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Author Topic: The World of Darkness Thread  (Read 11100 times)

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Offline Silverfyre

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Re: The World of Darkness Thread
« Reply #50 on: December 06, 2012, 07:28:33 PM »
I like the background in nWoD Werewolf, except maybe the Pure and their idiotic mentality, or that the Spirits hate YOU.  But the more personal focus, the almost gang mentality is really compelling.

The issue with nWoD Werewolves is mechanical.

The Core Book Cop will WASTE, as in COMPLETELY butcher an entire group of basic Werewolves.  The basic NPC cop template is so badass that you're baby Werewolf is nothing to him/her/it.

Then again, White Wolf has ALWAYS forced it's players to fill in the holes when it comes to their system, fooling a lot of players into thinking that 'less' is better.  Nor do they really bother with balance between their archetypes, again, dropping it all on the GM's lap.

White Wolf has a reputation among the local gamer crews (who still play both versions, as well as several LARP groups) as great fluff, bad mechanics.  And I'll agree with that.

I was enraptured by the old Apocalypse game, even collecting the adventures, before realizing that running those meant sidelining my PCs.  I hate Vampires, always have, I've never found the appeal of human shaped mosquito parasites interesting, but the ladies love them, for whatever odd reason.

More rules, FYI, are NOT explicitly better, but 'better' rules help manage the POTENTIAL stress running the system CAN cause.  Not everyone can think up of a ruling, or ignore it on the spot like I can, after all.  (As a GM, I specialize in on-the-fly improvisation.  It's worked for a good part of 26 years as a system gamer, so I hope I got some of it right.  Namely cuz of the six regular groups I've had, not ONE of them have not figured out a way to destroy and plans I might have.  Lot's of fun, keeps me on my toes.)

There are a few things I want to touch on here. I respect your opinion but you do tend to generalize a lot here.

 White Wolf made a very tight system with NWoD or so my own crew and most of the MES thinks. They do well with mechanics and fluff but yeah, like any company, they have made mistakes. The idea of having the PCs fill in and let the ST put their own NPCs in place is great if you ask me. Something like the Forgotten Realms filled every place with high level heroes and NPCs, making the PCs seem useless. WW did well by excluding such a practice. They do give you template tools if you need them so they hardly leave you hanging. Vampire, by the by, is hardly only loved by the ladies. Their sales and mainly male gaming crowd reflects that. There might be more female gamers in that genre than say DnD but it is still very male heavy.

Offline Beorning

Re: The World of Darkness Thread
« Reply #51 on: December 06, 2012, 07:36:28 PM »
Oh, oh, I have a Vampire-related question for more experienced Requiem players.

Basically, I was just reading the Requiem core rulebook right now and I noticed something: am I mistaken, or can vampires avoid killing people, if they pay attention to it?

I mean, they usually have control on how much blood they drink. They risk losing control only when in a feeding frenzy... and feeding frenzies can be easily avoided by feeding regularly. So... vampires can be completely harmless, right? So, they aren't really that monstrous as they're made out to be...

Offline LunarSage

Re: The World of Darkness Thread
« Reply #52 on: December 06, 2012, 07:39:45 PM »
Oh, oh, I have a Vampire-related question for more experienced Requiem players.

Basically, I was just reading the Requiem core rulebook right now and I noticed something: am I mistaken, or can vampires avoid killing people, if they pay attention to it?

I mean, they usually have control on how much blood they drink. They risk losing control only when in a feeding frenzy... and feeding frenzies can be easily avoided by feeding regularly. So... vampires can be completely harmless, right? So, they aren't really that monstrous as they're made out to be...

It was that way in the oWoD as well.  It's just that once a vampire has experienced sucking a mortal dry of blood, it can become very addicting.  There are no system mechanics for this, but you're encouraged to RP it.

The Sabbat tended not to care and had huge blood orgy feasts where mortals were hung from the ceiling and blood was plentiful enough that the vampires could gorge themselves.

Offline Silverfyre

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Re: The World of Darkness Thread
« Reply #53 on: December 06, 2012, 07:46:18 PM »
It was that way in the oWoD as well.  It's just that once a vampire has experienced sucking a mortal dry of blood, it can become very addicting.  There are no system mechanics for this, but you're encouraged to RP it.

The Sabbat tended not to care and had huge blood orgy feasts where mortals were hung from the ceiling and blood was plentiful enough that the vampires could gorge themselves.


