dice do complicate a forum based game though. If we have people scattered across the globe, one round for everyone to get their turn could possibly take days. Freeform can do away with that, but you run the risk of someone in the 'wrong' timezone getting left behind.

Offline Chris Brady

Re: Legend of the Five Rings Discussion
« Reply #228 on: December 25, 2013, 09:51:26 PM »
Admittedly, I find the setting gets a bit ridiculous due to the CCG.
The issue is that the setting is/was at the whim of the card players.  A lot of them didn't care about the lore, or used the lore to justify some really stupid decision or ideas and it's leaked over to the RPG.  Which is why I tend to stick to pre-seven thunders stuff.

Offline kckolbe

Re: Legend of the Five Rings Discussion
« Reply #229 on: December 26, 2013, 02:10:53 AM »
Even with the CCG issue, they could have spaced it out a little, maybe add a couple of years of relative calm every now and then.  From 1158 on it just seems like non stop chaos.  Also, they made the Kaeru family insignificant, which I take as a personal attack, since they were my favorite.

Offline Renegade Vile

Re: Legend of the Five Rings Discussion
« Reply #230 on: December 26, 2013, 02:23:22 AM »
Even with the CCG issue, they could have spaced it out a little, maybe add a couple of years of relative calm every now and then.  From 1158 on it just seems like non stop chaos.  Also, they made the Kaeru family insignificant, which I take as a personal attack, since they were my favorite.

Not to mention other silly consequences such as the Mantis getting penalized because a lot of their competitive players that only care about winning used the Shadow Dragon all the time (why he wasn't Loyal, I'll never know). They should never have coupled the story to the competition, but rather did some sort of story play on the side with a scheme that would only interest non-competitive players that are just there for the story. Events that only allow theme decks or that re-enact canon battles through premade decks. In that way, they can try to emulate the Scorpion last stand in the capital during the Scorpion Coup for example. Because personal and min-maxed decks aren't allowed, most of the purely competition-oriented people won't really be interested, and the damage from silly occurrences will be far more limited.

Too boot, maybe the random introduction of characters who seem slated to become important, only to be killed off one fiction later might lessen as well...

Offline Chris Brady

Re: Legend of the Five Rings Discussion
« Reply #231 on: December 26, 2013, 04:25:53 AM »
I wonder, for those of us who liked the setting, how much of it can we overlook or get past?

Personally, I admit to having issues with the whole Hitomi Moon Goddess thing.  Or that the Isawa became corrupted one and all.  Or the Crab ALIGNING themselves with the Dark One's forces (Really?  This one gets me the most, and my favourite clan is Dragon.)

Even the family swapping between clans seems a bit silly to me.

Offline kckolbe

Re: Legend of the Five Rings Discussion
« Reply #232 on: December 26, 2013, 10:56:32 AM »
Regarding the Hitomi issue, I hate everything regarding the realms and spirituality.  I thought the Isawa corruption made sense.  I doubt that ALL of them were corrupted, but the vast majority, including all noteworthy Isawa shugenja.  The Crab aligning themselves with Shadow was at least written in a way to convey the desperation.  I enjoyed reading it, so it made sense. 

As for family swapping, do you mean the Yasuki Wars?  I thought that fit the setting very well.  I wasn't crazy about the "resolution" for it, but loved the idea.

Offline Chris Brady

Re: Legend of the Five Rings Discussion
« Reply #233 on: December 26, 2013, 03:52:31 PM »
Family Swapping:  I'm talking the swinger games that had several families from Dragon to Lion, another went to the Phoenix, a couple left the Crab, and all that nonsense.

As for the Crab happily singing hands with the Shadowlands, I got the impression that they would have rather burned to the ground than suddenly switch sides and go Team Evil on everyone.

Offline kckolbe

Re: Legend of the Five Rings Discussion
« Reply #234 on: December 26, 2013, 09:34:09 PM »
Here's what I remember reading (paraphrased): The Shadowlands were getting stronger, and the Crab weaker.  The other Clans refused aid.  The Crab knew they would soon fall and the Shadowlands overrun Rokugan.  They allied with the Shadowlands for the goal of claiming the throne for the Crab, at which point they could order the Clans to help them destroy the Shadowlands.

