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Author Topic: The World of Darkness Thread  (Read 11120 times)

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Offline Beorning

Re: The World of Darkness Thread
« Reply #75 on: December 07, 2012, 11:42:00 AM »
Hmmm. Fair points.

Okay, as we're discussing OWoD: I have a Mage question. Basically: do the mages realize that the reality is fluid? That it's shaped by human belief? If so, then how come they are also so attached to their paradigms? It was a contradiction I could never work my head around...

Especially when it came to Sons of Ether. On one hand, they are mages. On another hand, they consider themselves the scientists, create their own scientific theories etc. But how can you create a scientific theory of anything, if you also happen to know that laws of physics are, ultimately, mostly fluid..?

Offline Callie Del Noire

Re: The World of Darkness Thread
« Reply #76 on: December 07, 2012, 12:00:36 PM »
They have a working paradigm that they don't want to give up. Within THEIR definition of reality they are gods. If thy can convince enough sleepers of the validity of their beliefs, they 'win'. That is what the technocracy was trying to do, build the Sleepers perception of reality to back their paradigm without having too many 'waking up'

Offline Beorning

Re: The World of Darkness Thread
« Reply #77 on: December 07, 2012, 12:29:36 PM »
But that means that they *don't* know that the reality is fluid, right? Because if they knew, that they would also know that paradigms are equally valid (or false)...

Offline TheGlyphstone

Re: The World of Darkness Thread
« Reply #78 on: December 07, 2012, 12:31:19 PM »
But that means that they *don't* know that the reality is fluid, right? Because if they knew, that they would also know that paradigms are equally valid (or false)...

Arrogance. They know reality is fluid, but that just means they are right and everyone else's paradigms are wrong if they work hard enough. It just means they have to put more effort into convincing everyone else that they're right, in order to swing reality around to their point of view.

Offline Beorning

Re: The World of Darkness Thread
« Reply #79 on: December 07, 2012, 01:01:08 PM »
Agh! I don't understand  :-(

Let's take the Celestial Chorus, for instance. Their paradigm states that magic comes from God... so, do they really *believe* in God? If so, how can they also accept that the reality is fluid and subject to change by human belief..?

Offline Geeklet

Re: The World of Darkness Thread
« Reply #80 on: December 07, 2012, 01:08:00 PM »
Basically, its that the way a person actually learns to do magic is the only way it works for them, because they inherently believe their way is right. While other mages have different ways of doing it, a mage believes his way is more correct than anyone elses, so participating in magic he believes to be inferior, results in inferior magic. It all comes back to arrogance. Reality is shaped by belief. And they believe that this is the only way they should perform magic. Thus the world allows them to perform in such a way.

Offline Silverfyre

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Re: The World of Darkness Thread
« Reply #81 on: December 07, 2012, 01:12:33 PM »
Geeklet has the right of it.  Well said!

Offline Callie Del Noire

Re: The World of Darkness Thread
« Reply #82 on: December 07, 2012, 01:30:55 PM »
Agh! I don't understand  :-(

Let's take the Celestial Chorus, for instance. Their paradigm states that magic comes from God... so, do they really *believe* in God? If so, how can they also accept that the reality is fluid and subject to change by human belief..?

The major sin of the the Technocracy..and the Traditions to a lesser extent, is hubris.

They all think their way is BEST.

In fact in the 'end game' scenario.. everyone in the magical traditions lose as the sleeping mass of humanity.. DOESN'T AWAKEN at all. It's like a perpetual boring Wendsday afternoon. The world ended..not with a bang.. but a 'meh' as the sleeping power of humanity rolled over and went deeper into sleep.

Offline Beorning

Re: The World of Darkness Thread
« Reply #83 on: December 07, 2012, 01:40:40 PM »
I don't know, it's still weird to me. How can a mage believe that this or that paradigm is right, if - at the same time - he knows that it all comes down to belief? Coming back to the Celestial Chorus example: how can they believe that magic comes from God, if they also know that magic is basically a process of warping the reality with belief and God may not even be real?

Back when I was reading Mage for the first time, I rationalized it the way that the mages don't know that they reality warpers. In my interpretation, the Celestial Chorus really believed that their magic was miracles etc. But that didn't fit with the core materials, where the mages seem to know about paradigms, the relative nature of reality etc...

Offline Avis habilis

Re: The World of Darkness Thread
« Reply #84 on: December 07, 2012, 01:57:25 PM »
Never underestimate the power of doublethink - to convince yourself that a proposition is objectively true despite being actively engaged in inventing it from whole cloth at the same time.

To all the parties involved it doesn't matter & no one really cares whether their concept of reality is absolutely correct; only that it's dominant.