Lunar has the right of it.  The Sabbat puts a religious reverence on being a vampire (well, for most of the low Humanity and Paths ones anyways) so their wild, debauched blood feasts are done in the trappings of religious ceremony.  If role played and STed right, it can be amazing.

Offline SkynetTopic starter

Re: The World of Darkness Thread
« Reply #54 on: December 06, 2012, 08:08:31 PM »
There was a sort of pseudo-religious factor to the Camarilla as well, about how the Kindred were the descendants of the Biblical Caine and all that.  But from what I got from the Bloodlines video game, it didn't seem popular except as a cautionary tale or piece of folklore.

Other than the game I haven't really gotten much info on the Old WoD.  From what it seems to me, the Camarilla are sort of metaphorical in their "cursed status," as in the condition is like a punishment.  The Sabbat are literalists: they believe that they're descendants of Caine, and that the antideluvians are real; thus they view their state as an actual Biblical curse.
« Last Edit: December 06, 2012, 08:11:26 PM by Skynet »

Offline Silverfyre

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Re: The World of Darkness Thread
« Reply #55 on: December 06, 2012, 08:22:03 PM »
The Camarilla did not publicly endorse the whole Caine mythos while the Sabbat reveled in it, save for perhaps some of the neonates and the Ba'hari.  Some elders of the Camarilla did have some faith in it, at least according to some of the canonical material.  Otherwise, yes, the Camarilla seen it as a myth and nothing more.  The Camarilla, as a whole, did not see the vampiric state as "cursed status" for the most part but rather seen themselves as hiding from humanity for survival due to the fires of the Inquisition and lording over all of humanity.  Neat, classic premise. 

Offline LunarSage

Re: The World of Darkness Thread
« Reply #56 on: December 06, 2012, 08:26:56 PM »
Heh, yeah.  The newly formed Camarilla and the anarch Cainites who would become the Sabbat had a bit of a... disagreement at the Convention of Thorns.

No surprise, considering the elders had been treating their childer like absolute dirt.

Offline Silverfyre

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Re: The World of Darkness Thread
« Reply #57 on: December 06, 2012, 08:35:38 PM »
"The Inquisition is at the door!"

"Sire, what shall we do?!"

"Why don't you go see what they want while I Earth Meld into the ground?  Wake me up when they leave."

"..."

Offline LunarSage

Re: The World of Darkness Thread
« Reply #58 on: December 06, 2012, 08:36:20 PM »
*chuckles*

Exactly.

Offline SkynetTopic starter

Re: The World of Darkness Thread
« Reply #59 on: December 06, 2012, 08:53:17 PM »
So, um, how did the Anarchs get their name?  Did a bunch of Camarilla Kindred get tired of the pyramid scheme and say "hey, wouldn't it be great if nobody governed us?"

Offline Chris Brady

Re: The World of Darkness Thread
« Reply #60 on: December 06, 2012, 08:58:16 PM »
There are a few things I want to touch on here. I respect your opinion but you do tend to generalize a lot here.

 White Wolf made a very tight system with NWoD or so my own crew and most of the MES thinks. They do well with mechanics and fluff but yeah, like any company, they have made mistakes. The idea of having the PCs fill in and let the ST put their own NPCs in place is great if you ask me. Something like the Forgotten Realms filled every place with high level heroes and NPCs, making the PCs seem useless. WW did well by excluding such a practice. They do give you template tools if you need them so they hardly leave you hanging. Vampire, by the by, is hardly only loved by the ladies. Their sales and mainly male gaming crowd reflects that. There might be more female gamers in that genre than say DnD but it is still very male heavy.

Silverfyre, I did say that local crews, not all of them around the world.  There is a reason that WW is still in business, despite their weird sales acts of late (most puchasers might not realized this, but at one point WW said they were PDF only.  Then retracted saying MAYBE a couple of books a year.  Then saying business as usual.  Then going BACK to saying only a few books.  Then business as usual.  PDF only...  So one and so forth.  It's been an odd couple of years for them on the Distributor's side.)

And for some games, like Vampire and The Lost, the basic nWoD is perfect for it, because they're conflict, but not combat, centric.  But the moment a real 'fight' comes long, and depending on whether or not the advantages are used it can either end up as death nibbling in one round (due to multiple attacks per combat advantage) or in 4 rounds.