They didn't "switch sides" as it was never intended to be more than a temporary alliance, though obviously a few members of the Crab did end up turning.

Offline Chris Brady

Re: Legend of the Five Rings Discussion
« Reply #235 on: December 26, 2013, 10:52:28 PM »
The fact of the matter is, Crab Decks did wonderfully with a couple of Shadowland cards, and Honor be damned, so they went for a military victories.  AEG, needing something, ANYTHING to justify the sudden influx of such decks (as you know, once something becomes incredibly successful, everyone else starts copying it) so they came up with that load of shenanigan.

Offline Pumpkin Seeds

Re: Legend of the Five Rings Discussion
« Reply #236 on: December 26, 2013, 11:19:27 PM »
So what, in people's opinion, would be the ideal time period to start a forum based L5R game?

Offline Chris Brady

Re: Legend of the Five Rings Discussion
« Reply #237 on: December 27, 2013, 02:49:57 AM »
Personally, before the Seven Thunders.  And then allow the players to go hog-wild with whatever they wish to do with the history.  Let them try to defeat Fu Leng if they want.

Offline Renegade Vile

Re: Legend of the Five Rings Discussion
« Reply #238 on: December 27, 2013, 05:00:28 AM »
So what, in people's opinion, would be the ideal time period to start a forum based L5R game?

I'd say either very early, perhaps pre-Scorpion coup to have a clean slate and the classic enemies intact. Or, if you don't want to exclude poor Spider clanners like me, After the war with Kali-Ma, but you diverge from the storyline beyond the basic state of Rokugan at the start of that era. Everything in between is either too chaotic to introduce characters in easily, or just so similar to the two that you may as well start there.

Offline kckolbe

Re: Legend of the Five Rings Discussion
« Reply #239 on: December 27, 2013, 06:35:15 AM »
I think it depends on the kind of game you want.  I would love a Four Winds Era where characters could each favor certain heirs, leading to some moments of cooperation and some pvp, but I could see that being very difficult.  I agree that Scorpion Clan Coup (and the chaos that followed) would be a lot of fun if no players were Scorpion (maybe one or two secret Scorpion disguised as ronin). 

The fact of the matter is, Crab Decks did wonderfully with a couple of Shadowland cards, and Honor be damned, so they went for a military victories.  AEG, needing something, ANYTHING to justify the sudden influx of such decks (as you know, once something becomes incredibly successful, everyone else starts copying it) so they came up with that load of shenanigan.

I find this very interesting, and I can see why it bothered you, knowing *why* they were doing it at the time.  For me, I still enjoyed it.  The real reason may have been shit, but I maintain that the execution made it believable for me, and Crab is my favorite Clan (sometimes Lion). 

Offline Pumpkin Seeds

Re: Legend of the Five Rings Discussion
« Reply #240 on: December 27, 2013, 06:42:09 AM »
One thing I do find is that there does seem to be a need for focus in group composition and creation.  Groups that have a little of everything tend to fragment and the game stagnates as people figure out who knows who and who hates who. 

Offline kckolbe

Re: Legend of the Five Rings Discussion
« Reply #241 on: December 27, 2013, 06:43:05 AM »
Very true.  Scorpion/Spider folks tend to be bad ideas, in my experience.

Offline Renegade Vile

Re: Legend of the Five Rings Discussion
« Reply #242 on: December 27, 2013, 10:09:08 AM »
I find it strange that Scorpion players would be a bad idea, primarily since they're the most loyal to the Empire. Sure, they are hated, but that doesn't mean other samurai will just off them on sight. Spiders on the other hand... yeah. The Empress may say: "Don't fight", but if anyone is getting their throat slashed during the night by a Scorpion, it'll be the Spider in the party.

As for party composition, that is true for every single role play out there. You always need to set some ground rules in advance to make sure people will get along, or at least maximize the odds of them not being mortal enemies.