Offline Braioch

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Re: The World of Darkness Thread
« Reply #85 on: December 12, 2012, 12:59:11 AM »
Got my Wraith book in the mail today ^_^

Offline Lilias

Re: The World of Darkness Thread
« Reply #86 on: December 12, 2012, 02:07:14 AM »
Got my Wraith book in the mail today ^_^

Enjoy! (Knowing you, I have no doubt you will. ;))

Offline Braioch

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Re: The World of Darkness Thread
« Reply #87 on: December 12, 2012, 02:15:55 AM »
I would more, if I wasn't distracted by E and it's constant distraction giving ways ::)

Offline Lilias

Re: The World of Darkness Thread
« Reply #88 on: December 12, 2012, 03:57:44 AM »
The book isn't going anywhere... Oblivion and Transcendence can wait foreverrrrrrrrrr! :P

Offline Braioch

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Re: The World of Darkness Thread
« Reply #89 on: December 12, 2012, 04:54:26 AM »
The book isn't going anywhere... Oblivion and Transcendence can wait foreverrrrrrrrrr! :P

It's good for smoke breaks and for when I'm eating or something, and for when I finally get to bed, I always read before I go to bed. Was LotR, but now gonna be Oblivion.

Gotta dig up my Demon book too....Mage is with my friend...

Good lord, in a year or so I'm going to have a collection if I really do order just a couple of books each time I get paid :P

Offline Lilias

Re: The World of Darkness Thread
« Reply #90 on: December 12, 2012, 04:58:02 AM »
That's how libraries are built. ;) Not to mention that supplements are significantly cheaper than corebooks.

Offline Braioch

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Re: The World of Darkness Thread
« Reply #91 on: December 12, 2012, 05:13:52 AM »
Well getting used books in great condition for half or more what they were when they were first put out is really cheap.

Have I mentioned how much I love Amazon?

I only am collecting them because I love the story and setting, not like I have anyone to play with around here. Hell if I did, they'd probably want me to GM it, and...-sigh- I dun wanna!

:P

Offline Lilias

Re: The World of Darkness Thread
« Reply #92 on: December 12, 2012, 05:16:21 AM »
I haven't broken out the dice in over 6 years, and still I got more books after I stopped playing than before. There's some cracking reading material there, not just game mechanics. That's particularly true for Wraith; Charnel Houses of Europe is perhaps the best game supplement out there, bar none.

Offline Braioch

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Re: The World of Darkness Thread
« Reply #93 on: December 12, 2012, 05:21:04 AM »
The game as struck me as more for roleplaying than for mechanics. Plus mechanics can be fixed or made up on the spot if need be, and what little GMing I did with it, it didn't seem to bad. Kinks, yes, but nothing that couldn't be worked around.

Though I will say their combat mechanics were rather bad.

Offline Chris Brady

Re: The World of Darkness Thread
« Reply #94 on: December 12, 2012, 02:34:45 PM »
The game as struck me as more for roleplaying than for mechanics. Plus mechanics can be fixed or made up on the spot if need be, and what little GMing I did with it, it didn't seem to bad. Kinks, yes, but nothing that couldn't be worked around.

Though I will say their combat mechanics were rather bad.
That's because White Wolf's system is still in the Rein-Hagen days of 'social' over 'combat', where the only game book at the time was Vampire, and if you had to fight, you did something wrong.

Also, one of the things people have always 'complained' about Wraith was how beautifully written and evocative it was, but no one knew what to do with it.  There never seemed to be a 'goal' to reach in Wraith...

Offline Beorning

Re: The World of Darkness Thread
« Reply #95 on: December 12, 2012, 03:55:14 PM »
I must admit that is / was my problem with Vampire (both Masquarade and Requiem). I'm not sure how to GM it, as no stories come to my mind immediately...

On another note, as there seems to be a lack of enthusiasm for NWoD on this thread, I'll defend it and say that this system is, IMHO, a very good design. And NWoD Vampire has its upsides -  I like the separation of lineage and politics with clans and covenants. It really makes sense that vampires from the same clan can have different political goals...

Offline LunarSage

Re: The World of Darkness Thread
« Reply #96 on: December 12, 2012, 04:07:12 PM »
The NWoD system is undoubtedly awesome in design... but Requiem has absolutely no background.  No history.  Call me crazy, but I really liked the metaplot in the oWoD.

Offline Chris Brady

Re: The World of Darkness Thread
« Reply #97 on: December 12, 2012, 04:12:04 PM »
One thing I noticed about nWoD is that it gets a lot of mechanical praise, but the actual fluff seems to be lacking compared to the oWoD, where people more or less ignored the rules and focused on the story.

Offline Pumpkin Seeds

Re: The World of Darkness Thread
« Reply #98 on: December 12, 2012, 08:04:32 PM »
So sad to me that Demon was my favorite line but seemed to be the forgotten step child of White Wolf.  Truth though is Demon didn't seem to fit with the others at all in terms of story.  So far as NWoD goes, they got the story so much better for Fae than OWoD ever did.

Offline Chris Brady

Re: The World of Darkness Thread
« Reply #99 on: December 13, 2012, 01:41:01 AM »
So sad to me that Demon was my favorite line but seemed to be the forgotten step child of White Wolf.  Truth though is Demon didn't seem to fit with the others at all in terms of story.  So far as NWoD goes, they got the story so much better for Fae than OWoD ever did.
Which according to the fans of the nWoD, is the best story out of a line of mediocre fluff.  I'm not really into it, to be honest.  It's cool that it's still around.  Despite White Wolf's best efforts it's seems.