Now, this is how the core book tends to work without house rules, which NO ONE and I mean NO SINGLE roleplayer in the world does.  This is White Room Analysis, which has it's place, but rarely ever lasts in a real game session.  Just by reading the rules YOUR way, you've house ruled the game.  Simply because you, the Player (ST or PC) has an idea and ideal you want, and the game will come close, but will not match it.  So whether or not you realize it, you will change what you want.

And THE one thing WW teaches most of it's player, either intentionally or not is to make up fixes and/or rules on the spot.  The excel at this, and honestly, I thank White Wolf for this (as well as D&D 3.0 for a single blurb in the book about not being limited to the feats as written) it helped me realize that the Rules are not the Be All and End All of gaming.  It also showed me what limits I have for adjudication, modification and simple hand waving.  Knowing my limits and improving them is a good thing in my book.

Offline LunarSage

Re: The World of Darkness Thread
« Reply #61 on: December 06, 2012, 09:01:14 PM »
So, um, how did the Anarchs get their name?  Did a bunch of Camarilla Kindred get tired of the pyramid scheme and say "hey, wouldn't it be great if nobody governed us?"

Pretty much.

Though they are still governed by "Barons".  But it's not the same as a Prince... really.   ::)

Offline TheGlyphstone

Re: The World of Darkness Thread
« Reply #62 on: December 06, 2012, 10:19:09 PM »
Heh, yeah.  The newly formed Camarilla and the anarch Cainites who would become the Sabbat had a bit of a... disagreement at the Convention of Thorns.

No surprise, considering the elders had been treating their childer like absolute dirt.

And by 'disagreement' we mean 'Sascha Vykos'. ;D

Offline SkynetTopic starter

Re: The World of Darkness Thread
« Reply #63 on: December 07, 2012, 12:29:14 AM »
Before the Camarilla got founded, what the closest equivalent to a universal governing body of Kindred?  Or were they all split up into disparate regions with little to no contact with each other?

Offline Callie Del Noire

Re: The World of Darkness Thread
« Reply #64 on: December 07, 2012, 12:37:37 AM »
Before the Camarilla got founded, what the closest equivalent to a universal governing body of Kindred?  Or were they all split up into disparate regions with little to no contact with each other?

Each 'Prince' ruled his own region.. varied on how he/she hid or didn't.. the Masquerade really didn't pop up till the risk of exposure started up.. it's in the books somewhere. (Can't find my V20 right now)

Offline Silverfyre

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Re: The World of Darkness Thread
« Reply #65 on: December 07, 2012, 05:50:35 AM »
There really wasn't any universal governing body of Kindred, save for the respect and upholding of the Traditions or the "Laws of Caine" if you will.  The elders ruled and the younger generations followed their lead; that was how it was supposed to happen but of course, was not always the case. Each Prince held reign over their own domains.  It's all in the "Dark Ages" books.

Offline LunarSage

Re: The World of Darkness Thread
« Reply #66 on: December 07, 2012, 06:38:41 AM »
And by 'disagreement' we mean 'Sascha Vykos'. ;D

I love Sascha Vykos.  It's one of the Sabbat's badasses.  Though I do like the guy so old he doesn't have a clan that he can recall (he's probably a Malk, though) in CotN.  Elimilech the Twice Damned.  Embrace: Ruth 1:3

Offline Silverfyre

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Re: The World of Darkness Thread
« Reply #67 on: December 07, 2012, 06:41:48 AM »
Oh, I love the Children of the Night sourcebook solely because of that character, Elimilech. 

Offline Seress

Re: The World of Darkness Thread
« Reply #68 on: December 07, 2012, 08:24:32 AM »
Been awhile since I played oWoD now but I had so much fun when I started around -99. Went through vampire, werwolf, mage, hunter and ended up playing changeling for a long time. Think maybe it's time to take some of the books off the shelf and dust them off. :)

Also, this is still one of my favorite video games ever:


I never actually got to play this game myself, but looked over my husbands shoulder when he played it and was chased by a huge werewolf. Mentioned it to him now and he went "Hmm, should see if I can install it again. Great game."  :D

Offline Braioch

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Re: The World of Darkness Thread
« Reply #69 on: December 07, 2012, 08:34:48 AM »
Noting a few of these posts, I'll throw in my two cents...

On feeding, if I remember correctly, feeding didn't have a high risk of frenzy unless the person (vampire :P) in question was starving (low blood pool) otherwise it was simplified to being uneventful. Otherwise they had their hands full trying to prevent themselves from gorging much like a starved person would at a buffet, except tenfold worse.