Offline Empyrean

Re: Legend of the Five Rings Discussion
« Reply #243 on: December 27, 2013, 02:25:43 PM »
Quote
So what, in people's opinion, would be the ideal time period to start a forum based L5R game?

After the Kali-Ma invasion sounds good. Plenty of opportunities in a rebuilding Rokugan for great heroism. Although, the Thousand Years of Darkness setting seems like it might be good too, with PCs rising to become the heroes of this new world.

Offline BraveEarth

Re: Legend of the Five Rings Discussion
« Reply #244 on: December 27, 2013, 03:44:01 PM »
Personally, before the Seven Thunders.  And then allow the players to go hog-wild with whatever they wish to do with the history.  Let them try to defeat Fu Leng if they want.

You mean before the 1st Day of Thunder or the 2nd? Because the first is really early and trying to defeat Fu Leng would amount to suicide, second day I would support because you can just rewrite the Toturi Dynasty however you wish.

After the Kali-Ma invasion sounds good. Plenty of opportunities in a rebuilding Rokugan for great heroism. Although, the Thousand Years of Darkness setting seems like it might be good too, with PCs rising to become the heroes of this new world.

You could do a Scorpion Lands Shadowlands game because of the second Festering Pit, the one thing that I like about the Destroyer War. Yay Scorpion/ Crab Cooperation

Offline Pumpkin Seeds

Re: Legend of the Five Rings Discussion
« Reply #245 on: December 27, 2013, 05:05:36 PM »
Well I know the book has a passage regarding the characters being the Seven Thunders.

Offline BraveEarth

Re: Legend of the Five Rings Discussion
« Reply #246 on: December 27, 2013, 05:22:51 PM »
Imperial Histories?

Offline Pumpkin Seeds

Re: Legend of the Five Rings Discussion
« Reply #247 on: December 27, 2013, 06:56:55 PM »
Yeah the first one.

Offline HairyHeretic

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Re: Legend of the Five Rings Discussion
« Reply #248 on: December 28, 2013, 06:02:16 PM »
Very true.  Scorpion/Spider folks tend to be bad ideas, in my experience.

I've played Scorpions quite well in groups and had no issues with the other players.

Watching them try to find honourable ways to not eat my Scorpions cooking while out in the wilds provided me with a lot of entertainment though, I must admit  >:)

Offline Chris Brady

Re: Legend of the Five Rings Discussion
« Reply #249 on: December 28, 2013, 06:31:02 PM »
The issue I had with the Scorpion clan is that they knew everything.  Every secret, every dark wiggly place.  Which apparently made EVERYONE scared of them.  Which in turn gives them the entire Empire on a Plate, because they hold ALL of it hostage.  Which means they ARE the most powerful clan in all of Rokugan, which John Wick loves.  He LOVES the Scorpion clan, and it showed in 1e.

Which also turns them into mustache twirling evil villains turned overlords in every campaign I've ever seen that deals with fans of the Clan.

Which, in turn, is highly implausible to me.  Worse, the best secrets are dead secrets.  Someone, somewhere, would have found an excuse to gather up his clan buddies (like Lion and Crab gathering for a Saturday Night Swordfight) and crushed the Scorpion, because they know too much.  Even if they didn't.

If the Scorpions were turned into spy-masters that served every clan, even in a mercenary capacity, as opposed to hoarders of secrets that answer to 'no one' save the emperor, then I could accept that.  Instead, they've become the Empire.  My Scorpions work for every clan, like the Shinobi of old, and yes, they DO hoard secrets, but the other Clans believe that the Scorpion are simply master spies for hire.  Except like ALL clans, they never willingly betray the Empire.

Also, if I had been in the same game as you, Hairy, my Crab and my Dragon would have eaten your cooking, without pause or hesitation.  Reason 1) The crew knows where you sleep.  2) If my character dies or just gets sick eating YOUR food, who do you think will be blamed for it?  Even if it's just a seriously honesty accidentally cooking mistake.  So really, them being overly paranoid about not eating a Scorpion's cooking is foolish and frankly unnecessary.  My Crab, the disgustingly honest prick that he was, would have pointed that out between bites of stew.