The Caine mythos in the modern era from what I seen was held with a lot of cynicism and disbelief as that pretty much was the mindset of the modern day vampire. Elders and different vampires (generally scholarly types) believed, but the Camarilla never publicly endorsed it, as a matter of fact, they supported it being nothing more than a fable.

But yes, before the Camarilla came along, it was about which lord ruled over what region (or lady for that matter, even though it was in the Dark Ages, gender stop meaning as much to the undead. The book even drives home the point that any vampire who wants to survive will have to get over their own gender bias quickly) they happened to be commanding. Of course the clans were all different too, the Brujah were actually sort of...regal, rather than a spread out pack of troublemaking rebels without a cause. The Assassimites were in their glory days back then (I do so have a fondness for them) and were feared rather universally, even the Baali hated them for that fear. The Nosferatu were little more than sniveling wretches whom could easily be slain on sight depending on the lord/ladies whim, but still as good for information as ever.

^_^

My Wraith book will be here soon, I do so love Amazon

Offline LunarSage

Re: The World of Darkness Thread
« Reply #70 on: December 07, 2012, 08:43:04 AM »
But yes, before the Camarilla came along, it was about which lord ruled over what region (or lady for that matter, even though it was in the Dark Ages, gender stop meaning as much to the undead. The book even drives home the point that any vampire who wants to survive will have to get over their own gender bias quickly) they happened to be commanding.

I did want to point out though that despite the anti gender bias that the Kindred had in those days, there was a big section in one of the DA books called "Whose breastplate is this?" that talked about the trouble that a vampiric woman who wanted to take up arms as a warrior would have when dealing with mortals, as well as the fact that they would need to have their armor and swords specially made for the different build of a woman.  Armor was generally made with the idea of a man's center of gravity at his shoulders, whereas armor for a woman needed to take into account that her center of gravity is at her hips.  They did a great job of avoiding being sexist, but still managed to explain some very interesting things that most people didn't think about.

I can copy the section and share it here if anyone would like.  It was good stuff.

Offline Silverfyre

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Re: The World of Darkness Thread
« Reply #71 on: December 07, 2012, 09:08:52 AM »
Mm, I remember that section now!  They did a great job with it.

Offline Beorning

Re: The World of Darkness Thread
« Reply #72 on: December 07, 2012, 11:07:09 AM »
Regarding the feeding: if the vampires don't have to kill their victims, then why are they considered monsters? They can be totally harmless - and they should be, considering that they were all human once... What makes them lose their humanity?

And why do they keep hiding from humans? Can't they step forward and explain that they have a unique feeding condition that's not their own fault?

Offline TheGlyphstone

Re: The World of Darkness Thread
« Reply #73 on: December 07, 2012, 11:19:40 AM »
Regarding the feeding: if the vampires don't have to kill their victims, then why are they considered monsters? They can be totally harmless - and they should be, considering that they were all human once... What makes them lose their humanity?

And why do they keep hiding from humans? Can't they step forward and explain that they have a unique feeding condition that's not their own fault?

Because can doesn't mean they will. The Beast has a mind of its own, and it's not always willing to be ruled by the vampire...there's ways to frenzy other than simply being hungry - being hassled by a panhandler on the street is a weak frenzy provocation, for instance. A vampire can fight his beast for a long time,but eventually he'll slip; one shredded mortal corpse later, he might be sorry, or he might not be, and the next accidental kill will trouble him less, and less, until he's killing deliberately without a shred of remorse. It's only a matter of time, and time is something a vampire has plenty of.

Online Geeklet

Re: The World of Darkness Thread
« Reply #74 on: December 07, 2012, 11:27:19 AM »
And why do they keep hiding from humans? Can't they step forward and explain that they have a unique feeding condition that's not their own fault?

This isn't so much a vampire problem as it is a human problem. People fear the unknown. And gather enough people in fear, they start to lash out. Ever heard the phrase "Beware stupid people in large numbers?" Yeah, its kind of like that. Humans vastly outnumber vampires, and even though a single vampire is more powerful than a single human, there is strength in numbers, and the vampires know this. Hell, any supernatural creature knows this. That is why they don't step forward. Because even if something different steps forward and can prove it is not harmful, there will always be people distrustful of it because its not "normal" and therefore will act out against it.